Robinson Kariuki Mwangi, "The Influence of Early Keswick Theology of Sanctification in the Socio-Ethical Life of the East African Revival Movement: A Missional Perspective" (Langham Academic, 2025)

Summary

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Episode Summary: Robinson Kariuki Mwangi, "The Influence of Early Keswick Theology of Sanctification in the Socio-Ethical Life of the East African Revival Movement: A Missional Perspective"

Podcast: New Books Network — New Books in World Christianity
Host: Dave Broczek
Guest: Dr. Robinson Kariuki Mwangi
Date: January 29, 2026

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Overview

This episode features Dr. Robinson Mwangi discussing his book, The Influence of Early Keswick Theology of Sanctification in the Socio-Ethical Life of the East African Revival Movement: A Missional Perspective (Langham Academic, 2025). The conversation centers on how early Keswick (pronounced "Kes-ick") theology shaped the spiritual practices, ethical frameworks, and communal life of the East African Revival Movement, especially among Anglicans in Kenya and the broader region. Dr. Mwangi explores the theological, social, and missional implications of this movement, sharing insights from his extensive research and experience, and reflecting on its ongoing relevance for African Christianity today.

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Guest Introduction and Background

• Dr. Robinson Mwangi:

  • Principal of St. Andrew’s College of Theology and Development, Kabare, Kenya
  • Former vicar in the Anglican Church Diocese of Kirinyaga, Kenya
  • Holds a PhD in Missiology from Northwest University, Potchefstroom, South Africa
  • Mentored by figures such as Archbishop David Gitari (Kenya) and Professor Johannes Nortje (South Africa)
  • Passionate about church leadership, theological education, and revivalist spirituality
  • "I'm a born again Christian. I'm married to one wife, as we normally say, and blessed with three children…"

• St. Andrew’s College of Theology and Development:

  • Established in 1977 to train Anglican clergy
  • Expanded in 2007 to include business and development studies
  • Affiliated with St. Paul’s University, Limuru, Kenya

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Context of the East African Revival Movement

• East African Revival Movement began in 1929 at Gahini Anglican Mission in Rwanda and spread widely (Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Burundi, Congo, Sudan) ([10:22]).
  • Central features: deep conversion experience, daily confession of sin, public testimonies, radical transparency, accountability, and restitution.
  • Emphasis: “walking in the light”—a practice of openly acknowledging failings and seeking reconciliation.
• Influence on Kenyan Anglicanism: Strong connections to Protestant spirituality; movement led to personal transformation, growth in lay leadership, integration of local culture, and rapid expansion of church membership.

2. Keswick Theology: From England to East Africa

• Keswick Movement (Higher Life Theology) ([13:26]):
  • Rooted in late 19th-century England; annual Keswick Conferences since 1875.
  • Doctrine of sanctification: emphasizes a post-conversion experience (“second blessing”)—total surrender to God, victory over sin, practical holiness.
  • Five-day conference structure: sin acknowledged, cure offered, consecration, growth in the Spirit, mission focus.

Quote:
"Keswick theology taught that sanctification was experienced sometime after justification … the understanding was brought to England in 1872, and since then at the Keswick Convention in 1875, they promoted practical holiness and a deep sense of spirituality." — Robinson Mwangi ([13:26])

• African Context:
  • Noted parallels between Keswick’s emphasis on “separation” and African practices (e.g., circumcision rites, initiation).
  • The adoption of “set apart”/separation resonated with experiences under colonial segregation.
  • Keswick's focus on ethical living merged with indigenous spirituality, resulting in unique expressions.

3. Research Rationale and Methodology

• Motivation for Study:
  • Personal encounter with East African Revival “brethren” during theological studies challenged him to explore the movement’s theological underpinnings ([06:23]).
  • Major research question: Has Keswick theology of sanctification influenced the socio-ethical understanding of “walking in the light” in the East African Revival, and thus the mission of the Anglican Church in Mount Kenya region? ([19:12])
• Methodology ([19:12–27:21]):
  • Qualitative research: Surveys, interviews, and focus groups across four dioceses and a pilot fifth.
  • Sample: 2,500 committed East African Revival members, with 400 respondents.
  • Focus: Differences in knowledge and practice among ordinary members, leaders, and theological students.

Notable Finding:
Many respondents (including 100% of theological students surveyed) were unaware of "Keswick" as a theological source, despite practicing its influence ([27:21–28:44]).

Quote:
"The funny thing is that the theological students 100% did not know what is this … it's not part of curriculum here." — Robinson Mwangi ([26:57])

4. Testimony and Scriptural Foundations

• Signature Testimony Style ([19:12–21:12]):
  • Testimonies structured as:
    • How I was (before conversion)
    • How I am (current spiritual state/walking in the light)
    • Future hope (expectation of continued growth)
• Key Biblical Passages Shaping Ethics and Separation ([29:33]):
  • Ephesians 5:14: “Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead”—interpreted as a call to separate from non-believers.
  • Daniel 1:8–16: “Do not defile yourself”—avoid luxury, pursue a humble lifestyle.
  • 1 Corinthians 11:13–15: Gender roles and appearance.
  • 2 Corinthians 6:14–18: "Come out" and separate from sinners.
• Result: Development of subgroups within the movement, e.g., "awake," "arising," "stand firm," each with specific testimonies and practices ([34:06–36:27]).

5. Patterns of Separation and Group Dynamics

• Separation as a Recurring Tendency:
  • Use of scripture to set strict rules.
  • Formation of splinter groups with distinct names and behaviors.
  • Some groups (e.g., "arising") advocate for extreme practices: no Holy Communion, no dowry, no credit purchases, no dogs as pets ([34:39–36:27]).
• Relationship to Anglican Church:
  • Revival movement members remain in Anglican churches but may act independently or even depart from corporate activities, e.g., fundraising events ([36:27]).

6. Evaluation & Socio-Ethical Impact

• Critical Assessment of Movement ([38:11–41:23]):
  • Terms used: “holier than thou,” “super serious,” “self-elevated,” “hypocritical,” “stringent,” and “injurious.”
  • The tendency to exclusion and strict rules can undermine humility, inclusivity, and effective church mission.
• Missional Critique:
  • Separation and internal divisions are “injurious” to mission:
    “The aspect of inclusion versus exclusion would not work for any mission … Mission belongs to God; for us, we just participate in it.” ([42:04])

7. Hopeful Reevaluation and Contemporary Relevance

• Call to Inclusion and Ethical Renewal ([43:55–45:12]):
  • The movement’s “walk in the light” has potential for national transformation, communal accountability, integrity, and hope.
  • Encourages moving from exclusionary to inclusive practices in both church and society.

Quote:
"It presents a moral framework for national transformation and cohesion... challenges church and society to rediscover a sanctified life marked by integrity, inclusion and ethical responsibility." — Robinson Mwangi ([43:55])

• Practical Message:
  • Revival spirituality offers blueprint for confronting corruption, fostering hope, and realigning Kenya’s ethical compass.

8. Reception, Audience, and Future Work

• Book Reception ([45:31–46:10]):

  • Positive response from clergy, theological colleges, and bookshops in Kenya.

• Intended Audience:

  • Pastors, theologians, missiologists, students of African Christianity, and anyone interested in the “spiritual DNA” of East African Christianity.

• Future Research ([47:56]):

  • Dr. Mwangi is exploring revival spirituality informed by integrity, inclusion, and ethical responsibility. He is also peer-reviewing a dissertation in this field.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On personal testimony:
  "A member of East Africa Revival would give a testimony in a threefold way: how I was, how I am, and then future expectations." ([21:07])

• On separation:
  "The phenomenon of separation as a pattern in the movement has started to evolve." ([34:06])

• On the dangers of exclusion:
  "This kind of a trend is injurious to mission endeavors because when you separate yourself, the church is separated ... that mission would have been difficult." ([41:23])

• On the potential for good:
  "Walking in the light offers more than spiritual renewal. It presents a moral framework for national transformation and cohesion.” ([43:55])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Guest bio & St Andrew’s College: 02:37–05:25
• Why study the East African Revival?: 06:23–10:22
• History and spread of the movement: 10:22–13:26
• Keswick origins and influence: 13:26–18:59
• Research aims & methods: 19:12–27:21
• Testimonies and revivalist practice: 21:12–26:57
• Discovery about lack of awareness of Keswick origins: 27:21–28:44
• Scriptural and group-based separation: 29:33–36:27
• Relationship to the Anglican Church: 36:27–37:51
• Evaluation and labels ("holier than thou" etc.): 38:11–41:23
• Missional critique and call for inclusivity: 42:04–45:12
• Final message and hope for the future: 43:55–50:01

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Concluding Thoughts

Dr. Robinson Mwangi paints a nuanced picture of the East African Revival as both a spiritual powerhouse and a movement prone to problematic separation. Linking its ethos to historical Keswick theology, he urges today’s African church to blend revivalist passion with inclusivity and ethical social engagement. The episode provides not only historical and theological insight, but also a roadmap for future missional practice.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.

[B]

Hello, I'm Dave Broczek, one of the hosts of New Books in World Christianity. In this episode, I'm talking with Dr. Robinson Mwangi about his book the Influence of Early Kazak Theology of Sanctification in the Socioethical Life of the East African Revival Movement. This book was published by langham academic in 2025. Dr. Mwangi is the principal of St Andrew's College of Theology and Development in Kabare, Kenya. He's also spent seven years serving as a vicar in the Anglican Church Diocese of Kirinyaga, Kenya. He has a PhD in missiology from Northwest University, Potterstrom, South Africa. This book is result of his research. So having said that, let me say this, Dr. Mwangi, welcome to the podcast.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

I'm assuming that the majority of listeners whom neither you nor I have met at this point will be those with a connection to Christianity in East Africa or an interest in Christianity in East Africa. Some listeners will be scholars and church leaders, others church members and others may listen in who may be simply curious about the subject matter. And we welcome all, all of them. Let's start by learning something about yourself. Could you just fill us in who you are, what you do, your personal and professional journey?

[C]

Thank you so much, Dave. My name is Rowan Benison Karaoke, Mwangi. I'm a born again Christian. I'm married to one wife, as we normally say, and embraced with three children, a boy and a girl. Of course, they are adults now, so to say. I'm also a Klangie in the Diocese of Kirinyaga and a principal of St Andrew's College of Biolonge and Iblong, where I joined in 1999 as director of Pastor Area, or what we call chaplain. But then 2002 I became the deputy principal until 2016 when I became the Principal. As you have rightly said in the introduction, I have a PhD from Orchestra Campus Northwest University, and before that I studied in the UK for my postgraduate diploma and Master's of Arts in Theology. And I want to say my mentors, particularly on the spiritual side, was the Right Reverend Dr. David Guetari, who used to be the Bishop of Kerenyaga and also the Archbishop of Kenya. And on the academic side on the site, Professor Johannes Notice, who used to be my supervisor at Northwest University and today is at university in South Africa. That's about my bio, Dave.

[B]

Yes, Robinson, thank you. Thank you very much. Maybe you could also tell us just a bit about St. Andrew's College.

[C]

Oh yeah, thank you. St. Andrew's College is one of colleges which teach Anglican students and it was founded in 1977 by Archbishop David Guetari, the one whom I've just cited. And 2007 it also became a development college because it embraced business school and development standards. So as of today, it's one of the largest college which is affiliated to St Paul's University Rimuru, which is in Kenya and performs quite well in terms of standards and also ministerial formation.

[B]

That's helpful to get a sense of your professional engagement. Excuse me there. Well, we'd like to switch maybe to focus now on the book. Be interested in asking how you came to write this book, how you came to choose a subject matter. And I might also invite you to maybe here at the start, for those who aren't fully informed about East African Christianity, I wonder if you can describe for us particularly the East African Revival movement, its relationship to the Anglican Church and of course, moving on into what is the Keswick Movement. Many listeners may know, but many may not. So let me ask you to combine those kinds of things with describing the Christian environment there. But then moving in, how did you come to write this book?

[C]

Okay, thank you once again, Dave. Issues to do with the East Africa Revival movement came to me in a big way when I was a first year in A theological college doing my bachelor's. And this happened when I attended a church in my home church. And I was accosted by a member of East Africa Revival whom as we would be able to say, we call brethren or baroque. So I was accosted by this Linda. And having known that I'm now in a college doing theology. So he asked me, are you saved? How do you preach to people when you are not saved? So I needed to explore this assertion and this animal, so to say East Africa Revival movement, because I could not understand what is this East Africa Revival movement by then in that terms of you cannot preach, are you saved? And so on. So my thought started from there. And so when time came for me to do a research, I really thought I'm going to explore this. And that's why my book is rooted in my PhD research, as you heard rightly said, to explore the theological admissional underpinnings of the East African Revival movement. And I sought to trace the influence of alikesic theology, especially its doctrine of sanctification, on the socio ethical life of East Africa. Because oriented people are so formed within that behavior category pattern which is built on a socio ethical life. I needed to explore that concerning East African Christianity. Predominantly East Africa is Protestant. Of course there is Catholic, but of course for our interests here is Protestantism. And this Protestant arrangement was influenced by East Africa revival to some extent and by far the Mbaro Kore movement, which means the saved ones, all of the brethren. And the emphasis here is personal holiness, confession of sin. And this has led to personal transformation of those who got involved in the Baroque call movement. And there has been rapid growth and even strong leadership as they are able to integrate culture and rock and the theology.

[B]

Thank you for that description, Robinson. I might just mention something that listeners may or may not be aware of. You may have heard some drumming actually in the background. And we actually paused here and we're starting back up again. That was actually the students at the college worshiping a beautiful thing. And they've actually transferred, I believe to another location. But this makes this interview quite interesting. And you know, it's the reality of the situation of the church and the worship and college. Love to hear it. So Robinson, let me invite you to continue talking about East African Christianity as you were doing.

[C]

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, Dave. So I was saying, in 1840s, Johann Rudencraft, a German, was sent to East Africa as a missionary. And after him came the Eastern Ictoria Africa Diocese which was established in 1884. And this diocese governed present day Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. The Anglican Church became autonomous in 1970 and today has over 5 million members and about 41 dioceses. The growth has been driven by the spiritual revival fervor, though of course with the tension between institutional churches and the revivalists. So concerning East Africa Revival movement. This movement is a powerful renewal kind of movement which began around 1929 at Ngahini Anglican Mission in Rwanda and covers. The movement covers as it is referred to as East Africa, that is Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda, Burundi, even Congo, even Sudan. And with the beginning of the movement, a sense of deep conversion experience started getting the better part of Christianity in East Africa leading to radical changes and walking in the light daily confessing sins, sharing failures in their fellow civil worship, failures of the day or of the week where somebody was not able to walk in the light according to the belief system. So promoting accountability and also restitution where somebody will say I'm sorry, I did wrong, please forgive me. And then they start to move on. And that is actually the work in light where I'm done wrong. I say it openly. And then restitution reform concerning Cesic movement and called Kesik theology as endotta of higher life movement which of course we know this began in the US there and it taught that sanctification was experienced sometime after justification. So it's like sanctification and justification are not one and the same. Starting the same time for them is justification. Then sanctification come later on in life. So this understanding of sanctification was brought to England in 1872. And the first Keswick conversion in 1875 focused on promoting practical holiness and a deep sense of spirituality leading to what came to be known as spiritual clinic where people would go maybe it's like somebody is sick and isn't agonized that you need 1, 2, 3. And this would do with the post conversion experiences what also came to be referred to as second blessing. And as we will be able to see later, the second blessing issue was like saying I am God saved, but there is something remaining which the Spirit will give me. And this is the higher life we are talking of surrendering completely to God. So Cesar Convention started from then, that is from 1875 which is an annual week or annual week long conference held in the Lake District of England where teachings on higher life theology are expounded. The rival victory over sin. And so the five days of this kind of experiential sanctification began with the sini principle. Day one and two is unbalt event There will be no sales of the sin. And in day two is about the cure. And then the day three is about what was taught is sanctification or consecration. Where one is dedicated and commit the whole self to Christ. That is the third day. Then the fourth day is what is referred to the Spirit spring life where now prescription for spiritual growth was administered. And then the fifth day is to do with care sick missions. The focus here is on soul winning and foreign missions. People going out there to go and speak about this experience on the February day. And this of course be the work of the consecrated and spirit filled people. Or on brethren. Or those people now feeling this is it. This is who I am. So, Dave, you also asked me to talk about the significance of the topic. Why the exploration of the influence of Kasich theology is important. Yes. So this is important because it does highlight often contestant branding of British victorious life of holiness with the indigenous African spiritual expression. There has been that kind of reference where Africans or any they had that affinity of segregation of human beings. Particularly during the time of colonial time where Africans were put in villages away from the colonial officers, the Hawait people. So the issue of segregation, which members of East Africa Revival seems to propagate is already within them. They understand what it means to be set apart, whether for good or for bad. So that was already there. And the issues to do with how Kesik emphasis on sanctification, personal surrender and working in the light shaped the movement and explains lasting impact of Mbarokore on East African spirituality. You know, Dave, we have also something in Africa which is called. Which will be saying secrution. Secrution is separation. And this happened when young men with the undergo rights of passage then get circumcised. So they would go even bush for maybe seven days prior. So that they can be taught how they will be go through the exercise of circumcision. And after circumcision another seven days. Where they also thought now you are going to behave differently. You are no longer a boy, you are now a man. So the issue of affinity between teaching of a Catholic revival and East Africa revival seemed to merge in a way. And of course, coming up with East African spirituality out of that. So they move on to questions or questions of research.

[B]

Yes, please feel free to do that. We are interested in hearing the research questions you're trying to answer. This is a dissertation and so on. And if you could kind of summarize that for us.

[C]

Okay, I'll do that. Thank you. I was looking at them. The major question Maybe I will just talk about the major question because there are also some questions. The major question is does classic theology of sanctification contribute to the socio ethical understanding of walking in the light in the East Africa Revival movement and thus influence the mission of the Anglican Church Mount Kenya region. This as I have said is more explicated through six sub questions which I may not need to dwell on them here. So that's the major question and it is out of this that we are able to to do the findings and so on. So that's the summary there. Then I go to methodology. What methodology did I use? Of course, as the question suggests, there is a massive data that ensues out of this discussion on socio ethical behavior or practices of walking in the light. You need to go to where people are and ask questions and so on. So it's qualitative in nature. And I sought to examine the prevailing situation of walking in the right. And so this is a survey based research to elicit data from the four selecting dioceses of multi Kenya region. And I also mentioned a 50 diocese. But this 50 diocese was used as a pilot standi so that you'll be able to check the correctness of these four whether they are matching with this one other. So the target population was 2,500 or 2,500 members of East Africa Revival. And I used purpose self sampling technique to get sample of respondents. And I adopted criterion based selection which allowed in getting responsible informants. So it's criterion based selection of informants and a sample size of about 400 respondents. And the respondents here, I mean committed members of East Africa Revival not in just any. So it's committed so as to get actually what it is this East Africa Revival movement. So as I had seen there, the fifth diocese did not participate in the actual study and it was there to check validity and reliability of instruments and to see whether they would yield the same results. So I used interviews and document analysis techniques to collecting data. I administered questionnaires to a group of people that we had form bishops of the four select dioceses. So for those who are reminiscent questionnaires and also what I would call prominent stakeholders. Prominent stakeholders. These are basically theologians who are diverse institutions and are acquainted with East Africa Revival movement. So five of them. Then I also use focus group design where ordinary members and theological students were also used to discuss East Africa Revival movement and this one and there was also one on one interview guide for Kiranji themselves and also the renders of East Africa Revival movement. It's good to get a distinction here I'm talking of ordinary members of East Africa Revival and also Linda's of East Africa Revival. And as we will be able to see, Linda's. I mean ordinary members were so many because of course by nature of who they are and Lindas they were few about 20. So that's about the methodology then coming to the findings. Yeah, this the findings follows data collection and the construction as per the research questions. For example, there was this very important question which actually it's like the anchors on discussion describe the way you give a testimony. Because this is actually the major thing that distinguish this is a revivalist and this one is not. All of this is the saved, this one is not. So I'm just giving that as an example. So the answer to each question would it be correlated as per the category? Whether it's the category of ordinary members or renders or Kranji. All theological students are prominent stakeholders and the source of the data was de identified or content so that you may not know who is this for ethical reason. So after that I constructed themes. This I did by sifting through the accounts to establish the most important patterns or themes which I used to write the findings. For example, if it was a demon brethren's born again testimony, how did the members talk about that? So for example, the issue of the women give a testimony because normally a member of East Africa Revival would give a testimony in a threefold way. That is how I was, how I am and then future expectations there. So that line of testimony used to be and 0 is there where you disclose yourself, you give your name, where you come from, when were you saved, how did you repent, how the journey is, how the walking, the right is and so on. So that one had a lot of responses there. Also concerning the question on Casig, many people, oral respondents did not understand what is this caseq except prominent stakeholders who of course are educated. The rest were not actually aware of the influence and up to 80% were not aware actually. And the funny thing is that the theological students 100% did not know what is this? What is this animal Catholic theology. And of course I could understand because at our level here of teaching diploma, the Iranians are not so much exposed to this. It's not part of curriculum here. And I could not be amazed so much because I don't know.

[B]

Yes. Can I ask you a question? You said amazed if I heard correctly, did this unawareness of the origins of the kind of practices that they engage in, did that surprise you?

[C]

Lack of an awareness? Are you saying the lack of an awareness. Whether it surprised me.

[B]

No. On the part of your. Sorry, on the part of your responders, did you expect them that they would already know about the influence of Keswick and the name and so on, or did it surprise you that they didn't even know about Keziak?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, they did not know. In fact, some were saying they handled Kesik in Nairombi. You know, Nairombe is the capital city of Kenya, where we have a bookshop by the name Kesik Bookshop. So I had quite a bit of respondents saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, we have Kesek Booksop in Nairobi. Just that very few others who recite Casey Convention, maybe in six days or something of the sort. And of course, with the young people, they have not traveled so much, so maybe could not know. That's okay.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, thanks. I mean, I was just thinking through here how this affected you as you were doing your interviews and your surveys and your focus groups. Maybe you could tell us a little bit more. I kind of inserted myself in some of the questions that I sent you. With certain groups, certain biblical texts were prominent. And I also noticed that you mentioned a variety of groups and a certain tendency to separate from others as a pattern. Did I get that correct? And if that's the case, maybe you could tell us a little bit about.

[C]

That, about the text that led to separation. There were dominant texts like Ephesians 5:14, which abbreviated says, wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead. In other words, to members of East Africa Revival, they took this text to mean leave the dead. And then dead here, not in the end, physically, is those who are not saved, according to them. So leave them. And this one lend to a rising group. You know, you leave, then you rise above. You rise above. And the arising group shares two testimonies. That's important to note there. They share two testimonies, that is born again testimony, that is when they got saved. And the second part of the testimony is when they were raised, that is when they were revived. So that one went on to bring separation, because when you are raised, you are above the other. When you are only saved, you are not raised. And so those who claim to be raised, they were saying they were in a glorious train to heaven. It's like everybody else is outside the train, so it's left behind. The other text is Daniel 1, 8, 16, which says, do not defile yourself. In other words, with the interpretation of revivalists is avoid anything that is affluent lifestyle that is high. You are not supposed to be at the King's table. So just like Daniel and his friends, you are not supposed to eat that kingly diet at all, at all. So separate yourself from that kind of lifestyle. So again, live. And this came to be a foundation of another splitter group called Rising up in Kisuairi Eskupa. Rising up. Then there is also another text from First Corinthians, chapter 11, verse 13 to 15. This has to do with the hair, issues of hair. And the emphasis here is that men should not wear beards and women should cover their heads. Long hair is women's glory for men. It is a disgrace. Again, you can see avenues of separation there as well. And by the way you can understand this kind of reasoning is that most of these ordinary members of the Bible were not educated theologically at all. So they were just taking a verse from the Bible as it is, and then they own it. And then they set rules and regulations based on that. Another verse is Second Corinthians, chapter 6, verse 14 to 18, which says, Come out of them. You see, this is so direct. Come out and do not be yoked with sinners. So there is no fellowship with the sinners. Separate from them and keep distance. That one is very direct there. Then also Ephesians 5, 14, 20 has the element of stand firm. Stand firm. And by the way, stand firm and the arising group, they are still even today, the dominant sprinter groups. The arising group is the one I was saying. It has two testimonies and the Standard Farm group has one that is getting saved and so on. So to stand firm here is to remain standfast. And it ran to standing firm sprinter group, which was kind of ambar class from the arising group. So the phenomenon of separation as a pattern in the movement has started to evolve.

[B]

If I understand correctly, there are different groups that identify themselves by certain names. There's the awake group, there's the arising group. There's the. I don't know what the name they would use, but the separate group, the Stand Firm group. Do I understand correctly that all these are different groupings within this larger movement?

[C]

Yes, yes, yes. They are all East Africa Revival members, but they have a certain kind of rhythm and beliefs which distance them. I remember in 2012, I was still here at Saint Andrews College, and the arising group met here. We have a high school here. They met here from Rwanda, Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya. They met there. That is the arising group. And then the same week, the standing group met at a distance place, another school for another week to run the five days of convention and so on. So these Are key though today a standing firm is the biggest of them group. The arise is a small one. And if you have read my book, you see, maybe Hawaii Arise is a small group because some of the emphasis are not acceptable so much by many people. Like issues of you cannot have holy communion, you cannot. You cannot accept dowry of your daughter. Cannot take things on credit. Yeah. Cannot take anything on credit. You cannot keep a dog because Jesus is your security and so on. So that separation still persists.

[B]

Okay, thank you. What's running through my mind is the members of this movement, are they also members of the Anglican Church or have they separated themselves out from the Anglican Church?

[C]

No, they are still members of East African. I mean, of Anglican Church. You may not even be able to know the difference so much when you are not aware of who they are. Because of course the standing group or a standing group is very, very much in the church and the church activities. But the arising group, there are some things that the church does and they don't agree. So you can sometimes see somebody take some Bible and Because now it is time for fundraise. I don't know whether you understand this fundraise in churches and so on. So matters of getting money to run the church. So they will leave, they will not wait and they will not ask even permission to go. They just go. So that indifference still is there.

[B]

I'm wondering then you did make some evaluative judgments. I think as you described the different groups. Would you like to go into that a little bit how you evaluate then this movement and its influence?

[C]

Oh yeah, you mentioned about some of the wording, sort of phrases that I used. And by the way, even as I talk about them, they are not very far from each other. Like holier than thou. Holier than thou is a common phrase even here in Kenya. It's where somebody feels morally you are superior than the rest, so you are even closer to God. You are doing godly things and so on. I also use the word compass and this one is somebody pretending to know everything. It's like a know it all person. Yeah, because you go to this brethren and it tells you what you need to do, blah, blah, blah and so on. Will not even allow you to say what you stand for. Then it's super serious. This is again somebody who thinks is superior to Allah, so is the one who has the authority. If it is matter of Christianity and ethical behaviors. There are those who come and say, you are not supposed to dress like this. You are not supposed to keep your hair like this. So they have many do's and don'ts so they are the one who gives directions then self elevated is actually somebody who as the one suggests there elevate himself herself and has no humility. It's not humble again very close to superiority complex there. Then there is hypocritical. This is a person with the higher standards or a feeling his standards are higher than others. So it's like looking down on other people Then stringent is stricting guidelines as I have said do set it downs. If you don't behave like this then you cannot be with us so we separate from you. So those are some of the ones I think which you mentioned.

[B]

Yes, those did catch my eye as I was reading.

[C]

Yeah, There was also another one that I think you'd not catch that is injurious. Injurious actually meaning like somebody. I mean something that is harmful can bring harm to somebody and this one was using it in matters of mission that this kind of a trend is injurious to mission endeavors because when you separate yourself the church is separated within that mission would have been difficult.

[B]

So you're saying that the kind of separation and excessive maybe focus. That's my word. I don't think you use that word on rules. This yes, not that not this yes that not this has an effect on the mission of the church and the mission of these groups. In fact I think a subtitle of the book was A missional investigation or a missional approach. Do you want to say a word about how this affects mission? Yeah, yeah.

[C]

This separation actually affects mission or Hinda's mission and that's what actually was the V sets that walking the right Indus mission Because this separation in itself in the sense caused confusion bringing the aspect of those who are included in the formation of brethren group and those who are excluded. So the aspect of inclusion versus exclusion would not work for any mission. And as we know mission and those who are serious with the mission we know the mission belongs to God for us we just participate in it. So we can now take a mission as ours is actually the God's mission. So in that kind of separation and confusion and kind of not having a sense of love for those who are not in one group then what are we doing? It actually curtails any mission endeavor and that's what even in my conclusion of the book there really talks about moving from exclusion to inclusion.

[B]

If I read correctly there was this critique but as you said you ended up with a note of hope as you looked at the development of this movement over time. I mean, it's good features, but also how it's evolved. So what message do you give to the members of this movement then as a result of your studies?

[C]

What messenger do I have to the Kenyan church? And you are in the church. So noting that in a nation grappling with economic strain, youth unemployment and realizing inequality, the East African revival movement's call to walk in the light offers more than spiritual renewal. One, it presents a moral framework for national transformation and cohesion. Secondly, it challenges the way into church and society to rediscover a sanctified life marked by integrity, inclusion and ethical responsibility. Thirdly, by revisiting the CESIC inspired roots of East Africa revival movement, we find a blueprint for confronting corruption, fostering community accountability and inspiring hope. Amin Handship finally there, it's a timely call to realign Kenya's socio ethical compass through the lens of revival theology. So that's the message?

[B]

That's the message, yeah. Okay, but I'm just watching the clock here a little bit. Have you received feedback so far as the book is now published? Are you getting feedback from those who have now read it?

[C]

Yeah, many of the coringes of my level where I have been able to say what I have done, they have bought several copies because I have several copies with me and they say it is good for their library. I've also been in touch with the major universities here in Kenya and they are those who have taken a few copies to go and review and also some of them bookshops and they are saying it's a good work.

[B]

Yeah. How do you hope this book will.

[C]

Be used and for us to suggest some of the people who will benefit from it, that is pastors, theologians and missiologists, also students of African Christianity and revival movement and anyone seeking to understand the spiritual DNA of East African Christianity. And so, coming to your question, the book will be used to answer the question of the origin of East Africa revival movement and also to answer the enduring question, when do Christians in East Africa speak of walking in the light? That day the book will unpack the revival's signature testimony style of How I Was, How I Am and my future hope, which is a spiritual journey known as walking in the light. And further, they are to challenge exclusionary practices and calls for a renewed inclusive missional ethic out of practice.

[B]

Well, I trust again we're going to wrap up here, but I trust that it would engage many believers and expand really their understanding of both where their practices come from and how best to continue them in the wider context of the church and in the mission of the church in your part of the world. As we wrap up here, you continue to write, I thought I might just ask what you're working on next, if you are.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, sure. Thank you, Dave. I'm thinking and reading around revival spirituality informed by integrity, inclusion and ethical responsibility. That is what I'm really working on currently and hope to have a paper out soon on this also. I'm. I'm also peer reviewing a PhD and dissertation within this context of East Africa.

[B]

Okay, so obviously these sound like big projects that will be taking quite a while then. All right then. Well, thank you so much. Maybe I should just throw out one other question. Is there anything else you wanted to tell listeners about the book that we haven't really addressed but something you'd like to say just before we wrap up? If not, that's fine, but I thought I'd throw out an open ended question here.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, maybe just to. As a way of bringing this to cross is to encourage brethren to work towards God driven missionary task as they participate in the mission of God. And because mission of God does not form brethren, but brethren should follow. Another thing is to contextualize dynamism in their fellowship meetings and that brethren allow worship style that will be informed, inclusive participation and is compliant with mission day. Another thing is fundamental work of the mission is not just Christian conversion but also responsible coexistence with one's neighbor. Yeah. And also a change on the path of brethren from exclusive to the inclusive tendency of mutual Christian coexistence. Thank you.

[B]

Well, very, very good. Thank you for that summary. I want to say, T. Robinson, thank you so much for being on this book podcast and we definitely wish you well and wish you know, a good effect as people engage with your research, with your writing and with your recommendations for the church. Thank you for being on the podcast.

[C]

Thank you so much, Dave. I really appreciate and thank you for the chance to be in the podcast. I appreciate this. So, so.