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Robert Jason Grant, "Understanding Sensory Differences: A Neurodiversity Affirming Guidebook for Children and Teens" (2022)
00:49:58
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [00:05]
B
Hello. This is Helene Wissing, your host on the New Books Network. Today I am talking with Robert Jason Grant about his new book, Understanding Sensory A Neurodiversity Affirming Guidebook for Children and Teens, published by Artplay Publishing. Welcome to the show, Robert.
- [00:27]
A
Thank you. I am very happy to be here. Thank you for the invite. I'm excited.
- [00:33]
B
Yes, it's great to have you. And I was wondering if maybe you would start by introducing yourself a bit, tell us about your work, your background, and maybe also how it led you to writing this really unique and excellent book.
- [00:49]
A
Yes, happy to. So I professionally am a licensed mental health professional and also a registered play therapist supervisor and I own a private practice clinic in Southwest Missouri. It's called the Alt Play Clinic, where we work with kids, teens, families primarily, and provide mental health care. And we specialize in working with neurodivergent clients, which would include kids with sensory differences. And that's my day job, I guess, as you would say it. And then I do trainings for professionals, mental health professionals, schools on the topics of primarily neurodiversity, affirmative care. And I also do a lot of consultation services for professionals and caregivers when I'm not seeing clients personally. I'm a neurodivergent individual myself. Lately diagnosed sensory processing disorder, among other neural divergences. But in terms of our discussion, that's probably the most important one. And that is a big part of what motivated me to write this guidebook that we're talking about. I actually have three of these guidebooks that I self published. They were kind of more of like a passion project because I wanted something that was really pragmatic. Just let's just get to the point and help people understand what's going on here with sensory Differences, how to really support children and teens with sensory differences. And that's kind of where this book and this companion books came from. I do have some other bigger volume books I've published through a publishing company. But you know, those are the boring textbook type books. These are the ones you can just really get in the hands of a therapist who doesn't know much about this or caregiver or parent. And they can really feel more knowledgeable and more empowered and they know better to maybe help the child understand themselves better, which is always so critical and just a shout out because I'll forget at some point if you do. If somebody listening does venture to get this book, the COVID was done by my son. All three of the covers for these guidebooks should done. My son, he's an adhd, he has a few sensory differences, but he's mainly, well, representing the ADHD community in his life. But when he was little, I just took pictures from him and made them the COVID art for the books. So they're a little strange, but there are originals from him. I think he continues to be excited about that even though he's not a little kid anymore.
- [03:48]
B
I think that's wonderful. I love that background anecdote because it also just points to how this work here, you're doing that as a full person. Which I love about our time, is that being a mental health professional today is not about only being a professional Persona, it's about being a full person. I love that. And you know, in speaking of also the topic of differences, I think this book is, you know, it's so versatile in the potentials because it's. Yeah, like you say, very practical or pragmatic. A handbook. Like, there's so much, there's information, there's so many resources, but it can really be used by a lot of different people. When I was reading it, I mean, first and foremost, I'm thinking this is going to be a very relevant book for therapists in training, certainly in the program I teach in a somatic program. But also I'm thinking like OTs will really benefit from it. Maybe teachers who have students with sensory differences, all kinds of people working with children and teens, parents too. So I think it's kind of very fitting. The format and style of the book is very. Yeah. Versatile.
- [05:16]
A
Yeah, I would. I'm glad you brought that up because I think that was the intention. Not just that it was something for child and play therapists, but really any one who works with a sensory different child or is a raising one. It's applicable information. Of course, when I received my diagnosis as an adult, it was at a time where I don't think there was as much information about the sensory system and sensory differences. And so it was a little isolated to just sort of this sensory processing disorder diagnosis and possibly working with an OT who was trained in working with sensory processing disorder. But things have grown a lot since then. I mean, now we know across neural divergence, which would include autistic kids, ADHDers, kids with learning differences, very often they also have sensory differences that are playing a role in their life. And so you're so right. I mean, across disciplines, any professional, or again, just caregiver people in school settings, you know, you're going to encounter kids with sensory differences and so just having a better understanding of what that actually means in terms of supporting them and helping them, that was kind of the goal.
- [06:48]
B
Yeah. And I mean, this, the medical model. I mean, I think for some time we've had ongoing conversations about the limitations of the medical model. I mean, that's a very wide conversation in mental health, but it's almost like those conversations still come up against, like, yeah, now we have a widespread understanding of the limitations of the medical model, but we don't have fully, like, what do we put instead? Right. And that's why I, when, you know, discovering your work, I was struck by also how long it took me to kind of find a book like this. Like, we don't have that yet. Right. Like. Like this is only now coming along. And I mean, you're, you're kind of one of the people really build building this and, and, and growing this. But, but it just, it just really showing us how maybe it's sort of a transitional time where. Because your book really shows how the medical model and the diagnostic systems. Right. That level is just this very surface level. And it's really. You need to get down to the sensory layer to be working in a much more, I want to say, meaningful way with the presenting issues.
- [08:06]
A
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you saying that because that's what I would like to see happening across, you know, all our support services, where a child comes in with sensory differences. Sometimes it is directly focused on what's going on with that child's sensory system. Like, that's a part of what is creating dysregulation for them as they go through a school day or any place they walk into. I mean, this. Those eight sensory areas, at any given moment, one or usually more of them, you know, are activated in any given setting or situation. And sometimes that's not understood, and thus it's not supported. And so in a situation like that, the child is probably just left in a state of dysregulation and not even understanding what's going on with themselves. That was certainly my case as a child, for sure, for many years, which promoted masking and so many other things that are not maybe the healthiest way that we want to go. The combination of a lot of my neurodivergences, but primarily the unrecognized sensory kind of bombardment even led to some trauma responses. I mean, these are kind of the roads that can go down. And so sometimes we are focusing on that specifically. Sometimes it's just understanding the child's sensory differences. So, you know, how to better Relate to them and how to better help them, you know, navigate something. You know, I have kids come in to see me who their sensory differences probably are not, you know, the primary therapy goal that are not manifesting in a way that's really creating the issue for them. The issue is something else. That's our therapy goal. But I still have to understand their sensory differences because I have to know, like, do we need to adjust the lighting in the room? You know, why we're working on our therapy goal? Do we need to avoid something in the room? Do we need to add something in the room? Because again, if something does come in and bothers that sensory system, that child is not going to be available nervous system wise to fully participate in this therapy that you're wanting them to participate in. That may be great therapy, right, to help address something. But it's not going to land because the child's over here, you know, just trying to figure out how to not be feeling this overwhelm or this dysregulation that's happening by something as simple as something in your room.
- [11:01]
B
Yeah, and I'd love to come back to talking about the, those eight areas there. But this thing you're, you're taught, what you're talking about here, I feel like in a way you're, you're talking about this kind of the foundation of your approach, which is the, the affirming perspective and, and just how, how that is concretized in the work, in your clinical principles, in the clinical thinking, in the interactions. I wonder if you could speak about that. What, what is the, the affirming perspective?
- [11:30]
A
Yeah, for sure. Well, the affirming perspective is more one where this is, you know, recognized as a different way of navigating. And ideally that is something that, you know, the person themselves, the child gets an opportunity to learn and understand. You know, this is how my sensory system works. These are my strengths, these are my challenge areas. These are the places where, you know, I do wonderfully. These are some areas where I could use some supports and these are the supports that would best help me. And all that's validated, not pathologized or judged as wrong. It's just a different way of navigating and it's recognized as such. The key in kind of being neurodiversity affirming for me, especially in the mental health perspective is always building up the self worth. Every decision should go through the lens of is what I'm about to say to the child is the way that I'm about to say it is the thing we're about to do to the child. That was in quotes because that's sometimes the problem. Is it landing in a way that's going to build up their self worth or is it going to tear down their self worth? And it always needs to be landing in a way that builds up their self worth because that's obviously core to their good mental health. The child should be a part of the process. Their voice should be heard. They should always be considered a partner. And we want to be listening to them of what they're saying is going on with them, what they need, what they don't need, what helps them, what doesn't. For me, as a sensory different person, I have appreciated techniques, you know, strategies. We love strategies and helping professions like let's just give you a tool and now you're good to go or let's try to eliminate your differences and now you'll be okay. Well, eliminating the differences never works. I mean, that's not a good idea. It's not going to be effective. The tools, the strategies are great. There are strategies that I use in certain situations. I wasn't expecting to begin and I notice that I'm getting dysregulated. And so, yeah, I can go into my sort of, you know, imaginary or abstract tool bag and pull out something to kind of get me through a scenario. I'm appreciative of those things. But my mental health wasn't changed by strategies. My mental health was changed by the affirming perspective. Like, I'm okay being sensory different. That's what really impacted my mental health. It makes a difference there. That's what really empowers me, keeps my self worth in a good place. The strategies, techniques are great. We, we do use them, but they have to just be something that comes along with our first priority of making sure this person is affirm and validated and feels okay, if not good about who they are instead of some kind of internalized ableism happening to them.
- [14:57]
B
I think this is, this is such an important point, this is such an important message that the goal isn't just to manage behavior and eliminate problems or symptoms. That's like that, that will not change or, but like it's so important with the shift to that sense of self. And I mean, one of the things you also write that. I really love this sentiment. You say that, yes, sensory differences mean that you have different sensory needs that need to be addressed, but sensory difference also means sensory strengths.
- [15:37]
A
Yes, yes.
- [15:39]
B
And that's that affirming idea of like it's not enough to just look at, like, what are your sensory needs that we need to handle, but like, how can we actually appreciate your sensory needs in the context of your strengths as a person?
- [15:54]
A
Yes, that was a huge point for me personally. When I realized, obviously I knew, you know, here's the sensory areas where integration, you know, is not happening in the way that maybe it should or whatever. And so I did understand where the needs were and what I was walking into, what I needed to think about, which was great. But the big piece for me that was so powerful was when I realized, but wait a minute, there's also strengths. It's sort of interesting because some of the areas where I have higher sensory needs, there's also these really clearly understood strengths that I have. Visual is one for me. Like, that's a meat area. There are certain lighting that just starts to really bother me, things moving quickly in front of my eyes. I never could do video games as a kid. You know, anything that's moving quickly in front of my eyes, I still can't do. Like gaming like that. Even Minecraft sometimes bothers me. If my person is stuck down in the ground and they're flitting around, I just start to like, I can't do it. I start to feel sick and dysregulated. But when I realized that there were these things that I did visually that were strengths that other people weren't doing on the same level, I was like, wait a minute, we're only getting one side of the story here. These need areas, which is important. But what about the strengths I remember? And then all the memories started flooding in. I'm always been excellent at word search games, always our findit games. I could spot it. You know, anytime anybody lost something in the house, these are things I remember as a child. Anytime anybody lost something in the house, they would always come find me to find it. Because I could just see it across the room in a little corner, underneath, you know, a pillow. Like, I could just spot it. And it's funny because in college it would be like anytime anybody was going to go on a hike, they would want me to go. And I was always in front because even many, many yards ahead, I could spot a snake in the grass. Like these were like some strengths that came with the visual piece of me. It wasn't always just, you know, the things that were differences that were meat areas. There's also strengths involved. And I begin to like understand that with all of the different pieces of my sensory areas where there were needs is Recognizing, oh, but there are things that really shine here too that aren't things everybody has. And that was an awareness. Of course, that came in adulthood as well. In childhood, you know, I was just fumbling around trying to figure out what the heck was going on with me with no answers, which is never a good idea for kids. But as an adult realizing these things, it was just very powerful. And then being able to go, okay, this needs to be shared and we need to understand this better about kids.
- [19:08]
B
Yeah. And you're sharing here about your, your personal experience. There's also, there's a really wonderful section where in the book where you talk about that and you also invited colleagues to share their stories and there's. Yes, so there's like a handful of, of stories about that. And I think those stories really demonstrate the importance of that process of getting to know oneself also in a sensory way. And it's sort of like as you're describing now, that's a crucial process to go through to understand yourself. And then the worksheet sections, you can see that there are lots of these really powerful exercises. And these exercises, it's really clear how they are meant to also support that. And one of the things you point out is that this is a huge thing that's neglected in the field is to help our children and teens understand their sensory self. Like actually directly facilitating that they build an understanding of themselves, like their sensory profile, their sensory, their, their personalities also in a sensory way.
- [20:22]
A
Yes, that is key piece of, you know, what I hope comes through and you know, information is given in the book to help support adults helping kids with that because that's such a difference maker. We could really extend this to all children. This is just kind of how almost all children work is much sooner than you think. They recognize something's going on with them. And if they don't get information, if they don't get an answer, they'll just create one. And almost always it's a negative. It's always something that's going to tear down their self worth. And that's why it's so important that the adults in their life come in with, here's what's going on with you. And I'm going to present that in an affirming way because I want to protect that self worth. Right. I want that to be in a good place because again, that's our primary.
- [21:31]
B
And this, what you're talking about here helps me also understand why in the beginning of the book you also clarify that you, you actually don't, you don't like so much the term sensory processing disorder. Uh, it's not your preferred term. Uh, you prefer sensory differences. And you actually did. You surveyed with the people you work with to kind of get a sense of it. So I wonder if you would explain a little bit about your thoughts on that and how you came to. To that.
- [22:02]
A
Well, I think disorder, the word disorder has these implications and. And they're negative implications. Right? They're less than implications. They're. You have a problem that needs to be fixed, and that's just kind of how we view that term. So I'm not a big fan of the disorder, add on sensory processing, you know, maybe anything else, but I'm just not a big fan of the word disorder, especially when we're talking about neural divergence. So I use it. I mean, I use it sometimes to describe myself. I think people are free and should be free to, you know, use the terms that mean something to them and they're okay with. So I do reference it. Sometimes I say I'm an SPDer, and sometimes I just say sensory differences. That's the one that probably I fall on the most. Yeah, I did a little survey. It wasn't just my colleagues. I. I reached out to a lot of people I didn't know. I just kind of went into all these sensory spaces, adults, and it's like, you know, do you have a preference? And listed some of the options. Most of the people did not have a preference. I think they maybe didn't think or care about it enough. Some of them did. Some of them would say the things I said sensory different. SPD or some of them just said, sensory processing disorder is fine with me. But, you know, it is important that we, you know, think about the language we're using, especially with kids, because language has meaning and it has implications and it has interpretation. And so it is another one of those places where it's sort of like what you say, but also how you say it as an implication for how the child is going to internalize it. And again, we don't ever want them internalizing something negative about the self because that always leads to more mental health problems. And then at some point, we're dealing with all kinds of things, not just sensory differences anymore or needs in that area, but anxiety, depression, suicidality. Who knows where it could go when we start attacking the self. So that's why it's important to think about it. Some people maybe think it's silly, you know, to think about these terms and the language. And if you are someone you Know, with spd, and you think it's fine, that's great for you. It doesn't mean that everyone else isn't going to internalize that negatively, especially a child. So I think it's valid that we talk about it.
- [24:46]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's. It's also reminding me of the difficult reality that these labels sometimes have real consequences in terms of what resources can. Can be accessed. And it's. It's. You know, working in the field, we're very used to this, but it's just, you know, it's. I'm sometimes struck by just how devastating it is that, you know, for example, parents and caregivers, like, they want. Like, it's like they. They don't want to pathologize their children, but it's almost like you have to fight to get a diagnosis because that is the only key to resources often. Right. For a lot of people, that is the key to getting resources. And there's actually something completely backwards about that whole set.
- [25:34]
A
Yes, yes. The strangely intertwined systems and how they have become intertwined and affect each other is a whole wild ride that many parents of neurodivergent kids understand, because they're dealing with it all the time. You know, entering any kind of system, the medical system, the disability system, the education system, and all these places where that's connected to a DSM diagnosis. And you have to have a specific one. And not just that, but it has to be given in a specific way. And it's. It's wild, you know, that you can't just meet a child and understand what their needs are and then just meet those. Support those needs with supports without all of this, these hoops that have to be negotiated and jumped through in a very specific way. Right. And sometimes those specific ways are not accessible to some parents and children. And that's something that we don't talk about enough either is a psychological evaluation. A full psychological evaluation is fine. You know, we have evaluators in our clinic, but there are families who come in who don't have a way to pay for that evaluation. They're expensive. And not every family has insurance, and not every family has an insurance plan that will pay for that evaluation. You know, we don't think about these places in the system we've created that create roadblocks for people to access services.
- [27:28]
B
Yeah, I mean, this is the very real material challenges of the systems and the lack of resources and the kind of constant underfunding and just, like, lack of willingness to invest in this. And I'm also thinking of one of the things that's, you know, these very real resources, lack of resources, I think also connects to some things going on, on kind of psychological levels because your work really shows how. I mean of course this is relational work. Right. Like this deep relational work. And you also have a long standing experience in the, as a play therapist in the play therapy community and trained in that. And, and that that's woven in, through, through this, your, your work here. And, and we know from play therapy that the work is, it's, it requires openness and vulnerability and there's a certain intensity to it. Like you need to be willing to be impacted by the children and have your own things be impacted. Like they're. That to really have an affirming culture around children and their educational systems and their, in the recreational systems like that requires that we can be really present as full humans. And I, and this is just my own, my own little, you know, philosophizing. I think there is a lot of resistance to relationality. I think there's a lot of resistance. We are in a hyper individualistic era and people resist the closeness that the work requires.
- [29:10]
A
Yes, I think you're right. And it's probably what I would say most play therapists would tell you is the key. Regardless of the play therapy theory approaches, the therapeutic relationship, you know, the authenticity of that and that piece itself is considered a change agent in the therapeutic powers of play. That's the part that I think a lot of people miss is that that isn't just a nicety. Right. There's power in that relationship as a change agent. And. But there's what you were saying at the beginning is the key. That's an adult who enters that authentically. Not even as this is a skill I'm putting on for the next hour, but wants to communicate authentic value, unconditional regard and acceptance of the child who walks in to the room the first time and lives that, you know, as a philosophy. And that's probably counter to a lot of things that a lot of adults who work with kids are taught. They're probably taught out of more in general a compliance based way to interact with a child.
- [30:43]
B
Like behavioral management.
- [30:45]
A
Yeah. Instead of a relational way to interact with a child. And so then, you know, the relationship piece doesn't often really happen because that's a real process. It's not just well, I'm nice to the child or yeah, I hope this child does well, so I've got a relationship with them or I've hung out with them all semester. None of those things mean you really have a relationship developed with the child like we're talking about. And so I think that gets lost or minimized to insignificant. And instead we just fall into these. I just have to keep kind of changing this behavior until I get compliance. And then isn't the child great? Now there's this great meme on that goes around social media and it's. It's like this adult talking to a parent, and the adult says he had a great day today. You know, it was a really great day for him. And then over here, you see the child and the thought bubble, and the child said, the only day I had was I just did everything you wanted me to. And it was like, boom. You know, like, that child may have had a miserable day. What you're really saying is they did everything you wanted them to do for you, which isn't always equate to they had a great day.
- [32:10]
B
Yeah. Wow, that sounds like a mean truth bomb there.
- [32:15]
A
Yeah, it's a good one.
- [32:17]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I appreciate how you really, like, explain how the foundation of this is the relational approach, because I think there's so much to learn here in your work about the way to work with sensory differences. There's a lot of really important things to understand about what are sensory differences. But none of those kind of activities or techniques or like, somatic techniques, like, none of it is really going to matter if it's not coming from the relational foundation for therapists or others Working with kids. Like, that needs to be the foundation. And I think, I mean, I think that's a really important message because we are in a time where there's such a focus on sensory techniques or somatic techniques, somatic therapies, which is amazing, but sometimes it can be watered down to just being these, like, techniques that anyone could do. And that's a big misunderstanding. I'm exaggerating a bit, but, you know, that's a big misunderstanding here because without the relational foundation, you can actually end up doing harm, I think in the most consequence.
- [33:31]
A
Yeah. A really like, kind of simple example to what you're saying, which is all so accurate. If people could think about it more this way, like, because we, we. We certainly recognize the importance of those techniques. Let's. You and I are both wearing glasses. We're recording this. We can't. I can't. People can't see us, but we are. We really are both wearing glasses. Our glasses would be the equivalent to the technique to help us see, but the glasses wouldn't ever really touch if we hated because we had to wear glasses. So if we don't address that, it doesn't matter how many times we put glasses on, we still have that self hate. So you've got to address the person, not just give them a bunch of techniques. Yeah, our glasses help us see better. But what if you hated that you had to wear them? Just wearing them and having them as something to help you see better wouldn't ever touch on that. You hated that you had to wear them. So those techniques have a great place. But I always think of them as they come in and support your good sense of self in who you are and how you navigate and your differences are okay. And, and you're still absolutely valuable and important and you're not less than that existence really to me is first and then give me the glasses and now I'm even extra happy. Right. And I wish that we kind of understood that process a little bit better. It's not saying don't do the techniques, but it's just there's kind of like a, a priority order here.
- [35:16]
B
It's like the scaffolding of the work. Yeah, yeah, sure. This example, it's reminding me of how in, in this work is like also just to bring in like the, like a systemic or social layer. Is that what I think some of the barriers to really getting to the strength based perspective or the affirmative perspective is that when a child has some behavior that is seen as problematic, sometimes it's actually reflecting on issues in the surroundings. Like for example, if you look at children who have like, who are sensory seeking and really need a lot of tactile input and they will just go and hug everyone they meet because like it's not enough just to say hi, you need to have a big bear hug. Right?
- [36:09]
A
Yes.
- [36:10]
B
And, and, and that is, I mean that's going to become an issue to a touch phobic society.
- [36:19]
A
Yes.
- [36:20]
B
But if the society became, or that context became a little less touchphobic, maybe that could actually be the strength of an, an affectionate person really bringing in affection and connection.
- [36:35]
A
There's so many different ways, you know, that that could go that would be more positive and be, you know, looked at as more positive and celebrated than kind of villainized, you know, as bad behavior. It could even go the other direction, you know, or if you had a child who didn't like to be touched, right then you know what a great friend to the other child doesn't like to be touched. You know, they're going to be feel like, hey, this is a great Friend. And we're in this together and we can do this. It all of those ways of thinking come from getting in this mindset of different ways of navigating are just that their differences and differences are okay, even maybe appreciated and valued instead of a difference is pathologized. I think you were asking early on about neurodiversity affirming care. And I think one of the big things is understanding do you know the difference between a need and a difference? Because they're not the same thing. You know, let's use an example of. Let's try to think of a good sensory processing example since we're on this topic. So if I have a need for. Let's say. Let's say I have a difference in vestibular as one of my main areas where I utilize some supports at times. So I have this difference where if my feet are off the ground, you know, I just start to feel discombobulated, dysregulated. So I, you know, don't ride ski lifts and I don't ride certain roller coasters. If my feet dangle, it's a problem in the air. I do not need to go into any kind of therapy to work on that. I'm over 50 and I'm totally fine that I don't ride ski lifts or certain roller coasters. Maybe nobody should
- [38:58]
B
probably not go skiing
- [39:01]
A
for somebody to come in and go, oh, you know, sounds like you really need to work on that. Let's put you in a therapy. And it's like. But it feels like you want me to work on it. I'm telling you, it doesn't create. That doesn't create a need in my life. You are feeling like it creates a need and want me to work on it. Those are two different things. And there's a lot of that that comes up in neuro Nelly virgin land. A lot of just things that are differences get pathologized and then you gotta work on that when it's really not a need. And trust me, there's plenty of needs. We don't need to go making things up that aren't real needs. There's plenty of places we can come with support needs. But that's something that happens a lot. That's a big piece of understanding neurodiversity in general and implementing neurodiversity affirming care is we don't take things that are just differences and make them therapy needs.
- [40:06]
B
Yeah. And. And just of when you're using that example, it's a. It's Such a reminder that for children and young people that they so often don't have. They're not empowered to, to. To recognize that and speak up for themselves and, and recognize that and say, no, I don't need you to turn this into a therapy need. Like, and that's where you, you point out that this is our job. Like, this is what we need to support the child or teen with, is to empower them so that they can also develop a sense of self where they will be able to advocate for themselves eventually.
- [40:46]
A
Yes, definitely. That's important.
- [40:50]
B
Yeah. We're almost out of time, but I wanted to also just. I wanted to mention that this book is really a wealth of resources. I mean, I just wanted to name a few. You have, like, book lists for the most relevant children's books. You have lists of sensory toys, list of apps, relevant apps. You have a long, detailed list of different types of sensory playtime activities. There's screening tool. There's. There's just so many amazing resources, worksheets. And I was really struck by, like, the clinical creativity. And I think that's, that's the, you know, we talked about all the very difficult things in this work, but, like, that's the. This is like the uplifting things. This is what I love the most about our work, is that.
- [41:41]
A
Yeah.
- [41:41]
B
That it's so inherently creative. And I wonder if you wanted to speak to some of that, because, I mean, I was, like, uplifted reading this. There's all these amazing, amazing activities and things to explore. How is, how is the experience of this the creativity of your work?
- [42:01]
A
Yeah, well, I like it. You know, everything, you know, you're going through those lists, and I'm thinking, yeah, you know, I do all that on myself as well. Like, you know, there's so many sensory and fidget items right around me right now at any moment that I'm just going to grab and utilize. And those apps. Wow. I love sensory apps on my tablet or my phone, I have several. And they're just such cool tools to have handy. And I think getting these things, and certainly there's a lot of good play interventions and techniques, most of those center around sensory regulation work. Just regulating that nervous system because that's such a big deal for kids with sensory differences. In a way, you can really help them, you know, just feel so much better about navigating through a day. But I love, you know, that we can share these things with kids. Like, we can go there and they can discover the sensory app on their tablet or the fidget or Sensory item that they can carry with them and use, like love. Just getting that to them and seeing them discover here is something that helps me, you know, in some way. That's the best part of all of that, is helping them be empowered and see that, you know, what's going on with them is not just this awful thing that they have to wish they didn't have or they have to try to figure out how to get rid of, but just almost in a way kind of from at least their sense of self. Normalizing it as this is just who. Right. And enjoying, you know, being able to access things that make them feel better. That's super rewarding for me when I get to work with kids and families and see that materialize, probably the best part of my work, because I know the impact that's going to have forever for them, that's still going to be a positive impact when they're 20, when they're 30, when they're 40. And yeah, that's probably why I got into this originally drawn to kids who reminded me of me when I was a child. And then thinking that that classic comment, you know, be the person you wish you had, you know, when you were a child, kind of just kept driving me down this road.
- [44:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, I can definitely feel that. Yeah. And you're describing how like the different like toys and tools and apps and all the things are like they become like a shared experience. So like they become tools also for enhancing the relational shared experience. I mean that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Well, Robert, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you about your work. By the end, I wanted to ask you, I know this book actually comes with an online book study course. Uh, and you wanted to speak a bit about that and also if you wanted to share some things about other projects you're working on or new things forthcoming.
- [45:42]
A
Oh, sure, yeah. The, the book itself, you know, obviously it's just a standalone book anybody can get online, but on the AltPlay Therapy website there is a list of published study courses and there is a book course that goes with this book. It's pretty clinic clinical focused, but those people, you know, clinical settings might like that going through the course as they're reading the book, which is always available there on the home study course, self paced book course, and I think we have a one hour, maybe recorded webinar on there as well. One hour or one and a half hours of like creating sensory friendly space, sensory affirming playroom therapy space, et cetera. So some people might find that helpful. Think about the different things that maybe they just haven't even thought about, you know, that would make a difference or the sensory different child coming in to see them. But on that website or all my upcoming trainings, I do a lot on just neurodivergence in general. Neurodiversity, affirmative care. Some live in person and then some live webinar. But they're always listed there on the website.
- [47:05]
B
Okay. A play or stimulating play space. A sensory welcoming. I feel like all schools should have that.
- [47:15]
A
Yes, school would be great place to see some of these changes happen. Mainly because kids spend so much time there. It's such a big environment for them.
- [47:24]
B
Yeah.
- [47:25]
A
Yeah.
- [47:27]
B
Well, thank you so much, Robert. It was such a pleasure to talk with you.
- [47:31]
A
Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
- [47:33]
B
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