Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Nicholas Gordon
Guest: Rian Thum (Senior Lecturer of History, University of Manchester)
Book: Islamic China: An Asian History (Harvard UP, 2025)
Date: March 5, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth discussion with historian Rian Thum about his new book, Islamic China: An Asian History. The conversation challenges the perception of Chinese Muslims as exotic outliers and reframes their place in both Chinese and global Islamic history. Thum emphasizes the ordinary nature of Chinese Muslim life, their longstanding presence in Chinese society, the evolution of their communities, and the complex transregional connections that have shaped Muslim identity in China.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Genesis of Islamic China

• Motivating Questions: Thum began the project to explore the links between the Uyghur and Hui Muslim groups, driven by the lack of research on Persian and Arabic texts used in China (02:02).
• Challenging Misconceptions: Thum identified a widespread misconception that Chinese Islam is inherently an "exotic" or compromised version of Islam, heavily inflected with Confucianism. In reality, Chinese Muslims have long been deeply tied into broader Islamic intellectual worlds.
  • Quote:
    "What we were looking at in a lot of the secondary literature...was a somewhat distorted view of Muslims in China that portrays them as exceptional, as sort of exotic outliers...when in fact Muslims in China have always been very closely tied to developments in the rest of the Muslim-majority world..."
    — Rian Thum (04:45)

Who Are Chinese Muslims?

• Demographics and History:
  • 25 million Muslims in modern China, spread across every province.
  • Two main ethnic groups:
    • Uyghurs: Concentrated in Xinjiang/Eastern Turkestan, integrated through conquest and expansion.
    • Hui: Scattered across China, descendants of centuries-long conversion and migration.
      • Formerly identified as "people of the Hui teaching;" only gradually did Hui become categorized as a distinct ethnicity based on religion in the 20th century (07:05).
  • Other Muslim-majority groups exist, with distinct histories.
• Diaspora: Significant Hui and Uyghur diaspora communities in places like Thailand, Saudi Arabia, with multi-directional influence between diaspora and homeland.

Historical Focus: Ming, Qing & Republican Eras

• Rationale for Timeframe:
  • The late Ming marks the emergence of surviving books written by Chinese-speaking Muslims.
  • Early 20th century marks a shift: new printing technologies and the rise of Islamic modernism/literalism altered the canon and practice.
    • Quote:
      "Until the turn of the 20th century, nearly all changes to how people thought about Islam and what they thought you should read were about adding books to the canon. And it’s only at that time where you start to get really substantial movements that are starting to say…much of what we’ve been thinking and saying needs to be eliminated."
      — Rian Thum (13:13)
  • Thum links past and present with examples and continuities throughout the book.

Ma Lianyuan: A Key Figure (16:00)

• Who Was He?:
  • A 19th-century Muslim scholar from Yunnan, pivotal in printing and preserving Islamic texts that were previously available only in manuscript.
  • Focused on restoring Islamic education disrupted by rebellion.
  • Advocated education primarily in Persian, then Arabic, and finally Chinese.
  • Bridged Confucian-inflected Islamic philosophy with broader Persian and Arabic traditions, even translating Chinese texts into Arabic.
• Significance: Showed how interconnected Chinese Muslim intellectual traditions were, countering views that saw them as insular or uniquely "sinicized."

Language & Text in Chinese Islam (22:25)

• Multilingual Tradition:
  • Prior to 1915, the majority of texts in mosque libraries were in Persian or Arabic, with some in Chinese (written classical Chinese, not vernacular).
  • Chagatai (ancestor of modern Uyghur) appears only rarely.
  • 20th-century Chinese literacy reforms led to more Islamic texts in Chinese.
  • Classical texts cite Persian and Arabic sources from across the Islamic world—11th to 16th centuries—demonstrating constant intellectual exchange.

Diaspora Connections and Flows (26:00)

• Influence & Networks:
  • Diaspora communities (e.g., Thailand, India, the Middle East) not only preserved but also influenced Islamic practice and scholarship in China.
  • Flows were not just out of China but also back into it, with scholars returning with new books and ideas.
  • Quote:
    "If you have Persian and Arabic skills, you can go pretty much anywhere south and west of China and slip in pretty cleanly..."
    — Rian Thum (29:28)
  • Mobility and language skills produced continual renewal and transformation of Chinese Islamic life.

The Research Process (30:00)

• Book-Hunting:
  • Thum’s methodology involved visiting mosques, seeking out antique dealers, following ‘threads’ from written or oral histories, and direct collection of books in the field.
  • Official archives are often inaccessible due to sensitivity and cataloging challenges.
  • Particularly values the thrill and serendipity of this hands-on research.
    • Quote:
      "A lot of book hunting, which is if you...read the book, you’ll get a sense that that’s something I really really enjoy doing."
      — Rian Thum (33:10)

Portraits of Chinese Muslim Intellectuals (33:45)

• Biographical Approach:
  • The book presents around 20 biographies to avoid rigid or anachronistic categorization.
  • Example:
    • Wang Daiyu: A late Ming author, among the first to write about Islam in Chinese, creatively explained Islamic concepts—such as using “the ultimate sage” for the Prophet Muhammad—to Confucian and Buddhist audiences.
      • Quote:
        "How do you describe what a prophet is? There’s no such thing as a prophet...He calls the Prophet Muhammad the ultimate sage, which is a term used also for Confucius."
        — Rian Thum (35:53)
    • Others: Adventurous travelers who studied abroad, sometimes establishing new movements or schools upon return.

The Ordinary Within the Exotic

• Thum’s central argument is that for Chinese Muslims, their religious life is “ordinary” from their perspective, not a hybrid or anomaly but a natural part of the Chinese landscape.
  • Quote:
    "I frame it in the book as making the Muslims of China or talking about Muslims of China in the way they understand themselves, which is as ordinary, ordinary people, an ordinary part of the Chinese cultural landscape."
    — Rian Thum (05:52)

Notable Quotes and Moments

• "Can someone be Chinese and Muslim? For some academics, this has been a surprisingly fraught question..."
  — Nicholas Gordon (00:49)
• "[Chinese Muslims]... have always been closely tied to developments in the rest of the Muslim-majority world."
  — Rian Thum (04:45)
• "One of the challenges is... there’s almost no topic where you can say, ‘This is an over-researched topic.’"
  — Rian Thum (26:22)
• "How do you explain Islam that you’ve learned through Persian and Arabic texts to Confucian literati, to Buddhists, working in Chinese?"
  — Rian Thum (36:08)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:02 — Thum’s motivation for writing Islamic China; sources and neglected histories
• 07:05 — Overview of Hui and Uyghur communities; demographics, ethnic and religious identities
• 12:21 — Rationale for focusing on Ming, Qing, and Republican periods
• 16:00 — Ma Lianyuan’s biography and importance
• 22:25 — Languages of Islamic texts and their significance
• 26:00 — The impact of the diaspora and its links to homeland communities
• 30:14 — Research process and fieldwork challenges
• 33:45 — Biographical storytelling approach; Wang Daiyu and others
• 39:59 — Next projects and where to find Rian Thum’s work

Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced, richly contextualized look at the history of Islam in China, revealing the depth, complexity, and ordinariness of Chinese Muslim life. Thum’s research challenges simplistic or exoticized portrayals, highlighting both global ties and distinctive local dynamics. The discussion is essential listening for those interested in Chinese history, Islamic Studies, and the ongoing evolution of religious and ethnic identity in Asia.