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Robert L. Worden and Jane Leung Larson, "A Chinese Reformer in Exile: Kang Youwei and the Chinese Empire Reform Association in North America, 1899-1911" (Brill, 2025)
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:07]
B
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the New Books in East Asian Studies, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. I'm Li Ping Chen, your host for today's episode. Today we will be talking to Robert Worden and Jane Leon Larson about their new book, A Chinese Reformer in Kang Youwei and the Chinese Empire Reform association in North America, 1899-1911. This book was published by Brill this year. In 2025. A Chinese reformer in Exile is an encyclopedic reference book documenting the exile years of Imperial China's most famous reformer, Kang Youwei, and the political organization he mobilized in North America and worldwide to transform China's autocratic empire into a constitutional monarchy. Or at least that's the hope. Chinese in Canada, the United States and Mexico formed at least 160 Chinese empire reform association chapters incorporating schools, newspapers, military academies, women's associations, businesses, and political pressure campaigns. Based on Robert Worden's 1972 Georgetown University Ph.D. dissertation, a multinational team of historians contribute new insight from half a century of additional scholarship and previously unknown archival materials. This book is open access. You can download the book and every chapter from Brillo's website. So this is a brief introduction about the book. And now let's welcome our guest, Robert and Jane. Welcome to the show.
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C
Thank you thank you, Li Ping.
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B
All right, so thank you both and before we started to talk about this amazing book and we want to hear from you guys first, introduce, you know, your background. So, Robert, do you want to begin?
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C
Yes, I'd be happy to. My background, professionally speaking, I worked for the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. for 34 years as an employee on the research staff of the Library. I'd used the Library of Congress as a graduate student at Washington from 1967 onward. And then after I retired in 2007, and I've continued to use the library. So I've got a long history there of doing research. I worked in primarily in the Federal Research division of the Library. And I produced using my Asian Studies background. I produced about a hundred reports and various studies and books, mostly on China, but also other Asian countries. This is Japan, Mongolia, Indonesia, India, Bangladesh and others. So that's what I did for a professional career. I did a little adjunct teaching at Georgetown a couple of times and I was able to, although I was doing a lot of in house publishing at the Library of Congress, I was able to do some personal publishing. And after I completed my dissertation, I did publish several articles in journals about related to my dissertation topic. But then my work at the library kind of took me often other directions into more contemporary affairs in dealing with China. And I got very interested in researching and writing about China and the Third World and particularly about China, Chinese PRC relations and Taiwan relations with Latin American countries. So that was kind of, you know, where I was during my professional career.
- [05:16]
B
All right, thank you, Robert. And especially you mentioned there's a lot of publication. It will be in house with the library, but also academic publishing as well. And now we have this amazing book that we will, we are so excited to talk about, but we have another author here with us. Jim, do you want to talk a little bit about yourself?
- [05:36]
D
I'm happy to do so. My background is totally different from Robert's. I'm half Chinese. My parents are both journalists. My mother is the one who's Chinese. She's a third generation Chinese American. She's a second generation. And my father was very interested in her Chinese background, particularly in her father, Tom Leung, my grandfather, who had died by the time my father came into the family. But my grandfather was a student and disciple of Kang Yehwei, and he immigrated to the US in 1899 to join an herbal practice of his cousin. But he also became involved in the Baohonghui, the Chinese Empire Reform association or Protect the Emperor's Society. And as a result he saved his correspondence. He was very involved between 1899 and 1909, the prime years of Ba Huanghui activity. And my father actually was the one to salvage his material. And these were ultimately all of these letters and so on were donated to UCLA's Asian Library. And I became interested in China early on. I went to China in 1976, and from then I decided I wanted to work in the China field. So I basically worked for nonprofit organizations, educational organizations, beginning in 1979, and became the founding director of the Northwest Regional China Council associated with the Asia Society. And when I moved to New York, worked for China Institute and the committee of 100 until 2013. So through these activities, I met a number of China scholars. And when my mother was writing a book about her family, sweet bamboo, in 1895, she asked me to have the Tom Leung letters translated in. And I began doing this with a professor at Portland State University, where I was living. And then one of the people I met through the China Council, Doug Lee, was a friend of Robert's, and he told me about Robert's dissertation. And that's really what got me involved in really understanding the letters and figuring out, getting involved in the study of the Chinese Empire Reform Association. And as I began to learn about it, I decided it was appropriate, probably for the papers to be published in some form in China. I was able to go in 1990 and met a professor who was involved with the Guangdong Shikuyuan, the Social Sciences Academy. And he ultimately got the papers transcribed and published first in 1997, and then it was once again in 2008. And through all of this, of course, I was making contacts with a number of China scholars, including some of those involved in the book in China, Zhongping Chen in Canada, Evelyn Huda Hart in the United States. And I began a blog, Bao Huanghui Scholarship, which is a Google blog, and have given some papers, written a few articles. But in 2011, the project to do this book was initiated.
- [09:34]
B
All right, thank you, Jane, for sharing. And especially you mentioned your personal connection to this project. And I just want to reiterate again. So Jane mentioned the book that her mother was writing. This is a Sweet Bamboo, A Memoir of a Chinese American Family, and also the Tang Liang Collection. So this is a collection housed in ucla, but you can access it digitally. So if after today's conversation, you would like to know more or see the archival material yourself. So UCLA Digital Archive is where you can find more archival material. So with that, and Jamie also mentioned a little bit about how you get this project started and how you get to know Robert's work. So I guess question for you, Robert, is how do you start this project, especially as grad students? So where did you get the inspiration and where did you get things started?
- [10:34]
C
Well, it's been a long journey. And I was an undergraduate student at Saint Bonaventure University in Western New York. And I had met my then future wife, Norma Chu, who's Chinese, overseas Chinese, born in Jamaica. And I've been interested in more in Latin American history. But as I got to know Norma, more and more, I got very interested in Chinese history. And to the extent that we actually at a university, it had no Asian studies courses, we convinced the history department to gin some up and they did. So my junior and senior years, I was able to begin studying more intensively Asian history, particularly China. When it came time to write a bachelor's thesis, I was scoping around for something. I didn't want to get into more ancient Chinese history. It seemed a little esoteric for me. I didn't want to do anything too modern. So I was looking at what then was one of the most amazing sources. Still is in fact, William Theodore debary's Sources of Chinese Tradition. And I started reading through that book. Actually, Norma had a copy of that book which she loaned to me and we still have in our personal library. And I was reading through and okay, there's this fellow, Kang Yue, 100 days of reform. That sounds. Interesting scene. It's not ancient history by any means. It's not modern history either. Not 20th century. I didn't know about his role in the 20th century at that point. So I wrote a bachelor's thesis on the conservative reaction to the 100 days of reform. So it kind of gave me a start. Well, then I went on to Georgetown University to work on a master's degree and my mentor when Kane came, well, you only have to write a master's thesis. What have you worked on before? And I said, well, I did this paper and this thesis in undergraduate on Kangyui reaction to the 100 days reform, conservative reaction. And so he suggested, well, you should look deeper into his ideological background, into Kang Yue's ideological background. And just where did he come from? What's the basis of his philosophies that led him to become a reformer? So I did. I wrote a master's thesis on that subject on the, you know, the intellectual background, the Kangye way. And around that time, and I'm thinking 1968 or so now, I got my master's in 1969, Kang Yiwei's grandson, Rong Bang Lo, had published a biography on Kangye Wei, which was very extremely useful in my master's thesis. So I still have the master's thesis. And, you know, I gee, I like graduate school. It's kind of fun. I'm learning a lot. I'm enjoying this. So let's keep going for a PhD and during the summer after I got my master's degree, I had little time off. And I've been doing some research at the National Archives and other places on my family genealogy. And I remembered a piece in Rongbang Lo's book that just mentioned kind of in passing, almost not much detail. Then, 1905, Cong Ye Wei was in the United States and had visited President Theodore Roosevelt in the White House and wrote him a long, long letter. Later on, I said, well, that's interesting. I'd like to see that letter. Cause Lowe didn't have the letter. He only knew about it. So the journey actually ended up starting at the Library of Congress. They have the Roosevelt papers. Well, I found a little bit of information that, that the Kong actually did visit Roosevelt. That's. That's good. And they said we wouldn't have any. Any letters like that. The people wrote he would afford that on to the State Department, maybe. Well, that took me to the National Archives. And eventually I found not only that letter, two other letters that Kong wrote to Roosevelt, numerous telegrams, and then a huge file from the Bureau of Immigration, hundreds of pages of documents about Kang Yue and his efforts to enter the United States. He was considered a radical by the US Government. He had a price on his head in China. So the US Government was being a little circumspect. Should we let this man in or not? And basically their answer was, no, we should not let him in to the United States. He could be a troublemaker. But what happened with that treasure trove of documentation I found there? I said, now I have a dissertation topic, a PhD dissertation topic. I fleshed it out also back at the Library of Congress by going through. Once I had developed a chronology of Kong's travels in Canada, United States and in Mexico. I went through the newspapers of the cities that I knew he had traveled to. Now, keep in mind, this is the Dark Ages. Li Ping newspapers by that point were mostly on microfilm. And you sat in a darkened room with a microfilm reader and you turned the crank slowly, slowly, page by page. I had the dates, and I found numerous articles, actually dozens and dozens and dozens of, maybe hundreds of articles. On Kang Yi's visit. So this fleshed out the official documentation from the National Archives, and then I'm finding the. The press coverage. I also began contacting some other people. I was in contact with Rong Vonglo. He actually was one of the informal readers of my dissertation and, and various other people whose names began to come up. And I interviewed or got in contact with some of the children of people who were Kang Yue's disciples in the United States, members of the Bao Huangwei in the United States. It became quite interesting. So I produced this doctoral dissertation. So that's how I got started on this project. And again, I blame it all on my wife getting me interested in Chinese history. She's done an excellent job. We've now been married for 59 years, so we're still learning about China. And as I mentioned a little earlier, after I went for work at the Library of Congress, I did a little of outside publishing and published a few articles on the dissertation topic. And I got driven off in other directions. I had people pulling, asking me to write on more contemporary affairs. And I did that on my own time. And in 1983, I had a. An unsolicited letter, one might say, from a lady named Louise Leung is Jane's mother. She wrote me a letter saying she had just learned about my dissertation, found it very interesting and valuable for work she was doing and, you know, wouldn't I I should consider publishing that. And, well, I responded some months later, I was, I was in the midst of a lot of work at the library and other other projects. I finally wrote back to, to Jane's mother and say, well, thank you very much for your interest. But basically I'm saying, no, I'm not planning to publish a dissertation. I've kind of go off in other directions. I thought, well, you know, good luck with your project. Well, you know, the Leung family is perseveres. And at the association for Asian Studies meeting in Washington D.C. in 1995, I was staffing the Library of Congress booth at that exhibit at that conference, and a young lady named Jane Leung Larson approached me and basically the same question, I know about your dissertation. My mother made use of it and wouldn't you know, shouldn't you publish that? And I think, Jane, I'm so sorry to say this again, I said, not really. I've got other, you know, so much else on my plate right now that I hadn't really considered going back to this. Well, Jane is a very persevering person. And we had some usual context. Douglas Lee, she mentioned another someone I'd never heard of before, Evans Chan. He also was working on Kang Yoe and writing an opera and doing some docudramas on Kang Yehwei. And he contacted me and well, the rest is history. I think by 2011, Jane finally convinced me. Now I'm retired, I should have plenty of time, not really to get involved in publishing this book. So that's kind of where we are. And again, it did take us back into the me, back into the National Archives and some other archives. And then we had these undiscovered or newly discovered archival collections that had been hidden away in attic in Connecticut.
- [19:48]
B
Thank you Robert, for sharing, especially this journey that you know from college days and master degree and graduate students research, but all the way. Also with the different research, the connection and different files, the paper you go through and the material that you found. But also as you mentioned, the Liang family, their persistence, they would like to see this history research published. And finally 2025 we have this book. And so with this, Jan, you have other things to add.
- [20:33]
D
Well, I guess I'm sort of the cause of this book, but I wasn't even aware that my mother wrote Robert until he sent me a copy of her letter because he keeps everything. So that's a wonderful aspect of Robert which I've discovered as we work together. And he's dug up things from the late 60s where he did his original research.
- [21:06]
B
All right, so this book is decades in the making through different generations and also, as genuine mentioned earlier, a trans Pacific network of collaboration with scholars, historians. And so now this book is about Kang Yowei. But for some of the reader might already hear about Kang Yowei, given he was one of the most renowned Chinese reformer back in the Qing dynasty. But can you just before we talk about the exile, briefly introduce Kang Yowei and then who is this person and why is he one of the most famous reformer in the Qing China and also modern China as well?
- [21:55]
D
Well, Kong was born in 1858. He came from a scholarly family, scholar officials. He was from Nanhai and he was trained as a Confucian. Confucian scholars. As a Confucian scholar to pass the exams, he sort of quickly lost interest in that. But he actually gave up his formal education when he was about 20 and happened to go to Hong Kong and was completely transformed by that experience.
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C
Seen.
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D
The positive collaboration of the west and the East, I guess he began to read widely, to be influenced by translations of Western writers. But he also spent a lot of time by himself in meditation and Rumination and devising his own theories of this and that which led him to conceive of Confucius as the reformer, which was a book he wrote with his students later on. He was very open to the world, a word frequently used to describe as cosmopolitan. And he certainly did blend Chinese and Western thought in his work. He loved to travel, he had curiosity about everything. He saw himself as a very exceptional person, as a sage, as a visionary. And in fact, he wrote China's first utopia, Datongshu, a one world, one language, one people, no nations, completely different from the nationalism that he propagated as a politician and as a Qing reformer. But he was very self confident and he began to write extremely detailed blueprints for reform, always with constitutional monarchy as the end point, basically a constitutional system under the Chinese emperor. But the Chinese emperor wouldn't necessarily have much power. He began memorializing the emperor, the young emperor Guang Xiu, in 1888 when he was 30, but basically had little influence until 1895 when he organized perhaps one of the first rallies of Chinese scholars in Beijing to oppose the signing of the Shimonoseki Treaty to end the Sino Japanese War. And he made speeches about his proposals, his detailed proposals for reform in every aspect, economic, educational, military, political. And this was like his first experience as a politician, I think. And that's what we really feature in our book, his ability to mobilize people and to bring like a systematic goal of constitutional reform to a broad audience. And after 1895 he became well known because his ideas, his speech and so on was publicized in newspapers. And in the 1890s in Guangzhou, he established this sort of alternative school, this Confucian academy. Thatched hut among 10,000 trees is the translation 1 Wu Tsao Tang. And that's where he met Tom Leung and Leung Qiqiao, his most famous student in reform and disciple, where they wrote together, Confucius as a reformer, his book. And he cultivated these disciples who would become basically his, his activist core when he was in exile. And they were active both in China and outside of China. So I think he was very successful as someone who was able to organize and galvanize a public, knew how to, was completely confident, meeting kings and presidents and speaking to Chinese overseas groups. He first began using the power of a group to organize, to influence policy. When he organized in his own village in Nanhai, an anti foot binding organization which was opposed by a lot of people. This was back in 1883, and eventually came to organize even in China, these politically oriented organizations in 1895 and 1898.
- [27:18]
B
All right, so Kanye Wei, and specifically as Jamie introduced, is the person who is sort of have this early encounter with the west and this experience led to this kind of change. And he himself, being open minded, cosmopolitan, and also relatively progressive, want to change China and want to sort of plan out and propose reform for every aspect. And so with that, but not everybody is on board. Some people are not happy about these changes and some people even, not just against it, but really want to sort of stop the reform. So especially, you know, this book is about exile. So why was Kang exile? And you know, what's that exile look like? And how did he, I mean, feel about this kind of exile? He has all these ideas about China but cannot carry it out.
- [28:25]
C
Yeah, his exile seems way too radical for China at the time. Keeping in mind China has gone through nearly a century of, of embarrassment, of invasions, Opium War, several Opium wars, Taiping Rebellion, certainly upsetting the nation. The Sino Japanese War, a tremendous defeat for the Chinese people. And Jane has done a good job of kind of summarizing where he was at as 1898 comes along. There were certainly other reformers or other progressive men in the Chinese court and in the government, but he was, you know, much more radical than the rest of them. He did get the ear of the Guangzhou Emperor and was appointed to nominally a secretarial position, but having that entree, then he began to write reform proposals. And this was not just any simple reform. He really wanted to change the nation, establish it as. Establish a nationality of China, but also to really modernize the government, the court system, the military academia, begin to promote the idea of giving the people of China a voice. This is still a little premature, but he began to some of his suggestions and the Guangxu Emperor was embracing these and they were publishing these, starting off rather modestly. And then as the summer went on, and by the way, the 100 days of reform began on June 11th, and it lasted until September 21st, 1898. It's actually 102 days, but everybody calls it the 100 days. And as the summer progressed, the reform decrees were getting too radical and they were abolishing sinecures, doing away with people's jobs. The Empress Dowager who had kind of receded some years earlier, she's very upset about all this because she perceives, rightly that she's going to lose her power. And so come mid September, the conservative factions begin to realize they need to save their necks. So they rise up, they get some support from military Yuan Shikai, who the reformers believed was on their side. But Yuan Shikai was on his own side basically, and he did not support them. At a critical moment, six of the reformers were arrested and summarily decapitated, including Kang Yue's brother. Kang had been warned and Liang Chichao been warned to leave Beijing, and they did. Kang Yue escaped through Tianjin on a, a British ship, got to Shanghai, continued on another British ship to Hong Kong, and he now was, was exiled with a, a price on his head. Anybody who, who could capture him and bring him back alive would be amply rewarded. So he, he became an exile not because he wanted to, but because he wanted to save his own neck. Because he knew, he believed, he believed a lot about himself. He was, he was very self assured. He knew that he could return to power someday. He didn't really have much power yet, but if he could return to China, he could still enact reform. But now he's out of the country and he's going to be for a long time. And I think that leads into from Hong Kong, he spent some time in Japan, then he was off to the New World, to Canada.
- [32:29]
B
All right, so Kang, your way now has price on his head and out of China and then traveling to different places and as you mentioned, you know, Hong Kong, Japan and Canada. And this book is about his experience and his journey in North America. And chapter one, discuss specifically this particular starting point in North America or I should specify Canada. So why Canada? Why starting from why Khan choose Canada or why he ended up starting from there and choose Canada as the founding place for the Chinese Empire Reform Association?
- [33:15]
D
Well, I think it chose him because he was already well known. He sailed from Japan to Victoria B.C. in Canada and arrived April 7, 1899. And even in quarantine after getting off the ship, he went into quarantine and his name was recognized on his luggage by a man who would become a big activist in the Baohonggui, who was actually the Chinese immigration interpreter who organized a welcome delegation on the wharf and then invited him to his home to meet with other Chinese Canadian and merchants. So he was famous when he arrived. He was, I suppose, rather taken aback by this, but he began to, because his plan at that point was to go and he did do this. He was hoping to go to the US which he was not allowed to do at that point, but also the United Kingdom to gain military and diplomatic support to overthrow the Empress Dowager and return the Emperor to power. But he began meeting with Chinese Canadians as well as with Canadian leaders and was getting A much better sense of the concerns of overseas Chinese. And he began giving these large public speeches almost immediately after landing, talking about the fact that Guangxi's reforms were needed to strengthen China, and if China was stronger, they could protect the Chinese overseas from all of the discrimination they were facing. But he also talked about the fact that they needed to unite as a group and not fight amongst themselves, stand up for their own rights and be aware of how they were perceived by the foreigners, which means, you know, clean up their act, literally and figuratively. One of the projects of the Baohongwei at one point in Canada were bathhouses. But he also mentioned, and this was something, apparently he had talked about it much earlier, was establishing a large Chinese commercial corporation amongst Canadian, American, Australian Chinese that would invest in China and particularly in industry in China. And this really caught the attention of the Vancouver Chinese, who were pretty successful entrepreneurs. And they began to talk about it after Kong left British Columbia and proceeded east. So when he returned to Canada in the summer, and he had failed completely to get British support to topple the Empress Dowager, he began meeting with the leaders in Victoria and Vancouver, and in July 1899, founded this dual purpose organization, which had dual purpose in the sense is that it was both political and business oriented. And in fact, initially the name was the company to protect the Great Qing Emperor rather than the association, but it really was the political association Protect the Emperor Society, Ba Huanghui, that rose to the fore very quickly to restore the Emperor so he could carry on his reforms. And the English name of Chinese Empire Reform association was actually suggested by the man who first spotted him in the quarantine. So Li Mengjiu, who would become a leader of the Baohonghui as well. So that's how it got its start.
- [37:36]
B
Wow. From the name on the luggage. Right. So this actually, you know, tell us that Kanye Wei is actually very famous, not just in China, but also among the overseas Chinese as well. And in this, as Jamie mentioned, shows Kanye Wei's ability to sort of, kind of get people together, mobilize people, resources and connection and giving speeches, and then try to sort of get people together and eventually have this association, Bao Huang Hui. And so now we know, you know, how it got started from Canada and also how, you know, people got involved, involved in the very beginning, the Victorian Canada, and later on, Kang again traveled throughout the world and eventually returned to North America. And Chapter three, specifically talk about the Bao Huanghui network. And as Jane, you mentioned, it's kind of this kind of dual layered. It's both political but also business oriented organization. And specifically, how the Bahuanghui network penetrate Chinese community in North America, Especially through the efforts of Khan's followers.
- [39:03]
D
Okay, well, I will begin really with Kong's moves. Because he was the one who made the initial moves. In September of 1899. He actually summoned to Vancouver leaders that he had been in contact with from Portland, Seattle and San Francisco and mobilized them. And some of those people remained his longtime followers. And he also sent emissaries from Canada to the United States. And there they gave speeches, founded local chapters. Some of these chapters were founded by local people, of course. Many of them were, but there was this mobilization. He wrote a charter in October for the organization. Which basically formalized its transnational nature. And set out the goals of mobilizing chapters, publishing newspapers. Because they wanted to both have propaganda and to educate people about the world and about Chinese issues. Political reform. It mentioned banks and other businesses. Primarily, the idea at that point was businesses in China to counter the foreign control of Chinese businesses. And it was structured with the president, who would be him, a headquarters. And that would be in Asia, in Hong Kong or Macau or Japan, that would receive donations and distribute them for various activities. As well as all these local chapters. And supposedly, well, all the positions were to be publicly elected. But of course, Kong never had to go through an election. And it also specified in the charter that the chapter should hold weekly meetings. They should read newspapers together, have speeches, group singing. He wrote songs eventually for the Baohonggui. And then also communicate with other chapters, which they would do through posters and group letters that were sent, duplicated and sent around, as well as these newspapers that were established. So at that point in 1899, I guess there were chapters in the U.S. canada, Southeast Asia, Australia and Japan. And it later expanded to Africa, Europe and Latin America. But in 1900, Kong said his closest disciples to begin proselytizing for the organization. Liang Qiqiao and two others, Xiu Qian and Liang Qi Tian, who was Liang Qichao's cousin. And they traveled the world, all over the world, and organized chapters, made speeches. And then, of course, there were these grassroots local leaders who formed chapters.
- [42:20]
B
Yeah. With all this establishing of chapters in different parts of the world. And we can see that the effort, the reform effort, kind of expand. And later on we will talk about their different kind of project as well. But specifically in North America, or I should specify it, in Los Angeles. So this is where Kahn stayed for two months in 1905, in the spring of 1905, and specifically this two month. And live with Tang Lian. And what happened during these two months? And then why is Kang in Los Angeles?
- [43:05]
D
Kang came to the United States from Canada in February 1905. And he arrived in Los Angeles on March 15. And he arrived with a case of bronchitis. He really wanted arrest. And he intended to spend time with his disciple Tom Leung, who lived there. And so the Los Angeles chapter rented him a house across from Westlake park, which is today MacArthur park, with a lake. And it was a place that he felt very comfortable because there was fishing, rowing, there was a grass for him to lie on and write poems, et cetera. And nearby was Tom Leung, his student. And another key person, who was a neighbor, was Homer Lee, who I'll talk about in a second. But Kong really thought LA was the most excellent place in America, he said, because he thought it was, compared to what he had seen already, I guess sort of excelled in material civilization, was what he called it, which was basically modern science and industrial development. A good infrastructure, a very pleasant life for the people, with excellent scenery, weather, good housing, orange trees, mountains, valleys, et cetera, good transportation. And so he felt that it was epitomized, sort of a good life and what China should aspire towards in the future. But there were two issues that came forth that made his trip not so restful. And it was in part spurred by the American press, which was quite avid in covering him at that point, particularly interested in scandals as well. And they liked to stir things up. And there were two issues that came to the fore. One was the Western Military Academy, which is a network of thriving Ba Huanghui military schools that Kong was very much behind. But there were American folks involved as the chief leaders. And they began to compete with each other. And scandals erupted, and the governments became involved. The government, both of them of California and New York, as well as the Department of War in the US were wondering whether these schools were training Chinese cadets to train forces on American soil to overthrow the Chinese government, which was illegal. And then the other issue that came to the fore was the Chinese exclusion policy. And there were two honored guests at Kong's welcome dinner in LA on March 18 that foreshadowed these two issues. One was Homer Lee, who was an American, someone who was just barely out of college. He hadn't even graduated from Stanford. But he had convinced Tom Leung and other Bao Hongwei leaders and Kong himself and Leung Qichao when he visited in 1903, that he would be able to lead a military academy and train Chinese members, men, how to be soldiers, basically. So they greeted Kong at the restaurant where the banquet was held with their cadets carrying their rifles and swords. And the other person was Wang Yap, who was an official who had represented Guangdong and Guangxi at the 1904St. Louis World's Fair the year before. And the press thought this was really unusual, that a Qing official would be approving Kang Yowei, who was the most wanted man in China. But Wang called him the greatest light in the Chinese world today. At any rate, the two issues again. Homer Lee had been involved with the bao Honghui since 1900, in fact, when he claimed that he could help in the military restoration of the emperor in a project in an upraising that Kong and others were planning at the time. And he went to Asia. He was funded through the associations in San Francisco and Los Angeles. Kong might have met him. We don't know. He was meant to have been met. He didn't play any role in this uprising, which failed pretty quickly. But he returned to the US and he remained close to Ba Huangwei leaders. He met Leong Qichi when He came in 1903 and impressed him. So the Western Military Academy was founded in 1904. And Kong thought it was a wonderful thing. And when Kong arrived in 1905, it was in 30American cities by that point, with Huanghui branches. So Kong learned that Homer Lee was describing himself as the commander of the Chinese Imperial Army. He wasn't talking about the Western Military Academy, which was the way it was incorporated in California. But Lee was portraying himself as a commander and his students as military forces. And another self titled American general. He was even more of a pretender than Lee and had a much longer background in deception and had been involved in the San Francisco Western Military Academy. Came to Los Angeles, met Kong, claimed to be the commander of the Chinese Imperial Reform army. Got a lot of press and Kong was put on the spot. He had to make a written statement declaring Lee the head of the military school, saying that there was no army. And the two commanders or instructors or whatever they were, began to get publicity. They continued to speak to the press about their own military pretensions and created suspicion, very serious suspicion on the part of these governors in California, in New York and the War Department of violating neutrality laws. So the controversy continued as Kong traveled through the US And Kong was forced to dismiss Lee and announced the closure of the Western Military Academy by the end of 1905. So it really had a. There was a very bad result of these. The American involvement in this project. The other element that came to the fore in Los Angeles was Wong Yap, who had been in. He was actually Tom Leung's wife's cousin. So he was a relative of Tom Leung and had been staying with the family in Los Angeles since December 1904, when the world fairs closed. And he should have been exempt from exclusion laws. But the Chinese who participated in the St. Louis World's Fair were under 61 special rules limiting their activities in the United States because there was so much fear that they would remain longer than they after the fair was over. Well, Wang had a right to remain. But the Los Angeles Chinese inspector didn't know this. Wong had been getting a lot of publicity himself. You know, his coverage of, you know, he appeared at the greeting dinner for Kong and so on. And so he came to Tom Leung's home and tried to arrest Wang. And it created such a stir, and Wang was so resistant that even though the San Francisco Chinese inspector finally told the LA Chinese inspector that Wang was legal, it was really a very embarrassing thing. There were lots of articles in the newspaper. Wong was defiant. He decided to. He said he would seek damages from the U.S. state Department. He left LA, headed east to D.C. and there was publicity across the country about his affront and his anger at being almost arrested and questioned. And so Kong obviously heard about this very directly. And he'd been intending to meet President Roosevelt from the beginning of his trip to Israel, the United States, and speak to him about exclusion. And at that time, there was great pressure from the U.S. to renew a treaty, the Gresham Young Treaty of 1894, that barred Chinese workers from the U.S. and restricted Chinese immigration very heavily. And the Chinese minister in the US was resisting his pressure fairly successfully. But he was also alerting Chinese in the US how dire the situation was. At the same time, a new minister, US Minister to China, William Rockhill, was on his way to Beijing to pressure the Qing to sign the treaty. And it was happening while Kong was in la, so Kong felt he had to take action. And so around May 1, we're not exactly sure. A week before he left Los Angeles, Kong telegraphed Liang Qichao, who was in Japan, editors of the Bao Hongqei newspaper, Shi Bao in Shanghai, and Bao Huanggui leaders in Hong Kong, urging them to send telegrams, organize rallies, do anything they could, and arouse public anger, saying it was a life or death matter and that the Qing should not sign this treaty. And there was immediate response from the telegram recipients. Liang Qichao sent out a letter to all the Bao Hong Kui people. The Shanghai editors met with the Shanghai Chamber of Commerce. And on May 10, the Shanghai Chamber of Commerce then declared a boycott, an anti American boycott to protest the exclusion policies. And Kong left LA and for the rest of this his trip, he was involved with exclusion issues. Church leaders in St. Louis and meeting Roosevelt, meeting Chinese, raising funds to support the boycotters, boycotting merchants in China and so on. So LA turned out to be quite a very eventful period of time for Kong.
- [55:53]
B
Indeed, even though it's only eight weeks. But as Jane told us, that there's a lot of things happening. Khan really like la, think this is great. And I believe the Westlake area he stayed is pretty luxurious. The house and neighborhood and things like that. So it's a good life. But in terms of a political kind of like project here, we have a lot of controversy for the military academies. There are some of the people claim to be the general, I mean self appointed or there's some imposter saying that they have appointment by Khan. And also on the other side, the Chinese Exclusion Act. So I just want to add some background here. The Chinese Exclusion act of 1882, this is a federal law that targeted Chinese people, so prohibited immigration of Chinese laborers. But there are some exemptions. For example, the government officials or the business merchants and also students. So this is where, as Jim mentioned, Wan Yap, the Qing official can still enter officially. But as we know now, even though they have the official permit to enter United States, there's a lot of difficulty and challenges they encounter. So they are being constantly harassed to show their paper, their approval, and they are constantly being surveillanced, things like that. So not just for one y the Qing official, there are a lot of examples about the Chinese students as well and other merchants who actually officially is in the exemption class, but still got harassed and a lot of challenge during the Chinese exclusion period. And I think this is again connected to Khan's effort to try to sort of solve the situation. And especially in chapter 6 and 7 we see Khan and also the Bao Huanghui members. They are very active. They engage in the American politics and Chinese American community. They have different project, different campaign. And can you tell us more about what they do politically, especially in United States politics?
- [58:28]
C
Yeah, I. I'd like to jump in on that one. And Jane. Well, first of all, Jane mentioned about the American newspapers. They, they really liked to write about Kong Yue and they had a lot of misinformation about him. They didn't understand really who he was. He was being called a. A Prime minister, a former prime minister. A prince, a potentate, a noble, a sage, all sorts of titles. Occasionally a more perceptive reporter might really get to the hub of it. About this trying to restore the Guangxu emperor to his throne. So the newspapers played kind of a important role in his trip. Because they would feed the next city that he's going to visit. They said, well, as they said, Los Angeles. Look what he did there. And they would go to St. Louis and on and on. So the American newspapers played a prominent role. In informing people. Or misinforming people about Kong the Baohuang way. I'd like to say, too, that wherever Kong traveled. In each city or state. He wanted to meet the local American politicians. The mayors, the governors. Any kind of official people. The heads of various institutions. He visited factories, even prisons. He visited heads of all sorts of missionary activities. Individuals who had been to China as missionaries came back and trying to support. They generally supported the whole protection of. I should say, the oppose the Chinese exclusion. Now, Kang also, he interacted. When he got to the Chinatowns. Throughout the Canada, the United States, and Mexico. Of course, he would meet the elite of Chinatown. The leaders of the Chinatowns. And they were typically the merchants. Who were fairly well to do. They were literate. But he also has beginning. I think it begins to change some of his thinking. He's meeting these laborers. Those who did make it into the United States. Who had been there from before 82, 1882. Many of them who already were here. Or had been born here. And actually had the right of citizenship. But they weren't necessarily literate people. They were laborers. And I think he began to see the discrimination against them and their suffering. And he, I think, began to feel more deeply about that. He also, and this is very interesting. We haven't mentioned at all about the women. His own daughter, Kang Tung Bi, also came to the United States. And she and the other Baohuang leaders. Formed women's Baohuang Hui chapters. And there were women members and women officers. And Kang Tung Bi was one of those. They published posters with photographs of the members. The women members is so interesting. And her photograph was on there. So she herself is a main character in our book. There's many vignettes in our book. You heard about Wong? Yep. There's many, many other such vignettes. That's why this book got to be encyclopedic. So there's a lot there. Now, the other thing that hasn't been mentioned. That certainly gets involved in politics. Both in. In the United States and in China. Is there's some competitors out there, Sun Yat Sen and his people who were revolutionaries, revolutionists, they want to overthrow the Qing government. Kang wants to keep it and restore the Emperor's constitutional monarch, Sun Yat Sen. His followers want to do away with the whole thing. This appeals to people too, some people, but initially throughout most of this period, Jane and I found that, that through the letters are being written the press covering not only the English language press, but the Chinese language press, is that the Ba Huang Hui was way out in the front of organizing people politically in the Chinatowns. And these networks that Zhongping Chen wrote about were in large part were the work of Kang, the Liang Sichao and, and these other leaders of the Baohuanghui. And I think too that Kang's always trying to, I think gain influence for himself. He's a great one. He's a good self promoter and he also had a good companion, nominally a secretary, Jogo Shin, who was educated in Great Britain and was fluent in English as I think a charismatic man in his own right. And he did a lot of the speaking if they needed an English language speech, you know, maybe Congate gave the gist what he once said, but, but, but Joe was the one who would be often speaking to the English language press and representing sort of his PR man, so to speak. So again, another little vignette, another character who, who plays a fairly large role in our story. So this, by the time Kong gets to Washington D.C. and he's been in numerous other cities, St. Louis and Chicago, he got to Washington, they made a side trip back to Pittsburgh, then back to Washington, he went to Baltimore, he got to Philadelphia, but he's meeting, finally meets with Theodore Roosevelt and he really must make an impression because Roosevelt decreed immediately that the so called Chinese inspectors who are the, the Bureau of Immigration people who are abusing Chinese entrance, people entering the United States or who already were living here, it's somewhat reminiscent of what's going on today. Roosevelt said let's, let's put a stop to that. You know, keep following the law, inspect these people, but be kind to them, be gentle to them, be respectful of them the way we should be. So Kong certainly he influenced Roosevelt. He later wrote this very, very long letter typed out. Kang bought a typewriter. Jogo Shen typed out these letters. They go on for 10, 15, 20 pages, typewritten, explaining their opposition to Chinese exclusion. Then later talking about why CIXI should be overthrown and why should restore the Emperor. He's trying to influence these political figures, I think maybe that addresses some of your questions there. But Kang certainly is meeting a wide spectrum of people throughout the United States, both the Chinatown elites, but also the other non Chinese elites if you will, of everywhere he traveled to.
- [65:45]
A
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- [66:12]
B
Experian Busy, busy. So as Robert, you mentioned that Kang make a point that wherever he travel, he meet the local leadership, I mean the mayors, the American intellectual there, but as well as the people and the leaders in the local Chinese American community as well. So in a way that to kind of mobilize people, to get people together and also to sort of kind of promote his idea, his reform. And so one thing I also want to add that Robert, you mentioned Professor Chen Zhongping's book. So for our listeners, if you want to know more about in addition to Kanye Way and also at this period of time, another political organization or effort to kind toppled a Qing dynasty, this is led by Sun Yat Sen and they also have a lot of transpacific connection as well. So this book by Professor Chen Zhongping is called Trans Pacific Reform and Revolution the Chinese in North America 1898-1918. And I also interviewed Professor Chen in New Books Network. So if you want to go to previous episode, I believe that's in March 2024. We have an episode for you as well. So with that said, back to Kanye. So in United States, meeting local national leadership and also the community members. But he traveled a lot. So outside of United States, another designation that this book also cover is Mexico. So in Mexico he's also having a lot of different projects. So can you tell us a little bit more about how the Ba Huanghui network and also their business ventures in the Latin America, specifically Mexico? Sure.
- [68:27]
D
The Baohong hui had about 25 chapters in Latin America that we've discovered so far. 12 in Mexico particularly, that was the main country, but also in the Caribbean, in Cuba and Jamaica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama and Peru. So there may be others as well. Kong was fascinated by Latin America and it was a focus of the organization early on between 1901 and 1903. Two of Kong's closest disciples, Xiu Qin and Liang Qi Tian, made extensive journeys to the region, both to recruit members but to check out investment opportunities. Because Kong had seen Latin America as an area fruitful for colonization by Chinese who could develop the undeveloped lands. And it wasn't just Mexico that he looked at. He also thought about Brazil, I know, in Latin America. But he saw actual Chinese settlements for people who had little opportunity in their homeland. So investment was an important aspect. And there were euphoric letters sent back from these two disciples extolling the accomplishments of the Chinese in these communities, particularly the border town of Torreon and Wanfun. Chuk or Huang, Huang Quanzhuo, who was a real go getter. He had come to the United States and ended up in Mexico eventually. But he established these large vegetable gardens that grew vegetables for the Mexicans. Basically he managed hotels. And he'd even begun planning at that point a China Mexico steamship line. And at this period before 1911, before 1910, the President, Porfirio Diaz, really was welcoming Chinese investment and settlement. And Kong was also encouraged by one of his American friends, one of his extraordinary American friends, Charles Flint, who was the father of the Trust. He was called an industrial magnate, but he was an international businessman with whom Kong had lots of contacts throughout his exile. But he had done a lot of business in Latin America and really encouraged Kong to pursue it too. So Kong first went to Mexico right after his trip in the US in December 1905. And he was hosted by Wong Funchuck and Torreon, who pretty quickly convinced him to get the Baohonggui involved in launching a branch of the banks, the Hawaii Yinhuang Banks that had already been founded in Hong Kong and New York, a branch in Torreon. He also became involved. Kong became involved with Wang's encouragement, buying and selling land like stir frying land, because it was so easy to make a quick profit that way in Torreon. And then he also got involved in promoting a couple of streetcar lines in Torreon, which was a very modern city. And amongst other projects they pursued and completed was a three story stone building that still stands to house the bank. It was called and still is called Banco Chino by the Mexicans. And he went back to. Kong was very active this first trip. And he went back in 1906 and 1907. And as time progressed, particularly in 1907, Kong began to take a less rosy outlook towards, towards the Bao Hongqe enterprises in Mexico because of the huge investments required. I mean, there was a Lot of money required, for example, to cement the franchises for the streetcar lines. And Kong was trying to extract profits from other Ba Huangwei businesses to use. And in 1907 there was the panic of 1907 on Wall street that began in October. Bank panic led to a worldwide depression. And this affected Mexico. The land prices went down a lot. And so eventually even before 1911, the businesses had to be sold one by one at a loss. Including the building housing. So there was a very tragic ending to all of this that was rather ironic. It was the 1911 Mexican Revolution and there was a lot of anti foreign sentiment against the Chinese. Who of course were pretty prominent in the business world there. And a lot of resentment by the Mexicans under them, working for them, going to their stores, et cetera. And there was a tremendous. There was a huge massacre in Torreon. And it was the largest anti Chinese massacre in north in the Americas. Actually 303 Chinese were killed in May 1911, including one of Kong's relatives. So this basically ended the enterprise. People like Juan Fu Chuk and so on. Basically a lot of people were dead. And people no longer really tried to assert their businesses as much as they had. So it was a rather sad ending. But Latin America was important. There may have been a women's association there. There probably was. There were 12 chapters in Mexico. Mexico City was important. Kong met with President Diaz. So it was an important place for him. But it became part of his downfall and part of the Bao Hong Kui downfall, frankly.
- [75:30]
B
Yeah. As we see that there are so many different business project banks. And why not. But later on they seem to end in a way that not so ideal for Kang and Ba Huanghui. Especially in Mexico and Latin America. But so these are the projects and some of the ventures have in Latin America. But now let's move back to United States. And specifically in the following chapter. This is specifically chapter eight, chapter nine. There's you guys listed in details about all this kind of business venture. They have. They have the banks, they have the newspaper publishing outlets, transportations they once has the railroads, steamships. And why not also different companies. For example about textile, fishing, rice, so on and so forth. And among them there is one that is about restaurant in Chicago. And later on there are some of the controversy about that restaurant in Chicago. So can you tell us more about these business ventures in United States and specific about this King Joy Lo restaurant?
- [76:54]
D
Yes, the King Joy Lo restaurant was the only commercial corporation business with. With really extensive records. Historical records. Not really business records, but historical records that give US an interior view of how these Bao Hongqi businesses were run, and particularly the effect of Kong's micromanaging, his oversight, his involvement in trying to move money around. And it was started by Tom Leung, the idea for it, for a restaurant, Chinese restaurant, because he wanted to emulate, I guess, the affluence that he saw and that Kong saw of some of the Ba Huangwei leaders in New York and Chicago who were restaurateurs who had very successful restaurants and for Chinese, for non Chinese particularly. So these were like Chinese American restaurants. And they seemed to be very rich men. So it was assumed they had a lot of profit. But Tom Leung wasn't interested in it as a restaurant project as such. What he was interested in was he saw it as a way to earn money to support students studying abroad in Europe, in Japan, in the United States, Hong Kui students. And it was something he had supported for some time, both privately and trying to get the Baohonghui interested. And they were interested in this particular project. So King Joy lo opened in December 1906. And at that point, and, and probably for years after, it was considered Chicago's most extravagant Chinese restaurant was in the Theater district in the Loop rather than Chinatown. It was the first restaurant with apparently like a street level dining and entrance and two stories of dining. And it had a very large initial capital stock, at least on paper, $100,000, which was, I think the closest one was 21,000 of another Chinese restaurant in Chicago. And it survived for 20 years. It was managed by the Bao Hongqei and the commercial corporation until 1912, and then sold to a consortium of Boston and New York Bao Huanghui members, leaders. And they finally closed the restaurant in 1926. It had a very good reputation in Chicago. Dignitaries dined there, banquets, wedding banquets, and Robert can talk about all of the publicity they put out. But its reputation was at odds with the troubles that it caused for the Bao Hong Kui, which were unknown to the Chicago press. For example, Tom was in charge, Tom Leung was in charge of getting shareholders, getting loans, dispersing support to students and members. And the members in Chicago who were successful restaurateurs were the ones, in fact, who built and managed King Joy Lo. And Kong initially thought it would only cost $10,000 to open this restaurant. Well, in fact, it cost, with using their investments, their share investments, the loans and credit, at least $118,000 because they did extensive renovations to the building. They installed state of the art gas station gas engines in the basement to generate power. They had you know, lots of furniture, kitchen equipment, decorations, much of it imported from China. So beginning in the spring 1907, Kong wanted to. He began to want to extract tens of thousands of dollars from King Joy Lo to put into his Mexican businesses and other bajongwe businesses that were needing money and there were no profits for extraction. I think at that point maybe they were making $50 a day profit. At least that's what was claimed in the documents. But because Kong at that point was involved in so many high cost startup projects during a depression, it really was greatly stressful on him. And he began to attack the business managers. Basically Tom Leung Wong Funchuck was attacked. He accused them of incompetence, greed and embezzlement. There was a big scandal because Kang accused Tom of appropriating $80,000 meant for King Jailo. That's basically how he was known until we found out more about him because it was a big scandal amongst the Bao Hongqi people. And Tom Liang basically retreated from the Bao Hong Kui in 1909 and and published a booklet in January of 1909 in which he duplicated all the correspondence from Kong about King Joy Lo, including the encouraging letters initially about establishing the restaurant and then going on to these recriminating letters and his responses and along with his defense of his actions and some accounting of transactions. And it didn't help Tom Liang's reputation much. People like Liang Qichao and Xiu Qian were much more convinced by Kong's accusations. But Tom's booklet ended up being one of a group of things, but exposing Kong's autocratic, often contradictory behavior and his chaotic business practices. And because, you know, it was publicized by Tom Ling, it was sent out. The booklet was sent out to other members. And then along with other business scandals, it would really demoralize Bao Huanghui members, caused them to question the trust they had in Kong and then in the whole organization.
- [83:44]
B
Yeah. So the restaurants, the King Joy Low restaurant in Chicago. So it's as Jane you mentioned, eventually the money and the asset invested in is a lot of more times than they expected. And if readers, if audience you are interested in the books, they included one of the first advertisement and then it's in page five. Now if you happen to have the book with you and they say this King Joy Little restaurant is the finest Chinese American restaurant in the world. So not just Chicago, not just the United States, but it's in the whole world. So you can imagine the scale of kind of luxury and upscale and state of the art equipment for Cooking, fine dining and things like that. But again, this is a high cost project along with other high cost project, especially in that difficult economic time. And eventually there's a lot of controversy and scandal in terms of the financial handlings as well. And with that, so we talk about the business ventures and different business project in Latin America, in United States specifically. And chapter 10 focus on, and also around this period, 1906 to 1908, about the political side of Khan's career. And this is generally considered as a very critical period of transition for Kang Yowei. So what happened during this period and what's the transition?
- [85:32]
C
Well, I think as you're hearing here, that Kang is a very complex individual and he's now moved in, gone through Canada, United States and Mexico back to the United States, made several trips to all these countries, all three of these countries. But things are going on in the world too, like the panic of 1907, which is a major setback. And also the revolutionists Sun Yat sends, they're beginning to get a little more influence. They're beginning to, to say, well, these Ba Hong Hui people are, you know, they're all, they're all back where they just want to keep doing the same thing. And I, I just want to drop back to just mention something a little bit a little earlier period. That background in the 1900 when Kong was involved in the potential uprising, he had, he had another, he had another scheme. Baohong had another scheme that they were going to bring over. They brought over to the United States a young woman named Shui Jianchin. And she was going to be educating the United States. She's going to study martial arts. She was going to become very proficient in foreign information, Western information. And then she was going to go back to China and somehow become involved in the Imperial court because they knew that cixi, she was kind of interested in foreign things. Now her interest in foreign cultures was growing. She had photographers coming in. She met the wife of the US Ambassador, was kind of one of her ladies in waiting almost for a time. So the idea that Shui Jianchin was going to go back, worm her way into the court and assassinate cixi, is this an incredible story that is not been much told until our book here. This whole thing about assassinations is it preys on Kang's mind. He was threatened with death. He escaped several assassination attempts himself, which we document in the book. Well, he also was sort of a vengeful person. He knew that the revolutionaries, Sun Yat Sen's people would like to see him depart the Scene maybe assassinate him. Well, they come up with a scheme. Well, let's assassinate Sun Yat Sen. And Kang actually, when he was in New Hartford, Connecticut, went to the Colt gun factory and actually bought weapons there for himself and for other people. And just as a little side story about Kang Tung PI, who's one of the great heroes of our whole story, she was asked if she would like to fire a machine gun and she did. And she hit the target every time. Time. They all were astounded. I personally, I've fired machine guns before. They are not easy to fire. And here's this, this rather petite woman who's who took one in in under her control and fired it. But so they and Kang y bought armor for himself even because he was afraid of being assassinated. Now he's moving into this period 1906-8. Things are happening in China now too. I mentioned Su Qi's taking a little bit of interest in in. In Western ways. And there's movements to begin to enact some constitutional reforms. And of course the Kang's all in favor of that. To the extent that they changed the name of the Baohuanghui to the Di Guo Xianzheng Hui, the Imperial Constitutional association. They still want to protect the Emperor. They want to have Guangxu restored to the throne. But. But this opening for constitutionalism is one that's really great. And I think Kang saw himself as someone who is going to be invited back to China. He's the great constitutional scholar, the great reformer. He can do it. He's the man of the day. And he's also encouraging the people he meets. The average Chinese citizens he meets, I shouldn't call them citizens yet, but they give them a concept of citizenship in China. Beginning to develop some sense of nationalism for China and developing political parties. And he wanted the Constitutional association to kind of mentor. Be a mentor for Chinese citizenship. And around the same time in Tokyo, Liang Qi Chao established the Jiang Wen show the of the Political Information Society. And they were going to be kind of mentoring and teaching Chinese overseas who then could go back to China. And they also had chapters within China to begin to think about themselves as political people, as citizens of a nation. These are kind of radical ideas. Well, the Qing government wanted no part of Kang Yue and his group and it actually banned the Zheng Wenchi. I skipped the days or sometime in 1908. So around the same time. What's Kong doing during this period? His organization has changed names. Things are beginning to fall apart. The revolutionaries are kind of taking control. The Business ventures are kind of utter failures. Well, when he's in New York City in 1907, he marries a 17 year old Chinese American girl that he met in Los Angeles several years before. And supposedly she became enamored of him. Well, he definitely became enamored of her. And so they marry and they go off to sort of an extended honeymoon to Sweden where he actually he has an island in a home in Sweden that he spends time. Sure, he spent some good days there. So he's the micromanager. And yet he kind of leaves his people behind to go off with his new young consort. He already has several other wives and numerous children. It's all documented very carefully in our book. Well, in the midst of this, we come to November 1908 and on November 14, the Guangzhou Emperor dies. Well, we get into that in some detail. He didn't necessarily die of natural causes, if you get my drift. He may have been poisoned. There did autopsy much, much later on. There was some ambiguity about the cause of his death, but CIXI knew that she was on her deathbed as well. And the story goes that she had him assassinated. She died the next day. And this maybe perhaps could have been Kang Y's return to China. His worst enemy has died. He writes more this whole series of telegrams to Theodore Roosevelt about this and that. The United States should come to the now. We should come and the United States should come and and help restore the Emperor and bring constitutionalism to China. But it's also Sun Yat Sen's they're rising up in prestige where the scandals of the Western military Academy, the panic of 1907, the Ba Hong Hui business is kind of going downhill. None of that help Kang and his program where sun is now much more on the ascent. And so then you finally have the formal dissolution of the Qing dynasty in February of 1912 and Sun Yat Sen becomes the provisional President of China, the Republic of China.
- [93:19]
B
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B
At the Home Depot. Yeah, as we see that, you know, 1908 is Guangxi Emperor passed away. And then things started to become even more complicated. We already have all this kind of controversy and standoff for the business ventures. And there's internal conflict within the Bao Huanghui as well. And they just changed the name to the Constitutional Association. But now the whole point or whole goal to protect Emperor now is in question. Because now Guangxu passed away. So what happened to Kang Youwei and his kind of reform movement in North America after Guangxu passed away? Robert, you mentioned a little bit about this is where, you know, we see that the Sun Yat Sen and also the kind of revolutionists, they begun to get more and more kind of attention and also this kind of mobilizing more resources and things like that. But what about Kong and specifically in 1906, excuse me, 1909 and to 1911?
- [95:01]
D
Well, Kang was at that point, he was traveling. He traveled a great deal in 1909. He spent most of his time in travel, obviously trying to escape all the troubles of the Xianxia Hu at that point, I mean, he was in Egypt, Palestine, India, Ceylon and all over Europe. He was living mainly in Penang when he was back when he was settled. But he didn't have much contact except intermittent with Xianzhong white people. A lot of it was pretty rancorous communications too. And then in 1910, he was moving between Penang and Singapore in the strip trade settlements of avoiding assassins from all sides. There were even people after him from his own party. And he moved to Japan in June 1911, where he would stay until he returned to China in 1913. But in Japan, he was able to reunite with Liang Qiqiu. And that was pretty important. I don't think they'd seen each other for a very long time. And they became involved in various activities after the Wuchang uprising that set off the 1911 Republican Revolution in October 10th. But this period was one in which Kong was both seen as a corrupt. His legacy basically from this period, judged from this period was as a corrupt self centered politician. His organization had failed to achieve its aims. It was a complete failure. There was no constitutional monarchy or chance of it. There were all these business scandals. Members were losing faith in the reform cause and moving to the revolutionary cause. And then when one looks at what happened in China during this period, just before Wuchang in October 10, Kong could be seen as this seminal political organizer whose constitutional movement really was taking shape inside China, coming to fruition with a lot of his followers actually in power. So it was a complicated situation. And a lot of things were happening during this period. Outside China. The Xianzhengui was declining in 1909. The business scandals were not only King J. Lo and Tom Leung's booklet that was published. But there was another scandal that was even more inflaming. That involved more people very directly. And it was the company, which was actually a company started by the Vancouver. The prominent Vancouver Bao Hongqi leader, Ye'. En. And also involved officials in Guangxi Province. Most prominent of whom was Liu Shiji. Who had been a very staunch Kong supporter. It really stood out for Kong much, very early on. And they formed this company. It was a natural resources and mining company. That was to sort of exploit the resources in Guangxi. And be invested in by these overseas Cantonese Chinese. And was seen as a kind of a patriotic project. And it was initially backed with Kong. And they got funds from the Commercial corporation. And in 1908 and 1909. They sent a delegation with Liu and Ye to the US And Canada to sell shares. And Xianzhengui members were the ones who were approached. And people thought it was part of Xian Zhengwei. But in fact, sort of lost its connection to the Commercial Corporation. And they also began sort of bad mouthing the Commercial Corporation. And Xianzhengmei members began to sell their Commercial Corporation shares. And buy Jianhua shares, thinking it was more honest. So this created a huge flap. Kong and Leong threatened to take Jianhua back under the Commercial Corporation. And Liu Shiji refused, saying, you know, we formed this company to save the country, not the party. And that was sort of anathema to say. And they sold a lot of shares and they returned to China. Liu Shiji, in May 1909, was stabbed to death. And it turned out, I guess, although it was never really resolved in court or anything. That the murderer was someone who was close to the Baohonggui or to the Xianzhenghui. And Kang was accused of being behind the assassination. And he had already expressed a lot of hatred towards Liu Shijin. So this really inflamed members and some of the major people. Early Bao Hongqi leaders, for example, in San Francisco defected. Some joined the revolutionaries. Others just simply dropped out. And at this time, Sun Yat Sen returned to North America in 1909. He was finally successful in really fusing an alliance with the Zhi Gongtang or the Qigongtong. The secret society which was so powerful in almost every Chinese overseas city in North America. And the first chapter of his organization, the Revolutionary Alliance, Tung Mong Hui was founded in New York City. By people who had been leaders in the Baohuanghui. Both a man and his wife who was involved in The Women's association sun came back in 1911 and was able to raise a lot of money for his Guangzhou ups rising in April of 1911 and remained in the US and was actually in the US when the Wucheng uprising on October 10 took place. So in terms of what happened in, in the overseas Chinese after Wuchang.
- [102:12]
B
A.
- [102:13]
D
Lot of people who had not been revolutionary supporters were excited about this, and they saw it as a chance for change at last. And the Xianchenghui, the Chinese Empire Reform association, was seen as the enemy. So some of the revolutionary supporters were attacking the Xianzhenggui buildings, tearing down their flags and attacking, throwing their, you know, fighting their members. And there were staunch supporters who had been with Kong from the beginning who remained with the organization. And it's absolutely true that. But many institutions, such as the newspaper in San Francisco, which was at that point called Shijie or World Journal, stood up for the reformers and so on. And it lasted until 1969 and rose again actually during the Cold War period in a very powerful way. But. But inside China, things were quite different. Before Wuchang, the scandal had not reached there. It wasn't part of what was going on there. Instead, the constitutional reforms of the Qing government were beginning to take effect. And there was a lot of organizational capacity, a lot of. Of leadership capacity that the constitutional reformers had gained from the past decade of activism. So they were ready to assume power when they could. And the first thing that happened was in October 1909, there were provincial assemblies that met for the first time all over China. And at that point, the Qing constitutional plan was to implement a parliament by 1917 and a constitution. But these assemblies, the people in the assemblies, most of them were constitutionalists. They wanted a parliament much sooner. They were very avid, very interested in lots of national issues as well as local issues, but primarily national issues. And they were quite concerned about the long timeline for change. Between the two assembly, provincial assembly sessions in 1909 and 1910, the legislatures actually formed their own organization. And it carried on what had really been begun by Kong in 1908, which was a constitutional petition that called for a variety of, you know, a parliament, equality of Manchus and Han, and a variety of other, you know, elements of reform. And so they had three petitions in 1910, each one gathering more and more signatures. And in 1910, a two Qing princes, Zeitao in particular, who is a half brother of Guangxiu, came to the US and Canada on missions sent by the Qing, not related to the Ba Huangwei or Anything. But they were approached with more petitions, constitutional commissions demanding parliament by members of the Xianzheng Hui and New York and Chicago and so on. And then In October of 1910, another really important thing happened, and that was sort of a proto parliament. It wasn't really a parliament, but it was called the Zhejiangyuan, translated as Political Consultative Council. It was half appointed by the Court and half actually elected or people that came from the Provincial Assembly. And it was chaired by Prince Pulun, who had actually represented china at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904 and was a real reformer, made contact during that time with many people. And the third petition, constitutional petition from the Provincial assembly members, was submitted the same day that that this Political Consultative Council convened for the first time. And they demanded parliament in 1911, supposedly at 25 million signatures. And the Political Consultative Council ended up spending almost the whole session discussing the petition and then endorsing it by acclamation. So it was a huge deal. It was big news in world newspapers. Poulin called on the Court to take action, as the Council had demanded, to begin to immediately transition to a situation where they could have an election by 1911. Instead, the court decided to move the parliament date from 1917 to 1913. But they also demanded all the petitioning stop. They started cracking down on the petition movement. And this really enraged the constitutionalists and radicalized them. And some of them began to already say that they were going to become, you know, if provinces started declaring, you know, independence, they would take part. So after October 10, 1911, this surprise Wuchang uprising that set off the Republican revolution turned. It was slow to sort of get going, but it basically started a movement. Sun was in the United States, and Kong and Leong still hope to have a constitutional system that was under a monarchy. And they called it, or Kong called it a titular monarchical republic. So in other words, it'd be a republic, since they knew that a republic was popular, but it would be under a monarch in name only. And this might be the Emperor who was at that point, I think, Puy, or the eldest descendant of the descendant of Confucius. And so they attempted a military political coup involving three new army commanders who had been involved with the reform movement much earlier, when they were trained in Japan and and probably met Liang Qichao. Prince Zeitao was also involved because he at that point was in charge of the Imperial Guards in the Forbidden City. And so it was thought that he could basically hold Qing reaction at bay. And then they also, of course, were involving the newly empowered provincial and national legislatures who they wanted to install a constitutional representative republic under the symbolic monarchy. So at any rate, there was actually a mutiny. I won't go into it in much depth, but October 14, the commanders refused orders. There were 30,000 troops under their control and they refused orders to march to Wuhan to fight the revolutionaries that had been involved in the Wucheng uprising. They refused orders. They stayed in Luanzhou, this northern city. And the idea is that they would then march to the Forbidden City and Zeitow would command his troops to support the overthrow of the conservative court. So what happened was that the commander made these demands alongside refusing to move his troops. He made very strong political demands. Basically what Kong and Leong had sought and what was in the petitions convening a parliament. They wanted a cabinet that was a so called responsible cabinet with no members of the imperial family, equal treatment of Manchus and Han, amnesty to all political offenders. And the commanders, they threatened a military response if they didn't get a positive response. And the Qing backed down. It seemed to. They apologized, they sent out edicts that apologized and said that reforms would begin. They asked the Political Consultative Council to draft a constitution. And then they gave amnesty to all the political offenders from 1898, including Kang and Leong. And the Political Constitutive Council went along with it. They adopted a charter that was in keeping with Kong and Liang's and the commander's ideas. And it appeared that reform had succeeded. But a few days later, the Qing court ended up punishing the disloyal commanders, assassinating one of them. The Consultative Council disbanded, its members fled Beijing, chaos descended and one province after another was declaring independence from the Qing. The coup was crushed very quickly, but so was the Qing. And a new military government in Wuhan was formed. Initially constitutionalists were involved, but they were quickly sidelined and later assassinated. And for the rest of his life, Kong could not give up the idea of having a symbolic monarch at the head of a republic. He felt there was much chaos and Leung Qichao immediately abandoned this point of view with the inauguration of the republic and Sun Yat Sen as president.
- [113:19]
B
Thank you, James. And specifically talking about constitutionalist efforts and also different petitions and how this actually the Qing court respond in the beginning seemed to be kind of cooperating, were kind of in favor of their petition proposal, but later on they seem to be whole another story. And Kanye Wei still continue to kind of promote or insist for the symbolic monarchy even under the political framework of the Republic after 1911. So with this now we all know that no longer qing dynasty after 1911, after it's already being overthrown. And then we have the new republic. And Jamie, you mentioned a little bit about what happened next. The Khan still tried to kind of promote the constitutional idea, or at least with the symbolic monarchy as a head. And so with this, Khan actually passed away actually pretty suddenly in 1927. So after the Republic was established in 1912, 1911, all the way till his sudden death in 1927. So what happened during this period of time?
- [114:52]
C
Well, Kong, as you alluded to, he never gave up. But I think he realized by this time in the 1910s and 1920s, now he's kind of an elder statesman. Some of his people did get positions in government, but generally they didn't. They were on the outs. And one might ask, what did he think of the republic? Well, Jane mentioned that he favored a titular monarchical republic. Well, that's right out of his Dao Tung Shu, the book of Great Community that he had written many years earlier. That was one of the stages to a one world utopia. You had the monarchy. You have a constitutional monarchy. Eventually you have a monarch, a monarchical republic. And he believed that if this all went well, you could move into a sort of a one world government. You didn't need the monarchy. Eventually you would have a one world republic. So he was sort of in favor of this. He spent his time in these years in writing. He was living eventually in Qingdao. His young wife, his third wife, Hejian Li, died unfortunately, I think around 1915. He married three more times after that. So he was active in that regard. In 1917, there was another effort to restore the monarchy and to put the Puyi, the Shuandong Emperor, back on the throne. He had been then Guangxu's successor. Just a young, a baby successor. Now he's, you know, sort of a very young, still a boy. But to restore him to the throne. And Kang initially supported the idea, but he realized this isn't going to. This is not going to work out. But the authorities were suspecting that he was intimately involved in this, to the point that he fled and had took refuge in the United States Consulate in Beijing, which is a little unprecedented. That's some of the research I did looking at department state papers at the National Archives. There was some consternation about this. Why did they let him in? They shouldn't have given him refuge, was the opinion back in Washington. But the ambassador says, well, I've already given him refuge. He's here now. And he lived there for months after that. But I think that took a lot out of him. He's not a young man anymore. He was in poor health. You mentioned he died rather suddenly in 1927. But his legacy certainly lives on because he wrote the Datong Shu, the Chinese Communist Party. It at some point even Mao Zedong had shown his appreciation for that book because it was a, you know, sort of a. He saw as a guide to his his own form of utopia in establishing a communist government in regime in China. And also long after Kang died, his daughter Kantungbi was given a position on the Chinese Political Consultative Conference which is a supposedly sort of a non political advisory board to the National People's Congress in in China that was I think very early. She was appointed in 1949, 1950 maybe early 50s, I forget the date right now. And she held that position as sort of an honorary thing. But that showed that there that the Communist Party did appreciate great Kang what he represented. Although when the Cultural Revolution came along that changed completely. His grave was desecrated and torn apart. Later it was restored and exists today in restored fashion as does his home in Qingdao. So his legacy we think is fairly solid. What he did, what he didn't do, what his successes were, what his failures were. I think our book is at nearly 960 some pages with many appendices has really, really told his story as has never been told before.
- [119:35]
B
Indeed. And as Robert, you mentioned Kang your way have this kind of long political career and after his death in 1927 the legacy still lives on. And as this book tell kind of unpack it's a complicated legacy. And Robert, you mentioned that in terms of how the Communist Party, the leadership or during the Cultural Revolution, how Khan is being considered as kind of like a political figure that is promoting utopian world idea or as this kind of like a political figure supporting or promoting emperor rather than supporting people. So this kind of complicated legacy now still we witness as well. And with all this discussion about different chapters and also different moments in Kanye Wei his life and also his legacies, this book is more than 900 pages. But I'm just curious how during the kind of writing and also kind of get dealing with all this archival material and also newly discovered archival materials so anything that doesn't get to be included in the book or any things that you want to share with us, that's the most unexpected, one of the most surprising in the journey of writing this book.
- [121:10]
D
Well, I think the thing that is most unexpected was the Kong Tong Bee collection that we came across it was really significant. And it was just totally by chance. It was discovered, in fact, by my sister in law by chance. I won't even go into how she found it, but she found it. It had been sold on ebay. And she forwarded the link to me. And it was pictures of correspondence from Kong to his daughter. From both of my grandparents, as it turns out, from many, many other people to Kong to be. Along with photos, receipts and much more. And it was for sale. It had been sold, just sold in 2013. And by great good luck, we were able to convince the person who was in charge of it that we would contribute to the research on this. If they would please share all the scans of the documents. And. And that happened. Luckily, it was a very cooperative person with whom I'm still in touch. And he sent scans of all the materials. Then we had to transcribe them, analyze them. A lot of them were completely new to us. Correspondence ran from July 1904 to December or October 1905. But it included all this information.
- [122:56]
B
About.
- [122:56]
D
Kong's desire to assassinate Sun Yat Sen, for example. And also about his involvement in designing a badge, a membership badge that he would sell on his journey in 1905. And Robert did a really detailed study of that. And there was the receipt from the Colt Firearms Company. We'd read about this, read the story in one of the Hartford newspapers about the visit to the cult factory. But here was the receipt of the 300 something dollars that Kong spent and which guns he bought. And an incredible poster of the Women's association in Victoria. And one of the really astounding things like the earliest, probably we think it's the earliest version of Kong Yowei's nienpu. It was written not in his hand, but by other people. Because he basically wrote the draft. And this was a copy by various people, including, we think, his daughters, his two eldest daughters when they were not very old. As well as others that Kong took with him to the United States. And also a portion of his biography which we thought was written by someone else. And that he in the United States. We also discovered from this material. Wanted to have translated into English by Yung Wing Ronghong, the famous Chinese educational mission leader. The first person to graduate, the first Chinese to graduate from Yale. And one of Kang's. He was in China during 1898. At any rate, he was with Kong on his two visits to Roosevelt. And he actually wrote probably one of the letters that Kong wrote to Roosevelt. But it was just an incredible collection. And Robert and I visited the home where Kong Tung Bi was living in South Windsor, Connecticut, where she collected these materials and left them behind. She was studying in South Windsor in high school and with tutors under the wing of Yong Wing between 1903 and 1907, and was very involved in Kong's activities in 1905 and 1906. And she went on to go to Barnard College in New York in 1907-1909. But the family that owned the house in 1904 and 1905 are still there. I mean, obviously descendants of the original hostess of Cantonbi. And we found more materials that we now hope to donate to an institution. At any rate, it was just, you know, it was a find that supplemented the Tom Leung Papers, which were quite extensive in terms of all of the activities of the Baohongkwei between 1899 and 1909, and then all the correspondence that Kong wrote that has been preserved and others in the movement. But that delayed us a great deal. But it was definitely worth the time.
- [126:41]
B
Thank you, Jane, for sharing. What an incredible story. I mean, finding all this Cantonbi a collection paper on ebay. And so in a way that is unexpected, surprising, but also sort of expand what we know or what we we actually did not know about Khan's journey and also Khan's experience in the United States and also traveling around the world as well. And with that we talk about the book, we talk about behind the scene. And now we are moving to the last portion of our conversation today. So this is where we want to know what's next. So after the this book, and again, congratulations on this huge achievement. What are you working on right now and what would be your next project?
- [127:36]
D
I guess I will go first. I'm not working on much. I'm hoping not to work on much. We are doing some promotion of the book. We'll be giving a talk in New York and I am planning a talk in Los Angeles and Portland, Oregon. But right now I'm just continuing research on the primary sources that I still haven't studied very much of. And I'm trying to encourage other scholars to pursue this topic because there's so much more to cover. I've been recently sharing with sources with the University of Missouri professor Susan Brunel, who's one of a number of people working on the St. Louis World's Fair and the Chinese participation. And so we've been studying Wang Yap again. I had sort of left him behind, but she's found all kinds of new material. So that's basically what I'm doing at this point.
- [128:38]
C
Well, the ball's over to me at this point. I just want to say that I alluded to this earlier. I had correspondence was from Jane's mother. I met Jane Evans Chand, various people. I was very kind of reluctant to get involved in this project, but eventually I couldn't resist. And so I had several other projects going on simultaneously in the past since September 2024 and April 2025. Besides this book, I've had two other books published. So those have kept me busy. And of course those publishers want me to promote those books. They have nothing to do with China. I don't think the word china is mentioned in them at all except in regard to porcelain that people might use for dishes. My interest in China will always be with me. I want to point out that this year I reached the venerable age of 80, so I'm probably not going to get get involved in too many more new research projects. But I have a lot of old research projects I'd like to bring to fruition. Some, you know, articles. I just can't resist doing research. But I will do more research and again, I just want to end just by saying that it hadn't been for Jane, we wouldn't have a book and it wouldn't be a book of 964 pages or whatever we finally came up with in her network of people. And the other contributors who wrote parts of the book were just amazing. And we're happy it's been published and very happy that you're asking us all these good questions about it and thus promoting the availability of this book. So thank you.
- [130:29]
B
Li Ping well, thank you Jane and Robert for achieving again this massive project. And so thank you both also for sharing what's your next project? So we looking forward to hearing more from you guys, either promotion of the book or a related research or so or maybe some of as Robert, you mentioned your old project, but now you are sort of kind of like started again. And with that said, I also want to thank you, our audience, for staying with us till the end. I hope everyone is staying safe and taking good care and see you guys next time. Goodbye. Limu Emo and Doug Limu and I.
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C
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