← New Books Network
New Books Network
Raymond J. McKoski, "David Davis, Abraham Lincoln's Favorite Judge" (U Illinois Press, 2025)
00:57:47
Loading summary
Transcript46 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast, or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:07]
B
Hello, everyone, and welcome to New Books and Biography, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. I'm Mark Klobus, and today I'm speaking with Raymond J. McCoskey, author of the book David Abraham Lincoln's Favorite Judge Ray. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:23]
C
Mark, thank you, and thanks for inviting me.
- [01:26]
B
Well, thanks for agreeing to be on our show. I was wondering if you could start us off by telling our listeners something about yourself.
- [01:33]
C
Sure. I'm a retired state court judge from the trial court from the very northeastern corner of Illinois, about 10 miles south of the Wisconsin line and about 10 miles west of Lake Michigan. I was a judge there for 26 years, covered a lot of different kinds of civil and criminal cases. I retired in 2010, pretty long ago now. And for the last 15 years, I've been serving as an adjunct professor at the University of Illinois Chicago School of Law, also in Chicago, teaching classes in legal ethics and evidence and appellate advocacy, and a bunch of things. And I'm sure you agree, the greatest part of that is the interaction with the students. I love interacting with the students, and that's why I've done it so long.
- [02:25]
B
I know exactly what you mean.
- [02:27]
C
I think you only can know if you're actually in there in the class or teaching the class. It's a great experience. I'm glad I had the opportunity to do that. I have written for the last 40 years almost about legal and judicial ethics, law review articles mainly, but one book on judicial ethics previously, and that led me into my research on legal ethics and judicial ethics into a little bit about Judge David Davis, because under today's standards, he violated every rule of judicial ethics in the book, but still maintained his reputation for impartiality. So I combined my interest in judicial ethics and my interest in David Davis to do some real, but I think pretty thorough research and reading of his letters to produce the book.
- [03:24]
B
That's one of the things that really stood out for me as I was reading your book, is how you are making an argument not just that by our standards today, David Davis is doing all these things that today are a real. No, no. But that setting that aside, he was by our standards today in a lot of other ways and definitely by the standards of his date. He had this fantastic reputation for impartiality. And I thought it was really interesting how you both frame his. You examine who he is from today's perspective, but you also consider him very much within the context of his time, which is not always something that's easy to recover to fully understand the differing values of the era.
- [04:11]
C
That's exactly right. It's exactly one of the points I was trying to get across in the book, comparing how judges were judged or evaluated in the middle 19th century and how judges are evaluated now. And back then you were evaluated on what you did in court and you could do anything you wanted outside of court, politics, charitable activities, whatever. Today that's changed a little bit. And judges are judged by what they do outside of court. That might give the appearance of impartiality. The standards have changed. And so I did talk about that a little bit in the book.
- [04:49]
B
And that to me makes this something that I really wasn't expecting when I read it, which is a relevant Study of a 19th century Supreme Court justice. You would think that with the intervening passage of time that while the decisions are certainly enforced, that the person and the conduct on the bench would be not quite as relevant. And yet you show that there's a lot to be found in David Davis that really helps us to understand today our own judiciary.
- [05:20]
C
You. I agree 100%. It not only surprised you the relevance. I think it surprised my acquisition editor, who also commented on the same thing. There is a lot of relevance, I mean, even specific things that David Davis, for one of his opinion, was trashed by the media because his opinion didn't help one side. Sort of like what happens today.
- [05:48]
B
So what led you to undertake a book on David Davis? It is the thing that's interesting about it is that it is a biography and yet at the same time it's not a traditional biography. What led you first of all to undertake David Davis and also what led you to adopt a particular focus that you did?
- [06:05]
C
The actual impetus for the book. Like I had mentioned, I had done a little research on David Davis. Not much. My wife and I, long time ago, we're visiting the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum in Springfield, Illinois. We were heading back, which is about a four hour drive to Northeast Illinois and it was before TripAdvisor or things like that. So I said to my wife, when you look in the guidebook, is there someplace we can stop and visit on the way back home in historical site? So she went through the book and she said, well, about what I can find is David Davis Mansion in Bloomington. I said, I know a tiny bit about David Davis. Can you do any better than that? I asked her, okay. So she suggested I look at the book to see if I could find something better. We went to the David Davis Mansion. From the first I stepped in there and the first words out of the docent's mouth, I just became fascinated by this individual, his, his sort of rough childhood, which you wouldn't expect. From that to getting a law degree, having a pillow fight with Abraham Lincoln and masterminding his nomination as a dark horse in 1860 for president, to serving on the U.S. senate. I was fascinated by the guy. And when we left the mansion, that's when I began in earnest my reading of his letters, some journals that from some of his contemporaries that talked about him, some of the secondary literature. So it was that visit and a great dot who instilled this real interest in David Davis in me. That's what kicked it off. And you're absolutely right. This biography is some ways not in a traditional sense of a biography. I do talk about his whole life, but I concentrate on certain aspects. Number one, David Davis's absolutely essential contribution to Abraham Lincoln's political rise. From the Senate races that Lincoln tried to get into the US Senate, to the nomination for presidency, to the general election campaign. That's one of the focuses. And as a necessary part of that, I do go into David Davis and Abraham Lincoln's relationship, which has basically been ignored by a lot of the literature. The literature, other books and articles either say David Davis was a great friend of Lincoln, or they say he Wasn't much of a friend of Lincoln. And they don't go into any analysis of how they reach their conclusion. So I wanted to do that. Beside the political and personal aspect, I wanted to talk about, like you mentioned already, Mark, his impartiality. The man described himself as a person of fixed opinions, and he certainly was. Certain people he liked, certain he didn't. He. He bad mouthed Democrats all the time, worked for Republicans most of the time. All these secondary cues make you think this is not an impartial judge. But he was an impartial judge and he proved that he was recognized to be that, and that's provable. So that had sort of been ignored a little bit too. And I wanted to hone in on. All right. Other people have described him as impartial. Let's go through the evidence and see was he impartial? And how can we prove that he was impartial? So my book is focused on the political aspect and the impartiality aspect. There is another biography of David Davis written by Willard King, a Chicago lawyer, in 1960. And so I also tried to fill in some of the gaps or answer some of the questions that Willard King left unanswered in his book. So those were my two things I would describe as non traditional. Number one, focus on two points, not his whole life equally, and answering some of the questions that his only other biographer left open.
- [10:08]
B
I do want to get into those parts of the book that you focus on, but first, could you give us a bit of an overview of Davis's life before we dig more into the details of what was the context of his life and what did he do over the course of it?
- [10:25]
C
Very broadly speaking, from his youth is what interested me. You would think that when he was born in 1850, 1815, he was about six years younger than Abraham Lincoln. When he was born in 1815, his life would have been pretty easy because his father was a medical doctor, had a great medical practice going on in Maryland. His mother's family owned a plantation in Maryland and were very well off. And you would think he would have a good start in life. Unfortunately for David, his father died eight months before young David Davis was born. And so the. For the first five years of his life, David lived with his mother and his maternal grandparents on the plantation. When he was five years old, his mother remarried and remarried a Franklin Betts, who was, quote unquote, a book seller. I'm not sure he ever sold any books, but he was not well off financially and had five children of his own with David's mother and really didn't have time or inclination to do much for David. So little David was shuffled between relatives sent to live with his father's brother in Annapolis for most of the time. Would come back home sometimes. And then at 13 years of age little David was put on a stagecoach, sent off to a college Kenyan college in the middle of nowhere in the middle of Ohio to sort of fend for himself for the next four years. And he. He worked his way through the college was under construction at the time. Only basement was built. And so he helped build the buildings. He worked the farm and did all right for himself and came back. Then when he graduated college got a job with a law firm in Massachusetts probably with his stepfather's help. And David recognized that was a law clerk. Became a lawyer. Decided to head out to Illinois to make his way in the real world as a lawyer in Illinois to shortcut it a little bit. He was successful as a lawyer. Read it. Met Abraham Lincoln. Was Abraham Lincoln's strongest political backer as they work together on the circuit in your profession and attended political events together. David Davis ran for a couple of minor offices in Illinois then worked on Abraham Lincoln's two Senate campaigns both unsuccessful. Pulled off a miracle as somebody said it before me at the convention. Another good book I might and got the nomination for Lincoln. Worked hard in the general campaign. Was appointed by Lincoln to The Supreme Court. U.S. supreme Court. Although he wasn't Lincoln's first choice on the first two openings Lincoln appointed for. Got tired of the Supreme Court retired got appointed to the United States Senate. David Davis was then chosen to be president pro temporary when James Garfield was assassinated and spent the rest of his professional life as a US Senator. A long story and I'm sorry for that but all of this compacted into this gentleman's life and I like I.
- [14:02]
B
Didn'T think One of the things I think I really like about that summary that you described is how he really does straddle those two worlds. And in a way that whereas nowadays we do talk more about that separation as you explain it the book that was the norm back then that people crossed over in ways that they didn't think twice about. And one of the things that really stands out in terms of that argument is how it's not just as a judge that you identify this impartiality that he has but you see it in politics as well where in the tail end of his career when people have all these reasons by which to judge him he's chosen as president Pro tem of the Senate, which was, as you explain, a bipartisan choice.
- [14:52]
C
Yes, absolutely. His Senate career. I don't go into a lot of detail because it's not one of the two purposes of my book, but it's so fascinating I couldn't help myself from including some of it at the time he was chosen as a senator in 1877, senators were appointed. As you know, Senators were appointed by the state legislatures. The 17th Amendment changed that. And U.S. senators were appointed, were elected by popular vote. But back then he was appointed by the legislators in Illinois House of Representatives and Senate. And he was appointed, although he spent his whole career as a Republican at that time. In 1877, he was appointed by all the Democrats and a few independents voting for him in the Illinois General Assembly. No Republican voted for him. He became a senator anyway and went to the Senate on the Democrats back, sat on the Republican side of the Senate and refused to attend either caucus. Fast forward to 1881 when James Garfield was assassinated. Chester Arthur, the Vice President, became President. And so they needed a president pro tem of the Senate. And who gets. Who do all the Republicans in the Senate back to be the President pro Tem? David Davis. Not a single Republican in the Illinois House voted for him to become Senator. All Democrats did. When he becomes president pro tem in the Senate, he's elected by all the Republicans. And even more than that, or beside that, the person that David Davis beat in the Illinois General assembly in 1877 for the Senate seat was John Logan, the Republican in 1881. Who's the one who wants the honor to escort David Davis to the President pro tem tem's chair? John Logan, the guy he beat whatever six years before, four years before. I mean, could this happen today? Elected by all Democrats, chosen to be president pro tem by all Republicans. And the guy you beat wants to escort you and start the clapping for you when you sit in the President pro tem's chair. I'm not sure this could happen today.
- [17:18]
B
And the other part of that, of course, is that when he's chosen for the Senate in 1877, it precludes him from serving on the Electoral Commission that year that decided who was going to win the presidency between Rutherford Hayes and Samuel Tilden and that he had been appointed to that because he was seen as neither Republican nor Democrat. He was going to be, in essence, the swing vote on whatever decision they reached.
- [17:45]
C
Exactly right. With one thing I'll add. Election. Rutherford B. Hayes and Samuel Tillman close. Tilden led in electoral Votes. Tilden only needed one more vote. He had 184 electoral votes. No, he needed one more 19, 190, 185 to win. Rutherford Hayes, the Republican, was way behind in electoral votes. But there were 20 contested electoral votes from Southern states. South Carolina, Florida, Louisiana, and a couple from Oregon. So Tilden didn't have 185 electoral votes. So what the Congress decides to do is set up an electoral commission who will decide who gets these 20 votes. If Rutherford B. Hayes gets all 20, then he's going to have 185. If Sam Tilden gets one of the 20 contested votes, he'll have 185. So they're going to pick this electoral commission and they decide there's going to be five Supreme Court Justices, there's going to be five members of the House of Representatives and five Senators. Everybody's going to vote their party line is the thought and basis for that, except the one Supreme Court justice who will be picked by the original four Supreme Court Justices. And everybody assumes you're absolutely right. David Davis is going to be picked for this fifth position of Supreme Court representation. Everybody's going to vote their party line. He's going to vote what he thinks is right as an independent, and he will control the election. Now, they never actually got around to appointing David Davis to this because when David Davis to the commission, when David Davis was selected for the U.S. senate, the legislation creating this electoral commission for Hayes until then hadn't passed yet. But everybody assumed. And the only reason the Republicans and Democrats agreed to this electoral Commission, because Davis would be there and he'd be independent. And everybody's got a chance then. So the legislation hadn't passed creating the electoral commission. Davis was selected for the U.S. senate. And so he said, I can't serve now. I'm not a Supreme Court justice anymore. You got to pick somebody else. They did. And Hayes won. Hayes got all 20 contested votes. The Republican Republican justice was picked to take what was going to be David Davis's place. Another unusual kind of story.
- [20:32]
B
Very Limu Emu and Doug, here we.
- [20:36]
A
Have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds of with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [20:50]
C
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [20:53]
A
Cut the camera.
- [20:54]
C
They see us.
- [20:55]
B
Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.
- [21:05]
D
The holidays have arrived at the Home Depot and we're here to help bring the excitement with decor for every part of your home. Check out our wide assortment of easy to assemble pre lit trees so you can spend less time setting up and more time celebrating. And bring your holiday spirit outdoors with unique decor like one of our Santa inflatables. Whatever your style, find the right pieces at the right prices this holiday season at the Home Depot.
- [21:36]
B
I'd like to take us back now to talking about your first major focus upon Davis career, which is his role in Lincoln's Senate campaigns. And I was wondering if you could perhaps preface that a bit about the relationship he had with Lincoln prior to that, because that really is at the heart of your book. You have this great examination of Davis's impartiality, but it is also on another level, a study of that friendship. It's one that while you don't make it the focus of it, it really stands out how so much of Davis's career is shaped by this very special bond that he has with this person that he has this very intimate association with in terms of they travel together, they sometimes are adversaries and other times they're partners and really is. So how does Davis go from being this attorney and this person who just knows this guy from the circuit to he is sitting here actively trying to get him into important political positions?
- [22:45]
C
A special bond between the two, an intimate bond is a good way to put it. And it developed initially on the circuit. At first, from about 1837 to 1848 when Davis became a judge, they were both lawyers on the circuit, which mean traveling twice a year for three months a year, once in the spring and once in the fall to the 14 counties where the judge at that time, Sam Treat, would hold court. And Davis and Lincoln were lawyers and they traveled the whole circuit. There were other lawyers that traveled the circuit too. But as David Davis said, spending six months out of the year with some people creates a special relationship for the advantage of both. And that happened here. Davis, David Davis and Lincoln, although they looked totally different, ball and thin. And Davis, he started out about five, 11 and a little more than 200 pounds, but then he put on another 100 pounds at a minimum and was pretty heavy. They looked different, but they shared a lot of common traits which drew them together on the circuit more than it drew Davis or Lincoln to other, other people, starting with neither of them drank. Now Lincoln didn't drink, period. David Davis would drink some. He wrote a letter to his wife after Lincoln was nominated for president saying he was down in Springfield Celebrating with Lincoln. And they had seven different kinds of wine. David Davis, that he only. He only sampled two, though he tells his wife. So what's that meaning sample three or four. But David, he did drink a little bit, but not like the hard drinkers on the circuit. And so Lincoln was drawn to him. They both had the same kind of theories on cases. They loved mediation and arbitration. They were. Both had sterling honesty and it's something I wish I went more into in the book going to it a little bit. They were both sterling, honest, exhibited sterling honesty throughout their career. They also like to do things together. They like to discuss books together. They like to take walks together. They would go to church together. They were drawn together. The clerk of the Champaign county court described Davis and Lincoln as constant companions. And I think that's pretty accurate. And. And they shared tragedies and also beside their professions. When David Davis's new baby died, his wife Sarah couldn't be at home alone. She joined David Davis on the circuit in his buggy. And her son George came also. And he rode with Lincoln for the two months. Didn't ride with somebody else. He didn't share the responsibility. It was Abraham Lincoln who took George around. They referred cases to each other, like you said, they tried cases together, they tried cases against each other. They were living in the same room. Now, a lot of the lawyers shared beds. Davis was too big. It wasn't his authority as a judge to get him his single bed. It was. He was too big to fit in a bet with anybody else. But they were in the same room. They ate dinner together, they ate breakfast together, they ate lunch together. When Lincoln was in Court in McLean county, that's Davis's county, Bolington, he would stay at Davis's house. They just had this special relationship of trust that grew as they were on the circuit, practicing law. Now also when they were on the circuit, they were going to all these political events together. They were both Whigs, they were both Henry Clay Whigs. And they went to all these events together, which helped also to draw them closer together. So you're right before the first Senate race in 1854, 1855, they had been working together as lawyers, sharing personal stories, staying in each other's houses for 10 years.
- [27:06]
B
And so they have this relationship and it puts Davis in Lincoln's orbit. But as you explain when you're describing Lincoln's two U.S. senate campaigns in the 1850s, Davis is oftentimes having to deal with some of Lincoln's other friends who are not offering, always providing the best possible service to Lincoln. There's that sense that you can see it in the way you present Davis that he's always chafing at the fact that he could be doing this so much better than someone like say Joshua Speed or someone else who's trying to position himself as Lincoln's campaign manager.
- [27:45]
C
He certainly did believe that he could do it better than anyone else. He had a lot of self confidence, which maybe is the best way to put it. And there's no doubt he was convinced he could do it better than anybody else. And there was some basis for that. The first senate race elected again by the state legislators. Stephen Logan, Lincoln's second law partner and a sharp lawyer, was the head of the floor fight for Lincoln. And I'm not saying Link would won if somebody else or David Davis would have been leading the floor fight. But Stephen Logan was a great lawyer but a very poor politician. And Lincoln's letters describe Logan as a poor politician. Davis's letters describe him as a poor politician. Lincoln said that when Stephen Logan, his partner, former partner, ran to be on the Illinois Supreme Court, that he ran the worst campaign, that Logan ran the worst campaign ever since, since elections had been invented. Now this is a health comment on somebody. And Davis said Logan just didn't have the ability to cut deals, to not force, but convince people to vote the way he wanted. And so after that first Senate campaign that Lincoln lost, I'm sure you're right, Davis said, I could have won. Whether he could have or not, I don't know. But if nothing else, Davis would have said Logan had too many shortcomings. If Lincoln's ever going to be anything, he needs a strong personality who's absolutely loyal to Lincoln, who knows how to handle people, and that was David Davis. So there was some basis for David Davis's belief that he would be the best to lead nomination efforts. Lincoln's second senatorial race, basically, Norman Judd, a state senator from Chicago and the chairperson of the Illinois Republican Party and Norman Judd also sat on the National Republican Committee. He was sort of in charge, although in all of Lincoln's campaigns except for the presidency, Lincoln really kept a tight grip on how things were going, especially in the Senate campaigns. But Norm and Judd, you're right, David Davis didn't care for him. David Davis blamed him and four other anti Nebraska Democrats for failing to vote for Lincoln in the first senatorial race, Davis said. In the second senatorial race in 1858 and 1859, Judd was trying to be nominated for Republican for governor and spent all his time and money and maybe other people's Republican committee money on forwarding or advancing his own. Judd's own efforts and didn't spend enough time with Lincoln, never drew up a statewide plan. So in the second Senate race that Lincoln lost also, Davis said Judd was no good at it. And that's not my conclusion. Davis says this in letters. Davis doesn't pull any punches. As Lincoln said, Davis never feigned anything. And he talks about Judd's shortcomings, says, I don't dislike him personally, but Norman Judd never had a plan, was too worried about himself, and where did all the money go? So after the two Senate campaigns, Davis was convinced he was the only person who could give Lincoln a chance if Lincoln ever had a shot at the presidency. And when Lincoln did, although it was a real dark horse shot, Davis made sure he was in charge of it.
- [31:30]
B
Davis's role in Lincoln's 1860 presidential campaign is in a lot of ways, the very heart of your book. And I was wondering if you could explain a bit exactly what Davis does to get Lincoln the nomination. You make it clear that Lincoln is very much involved in his political career. He's not depending upon a lot of these people. But as you point out, as you describe, Davis is playing a really vital role in this process. He may not necessarily be classified as Lincoln's campaign manager necessarily, but he is definitely one of Lincoln's most important lieutenants.
- [32:07]
C
In the Senate campaigns. Lincoln was right there calling the shots. In the Republican presidential nominating convention In May of 1860, Lincoln was in Springfield. His advisors, including David Davis, told Lincoln, don't come to Chicago. It's a bad look. You stay in Springfield. And one letter David Davis wrote to Lincoln was Stan Springfield, don't come unless we ask you to come. Pretty strong language for Davis to use on Lincoln. When in the senatorial campaigns, Davis would always ask permission before doing something for Lincoln. Davis tells Lincoln, stay where you are. If we need you, we'll call you. If anybody tells you to come, Davis says, don't come. And Davis takes the lead of the convention delegates. One thing I go into in the book that hasn't been in other books is, well, how did Davis get picked to lead the convention delegates and the floor fight in the back room? Discussions about who the Rhode island or Vermont delegates are going to vote for and all of that. And most books just say Davis assumed the spot. Nobody elected him. He just assumed the head of the convention. Although I think there's a little more to it than that. Earlier before the convention, Abraham Lincoln Told Norman Judd that Lincoln only wanted one thing and that was David Davis be made a delegate at large of the convention. David Davis told Lincoln and others he wanted to be a delegate. He had never asked to be a delegate anywhere before. Abraham Lincoln sent some letters out to delegates in Indiana and Ohio and said, when you get to the convention, look up David Davis or Jesse Dubois, who is a state auditor, another Lincoln supporter. I think that there was either express or an implicit understanding between Lincoln and Davis that Davis was going to be in charge. And even if there wasn't an implicit understanding, there's no way David Davis was attending this convention. Lincoln's last shot at anything. There was no way he was. David Davis was attending the convention and going to take orders from somebody else and not be in control. He had done that in the two Senate races and they came up with a zero. So when he shows up there and David Davis is the first one from Illinois at the convention, get some hotel rooms. Because Norman Judd just blew it off. Didn't get any hotel rooms for their. For their convention operation. And David Davis then has a plan, and he's worked his plan out with Lincoln. And I'm sure other people have had input in the plan. But the plan was to hold Illinois delegates together. They were going to do a unit vote for Lincoln, but, boy, it was shaky. There were Illinois delegates who preferred Edward Bates from Missouri. There were Illinois delegates who preferred William Seward from New York. And it was a shaky coalition. Davis had to hold them together then even if he did, then only made Lincoln a favorite son. He needed another state to give a unit vote and really worked Indiana on that and had some great plans and some great strategies for Indiana. He needed two states that would make Lincoln more than a favorite sun candidate. He needed to make Lincoln everybody's second choice. The second choice strategy everybody talks about. If Seward's your first choice, great. But if Seward fails, let's vote for Lincoln. And here's why. If you're for Edward Bates as your first choice, great. But if he fails, vote for Lincoln. Here's why. So he had a second choice strategy. He wanted to get 100 votes on the first ballot for the presidential nomination, then increase it a little each time, then to get it down between Seward and Lincoln. And he had to convince all these delegates, with help from other people, that Seward couldn't win. He was too radical. Lincoln was the available man, which meant at the time the electable man. So he had. This strategy had worked out with Lincoln. He had to change it on the fly at the convention, but he carried it out to perfection. To make Lincoln from a dark horse or whatever would be below a dark horse to the nominee.
- [36:43]
B
And that achievement is all the more remarkable when you set it against the fact that Davis was competing with some of the other great political operatives of his age. Seward had the backing of Thurlow Weed, this long time New York political boss and fixer who had done multiple conventions before he was foursquare behind Seward. People like Weed were Davis's real competition and he ran circles around them. And it's fascinating to read how he does that and how successful he is in this process of achieving what so many seasoned professionals couldn't with their far more visible candidates.
- [37:28]
C
It's exactly what happened. It was sort of, no pun intended, David versus Goliath story. Thurlow Weed was William Seward from New York's manager. He had been his manager since Seward was a governor. He was known as the dictator, he was known as the Wizard. He was known as the man of mysterious ways. And again, for some good reason, Thurlow Weed had made the nomination of at least two Whigs and one Republican presidential nominee. He was absolutely experienced in national conventions. David Davis had never been to a national convention. Thurlow Weed had literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to offer to delegations for campaign expenses. Of course, if they would back Seward. One example I'd like to give about Thurlow Weed and how masterful he was, especially at conventions when Seward was running to be the Republican or the Whig nominee for governor in New York. It's the second time I think he was running. The convention was split. The votes, can't remember who he was running against was about 120. Seward was getting about 120 or 118, some other guy was getting 8. And it went through the whole day split on who the convention delegates for the gubernatorial nomination in New York, who they would back. 120, 120. They were splitting these votes. The New York gubernatorial nomination. Convention recesses for the night. The first vote the next morning wasn't 120, 120. It was 210, the next high for Seward. The next highest, two votes and one blank. So overnight, Thurlow Weed got this nomination for Seward for governor and relegated to the second place in that convention for the nomination to two votes. Miracle. He could work miracles on things like this. And Davis was against his money, was against his experience, was against the rough boys that Thurlow Weed brought in from New York to cheer on their candidate. And it was an amazing achievement. And Thurlow Weed after he lost and he was not too happy and Morrison had not too happy when he lost. He told Lincoln, the only way you got this nomination was David Davis. And so Davis, Davis did pull this off with a lot of hard work, a lot of good strategies that he tailored to different delegations, and Lincoln knew it.
- [40:20]
B
Now, Davis can't play quite that same role in the presidential election itself. And yet you describe in some detail how he nonetheless is so central to Lincoln's efforts. How does he aid Lincoln's election in 1860 and what sort of skills does he demonstrate during that campaign that are different than the ones that he used so successfully to win Lincoln the nomination?
- [40:51]
C
Davis did play a huge role, and I would say the most important role as a campaign backer in the general election. And if people argue with that, that's all right. But he played an instrumental role in the general election. And this is something that has been overlooked. Everybody concentrates on the nominated convention because it's a great story. All men was there promises or not promises. And they sort of then give not much attention to the general election where David Davis was the moving force in a bunch of different ways. He helped with strategy, but the main thing I think he did, or one of the main things was he took a trip. Lincoln asked him to take a trip out east, mainly to Pennsylvania, but he also went to New York because there were maybe problems with Lincoln's support in Pennsylvania and other states on the east Coast. At least Lincoln was concerned with this. Pennsylvania was going to basically control the election. If Lincoln and the Republicans could get Pennsylvania's backing, they were in pretty good shape. In 1856, the Republican candidate, Fremont lost Pennsylvania. And this was a devastating blow. Davis knew from his convention work Pennsylvania was all split up. Simon Cameron, a senator from Pennsylvania, he had his loyal following. Then there was a group led by McClure and Curtin. Andrew Curtin was the gubernatorial candidate who hated. And I mean that I don't like using the word hated. Hated. Cameron and his supporters. And these two groups vied for control of Pennsylvania. Republican money, campaign money, campaign apparatus, precinct committee men. And so Lincoln and Davis and Leonard Sweatt, who was Davis's right hand man, were getting all these letters from Thurlow Weed and other people in New York and people in Pennsylvania saying bad news in the Pennsylvania. These guys are in each other's throats. These two competing factions of the Republican Party maybe. And Thurlow Weed mentioned Davis by name. Maybe you better send Davis out there to see what he can do. So Lincoln got a bunch of these letters and so he sent David Davis out there to talk to the two competing factions in Pennsylvania, go on to New York to cement things with Thurlow Weed, because Thurlow Weed was essential. Thurlow Weed could guarantee that William Seward would back Lincoln in the general election. Seward, who thought he was a shoe in for the nomination, wasn't too happy not to get it. Threatened to leave the party. Threatened to leave the party if some quote unquote Prairie statesman won the nomination. Not too hard to figure out who Prairie statement estate, Prairie statesman meant. So David goes out there on this troubleshooting mission. Davis's skill, he had a couple skills. As Lincoln said, David Davis could make a man do something whether he wanted to or not. A lot of truth to that. David Davis was also a good small talker, a good entertainer, a good host, good with small talk, courtesy, politeness, had all these social skills. He goes out to Pennsylvania and he talks to Cameron. He spends a day with Simon Cameron. Cameron likes him, I'm sure, because Davis is telling Cameron how great he is. And so Simon Cameron writes, Thurlow Weed says, I like Davis, I'm back in Lincoln, like I back anybody to the fullest. Then Davis goes and talks to the McClure Curtin branch of the party and compliments them and gets them feeling good about things. Learns their strategy, which David Davis likes. They got a good plan for Pennsylvania anyway. He's a troubleshooter there and, and gets the Cameron side and the other curtain, McClure side, not to work together, that's impossible, but to he facilitates their efforts and make sure they have program that's not going to conflict with each other. Then he goes to New York, talks to Thurlow Weed, gets in good with him. Thurlow Weed likes him. Davis and Thurlow Weed are the same basically in this context. They're political operatives. They want to do what's best for their candidate. They're absolutely loyal for their candidate and they recognize that in each other. Davis goes to New York, handles some situations there. He does other things. He arranges. He tells Lincoln, David Davis tells Lincoln who we should have speak at the big Springfield Lincoln rally for the election. David Davis concocts a plan so that the head of the Know Nothing Party, which people are thinking, all the Know Nothing leftovers, anti immigrant parties from 1856 maybe can control the election. David Davis comes up with a plan to get the head of The Know Nothing Party in Indiana to back not Lincoln, because they got their own candidate, John Bell, but to back other Republicans in other races. They don't have candidates. The point being that David Davis is manipulating a lot of different things in Illinois, in Indiana, in Pennsylvania, he's raising money. He's raising money by sending letters to people. He's raising money by getting some from Thurlow Weed and from his friend John Goodrich in Massachusetts that's sorely needed. In Indiana, he's a troubleshooter and a fundraiser during the general election.
- [46:57]
B
There's one area in which he and Thurlow Weed, though, are very different in that Davis never has that reputation for corruption that clings to Weed like a stain that he could never quite wash off. And I was thinking about as I was reading your chapter about Davis, Davis's selection for the Supreme Court is that must have been a factor, the feeling that Davis, he's close to Lincoln, he's a Lincoln friend, and he's so instrumental to Lincoln's nomination and election, and yet he's not seen as a corrupt operator in the way that Weed was, which might have very well deprived him any possibility of ever being appointed to the Supreme Court.
- [47:46]
C
Absolutely correct, Sirlo. Weed had this reputation for corruption, and I think it was a little overdone. I don't think he was quite as corrupt as people were saying, but he had a way of doing things that appeared corrupt, which we can go into. And he had the reputation at the convention and also at the nominating convention and nominating convention, Thurlow Weeds people were offering $100,000 to back Seward, the gubernatorial candidate from Indiana. Lane, he and his wife was at the convention, had dinner with one of Weed's underlings, and they got offered $100,000. And Lane's wife in her diary wrote she was absolutely offended by that, that somebody could buy her husband. That was Thurlow Weed's reputation. And some of the states, the New England states, especially a couple of them, did not vote for Seward, although Seward was counting on the New England states for the nomination because of his reputation for corruption. They didn't mind Stewart so much, but they didn't want Thurlow Weeds influence in the White House. As far as Supreme Court, as far as David Davis, he was not seen as corruption. And people who like Davis or didn't like Davis would always say the guy's as honest a guy as you can meet. Samuel Miller, who was on the Supreme Court, wrote a letter saying David Davis, everything he ever did in his whole life was for one purpose, and that is to get on the Supreme Court. David Davis. But then Samuel Miller adds, but he's the most honest person I ever met. And these are common kind of comments about Davis, even as detractors, even his political detractors, even the Democratic congressman from southern, deep, southern Illinois said he's an honest person. And so this was a good comparison to Thurlow Weed at the convention. And it was one reason, I think, that Lincoln appointed in the Supreme Court. You could count on him to conduct himself with integrity. There was no question. Lincoln maybe wasn't too sure exactly how they vote on everything, but he would embarrass, would not embarrass the office, and would act with integrity. And this honest reputation for honesty and integrity carried Davis and aided Davis from his trial court days to his Supreme Court days to his Senate days.
- [50:23]
B
And that's something that, as you point out, we see, you know, during his time on the bench. And you don't go into extensive detail about his career on the court. You instead focus upon this, this series of cases, wartime cases, where his service and the cases related to Lincoln's presidency intersect. And I was wondering if you could talk just very briefly about those cases and how we see that notion of inter. Honesty and integrity at play in how Davis approaches it. Because I thought you were doing something very subtle there, where you were pointing out how Davis was walking a very, very fine line in terms of wanting to do the right thing, and yet aware as well that not that he had a debt to Lincoln, but that he didn't want to put himself in a position where he was necessarily opposing Lincoln. And it was just really fascinating to see how you describe how he walks that line during that time where he's on the court and Lincoln's in the White House.
- [51:30]
C
I do not spend a lot of time talking about the actual cases that Davis heard. I do spend pretty much time talking about Ex Parti Milliken, which is his most famous case, and another case that involved what I call a separate but equal doctrine. But I don't spend a lot of time for a couple reasons. One is, my point is his impartiality and how these cases not affected the legal system, American General, but how they showed his impartiality, the idea that he did walk a fine line between decisions that would hurt Lincoln and not wanting to hurt Lincoln because he wanted his presidency to succeed above all things else. And so there was this fine line, although when push came to shove, David Davis's idea of what Was right, prevailed. Like in Milligan when he said the president could not establish military, not courts, military commissions to try civilians, that was a blow to the Republicans and radicals. So when the two things conflicted, not hurting Lincoln and doing what he thought was right, doing what he thought was right, prevailed. But I would say I agree with what you're saying, especially in this respect when David Davis found that these military commissions that were trying the copperheads in states where the courts were still open was unconstitutional. This was after the war, 1860 Vicks when the issue came before the Supreme Court in I think it was 1864, 1863 and the court sidestepped it. Davis, he was on the court at the time, but doesn't have a concurring opinion, doesn't have a dissenting opinion. And I think he stayed away from the issue during the war because he didn't want this decision to come out in the war. He knew these military, he had been talking about these military commissions being illegal in non seceding states for a long time. He really didn't want to decide this during the war. He waited and after the war, 1866, that's when he decided the commissions were illegal. He had an opportunity to do it earlier or write a concurring opinion to him earlier, but he didn't want to. And I think he thought it was just not the right time to do it. So he did walk a fine line, but when push came to shove, he was going to do what he thought was right. And he said in a letter to his brother in law, when the time comes, when I can't do what I think is right, regardless of the public reaction, regardless of losing friends, then he's going to quit the court.
- [54:18]
B
We appreciate the time you've taken to speak with us, but before we go, could you tell us what you're working on now?
- [54:24]
C
When I was reading all these letters from the David Davis family, I become fascinated with the number of letters and the type of letters and the content, the content of letters that his wife Sarah was writing. She went to a school, Harry Beecher Stowe's sister's school. She was learning algebra, natural philosophy courses that were not usually in, in a woman's finishing school, were reserved for men. You read her letters and she comes from this refined background in Massachusetts and she gets to Illinois, got to sleep on the floor in the, in the lodge when their carriage breaks down. When Davis is gone so much, she's in charge of supervising the slaughtering of the pigs on the farm, has to control the number of rats in the basement, all the unbelievable stuff. And she does it with a smile and no complaints from her period. And then you read her letters. She has a lot of political opinions, social opinions, some that are very, very interesting. And so what I want to do is look in a little bit more to her life and see if I can come up with something at least worth an article celebrating what she contributed to the community in Bloomington and to the country, too.
- [55:43]
B
Well, I wish you the best luck for that project. Sounds like a very worthy endeavor.
- [55:47]
C
Mark, you're too nice. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. I had a good time.
- [55:51]
B
Well, as did I. Thank you very much. And I hope you have a wonderful day.
- [55:54]
C
Thank you. YouTube.