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Radio ReOrient 13.10: Countering Islamophobia with the Runnymede Trust, with Shabna Begum, hosted by Claudia Radiven and Amina Easat Daas
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Marshall Poe
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Ryan Reynolds
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Dr. Amina Esat Das
Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer.
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Dr. Shabna Begum
Offer for first three months only.
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Chella Ward
Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy, taxes and fees extra.
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Marshall Poe
See mintmobile.com hello everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most important importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
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Claudia Radovan
Assalamu Alaikum listeners and welcome back to another episode of Radio Reorient. In this episode we were joined by Shabna Begum to discuss her work with the Ronnie Mead Foundation.
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Dr. Amina Esat Das
Ronnie Mead Trust is a British race, equality and civil rights think tank founded as an independent source for generating intelligence for a multi ethnic Britain through research network building, leading debate and policy engagement. Trust began operations in 1968, the year of two major events in the global and British race in global and British race relations, the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. And Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech.
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Chella Ward
Dr. Shabna Begum joined the Runnymede Trust in 2021 as Athena researcher and became Director of Research before being appointed as CEO in May 2024. Before Runnymede, she was a teacher for over two decades teaching politics and sociology in London comprehensive secondary schools. She's also the author of From Sillet to Spitalfields, Bengali Squatters in 1970s East London, published in 2023.
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Saeed Khan
Jumping I spoke with our hosts about the rise of the far right in the uk, anti immigration sentiment and the ever increasing problem of Islamophobia within the UK and globally. So without further ado, let's listen in.
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Dr. Amina Esat Das
Hello and Assalamu Alaikum listeners. Thank you for joining us today for another episode of Radio Reorient. Today we're joined by Shabna Vegan, the Runnymu Trust. Your hosts are myself, Dr. Amina Re set Das and Dr. Claudia Radovan. Welcome Shabna. It's such a pleasure to have you with us here today. I was wondering if we could perhaps begin our conversation talking a little bit about your role in Runnymede and what you do and also how you came to work with Runnymede.
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Dr. Shabna Begum
Thanks Amina. And thank you Claudia for inviting me and salaam alaikum to your listeners as well. So I guess in terms of my arrival in my current role at Runnymede, so I am the chief executive of Runnymede Trust, which is obviously one of the UK's kind of leading racial justice think tanks. And in terms of my arrival, I arrived four years ago now and I came in as a researcher at the time and was involved in a specific piece of work that we were doing which was called Broken Ladders. Well it became the report called Broken Ladders which was looking at women of color in the workplace. And I arrived to provide some research support to that. And that began my kind of route through Runnymede. So I arrived as a researcher, went on to become head of research, Director of Research before kind of a year and a half ago applying and then taking the permanent role as chief Exec. So I've had quite a short journey within the organization. Organization but quite a kind of a swift one through the organization as well. But prior to that I think it's worth saying that I was a teacher for 23 years. So I taught in secondary schools and taught in sixth form, actually in the sixth form attached to a secondary school and taught politics and sociology and Key Stage 3 Humanities. So I spent the bulk of my professional career actually not in think tanks and not doing the kind of work that I do now. So I took quite a significant kind of professional detour to arrive at Runnymede. And the kind of bridging thing was that I did a PhD quite recently as well. So I decided to do a PhD in my mid-40s when I was interested in my parents migration history and stories and that that kind of very particular and personal interest was pursued through the, through a Ph.D. and that, that that kind of bridged my journey from teaching into the research and Runnymede Trust role currently.
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Claudia Radovan
It's a really incredible professional background and I can imagine that that gives you such a variety of perspectives on the kind of work that Ronnie Mead is sort of quite well known for. The significant legacy of anti racist work, particularly Ronnie Mead had a significant role in recognizing Islamophobia as early as 1997. And if, you know, if we think that the UK is struggling right now with recognizing that Islamophobia is not only a real thing but quite a substantial problem in 1997 that that must have been all the more acute and obviously there's been the Newer report in 2017. Given your role in Runnymede, what do you, what do you feel has changed and developed during that period, you know, from the, from the late 90s to sort the more contemporary the now, how do you feel things have developed and changed?
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Dr. Shabna Begum
So yeah, so you're absolutely right that running New Trust has kind of pioneered some of the work around Islamophobia here in the UK and that term Islamophobia was, is kind of, we're credited with really socializing that term here in the UK in that first report that you cited in 1997. And I think you're right that that first reports that in a very different space. I don't necessarily think that actually it was harder back then in many ways. I think that the actually things have kind of intensified and worsened in more complicated ways, maybe, but maybe that's the kind of presentist kind of lens, always thinking that what's happening now is more important or more significant. But I think that if I kind of trace through, and actually we did a report in 2024 as well on Islamophobia, so we've had three major reports, reports. And so I guess if I kind of situate each of these reports, they do reflect what was happening to Muslim communities at each moment. So in 1997, the emphasis of that first report, again, was this, addressing the challenge that Muslims, and in particular the representation of Muslim communities in the media was deeply problematic, that there were kind of. There was a very caricatured and very narrow kind of representation of Muslims and the kind of cultural, kind of deficit ideologies, the kind of Orientalist view of Muslims. And so the 1997 report was very much speaking to that kind of wider political media space and saying that actually we needed to really think about how Muslims were represented, what opportunities and thinking about belonging and how that undermined a sense of belonging to Muslim communities. And that was in the 1997 report courts. By 2017, we've had nine, 11, we've had seven, seven here in the UK and we are operating in a very, very different climate now. So in 2017, now we have a Muslim community that has been subjected to surveillance and is now kind of subjected to the narratives where we are securitized and seen as extremists and terrorists and deeply violent. And so the 2017 report is speaking to a very different kind of political moment. You know, are lots of lines that run through that are the same, but there's a very different kind of political agenda which is curated and defined by those. Those other experiences and those other events. So the 2017 report very much is beginning to now advocate not just for kind of how do we think about belonging and change in the wider political environment. 2017 is saying that actually we've had a whole suite of different kind of legislation that's been brought in, terrorism acts that have been brought in, and they have actively harmed Muslim communities. And so 2017 is beginning to advocate for a definition of Islamophobia and advocates for a specific definition of Islamophobia in that report. And that also prompts a whole political moment, actually, because then we have the all party parliamentary group that convene, they take kind of, I think over 200 submissions of evidence and then they developed their own kind of Islamophobia definition, which is the one that has been adopted by various different actors. But we know that we're still in a space where that hasn't been adopted. And then very quickly, the 2024 report that we did kind of shifted away from the definition question. So by 2024, this is the report that I was kind of. I was. I might have been interim or permanent, but I was very much kind of involved in this report. And I was at that time less interested in the definition and more interested in the experience of what was happening to Muslims in the uk, particularly with kind of highlighting the links between what was happening in Gaza and how that impacted on Muslims here in the uk. So that report was looking at the intensification of Islamophobia, but very much linking those international kind of the dehumanization of Palestinians and to Palestinian racism and how that influenced and shaped Muslim experience here in the uk.
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Dr. Amina Esat Das
Thank you for sharing that. I just wanted to probe a little bit further on. You mentioned the APPG definition of Islamophobia. I'm kind of thinking about the current context where we're seeing perhaps yet another round of debates around the definition of Islamophobia and what will be accepted in the UK context. And at the moment, at the time of recording, it feels like the indications are that the APP definition that has been so widely accepted by political parties, local councils, organizations and so on and so forth, looks like there's going to be a move away from this for the government at the very least, towards perhaps a bigger focus on hatred and hostility and arguably obscuring some of the bigger structural dimensions that you point to, particularly in relation to the 2017 report. Do you think perhaps this changing the definition or debates around what Islamophobia is at this sort of government level pose more of a risk to Muslims at the moment? How would you frame that in the current context?
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Dr. Shabna Begum
I guess yes, you're right in terms of. So we've seen a revival of the conversation around the definition, because I think that the Labour Party in opposition had accepted the APPG definition, but when they came into government, when not as certain that they wanted to kind of advocate for that as government, so they opened a consultation which was through a working group, an independent working group that was commissioned and they invited submissions of evidence. We did submit evidence to that. I think that it's probably fair to say that it was one of the most interesting consultations that we participated in. Participated in because we have participated. We've submitted 17 consultations in a year and a half since government have. The Labour Party had become government. But this was the most narrow and the most restrictive in terms of how we could interact and give evidence. There was literally a character count in terms of how much you could write in response to some of these really quite complex and challenging questions. So that in itself felt kind of deeply unhelpful way to approach what was what has been a long running debate and is obviously kind of requires an ability to communicate and to kind of reach the complexity of the, of the discussions. But I think that the government are currently sitting on the report that that working group have produced. But as you say, I think that the kind of the leaks that have come out or the kind of whispers that we've heard around it have suggested that they are moving away from the term Islamophobia and they want to focus more on anti Muslim hostility. I think we were very, very clear in our submission that if we begin to talk about anti Muslim hostility or anti Muslim hatred, then we kind of just think about racism in this very direct and intentional sense and it's very individual and it can be seen in a bruise or it can be heard in a word that your core record or, you know, things that are said to you. Right. And we know that actually whilst that is deeply harmful and that's happening and that absolutely needs to be challenged and addressed, the roots of that kind of violence are systemic and structural. They are kind of enabled by the kind of policy narratives, the media frameworks that enable and give permission for that. So for us it's really, really important to not kind of locate racism and Islamophobia purely in the individual and intentional and, and, and to think about it as hatred. That said, though, I also someone who, you know, as a person who is Muslim, who's connected to Muslim communities, I'm also really committed to making sure that actually we don't stay locked into this debate about the definition. And so we will kind of deal with the definition when it comes out and be able to have a conversation around that. But I think that my position and I think the running me trust position is very much that we refuse to stay in the conversation around definitions and we want to move into what does it mean to protect Muslim communities here in the uk. So however the definition comes out. We will manage that, but we will move the conversation forward. Because otherwise I think that we. It's kind of, yeah, it's an abdication of my responsibility, of our responsibility. If we don't engage and go forward in the conversation. Conversation and stay trapped, as you note, 1997 to now kind of. We're talking about what, 30 years almost of debating what's the definition. And I don't think we've got time for that anymore.
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Claudia Radovan
I think that's a really important point. And certainly throughout this season on Radio Rioren, it's come up quite a lot that the debate around the definition, when there was already a widely accepted definition, has become something of a sideshow, a distraction. And as you rightly said, these debates around changing it to hatred and hostility, it distracts away from the biggest structural, systemic, institutional problems of Islamophobia and certainly from some of our conversations this season, the global nature of it as well. If you can reduce it down to an individual act, then you can ignore how widespread it is, how systemic. I think this is also a really interesting point in relation. If we look at the relationship between Islamophobia and particular discourses, particularly in the legal and criminal sphere. The opportunity to read a report recently from a particular institution that focuses on matters of law about how counter terror policy, for example, can be looked at. And there was a lot of conversation about the impact on societal relations particularly. And I thought that was very interesting, especially with the kind of work Ronnie Mead has done, Even in the 2024 report, looking at the impact of the media. If we think about the impact of political discourses as well the kind of rhetoric that politicians are using and thinking about that, how do you feel all this relates to the kind of wave, the reinvigoration of far right sentiment regarding immigration, associating Muslims with terrorism, the grooming gangs debate, which is constantly recycling and a lot of that kind of dialogue and the conversations that create this ultimate enemy of Muslims in the uk.
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Dr. Shabna Begum
Yeah, I think that's a really important point and it speaks to why it is so important because I, you know, as a person who values definitions and knows that language matters, I know language matters. I know definitions matter because they help to define and obviously kind of visibilize what it is that we're talking about. That said, the experiences of summer 2024 also tell us that actually if, if we're trapped in that conversation about definition and whether we like the term phobia attached to it or not, you know, we can go over and over those debates They've been had for a really long time. But we have a serious and urgent issue and the, the far right racist riots of summer 2024 for speak to what you described, Claudia, in terms of that real mix and muddle of all these different forms of hatred and racism. Right, because the, the, the riots that started in Southport in 2024 were based on this idea that the perpetrator of the violence of that hideous, horrible event with those children, that it was someone of asylum status who was potentially a Muslim. And so you saw this mix and muddle of migration status and this person potentially being Muslim. He was neither in the end. But the point is that that was the trigger that it was that that was circulating on kind of in the, in, in kind of the online space. And that became the trigger for the violence. And we know that violence. Then what targeted Muslim communities in Southport, the mosque. It targeted the Muslim cemeteries. And so you had this very quite direct attack on Muslim settled Muslim communities, but you also had the attacks that were much more widespread, right, that it wasn't just Muslims, it was hotels that's housing asylum seekers or people, sorry, seeking asylum in this country that were set on fire. And then you also had just ordinary, random people of color. I remember being horrified. I really actively try to avoid social media at the time because I'm just one of those people that can't witness any violence. It just really troubles me. But I remember seeing just one particular clip of a, a black guy walking through a park and him being kind of surrounded by people, and it was completely shocking. It was so. It kind of really, it upset me so much to think of someone just going about their ordinary business in broad daylight and to suddenly have that space become so hostile. And so for us at Runnymede Trust, we have always spoken on these different forms of racism and the need for solidarity because I think, and that's where I think that we sit differently to other organizations. So we've been involved in lots of conversations with the Muslim civil society within faith sector organizations around definitions, what's the activity around what we do and what can we collectively do and so on. And then we're also kind of part of the racial justice space where kind of people speak on racism. I guess we kind of straddled both in that sense, because actually we see Islamophobia as a form of racism. And so for us, it's a very straightforward kind of mission for us that actually different forms of racism have their very different articulations. They kind of focus on particular racialized tropes around a specific group. We know of that kind of the intersectional kind of nature of that, the gendered lens or all sorts of variations. But fundamentally there is a logic here that actually all of our communities experience racism and there needs to be solidarity across that piece. And I think that those racist riots last year, the kind of both the trigger, but then the indiscriminate nature of them and how they spilled out also kind of speaks to that need as well.
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Dr. Amina Esat Das
Absolutely. I think it's really important they're kind of thinking about the interpersonal manifestations that perhaps some of this definitional work would like us to focus on, but also the very interrelated nature of the types of racism that we're witnessing in the UK context and arguably sort of further afield and sort of thinking about global Islamophobia, sort of how do we address this problem and what we're seeing in the UK and how that that might well be a setting, setting the tone, sort of serving as a barometer for the global context. How do we address the growing problem of Islamophobia and indeed the associated racisms with it in this sort of broader global context? Thinking about Gaza, Palestine, China, Myanmar and.
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Dr. Shabna Begum
So on, I think it's really difficult. Right. Because I think that on the one hand each of us, we operate within a particular ecosystem. We have our kind of mission and we have our kind of remit. And so for the runnymute Trust, we definitely are a UK based kind of racial justice charity and think tank. And that report that we did in 2024 went beyond what we normally do and went to kind of make the international links. But that's actually something that we're increasing doing in our work, across all of our work. So before I kind of answer that question directly, one of the other things that for example show increasingly the need to make those global connections is that we, we, we traditionally have focused on poverty here in the UK and looked at why is it, you know, the levels of poverty experienced by certain communities of color, we've kind of more recently flipped that around to look at. Well actually if some communities don't have enough, then who has too much? Because there's another part of that and they're not kind of direct just to estimate simple two sides of the coin. But there's a kind of a way of kind of looking at this. So we've looked at, kind of begun to look at more at wealth and we did that in our Color of Money reports. But then even when you speak to that actually wealth doesn't sit within our kind of borders. Wealth is globally linked and it has global links in terms of both how the global system, economic system works, but historical, historically as well. The, the kind of historical archive, the baggage of empire and how that kind of is, is very much still persistent in our current structures. So our work around kind of poverty has gone from poverty to wealth to wealth in that global context. And we published a report recently around reparations because the argument is that not only have we not addressed the historical kind of extraction of wealth which has created the current context, but we are ignoring the fact that those histories sit in the current infrastructure which, which still protect and hoard wealth for certain groups and deprive wealth from others. And so that global context is much more kind of present in that work. The global context is also present in our climate justice work that actually again, we might look at air pollution experienced by groups here in a particular kind of borough in London. But actually we have to understand that in the much broader context of for example, is it Hurricane Melissa and the kind of the terrible, the devastating impact it had on Jamaica that might have happened in Jamaica and in the Caribbean, but actually what responsibility does Britain have? And I think that that speaks coming back to the question that you've asked Islamophobia. If we go back kind of right the way to the kind of post 911 context and the clash of civilizations and that kind of whole thesis, this idea that we have a global enemy, it's not just a domestic enemy, but Muslims are a global enemy. They are a threat to the kind of Western civilization that's got a long history it. But it's very, very active and animated in the current context as well. So I think that making sure that we make visible those links between the local to the domestic and then to the global is really an important part of, of our work and has increasingly become an important part of our work going forward. What it does though is it makes it also more challenging for us. Right, because then, and therefore collaboration has to relies now on a much increased network of actors and that's more challenging. But I think there's also opportunities in that as well.
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Claudia Radovan
I think, you know, that's a really good point made particularly about the global impacts, the historical impacts. I suppose to finish off a conversation that I've no doubt we could carry this on for hours thinking about the three of us here present. You know, we've all been in the sphere of academia, you've taught at six forms and at secondary level and now you work in with Ronnie Mead doing the incredible work that they do. What do you feel people could be doing about Islamophobia? Not just, not so much at an organizational level but as individuals. What do you feel could be an effective way to challenge Islamophobia?
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Dr. Shabna Begum
I think people have to be alert to it. I think that currently we just live in a political environment now where Islamophobia has become so normalized. It is so normalized to talk about Asian grooming, gangs and Asian and basically be speaking about Muslim men. It is so normalized to talk about kind of Islam in a way that basically says that we are culturally deficient. And that has become almost an accepted logic. And so I think actually all of us are subjected to that, even us as Muslims, right. So I, I've got two children, I've got a 15 year old and a 17 year old and I'm, I, you know, I, I, I check in with them sometimes to kind of feel like it's, ask them, oh, what do you think? And they are bombarded by kind of messaging that's all around them that is telling them that Muslims are a threat, we're culturally deficient, we are ignorant, we are a danger to women, we are kind of, you know, there are so many horrible messages around who we are. And so I think that there is a real response to responsibility on all of us to check ourselves because actually it's, it's really easy to absorb these things because we, it's such a monotonous diet of it. So I think that it's really important that we all, each of us are checking ourselves, checking ourselves in terms of kind of are we speaking on these issues in a way that understands the intersectionality of the fact that I am a Muslim woman who doesn't wear the hijab. But I mean you will experience life very differently as a Muslim woman and very differently to the, the, the, the black Muslim woman that I was speaking to yesterday versus the Pakistani man who is kind of constantly being described as this predatory theft threat. I think there's a real responsibility on all of us to appreciate the, the kind of nuances of our experiences and to be kind of checking in on that. I also think that for non Muslims as well, I think it's really important for people to do that kind of like self educating and what am I perpetuating? What have I accepted as normal and what is it that I don't challenge in everyday conversations because it's just become part of the, the kind of background noise that has been normalized so I think at that individual level, there is something about resisting the, the intellectual creep that has normalized Islamophobia and doing that actively and doing that kind of vocally in our circle. But I also think that it's really, really important. You know, I speak to, I have been speaking to so many different people around the definition and what goes forward. I feel like the Muslim community is not one community. We have many, very, very many different kind of actors and assets within the ecosystem. I do think it's really important that we move the conversation forward and we don't go kind of are not just tied to the definition. That is what will happen this next phase. The government will release a definition at some point and then we have to make a decision as to whether we are going to remain trapped in that conversation or whether we're going to say we like it or don't like it or whatever we say, but we're moving on to the next step. And that is really what I would like to see in terms of the response to the definition as well.
- [31:33]
Dr. Amina Esat Das
Thank you, Shabna. And I think, as Claudia said, that really echoes a recurrent theme and conversations we've been having on the podcast of late, that perhaps we don't need to get caught up in this busy work and that there's real work to be done in challenging the normalization and trivialization of Islamophobia and whether, as you quite rightly point out, that's our own internalization or our own kind of perpetuation to broader sort of allies, networks and challenging structures that exist around us. But I think we're going to have to wrap up there. I feel like we could keep going, keep talking about this for such a long time. I just want to thank you again so much for coming on, Shabna. It's been a really interesting conversation. I felt like we've learned a lot about your work and your background and sort of how you come to this. It's a real pleasure to have you. Thank you again, listeners, for joining us on this episode of Radio Reorient. We'll hopefully catch you for another episode.
- [32:29]
Claudia Radovan
You're listening to Radio Reorient, the Decolonial podcast in partnership with the New Books Network. This is radio exploring the Islamosphere and navigating the post Western. How should we study the things that we study after the critique of Orientalism? Now let's discuss what we've heard with.
- [32:50]
Saeed Khan
Saeed Khan, Hiza Miya Ward and Claudia Radovan.
- [32:54]
Chella Ward
I thought that was a really interesting episode of Radio Reorient. Not least because Dr. Begum is someone who is absolutely rooted in questions around community and how communities respond to racism and forms of racism like Islamophobia. I mean, she's someone who draws a lot on her background in teaching to think about how communities define Islamophobia. And what that really made me reflect on was the lack of sense involved in the government's current project to redefine the idea of Islamophobia. You know, the, this, this new working group that is going to produce a new definition of Islamophobia without using the word Islamophobia. Right. They're going to speak instead about anti Muslim sentiment. And we also hear various other groups talking about anti Muslim hatred. And we've talked about this before on Radio Reorient. And one of the things that we've always said about it is that this is an attempt to make it more difficult to understand the systemic and structural effects of Islamophobia. So to turn it into. Into something that is interpersonal, like hatred. So to start talking about it only in terms of hate crime or aggression on the street or calling names or tearing off hijabs, all these kinds of interpersonal hate crimes that we know about. But what that obviously does is it strips Islamophobia of its understanding as a kind of structural racism. So the way that it manifests in housing, in access to education, in fair access to medical care, you know, those kinds of structural racisms that we know about from our increased understanding of structural racism that organizations like the runnymede Trust have been working on, you know, for decades, to try to help us to understand that racism, you know, was not just the disgusting individuals making monkey noises at footballers, it was the system that enabled those things to happen as well as enabled all the other kinds of structural racism. So I think the Readymade trust is sort of perfectly placed to understand what we're losing if we accept anti Muslim hatred or anti Muslim sentiment instead of Islamophobia. But I also think what was interesting from that conversation is the importance of how communities define terms. And this goes to the heart of how words make meaning, right? Because words don't make meaning because those meanings are dictated by government, working groups or committees. Words make meaning because communities use those words in particular kinds of ways that make those words meaningful. And Islamophobia, you know, like it or lump it. Islamophobia is the term that Muslim communities have been using now for decades to describe the structural oppression that they face. So I think it's really important, you know, to be Reminded that at the end of the day it will be Muslims, insha' Allah, who define Islamophobia. You know, it will be a question of a community speaking about the oppression that it faces. It will not be, you know, whichever Islamophobe the government have put it as the head of a committee who will dictate how that works. So that's what I thought was really interesting about this conversation, was the importance of community and community definition coming out of there.
- [36:01]
Dr. Amina Esat Das
Teller I think that's exactly, I guess what Dr. Begum was touching on, that she makes the quote, what does it mean to protect Muslim communities here in the uk? And I think that's the key element. One of the other things I thought was quite useful and what she described as moving beyond that interpersonal and thinking about the structural, but also when we're engaging with government in terms of defining Islamophobia, that the terms of reference are already too restrictive. It's almost like a game that can't be won. And I think you're absolutely right that we do need to put more empathy, emphasis on the way in which communities understand this and as Dr. Begum said, how Muslim communities can be protected from the harms that this causes and what we can do in terms of solidarity movements to challenge this form of racism. And I think it really touches on other episodes that we've heard on radio Reorient talking about the potential busy work that this is doing and not really allowing for real challenge and real action on the ground.
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Saeed Khan
I mean, it's. It's so farcical that I mean, governments would never consider bringing other people from other groups in to define a term that then applies to a suspect group. I mean, I don't remember there being a consensus recruited for, for example, the IHRA definition of anti Semitism or other definitions of anti Semitism or even to define the contours of magic. But it seems as though the Muslim community always has to be subjected to others explaining us. And I'm not sure what the mechanisms are to push back on that. I was recently at a conference and somebody well intended broached the topic, again, why the term Islamophobia? And this is a member of the Muslim community. So I think that the challenge that you're speaking about is quite real. And it made me wonder that are we spending in the community toontic gymnastics to come down to a term, as if they feel as though it's a magic bullet to then rid us of all of these various sins. I think that there are people within the Muslim community who feel that we had a more precise term, somehow the other anti Muslim hatred. Not that I'm endorsing that as the term would be then a panacea for things. And so I think it requires a little bit more education for the community to realize not so much the term, it's what are the manifestations of that term, which are rather broad, which are rather pernicious and moving, I would argue, without being too alarmist, into the existential. As far throughout level, I think there's.
- [38:56]
Claudia Radovan
There was a lot that we discussed with Dr. Begum that really resonated not just around the Islamophobia definition, but as you say, specifically about the various manifestations. And it reminded me of an article that I saw recently that was talking about Akhila Ahmed's work with the British Muslim Trust. And this idea of a gap closing between hate speech and in person and online. It made me think that there's. I don't. I don't think there's been that much of a gap. I think that gap is quite overstated. I think people feel very comfortable using Islamophobic language and behaviors in person. And I think that that idea of the gap between the in person and the online ignores the structural as well the institutional. And I think that, you know, we're seeing this constant shift, this deflection from looking at Islamophobia from the state. And if you take that out of the UK context as well, you know, if we look at countries like France and other countries in Europe, it's exacerbated even further. It almost gives the state carte blanche to carry on behaving in an abhorrent way. What we're seeing at the level of society. For me, that that's filtered down this focus that, you know, it makes it look like the government is doing something about a problem that has come from them.
- [40:26]
Chella Ward
At the end of the day, I think you're right. I think there is something about that term hatred that's sort of exonerating the state, because how can a state hate somebody, right? Hating is something humans do. So I think you're absolutely right that, that that's the big danger here, that we risk losing if we lose the term Islamophobia. I think we could see very clearly from this conversation and also from the EP episode with Shabna Begum, exactly what the work is that we have to do to define Islamophobia or to, to make use of that existing definition of Islamophobia in order to, you know, to do that work. That you were talking about, Saeed, that kind of community work to make sure that Muslims, you know, and all of those who can be Muslimized, because, of course, Islamophobia does not affect only Muslims are equipped with the tools that they need to to stand against this kind of structural oppression. But we could talk, I think, for a very long time about that project. It's certainly one that we've touched on in multiple episodes of Radio Reorient this season. Unfortunately, we're out of time. So let me just say a huge thank you to our guest, Shabna Begum, for joining us for this episode. This has been an episode of Radio Reorient. Your hosts have been Claudia Radovan, Aminah, Esat Das, Saeed Khan, and me, Chella Ward. We hope, insha' Allah, you'll join us next time for another episode of Radio Reorient. For now, let me say assalamu alaikum.
- [42:05]
Dr. Shabna Begum
Sam.