Podcast Summary: Rebecca L. Davis, "Fierce Desires: A New History of Sex and Sexuality in America"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Tom Disena
Guest: Rebecca L. Davis
Date: November 3, 2025
Book Featured: Fierce Desires: A New History of Sex and Sexuality in America (W.W. Norton, 2024)

Overview

This episode explores Rebecca L. Davis’s Fierce Desires, a sweeping narrative chronicling over 400 years of American sexual history. Davis discusses the evolution of sexual norms, identities, and regulation from colonial times through the present. The conversation offers nuanced insight into how concepts like sexual identity, the policing of intimacy, and debates around gender, power, and pleasure have shifted and continue to shape American society.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Motivation for the Book (03:03–04:27)

• Davis describes her journey teaching a history of sexuality class, discovering gaps in available literature, and feeling compelled to broaden the narrative with new stories and approaches.
• Influential groundwork by Intimate Matters (D’Emilio & Freedman) is acknowledged, but Davis’s book aims to share vibrant narratives that challenge assumptions and open new perspectives.

“I experimented with narrative about telling stories to help draw students into the topics I was discussing.”
— Rebecca Davis (03:54)

2. Shifting Concepts of Sexuality and Identity (05:24–08:54)

• Early American society defined sexual identity by social role (e.g., wife, patriarch, servant), not inner orientation.
• Contrasts are drawn between European and Indigenous approaches, the latter viewing sexuality’s role in community differently and generally more tolerantly.
• Europeans imposed patriarchal norms, clashing with indigenous life ways, particularly over bodily autonomy.

“For indigenous North Americans, it was largely connected to whole understandings of nature, of the world, of the life cycle… There wasn’t built in a sort of patriarchal idea that men had more access to pleasure or autonomy than women did, which was part of what Europeans thought.”
— Rebecca Davis (07:00)

3. Three Periods of American Sexual History (08:54–09:31)

• Davis structures the book around three periods:
  1. Establishing Order
  2. Redefining Sex
  3. Solving Sexual Problems

Establishing Order: Gender, Ambiguity & Control (09:31–14:05)

• The story of Thomas(ine) Hall (ca. 1620s) exemplifies gender fluidity in early America and society’s attempts to police ambiguous identities.
• Hall’s life—moving between genders and roles—illustrates that gender fluidity is not a modern invention. The court’s solution was to force Hall to wear both men’s and women’s clothing, reflecting the period’s social anxieties.

“We can speculate that Hall was possibly intersex, that had an intersex condition… What I find fascinating … is how concerned they were not with whether Hall had sinned, but with whether Hall was misbehaving...”
— Rebecca Davis (10:09)

The Experiences of Nonwhite Americans (14:05–18:06)

• Stories like Juana Hurtado (Southwest, 1670s) and enslaved Black women underscore the complex, often fraught negotiations of autonomy and identity under colonial and slavery regimes.
• Davis credits Black feminist historians for recentering enslaved women’s sexual experiences and the navigation of autonomy even in dire circumstances.

“There was terrible sexual coercion and fear of coercion… but there were also loving relationships, parent-child bonds… kinship bonds.”
— Rebecca Davis (17:11)

Policing Sexuality through Literature & Law (18:06–24:20)

• Fanny Hill as a transatlantic bestseller and early example of the policing of sexual expression.
• Davis describes the evolution from a vibrant early print culture to increasing censorship, spurring by technological revolutions (railroads, mail delivery, and later, photography).
• Laws to control obscenity—such as the 1840s tariff acts and subsequent anti-obscenity laws—reflected xenophobic anxieties and a move toward restriction.

“American print culture… was pretty lively when it came to talking about sex. And it’s really in the 1800s… the US government tries to stop the flow of obscenity, as they start calling it.”
— Rebecca Davis (20:05)

Redefining Sex: The State Intervenes (24:20–34:14)

• Anthony Comstock: A central figure in anti-obscenity law. His personal crusade shaped national policy, criminalizing distribution of “obscenity” (including contraception and abortion material).
• The resilience and resistance of free speech advocates, such as Ida Craddock, highlighted ongoing battles over the boundaries of sexual expression.
• The era also saw new forms of sexuality: polygamy debates, the rise of “dating culture,” shifts from chaperoned courtship to treating, and the emergence of peer-driven social and sexual norms.

“Comstock put anything related to contraception or to abortion in his definition of obscenity. And those pieces of it had effects well into the 20th century. And in fact, still to this day…”
— Rebecca Davis (25:54)

“On the one hand, [there is] assertion of government authority and intrusiveness, but on the other, this popular culture that doesn’t have one definition of what sex is or what it’s for… but [is] in the midst of a very lively conversation about it.”
— Rebecca Davis (31:06)

Solving Sexual Problems: Science, Liberation & Backlash (34:44–57:35)

• Alfred Kinsey’s research opened new conversations by documenting sexual variation—especially frequency of non-marital and same-sex behavior.
  • The Kinsey Reports sparked outrage and relief, showing many that they weren’t alone.
• Davis reflects on the challenges and rewards of teaching and researching sexual history: overcoming taboo, balancing scholarly seriousness with the reality of pleasure.
• Davis’s chapter on Betty Dodson highlights both her revolutionary advocacy for pleasure and masturbatory education, and her blind spots (especially around racial sensitivity), capturing the complexities of later 20th-century sexual politics.

"She was at the center of... the sexual Liberation in the 60s and 70s in New York and elsewhere. She was very pro pornography..."
— Rebecca Davis (44:28)

• The feminist movement split over issues of pornography and BDSM; debates over what constitutes liberation or exploitation persist.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the persistence of shame:

  “[Dodson] was also this advocate against shame, which… women have been taught to be ashamed about their sexualities and their bodies. The whole reaction to the Kinsey Report… ‘we don’t want women to know these things, right?’” (46:15)

• Contemporary Resonance:

  "We're today talking about forcibly examining children to know which sports team they would be on… But we know better... We should know better now. And I do find it very troubling that that's where we've ended back. But at the same time... the genie's out of the bottle. People are so accustomed to making their own decisions about their bodies, gender, and sexuality..." (56:04)

• On the current moment:

  "Abortion opponents described the procedure as an assault on the American family because they argued it untethered reproductive sex from marriage, women from men and men from their responsibilities as family breadwinners. Abortion struck at their beliefs that the conventionally gendered heterosexual family held the nation together... This worldview rejected the modern understanding of desire as a discrete aspect of human experience..."
  — Rebecca Davis [reading from her book, 49:34]

Important Timestamps

• Rebecca L. Davis discusses her motivation: 03:03
• Changing concepts of sexual identity: 05:24
• Story of Thomas(ine) Hall and gender fluidity: 09:31–13:19
• Experiences of enslaved & indigenous people: 14:05–18:06
• Fanny Hill, print culture, and censorship: 18:31–24:20
• Anthony Comstock & government regulation: 24:47–26:41
• Young people's sexuality in the early 20th century: 32:36–34:14
• The Kinsey Reports and their impact: 34:51–37:44
• Betty Dodson and feminist debates on sexuality: 44:23–48:46
• Contemporary echoes of historical debates (trans, abortion, marriage): 49:34–56:04

Takeaways for the Listener

• Sexuality in America has been defined, regulated, celebrated, and policed in widely different ways over time.
• Concepts of sexual identity are recent, with deep roots in both social structure and political power.
• Popular culture and state power have often clashed over how sex is defined and experienced.
• Many arguments and anxieties around gender and sexuality today echo those of centuries past, underlining the persistence—and change—of these debates.

Recommended For

• Listeners interested in American social history
• Educators and students in gender, sexuality, and cultural studies
• Readers seeking context for current legal and cultural debates about sex, abortion, gender, and LGBTQ+ rights

Closing

Rebecca L. Davis’s Fierce Desires offers a rich, evidence-based narrative showing how Americans have wrestled with the meaning and regulation of sex and sexuality for centuries. The conversation connects past to present, helping listeners reflect on where these debates come from and what might come next.

For more from Rebecca L. Davis, check out her podcast, “This Is Probably a Really Weird Question.”