Robert Waxler and David Beckman, "You Say, I Say: Staying Alive with Literature, Language, and Friendship" (Rivertown Books, 2025)

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Rebecca Buchanan
Guests: Robert Waxler and David Beckman
Book Discussed: You Say, I Say: Staying Alive with Literature, Language, and Friendship (Rivertown Books, 2025)
Date: September 25, 2025

In this engaging episode, Rebecca Buchanan interviews Robert Waxler and David Beckman about their co-authored book, which chronicles their decades-long friendship, literary explorations, and personal journeys through a series of reflective emails. The conversation digs into themes of literature’s power, the role of dialogue in friendship, confronting mortality, wrestling with commercialism versus art, and the life-long challenge (and joy) of seeking meaning in language and relationships.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Genesis and Structure of the Book

The book began as an ongoing email exchange between two college friends reconnecting after decades apart ([02:10]-[04:49]).
- David Beckman: “It was the process of going back and forth with Bob and that’s how the book came to be.”
- The exchanges evolved from emails into what they called "letters," exploring literature, memory, language, and friendship.
The correspondence spanned about 2.5 to 3 years ([05:04]).
- Robert Waxler: “No matter what else was coming out of this, there was a kind of joy in the exchange and the dialogue itself.”

The Power and Necessity of Dialogue

The ongoing dialogue rekindled their friendship and deepened their connection ([05:04]-[07:42]).
- Waxler: “Two people who don’t agree on a lot of things, but nevertheless, they’re sort of focused on something. And then through language, it can bring joy and friendship and intensify whatever relationship in a positive way.”
Emphasis on the value of communicating—even where there’s disagreement—and the joys found in the “space between people.”

Literature as Lifeblood—Imagination, Memory, and Rereading

Literature is both a starting point and a medium for sustaining connection and reflection ([08:31]-[10:30]).
- Beckman (invoking William Blake): “The use of—not just use, but the plunging into—language at its best, spurs the mind to imagination that might not happen otherwise.”
- Waxler: “You are what you envision. … [Blake] offers a possibility for a world that could... be close to perfect.”
Discussion threads run from the Bible to contemporary literature, traversing Dante, Shakespeare, the Romantics, Mailer, and Salinger ([10:30]-[15:10]).
- Waxler: “It’s as if, again, we enter into dialogue with a book. The book tells us as much about ourselves as we tell a book as we read it.”
Literature is seen as a means for empathy, self-discovery, and navigating vulnerability and mortality.

Wrestling with Big Topics: Judaism, Modernism, and Existential Questions

Their conversations dovetail into explorations of faith, the Holocaust, modernist poetry, and the tension between Jewish and Greek traditions ([15:10]-[21:06]).
- Waxler: “[David’s] voice really sort of inspires me to look toward these other things and to sort things out for myself.… We need this kind of ongoing call and response.”
- Beckman: Draws on T.S. Eliot and the modernist experience, connecting city life, alienation, and poetic voice.

Art Versus Commerce: The Writer’s Dilemma

The tension between writing for art's sake and for commercial survival is openly discussed ([21:06]-[24:06]).
- Beckman: “The old adage is... that will kill your muse. You’ll never write poetry again. And my answer to myself … was, well, then I must not have been very serious about poetry to begin with if it could get killed that easily.”
- For both, writing in any form is a way of engaging with the world; they encourage young writers to not “box yourself in.”
- Waxler: “Each one of us has one unique precious life... It is part of our responsibility as limited human beings to try to discover what the destiny of that one unique life is.”

Suffering, Mortality, and Changing Perception

Waxler shares his pancreatic cancer diagnosis and a poignant exchange with his oncologist ([26:57]-[30:34]).
- Rebecca Buchanan: “Some people spend their whole lives not getting to that point of thinking, like, it’s not better or worse. It’s just different. And that’s okay.”
- Waxler: “He wasn’t making... a value judgment about which one was better or not. It was just the notion that it’s a change.…We quote the poet Rilke sometimes in that context... Change your life.”

The Uniqueness and Impact of Voice (Catcher in the Rye)

Extended discussion about Salinger’s Catcher in the Rye and the importance of literary voice ([30:34]-[37:23]).
- Waxler: “If we don’t pay attention to that voice, to that language and to its uniqueness…I don’t think we’re being totally responsible as readers.”
- Beckman: “Even for all his humor and rebellion, it [Holden’s values] comes across almost latently. And then you realize, no, it’s driving everything he does.”
- The persistence of “graffiti” (literal and metaphorical) as a symbol for the imperfection of the world and our limitations as individuals.

The Transformative Power of Friendship and Literary Exchange

Both authors reflect on how the project drew out insights and memories they didn’t know they possessed ([38:20]-[40:43]).
- Beckman: “It allowed me to discover things I know that I didn’t know I knew.”
- Waxler: “We’re sort of mentors for each other… We had different views, and yet we had a commonality. We had something between us that actually grew in its joyfulness.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Friendship and Dialogue:
- “It was as if it was just yesterday when, you know, when that friendship was rekindled.” — Waxler ([05:04])
On Literature’s Empathy:
- “There’s this exchange between the writer and the reader, and it’s as if the book, to me at least, summons the responsible reader and then the reader sort of talks back to the book itself.” — Waxler ([13:00])
On Being a Writer:
- “Language is everywhere. We’re surrounded by the printed word and the electronic word. Just go where your impulse takes you and don’t apologize to anybody.” — Beckman ([23:20])
On Mortality and Change:
- “He wasn’t making a value judgment about which one was better or not. It was just the notion that it’s a change.… Change your life.” — Waxler ([28:15])
On Salinger and Voice:
- “It’s the voice. It’s the call that Holden, in a sense, makes to us. And if we close the book, we essentially are closing off Holden and the voice and in that sense, Salinger himself.” — Waxler ([32:00])
- “It’s interesting that those are words he’s reacting to, his language on a wall, but a good old Holden... he’s got a moral sense that... it comes across almost latently. And then you realize, no, it’s driving everything he does…” — Beckman ([33:41])
On Intellectual Companionship:
- “It was just a joy for me to be exposed to that which wouldn’t have happened otherwise.” — Beckman ([39:10])
- “As the title suggests, you say, I say... it’s the richness and the joy of writing this.” — Waxler ([40:43])

Important Timestamps

[01:34] Episode proper—introduction and guests’ background
[02:10] How the book/project began
[05:04] The writing process, passage of time, the role of joy in dialogue
[08:31] Literature’s importance, role of William Blake and imagination
[13:00] Emergence of dialogue between reader and text
[15:53] Large-scale themes: Judaism, the Bible, and personal history
[18:09] Modernism, T.S. Eliot, and Pound’s influence
[21:55] Commercialism and artistic purpose
[24:06 – 26:35] Unique destinies and language’s omnipresence
[26:57] Pancreatic cancer, pain, and differing perception
[30:34] Catcher in the Rye and the power of literary voice
[33:41] Holden’s morality and the meaning of graffiti
[38:20] What the authors learned from their correspondence
[43:01] Book promotions and ongoing projects

Closing Thoughts

The episode is a warm, honest, and intellectually rich reflection on enduring friendship, the lifelong dance between language and silence, and the way literature can both sustain and challenge us. Listeners are left with a renewed appreciation for dialogue—both human and literary—and the unfinished, ongoing nature of life’s big questions.

Where to Find the Book:

Rivertown Books
Amazon
Local bookstores (ask to order)
More on the authors and book at rivertownsbooks.com

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Genesis and Structure of the Book

The book began as an ongoing email exchange between two college friends reconnecting after decades apart ([02:10]-[04:49]).
- David Beckman: “It was the process of going back and forth with Bob and that’s how the book came to be.”
- The exchanges evolved from emails into what they called "letters," exploring literature, memory, language, and friendship.
The correspondence spanned about 2.5 to 3 years ([05:04]).
- Robert Waxler: “No matter what else was coming out of this, there was a kind of joy in the exchange and the dialogue itself.”

The Power and Necessity of Dialogue

The ongoing dialogue rekindled their friendship and deepened their connection ([05:04]-[07:42]).
- Waxler: “Two people who don’t agree on a lot of things, but nevertheless, they’re sort of focused on something. And then through language, it can bring joy and friendship and intensify whatever relationship in a positive way.”
Emphasis on the value of communicating—even where there’s disagreement—and the joys found in the “space between people.”

Literature as Lifeblood—Imagination, Memory, and Rereading

Literature is both a starting point and a medium for sustaining connection and reflection ([08:31]-[10:30]).
- Beckman (invoking William Blake): “The use of—not just use, but the plunging into—language at its best, spurs the mind to imagination that might not happen otherwise.”
- Waxler: “You are what you envision. … [Blake] offers a possibility for a world that could... be close to perfect.”
Discussion threads run from the Bible to contemporary literature, traversing Dante, Shakespeare, the Romantics, Mailer, and Salinger ([10:30]-[15:10]).
- Waxler: “It’s as if, again, we enter into dialogue with a book. The book tells us as much about ourselves as we tell a book as we read it.”
Literature is seen as a means for empathy, self-discovery, and navigating vulnerability and mortality.

Wrestling with Big Topics: Judaism, Modernism, and Existential Questions

Their conversations dovetail into explorations of faith, the Holocaust, modernist poetry, and the tension between Jewish and Greek traditions ([15:10]-[21:06]).
- Waxler: “[David’s] voice really sort of inspires me to look toward these other things and to sort things out for myself.… We need this kind of ongoing call and response.”
- Beckman: Draws on T.S. Eliot and the modernist experience, connecting city life, alienation, and poetic voice.

Art Versus Commerce: The Writer’s Dilemma

The tension between writing for art's sake and for commercial survival is openly discussed ([21:06]-[24:06]).
- Beckman: “The old adage is... that will kill your muse. You’ll never write poetry again. And my answer to myself … was, well, then I must not have been very serious about poetry to begin with if it could get killed that easily.”
- For both, writing in any form is a way of engaging with the world; they encourage young writers to not “box yourself in.”
- Waxler: “Each one of us has one unique precious life... It is part of our responsibility as limited human beings to try to discover what the destiny of that one unique life is.”

Suffering, Mortality, and Changing Perception

Waxler shares his pancreatic cancer diagnosis and a poignant exchange with his oncologist ([26:57]-[30:34]).
- Rebecca Buchanan: “Some people spend their whole lives not getting to that point of thinking, like, it’s not better or worse. It’s just different. And that’s okay.”
- Waxler: “He wasn’t making... a value judgment about which one was better or not. It was just the notion that it’s a change.…We quote the poet Rilke sometimes in that context... Change your life.”

The Uniqueness and Impact of Voice (Catcher in the Rye)

Extended discussion about Salinger’s Catcher in the Rye and the importance of literary voice ([30:34]-[37:23]).
- Waxler: “If we don’t pay attention to that voice, to that language and to its uniqueness…I don’t think we’re being totally responsible as readers.”
- Beckman: “Even for all his humor and rebellion, it [Holden’s values] comes across almost latently. And then you realize, no, it’s driving everything he does.”
- The persistence of “graffiti” (literal and metaphorical) as a symbol for the imperfection of the world and our limitations as individuals.

The Transformative Power of Friendship and Literary Exchange

Both authors reflect on how the project drew out insights and memories they didn’t know they possessed ([38:20]-[40:43]).
- Beckman: “It allowed me to discover things I know that I didn’t know I knew.”
- Waxler: “We’re sort of mentors for each other… We had different views, and yet we had a commonality. We had something between us that actually grew in its joyfulness.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Friendship and Dialogue:
- “It was as if it was just yesterday when, you know, when that friendship was rekindled.” — Waxler ([05:04])
On Literature’s Empathy:
- “There’s this exchange between the writer and the reader, and it’s as if the book, to me at least, summons the responsible reader and then the reader sort of talks back to the book itself.” — Waxler ([13:00])
On Being a Writer:
- “Language is everywhere. We’re surrounded by the printed word and the electronic word. Just go where your impulse takes you and don’t apologize to anybody.” — Beckman ([23:20])
On Mortality and Change:
- “He wasn’t making a value judgment about which one was better or not. It was just the notion that it’s a change.… Change your life.” — Waxler ([28:15])
On Salinger and Voice:
- “It’s the voice. It’s the call that Holden, in a sense, makes to us. And if we close the book, we essentially are closing off Holden and the voice and in that sense, Salinger himself.” — Waxler ([32:00])
- “It’s interesting that those are words he’s reacting to, his language on a wall, but a good old Holden... he’s got a moral sense that... it comes across almost latently. And then you realize, no, it’s driving everything he does…” — Beckman ([33:41])
On Intellectual Companionship:
- “It was just a joy for me to be exposed to that which wouldn’t have happened otherwise.” — Beckman ([39:10])
- “As the title suggests, you say, I say... it’s the richness and the joy of writing this.” — Waxler ([40:43])

Important Timestamps

[01:34] Episode proper—introduction and guests’ background
[02:10] How the book/project began
[05:04] The writing process, passage of time, the role of joy in dialogue
[08:31] Literature’s importance, role of William Blake and imagination
[13:00] Emergence of dialogue between reader and text
[15:53] Large-scale themes: Judaism, the Bible, and personal history
[18:09] Modernism, T.S. Eliot, and Pound’s influence
[21:55] Commercialism and artistic purpose
[24:06 – 26:35] Unique destinies and language’s omnipresence
[26:57] Pancreatic cancer, pain, and differing perception
[30:34] Catcher in the Rye and the power of literary voice
[33:41] Holden’s morality and the meaning of graffiti
[38:20] What the authors learned from their correspondence
[43:01] Book promotions and ongoing projects

Closing Thoughts

Where to Find the Book:

Rivertown Books
Amazon
Local bookstores (ask to order)
More on the authors and book at rivertownsbooks.com

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Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Genesis and Structure of the Book

The Power and Necessity of Dialogue

Literature as Lifeblood—Imagination, Memory, and Rereading

Wrestling with Big Topics: Judaism, Modernism, and Existential Questions

Art Versus Commerce: The Writer’s Dilemma

Suffering, Mortality, and Changing Perception

The Uniqueness and Impact of Voice (Catcher in the Rye)

The Transformative Power of Friendship and Literary Exchange

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Closing Thoughts

Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Genesis and Structure of the Book

The Power and Necessity of Dialogue

Literature as Lifeblood—Imagination, Memory, and Rereading

Wrestling with Big Topics: Judaism, Modernism, and Existential Questions

Art Versus Commerce: The Writer’s Dilemma

Suffering, Mortality, and Changing Perception

The Uniqueness and Impact of Voice (Catcher in the Rye)

The Transformative Power of Friendship and Literary Exchange

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Closing Thoughts