Sahan Jayasuriya, "Don't Say Please: The Oral History of Die Kreuzen" (Feral House, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Rebecca Buchanan
Guest: Sahan Jayasuriya (author of Don’t Say Please: The Oral History of Die Kreuzen, Feral House, 2025)
Date: September 26, 2025

This episode centers on Sahan Jayasuriya’s new book documenting the pivotal Midwestern punk band Die Kreuzen. Through oral history, Jayasuriya weaves the voices of band members and contemporaries into a portrait of 1980s Milwaukee underground music, the band's lasting influence, and the scene’s overlooked vibrancy. The discussion explores the roots of the book, Die Kreuzen’s unique evolution, the realities of Midwest punk, memories and myths around their records, and the enduring legacy of a band that’s a “band’s band.”

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin and Motivation of the Book

• Personal Connection: Sahan, a Milwaukee resident, grew up loving punk, discovering Die Kreuzen in his 20s. Their local roots and outsider status fascinated him, prompting the desire to document their history.

• Discovery Journey: Like many, Sahan found Die Kreuzen from “breadcrumbs” left by bigger acts—thank you lists, T-shirts, tours—ultimately leading him from mainstream punk to their legendary “Cows and Beer” 7-inch.

• Genesis of the Book: After a well-received local article during Die Kreuzen's 2012 reunion shows, band members suggested a book. Sahan, new to music writing at the time, took almost a decade to compile and complete the oral history.

  “I spent all of my 30s working on this book… There are worse things you could accomplish in your 30s.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [05:36]

2. Die Kreuzen and the Midwest Scene

• Scene as Flyover: The Midwest, often dismissed in wider punk histories, gave birth to crucial bands and singular hybrids; Milwaukee and Twin Cities get special attention.

• Midwestern Barriers: The region’s remoteness, climate, and lack of genre-pure scenes shaped Die Kreuzen’s music and forced cross-pollination, making them more eclectic and visionary than some coastal contemporaries.

• Practicing Indoors: Harsh winters led to intense rehearsal routines, tightening the band’s sound.

  “I think the limited access and the climate of the Midwest shapes those bands a lot…we’re just going to hole up in this basement and we're just going to practice.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [12:24]

• Eclectic Influences: From Cheap Trick and Bowie to Wire, British punk, glam, and prog, Die Kreuzen filtered a vast record collection into their own evolving sound.

3. Musical Evolution and Uniqueness

• Beyond Hardcore: Early Die Kreuzen played ferocious, tight hardcore but quickly evolved, taking in post-punk, goth, and college rock without simply copying trends.

• Intentionality: The band’s progress was always deeply conscious; they wanted to sound like themselves, not simply echo their influences.

  "…especially once the first album came out, Die Kreuzen really didn’t sound like anyone else. They sounded like Die Kreuzen.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [19:57]

• Cross-Scene Camaraderie: Die Kreuzen played with national acts like Minor Threat, Black Flag, and X, but their story is as much about local struggles and victories.

  “Those were other bands…in the same committee that we were in, just in other parts of the country.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [20:25]

4. Book Structure and Oral History Approach

• Voices Interwoven: Sahan deliberately embedded multiple perspectives—band, scene peers, critics—through the chapters, mixed within chronological album-based narrative.

• Legacy Voices: The final chapter compiles testimonials from musicians including John Reis, John Wurster, Neko Case, and others with Sahan absent—creating a space for homage.

  “I kind of thought, well, it'd be cool to just have this be its own chapter where the band members aren't in here at all…so they're not in the room when people are telling them how great they are.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [62:38]

5. Album Artwork & Visual Ephemera

• Richard Kohl: All album covers were designed by band friend/manager Richard Kohl, whose elusive presence became almost legendary. Sahan describes the detective work needed to locate him—an emblem of the book’s depth.

• Intentional Design: Every record sleeve and visual detail had a purpose; Sahan emphasizes the importance of album art to the band’s identity, echoing Brian Eno’s maxim on the role of artwork.

  “Everything they did was so intentional and right down to the album art…”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [29:33]

• Photo Archives: The book includes rare, candid, and unseen gig photography and flyers, blending professional and “disposable camera” imagery to evoke the era’s feel.

6. Recording Realities

• Studio Challenges: ‘80s bands often struggled to find engineers open to recording punk—most studios expected “REO Speedwagon” types.

• Producers & Evolution: Early work was done in Detroit with Rick Canzano; later, the crucial shift was working with Butch Vig at Smart Studios, as their sound grew more textured and experimental.

  “It’s not even like, okay, we gotta go to the person who knows how to make a hardcore band sound good. It's, we're gonna go to the studio that will allow us to play this kind of music in there.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [38:15]

• DIY Methods: Stories of camping on tour, self-repairing vans, and penniless adventures capture the era’s grittiness.

  ”…if not for Eric Tunison, those guys might still be stranded in the desert right now.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [24:30]

7. Elusive Mainstream Success

• Record Label Conundrum: Die Kreuzen was perennially on the cusp—too heavy for college rock, too melodic for hardcore, confounding major labels and booking agents.

• Timing and Sound: The band’s refusal to be pigeonholed, their continued evolution, and the still-unformed “alternative” marketplace of the late ‘80s likely derailed any shot at commercial breakthrough.

  “Record labels' jobs is to sell products…De Kreuzen were not, you couldn't just put them into one box and that's what made them so great. But it definitely hurt them.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [46:21]

• Influence without Fame: Their eclecticism became an inspiration for a generation of boundary-pushing musicians.

• Industry Commentary: Sahan and Rebecca riff on other bands (Replacements, Husker Dü, Soul Asylum, R.E.M.) wrestling with similar industry frustration.

8. Legacy and Cultural Impact

• A Band’s Band: Die Kreuzen are compared to “Big Star” as the ultimate band’s band—admired desperately among fellow musicians and cult fans.

• Lasting Influence: Testimonies confirm the band's technical prowess, ambition, and style had a seismic effect, cited as pivotal by creators across heavy music, indie, punk, and alt-rock.

  “So many kids…point to those records as being super influential. And, you know, there’s so many kids who are just trying to, you know, play that fast and play that tight, you know. So I just wanted to give them their flowers, you know, as cliché as that sounds.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [66:27]

• No Regrets: The band called all their own shots—never releasing music or making choices handed down from labels.

  “No one ever told us how to make our records. Like, everything we did, like, we did exactly what we wanted to do.”
  —Sahan Jayasuriya [60:54]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “They practiced a lot because they wanted to, but also, I mean, there wasn't nearly as much else to do.” —Sahan [14:08]
• “They were shaped by so many other things…the book… also tells a really good chunk of the story of just what was happening in the 80s underground.” —Sahan [16:08]
• “The music making process starts the moment you hit record, and it ends when it's, you know, a piece of plastic you can hold in your hand… Every step along the way matters.” —Brian Eno, via Sahan [25:55]
• “We digress, we're Midwesterners.” —Rebecca [11:02]
• “There was no hope for having a career back then. They were doing this because they loved doing it. So that makes it almost even more special.” —Sahan [24:18]
• “Those are great records. But, yeah, I just think it was an interesting time because…I think the other thing too is that people talk about the success of Nevermind and how major labels thought as being blindsiding. Now, again, I'm younger. To me, it's so obvious that that record was going to do well…” —Sahan [60:08]
• “My focus right now is really giving, giving this book the push it deserves and, you know, hoping that these records get the attention that I think that they deserve.” —Sahan [68:43]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Getting Into Die Kreuzen and Book Origins: [02:10–05:43]
• Midwest Scene Discussion & Unique Hardships: [09:01–16:05]
• Musical Evolution & Distinct Sound: [15:59–21:23]
• Touring, Jobs, and DIY Realities: [21:35–24:40]
• Album Artwork Creation & Story: [25:28–31:41]
• Oral History Structure & Gathering Materials: [31:41–36:42]
• Recording Process & Producers: [37:44–43:51]
• Major Label Frustrations & Influence: [45:23–56:59]
• Legacy & Impact Chapter: [62:35–66:27]
• Final Thoughts and Promotion: [67:36–69:13]

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Structure and Flow

The conversation moved organically from the band’s discovery to their place in music history, with anecdotes, technical insights, cultural analysis, and personal reverence woven throughout. Both host and guest maintain a conversational and enthusiastic tone, balancing deep fandom with critical perspective. The episode closes with Sahan expressing hope the book will bring wider attention to Die Kreuzen, and an invitation for further discussion.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a rich, affectionate, and detailed look at Die Kreuzen’s music, the Milwaukee scene, and what it means for a band to carve an identity on the margins. Through both the oral history format of the book and the substance of the interview, listeners are shown the intricate web of creative influences, integrity, and DIY perseverance that propelled Die Kreuzen to cult status. The podcast serves as both an invitation and a manual for future deep dives—into the band, the book, and the era itself.

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Transcript

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[Marshall Po]

Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Hello, this is Rebecca Buchanan, host of New Books Network, New Books and Popular Culture. And today I am here with Sahan Jayasariya, who is the author of don't say Please, the oral history of D. Creutzen. So thank you for being here with me on New Books Network.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Yeah, thanks for having me, Rebecca. This is wonderful.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

So could you start by talking a little bit about this book and, like, how it came to be, why you wanted to write about this, like, band from the middle of the Midwest and put this book together?

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Sure. So I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. That's where Du Cortzin's from. And like a lot of people, I got into punk rock in my teens and I was led There by Gateway bands, the Usual Suspects of Nirvana, Green Day, Beastie Boys, Rage against the Machine, all those things that, you know, they leave these little breadcrumbs for you. It's usually in the form of like thank you lists or T shirts or, you know, bands are take on tour or whatever. And I eventually discovered hardcore and got really into hardcore as like a teenager, you know. And again, Usual Suspects, Minor Threat, Black Flag, Bad Brains, Void, you know, all that stuff. And that came from, you know, more contemporary bands like, you know, Refees, American Nightmare, Converge, that kind of thing. So when I was in my early 20s, I figured I'd kind of heard all the, you know, really awesome 80s hardcore that was going to blow me away. And I was working at a record store at the time and my boss turned me on to this, this band called decroitzen and the 7 inch called cows and Beer. And immediately after hearing it, it just, it stopped me in my tracks. I wasn't prepared for it at all. And partly because it didn't fit into my timeline of, you know what. I understood hardcore music to sound like that early on it was way tighter, it was way more aggressive vocally. It just. It blew me away. And then on top of that, I was like, and they're from here. And I sort of knew of those guys because they would come into the store because one of them actually used to work at that shop, you know, years before I did. So I would see them around and I would always like ask them questions about their band. And it just really fascinated me because I started like piece, you know, just the basic understanding of what they did together. And I was like, man, they put these work records on Touch and Go and they toured with these bands and you know, the. The question I kept coming back to is like, why don't, you know, why don't more people talk about this band? How come it took me this long to hear about them? And. And eventually they played some partial reunion shows in 2012. I say partial because the original guitar player, Brian Agnes was unable to participate. So they had a friend of theirs, Jay Tiller, fill in with. With Brian's blessing. And I took that as an opportunity to write like a short form piece of their piece on their history. I guess at the time I was. I was writing about music locally in Milwaukee and that piece was pretty well received locally and just throughout the country. And around that time, one or two of the band members kind of pitched the idea to me. They said they thought about doing a book before, but never really got around to it and asked if it would be something I was interested in. And I wasn't really sure because I'd only been writing about music for less than a year at that point, and I read and still really only read music books anyway. So I felt like, well, I know how these things are supposed to go, but I don't know if I'm ready to do it. So I kicked the idea around for a couple years, and then in 2015, I just started with, you know, no plan besides, I'm going to write a book about Tson. And I started talking to the band members and started, you know, talking with them about maybe other people to have in the book. And. And that was. Yeah, it was 10 years ago, so.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

And now we're here.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

We're here. I know I spent all of my 30s working on this book, so, I.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Mean, there are worse things you could accomplish in your 30s, so.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Right, true. It's true.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

So.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

So I mean it. But, you know, part of it, too, is like, you know, I. I'd say one of the biggest things to happen with. With music in the last 10 years has to do with the, you know, the way that technology has shaped it, the way we access it, and the way that we are exposed to it. Um, and, you know, as is plenty, there's plenty of negative things I can say about streaming. We all can. But the maybe one and only good thing is that it does give people access. And in, you know, the last decade, we've seen plenty of bands go from being, you know, obscure to, you know, finally finding an audience. You know, I mean, I think of a band like American Football is like a perfect example of that. Like, that was as much of an afterthought as that band could have ever been. And they're playing massive, massive venues now, and they're like, you know, to the front of the line for some people, when you talk about sort of Midwest 90s emo. Right. So I feel like now is a great time for this book to be out there, because now people don't need to go, you know, finding their nearest indie record store and, you know, hope they have these records in stock. They can check it out from the convenience of their smartphone whenever they want to. So, yeah, like, it probably could have taken me less time if maybe I had, you know, a publisher involved earlier on in the process. Because the first thing Christina from Farrell has told me when. When they got involved was, okay, stop. Like, you were talking to so many people. You're done. Like, you have more than enough Material here. And it was really her guidance that helped me kind of, you know, literally stop what I was doing and then look at what I had and form that into, you know, essentially what. What is now available for purchase.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yeah, I love what you say about this is. It feels like this is a time when a lot of people are writing about some of the bands that are very like, for most people, look at them as sort of regional bands even. Right. Like, so I just interviewed a couple weeks ago a bunch of members of Swizz, right, Because they have a new book coming out as well that is similar that kind of tells their. They're all sort of popping in and telling their story. And so, I mean, but they are sort of this east coast. And often when people. People think about hardcore or punk in general, right? We think about. They think about east coast, they think about West Coast. And I mean, I grew up in. Outside of the Twin Cities, so I grew up in the Twin Cities area and was going to shows all throughout the 80s when I was in high school and junior high and high school. So I think the Midwest has some of the best bands around. But can you talk a little bit about. Because I think what I appreciate about your book is that also it talks about this band, but it gives us sort of a picture into a specific scene and a specific time that. And location. Right. That often gets. Is. Becomes a flyover. Just like, you know, we're considered flyover states. So can you talk a little bit about like, Milwaukee in the Midwest and what, like decroit's meant for that space and. Yeah, just being in the here at that time.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Yeah. I think, you know, depending on who you talk to, if they're a music fan, you say Milwaukee. You know, some people might say Lounge Femmes. Some people might say the Promise Ring. And some people might say to Groitzen. I guess some people might say the Bodines too. But the. Remember that the. The theme song from Party of Five?

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yeah, yeah, No, I know. They were just touring, I think. I think my sister saw them in like, somewhere in Minnesota this summer or last summer. It was like. I'm like, they have one album, but they. Hey, you know what? If you can keep touring on your one album, go for it. I mean, they have more than one.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

But I know what you mean, though. They have many, but yes. Shouts out to the podium.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

I mean, I will say. I mean, I really love that album.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Okay.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

I'm not saying it's bad.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

No, that gray one, right?

[Rebecca Buchanan]

There's a guitar on the COVID I know one with like. I can see it. See, I can see it in my head. My daughter has inherited all my tapes and CDs because she loves them all. So I'm gonna now dig through her room and see when I can find it.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Sure, sure. But, but yeah, I think for some people when you say Milwaukee, they. They immediately think to Courtson. Right. In the same way that, you know, the Twin Cities. Some would say, who screwed you? Replacements or Soul Asylum, maybe. Soul Asylum. I. It's funny because the.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

I mean, that's who I say too.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

I was gonna, I mean, and I. For whatever, for whatever reason, I thought of Magnolias, which. But, but like, I obviously know, I mean, no disrespect to the Magnolias, but they would say Soul song before them for sure.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

But, but yeah, I mean, I have a list.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Right, right. Of course, actually, and for me personally, because like I wasn't like there in the 80s. When I think of Minneapolis, obviously I think of who's crew Replacements, but I also think of Dillinger 4. Like, I think it.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Oh, there you go.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

I think of D4 big time, actually, because that's kind of my. Well, you know, it's my age. Right, it is.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Because I was wondering if you'd say Semisonic.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

I do. I forgot they're from there too.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yeah, but who really? It's Tripp Shakespeare, because.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

No, right.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

That was my all time favorite.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

People talk. Really. They speak really highly of that band. Those guys seem really nice. So. But yeah, we digress. No, we digress. We're Midwesterners. So. Yeah, I, I think for a lot of people, especially when you think, when they think of hardcore, they think of De Courten and they might not think of anything else because I mean, I, you know, I grew up here, I grew up outside of Milwaukee, but I've, you know, I've spent pretty much all my adult life in Milwaukee. So I know we have awesome hardcore bands here. And if you're, you know, someone who is, you know, more so into underground music, you might know that too. But you know, in the grand scheme of things, we have, you know, a few, you know, claims to fames as, as artists are concerned. But. But yeah, I think, I think a big part of this story has to do with the fact that the band was from the Midwest. And I think Access has a lot to do with that. You know, I'm not even going to say because there wasn't like any like music industry here, but I mean there wasn't really any music industry in D.C. either. But you know, the difference between Milwaukee and a place like D.C. or LA or New York or Boston is that they had these unified scenes that focused on one specific genre, right? And Milwaukee has. And back then had a music scene for sure, but it wasn't necessarily a hardcore music scene. So, you know, de Croitson would play shows and, you know, sometimes people got it and sometimes people didn't. Especially earlier on when hardcore is a relatively new thing, you know. You know, because back then things kind of. They traveled slower. So, you know, it might be sort of passe in LA by 1983, but it might still be finding its way into the Midwest by 1983. Right. So I think being a Midwestern band because you can't just like, you know, walk out your door and see Black Flag every weekend or, you know, go see Minor Threat every weekend or X or the Germs or Dad Kennedys or, you know, Gangrene or Jerry's Kids, whoever, right? They spent more time. And also the weather, you know, being that it's very cold here for a good chunk of the year, you spend a lot more time indoors listening, right? And when you spend more time listening, that's going to shape the way you write. And, you know, I love, you know, the first wave of American hardcore bands for sure, but. But, you know, the great ones are, you know, the great ones and there's a lot of ones that are good, but a lot of those good ones kind of sound the same. And I think part of that came from, you know, they were probably just listening to punkin hardcore. Right? But, you know, these were dudes who grew up in the Midwest. So obviously they're huge Cheap Trick fans. You know, I mean, half of the bands originally from Rockford, that's where Cheap Trick's from. So they grew up with stuff like Cheap Trick and Aerosmith and also, you know, glam stuff like Sweet and Bowie and, you know, and you know, eventually they. They got the punk records and they started getting into, you know, Sex Pistols and clash and 999 and, you know, all that stuff was really shaping. Obviously Wire was like a huge influence on them and all the. That stuff started shaping the way they wrote. But I don't know. I mean, I only know what. What this band's history was like as them being a Midwest band. But I can't imagine that they would be spending as much time indoors listening if they were in Calif. Right. So I just think like, the limited access and the climate of the Midwest shapes those bands a lot because it just it forces them to just. Well, I don't really have anything else to do. So we're just going to hole up in this basement and we're just going to practice, you know, and. And practice was a huge part of what they did, too. And, you know, as they kind of progressed and started putting out records and playing live, you know, people say it in the book and people just say it all the time like they were a ferocious live band and it's just because they practiced a lot. And I. Yeah, I mean, they practiced a lot because they wanted to, but also, I mean, there wasn't nearly as much else to do, you know, so well.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

And I think, like, in the book and just in general when you're talking, it makes me think of when you're in the Midwest and you're growing. I mean, I think of it growing up in the Midwest. You can't go to a show nine times out of 10 that has a whole show of hardcore bands. Right. You're not.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

At least. At least back then. Yeah. Right.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yes. Now. Now, maybe, but you're not going in the 80s. So, like, you also have. You're listening to even live, multiple bands, like, even as a. As musician. So you're learning and you're hearing and you're making connections with bands from all different genres because we're. I mean, there's no hardcore club, you know, that you write or. There's not a huge, like. Like, you know, basement scene or that kind of thing that you can be involved in.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Right, right. I think maybe if you'd go on tour, you'd maybe get lucky in some cities that maybe had those kinds of scenes, you know, like in the case of a city like dc, they just kind of built that whole discord scene there. But, you know, it's not like every city you went to, you know, every city had their own discord, you know, it wasn't. Wasn't quite that easy, you know. So, yeah, I mean, they were definitely playing with tons of bands. And, you know, when you tour, too, you stay with people and then they're showing you new music. And, you know, I think one thing that I realized in doing, you know, the research for this book and, you know, is like reading it when it was kind of close to its sort of final, final draft, I realized that it. Yeah, it tells the story of this band for sure, but it also kind of tells a really good chunk of the story of just what was happening in the 80s underground. Because of everything that this band did. They were shaped by so many Other things, which I'm sure we can get into that. But, you know, they, you know, they put out this, you know, really great first album, which is, you know, kind of quintessential super fast, tight, ferocious hardcore. And even then, it's still pretty different from some of its contemporaries, if you kind of compare it to, you know, other records that were out at the time. But, you know, that record is pretty much like, at least for people who like that style of music, it's kind of like unanimously loved. Where do you go after that? Like, you can't top. You know, for some people, they call that a perfect record. How do you do better? Well, you just do something else entirely, you know. And, you know, by the mid-80s, there was so many amazing things that was happening besides hardcore, you know, and they were definitely getting into, you know, the, the first couple Cure records and the REM Records and the Birthday Party and, you know, like, Susie and the Banshees and Sisters of Mercy, all the, all the 480 stuff. And they were definitely, you know, getting shaped by those bands. But they were, they were never like, just copycats, you know, they were always more interested in, if not consciously. They would just, they would absorb these influences and sort of process them through what they were already doing. So it wasn't, it wasn't like they pivoted and just became this, you know, 4 AD, you know, copycat band. It was just like they were filtering that through the hardcore stuff they were doing as well as their old influences of, like, glam and Prague. I mean, they're big, like, Rush fans and stuff like that. So when you put that all together, it's like this weird new thing, right? It's not, you know, and I, I, I hate to harp on them, but, like, a band like Blast, who is just so obviously just copying Black Flag, right down to the fact that they would, you know, play the same guitar that Greg Ginn played. Like, it's, it's a bit much, you know, I mean, like, you can. You could do just a little better, right? And I mean, like. And, like, for what they were like, yeah, they were very good, but it was just like, it was pretty clear what they were trying to do. And I think, especially once the first album came out, de Quertin really didn't sound like anyone else. They. They sounded like de Croitson.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yeah. One of the things I think is really interesting in the book is, right, because it is a. It's an oral history, so lots interviews with lots of people, and we can talk a little Bit about that. But you can hear when they're talking, they are talking about all the different bands and styles of music that sort of influenced and impacted who they were. Like, yeah. And I. And sometimes they're not sure how they came to be. I think two of them were both like, I didn't introduce us to Sisters of Mercy, so. And so did. Right. Like, but. But you. Yeah, but you kind of see that they aren't just like, sometimes you listen to band, not that it's good or bad, it's just different. Right? Like, some bands will be like, just name dropping. All the bands that are kind of in their circle and they are not doing. They don't do that. Right throughout this and talking about.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Yeah, I mean, like, the bands that they did like to play with and they would always say, like, yeah, we wanted to play with bands like, who's cardio, Right? They were interested in bands who were. Who were interested in being progressive. And, you know, early on, you know, they tell me about some of these bills. They're like, yeah, like, we played with Minor Threat. And like, for me, I'm just like, oh, my God. But to them, you know, I mean, they played with Minor Threat, they played with Black Flag, they played with X, they played with that brains. You know, if they were touring around that time and they came through the Midwest, De Quertin probably played with them. And for me, I was like, oh, my God, this is so, you know, crazy or whatever. And they're very early on, they were quick to just explain it was like, yeah, but you have to understand, those were other bands. Those were other bands that were in, you know, the same committee that we were in, just in other parts of the country. And, you know, I had to quickly realize, like, yeah, you know, it's. It's. It's different for them than it is for me, you know. And like in the book, Ian McKay even says, like, I'm paraphrasing him here, but he says something. The effect of like, you know, like, I look at those guys as peers. Yeah, very matter of fact, you know, so it's just. It's crazy for me. You know, I get. I. Minor Threat was a band for such a short amount of time, you know, they split up before I was even born by like two years. So the idea of even being able to see them at all is just like. Just something else. And I'm like, and you played with them like, what? Like, it's just, you know, as a music fan.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

But yes, and they were right. And I think that's one of the things. Like the, like, they talk a bit, you know, in the book, you talk a bit about, like how they had to, you know, they were all working at some pizza place, was it?

[Sahan Jayasariya]

They were working at Pizza Man. Yeah, there's a. There's a pizza place here called Pizza man. And yeah, they were all, at one point, they were all working there at the same time. And some members were better than others about letting them know that they were going on tour. And others were just like, oh, yeah, I forgot to tell you, we're leaving, right?

[Rebecca Buchanan]

And then they come back.

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[Rebecca Buchanan]

But I think like that it speaks to very much like being in a band, like being in this kind of band in the 80s, right? Like that kind of thing. Like, like, if we can tour, we can tour. We're just all gonna throw things in, you know, in the van and we're gonna go like, yeah. When I was talking to Swizz, Amanda Makai, Ian's sister, was saying, like, she was like, I don't know why my parents let me get into this van at like 16 and be like, peace out, I'm going But like, that was the case. Like, I was like, this is the first time. Like I said, I mean, it might not be the first time, but that I remember a band talking about like, you like, camping? I'm like, oh, that's kind of genius. Camping. Instead of just like sleeping in the van or you know, like the peanut butter or, you know, but you sort of get the whole, like. Yeah, it's. They were just very much attract, you know, trying to do what they could do and had jobs to get some money.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Right. I mean, the, the band was the focus at that time. Right. But it's, it's interesting too because, you know, like now if there's people who are just like, they're trying to actively, you know, have a career in music, like, there was no hope for having a career back then. They were doing this because they loved doing it. So that makes it almost even more special that they were just like, you know, willing to, you know, sacrifice having like a comfortable life because they just loved playing music so much. Right. Yeah. The camping thing was crazy because I'd never heard of anyone doing that, but I was like, oh, it's like $5 to run a campground. That's kind of genius, you know. You know, there's a. There. I mean, those are smart guys. Those are really smart guys. You know, especially like, like Eric the drummer, he's like the resident mechanic and you know, he was the one who was fixing the engine and in the rain in the middle of the night. You know, I, I jokingly say sometimes, like, if not for Eric Tunisan, those guys might still be stranded in the desert right now. You know, because it's every band member had like their, their role that went beyond whatever instrument they played. And that's so key, you know, you need to have that sort of the perfect trivia team, right when you're, when you're on tour. Because someone's gotta, you know, figure out how to do xyz, you know.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yeah, like, I want to talk about the recording, but before that, like one of the things that came up throughout the book was the album covers themselves, right. And so, and even like those getting put together. So can you talk a little bit about that? Who they had do the covers and just because that, that seemed to be an important thing and something that people.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Remember about all their albums 100%. And you know, I always love their album art. And I think part of that came from. Do you remember in the 90s when PBS did that like 10 part history of Rock and Roll series? Do you Remember this? It was like the. It was like in the mid-90s. So it like, ended with like the post Nirvana thing. Anyway, it was a long, long, long series. And I watched that when I was a kid. And then I revisited it when I was probably in my late teens or early twenties. And a recurring interviewee on that series is Brian Eno. And Eno said, somewhere on there, I forget who he was talking about, but he was talking about. He said the music making process starts the moment you hit record, and it ends when it's, you know, a piece of plastic you can hold in and every step along the way matters. And he kind of said something about the importance of having a great album cover. And I was young enough for that to really make an impression on me. And it was from that moment on, I started looking at record covers way differently. And I started to realize I'm like the person who, when I go see a movie, I sit through the credits because I was like, someone's job was to do this. And even though they might just look like text and, you know, maybe that's the case, like, this is someone's time to shine. I'm going to let him, you know, I'm going to engage with this because someone put the time in to do this. But, you know, of a great record cover, you might not even know the band, but you know, the album cover, you know, because it just sticks out. And in the case of Jacozen, their record covers really did. They were all designed by friend of theirs who was kind of a briefly. He'd briefly managed them as well. His name was Richard Cole. And when we started working on this book, they kept talking about Richard and Richard this and Richard that. And I was like, cool. Like, how do I reach him? Like, man, we lost touch with him. We have no idea, like, how to reach him. We haven't talked to him like 20 years. And it wasn't like a personal thing. It's just friends drift apart and whatever. And I was like, well, do you know how I can find him? And they'd be like, well, maybe so and so. And so I would just like every once in a while, you know, try and talk to someone. Like, oh, I don't know. I haven't talked to Richard in however long. And there's this guy in Milwaukee who's a kind of a friend associate of the band. His name's Carl Polucek. And Carl would check in on me from time to time and specifically be like, have you found Richard yet? I'm like, no, Man, I'm trying, dude. It's really hard. I don't know where this guy is. And he's like, well, I can maybe throw a Hail Mary pass. I know someone, one of my old instructors in college, she might know how to reach Richard. And he had graduated from college, like decades ago at that point. And by some chance he still was in contact with his college instructor. And he reached out to her and they re. It was like five connections deep or whatever. And a couple days later, all of a sudden, there's an email from Richard Cole. And as it turns out, he was exactly where they left him. You know, they went out to the west coast in probably 83, 84, and he just stayed in San Francisco. And he'd never left. He'd just been there the whole time. But the reason why it took so long to find him is because he's like off the grid and like, doesn't like the Internet. And I thought that was so sick. Like, this man doesn't get this is how. Like, he just doesn't care, you know, so he was just like, like no Internet. And he's so, so kind and really funny. So. Yeah. So then we set up time to talk. I was so happy that I was. I got to talk to them because he had so much insight and, you know, I knew I wanted to talk about these album covers, but I knew from talking with him for five minutes that he was going to have a lot to say about. About the album art. And I was right. You know, he knew exactly, you know, what he did, you know, how he did it, why he did it, you know, and I just thought, you know, because this isn't really something I would see too much in music books. They would maybe address the album covers and maybe just say, oh, here's what it is. But I just thought it'd be a cool thing to do, is to talk about his creative process because of clearly he put so much work into it. Just the band in general. If I could sum them up with one word. It was intentional. Everything they did was so intentional and right down to the album art, because everything he did, he knew exactly why he did it. So I'm glad people are latching onto that. And that makes me really happy because I think that's kind of one of the cooler things that I decided to include in there is to kind of really do a cool kind of behind the scenes breakdown of how those, those record sleeves were made, you know, because this pre Photoshop, right?

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yeah, I know. I thought that was. And I Thought that was really interesting, too, because as you said, like, pre Photoshop and being able to kind of talk about, well, I think I did this. I zoomed in and there was one where he had somebody take pictures and whoever it was was like, that's not going to work. And then got really. But I really. Yes, I really love that because I like. I do. I mean, I agree with Brian, you know. Right. Like, there's so much that goes into an album and even a band and putting together a band. So you also. I mean, you interviewed a number of people and kind of interspersed it. So you didn't do. One of the things you did was not make it like, okay, I'm going to have one chapter that's other people talking about the band, and then everything else is kind of the band. So can you talk a little bit maybe about that choice? And some of the people that you reached out to or, like, came across that you were able to talk to about this and why you really wanted to have multiple kind of narratives and not just here's the bands talking about the band, but here's other people who were impacted by the band talking about the band.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Sure. I'm glad you see it that way, because I kind of do see it as. There's one chapter where everyone else is in it, but there are other voices kind of dispersed throughout the book. But I would say a good chunk of them is in the last chapter, which is the chapter about their influence and legacy. But, no, you're right. People who worked kind of with them, obviously, Richard, we spoke about him earlier. But then people like Corey Rusk, who runs Touch and Go Records, and, you know, other people who were kind of around at the time, so people like Steve Albini. And yeah, some of those voices are heard, you know, throughout the course of. Of the book, just kind of based on if I talk to someone and I realized that they were, like, weighing in on a specific album or a specific song or something that was more than just like, you know, here's why I like the band. I just kind of make note of that and find a way to put that into, you know, whatever chapter made sense to have it in. And, I mean, I knew when I started working on the book that's like, oh, like, obviously this is going to go chronologically and it's re. It's pretty cut and dry. Like, yeah, each album can be a chapter, you know, and that made my job a lot easier. So, yeah, like, if I was talking to, I don't know, like, when I Was talking to like Justin Trosper from Unwound. And he's talking about like the first album and how it sounds like, you know, hardcore punk that played with like a, you know, speed metal level of precision. Like I was like, oh, that will clearly go in the chapter about the first record, you know. But I think it was important because yeah, it can get kind of, I want to say boring, but it's just like, okay, it's just the same for five voices just kind of talking to each other. My narrative voice is in the book throughout there to kind of guide things along. And I thought, yeah, maybe including some of these other voices just throughout the book kind of just gave it more of a. More of a variety and maybe made it feel like, you know, less of just like a. I don't know. I won't say boring, but yeah, it's boring. You know, just to say.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

To hear the traditional kind of.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Traditional kind of thing. Right? Yeah, yeah, like.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

And it seems like the band was really. I'm guessing it was the band that was very helpful about like giving you photos, giving you like ephemera, that kind of thing to put through. So throughout the book you have images and photos and like all the album colors good. But also a lot of candid stuff that.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Yeah, so, yeah, I think a good amount of the photos and flyers and stuff. I'd say a good amount of those came from some of the band members personal archives for sure. But once Feral House got involved with the book, we. We did a few just open calls for to have photos of the band and we got. Not nearly as much as I was hoping for, but we got a good amount. And. And there's people too who the band would talk to me about. Like, oh, like there's a guy named Jay Brown. Like you gotta talk to him. His photos, he shot tons of great photos of that venue stashes. Um, he has some great. Who Screwdoo photos actually. You should check them out. But. But yeah, just they're. They're either telling me people to reach out to or you know, I would just because I like, I love you know, like pro shot or semi pro shot. You know, like just the. I guess it was in the late 80s, whatever. Whatever level of expertise you'd put on like a, like a Charles Peterson photograph. Right. Like something like that is great. But I also love the stuff that was like shot by someone with like a point and shoot or like a dispos camera or like, you know, in the late 70s and early 80s they had the 110 format, which is like little squares, which. Yeah, right. And like, those are really low res, but those are cool too. And there's great 110 photos of them when they're playing, I think someone's house on like one of their. Their first, like, major tours and stuff. So, you know, coming across a lot of stuff was great. And. Yeah, and Richard, he gave me stuff too. Like you were talking about when they were shooting the photos of the October File album cover and the person shooting it was like, this isn't going to work. He sent me the contact sheet for that, which is. That's the kind of stuff that I love. I really like. I love, you know, a good, like, director's commentary and stuff like that. So for me to see like a contact sheet and seeing all the shots that didn't make it, it's my catnip. I love that stuff. So. Yeah, so. But there's plenty of people who, you know, they gave me photos who, you know, when I was showing it to the band members, they were like, I've never seen this picture before. Which that, to me is like, okay, I did it. Right? Like, they're like, I've never seen this photo. But where did you get this from? Like, I've. I. Because now, you know, I think we probably are aware of, I guess, most photographs that exist of ourselves. Right. So, you know, for. For. For them to say that to me, I felt like, oh, okay, I did it. You know, I d. I dug deep enough and I found some that they didn't even know existed. So.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

No, I mean, I love that because it is right during that time frame. Like, you could go to a show, you might take a picture, and then it ends up you in a box somewhere. You might never see that band again. Right. And then it's like, holy crap. They dig. So, yes, the whole kind of somebody have this picture or some ephemera that nobody knew still existed. Right. A poster, whatever.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Right, right. Because, you know, some of these things too, a lot of these venues, they don't exist anymore. Right. And, you know, all that's left is, you know, however people chose to document them and even. Yeah, in some cases, you know, there's probably more photos out there, but they're sitting in someone's storage unit or in a shoebox in someone's closet or, you know, in someone's basement. You know, and these people are unaware that they have something that is, you know, could be, you know, cherished if someone just knew it existed. Right.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yeah, exactly. So another thing that I think that is important. I mean, they recorded, what, six albums?

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Four full lengths? Yeah, four full lengths.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

And then. And you sort of talk about that and we get an idea of the recording process, which I think, again, people don't often realize how different recording, even 30, 40 years ago was than recording today and how much it cost to just be in a studio. So can you talk a little bit about, like, some of that and some of the recording process and what you kind of found and learned?

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Sure. I mean, it's probably no surprise to anyone. Like, I'm a musician, and that's why that stuff is in there. There's a lot of, like. I tried not to get too in the weeds of, like, the nerdy gear talk, but sometimes I can't help myself because this stuff is too fascinating. But, you know, you know, back in the early 80s, you're playing this kind of music. It's not even like, okay, we gotta go to the person who knows how to make a hardcore band sound good. It's. We're gonna go to the studio that will allow us to play this kind of music in there. And I know that sounds insane, but it's true. Because most of these people, these recording engineers that were used to recording, you know, the REO Speedwagons of the world, or, you know, the. The local REO Speedwagon ripoffs of the world, you know, they didn't see this music as viable. You know, it wasn't seen as, you know, obviously it definitely wasn't seen as, you know, product, but, you know, it was clearly not seen as art. It was just noise to some of these people. If you were fortunate enough to have access to a halfway decent recording studio that was willing to record you, that was about as good as you were gonna get. You know, I. I bring up discord a lot just because of the sort of community sense there. They were so fortunate to have someone like Don Ziantera, you know, to record, you know, a lot of those records. But, you know, a lot of other bands weren't so fortunate. So their first two records were done at this studio called Multi Track Studios in Detroit. Dearborn or Detroit, I can't remember now, but definitely like, you know, Michigan, Detroit era area, by this guy named Rick Canzano, who was not really like a hardcore engineer, but he did a handful of the early Touch and Go releases. So, you know, he did, like a negative approach record. He did a couple decorates and things. He might have done like one of the butthole surfers things maybe, or neck rubs or Something. Not much. Not much. He just. He offered a good rate and he liked Corey Rusk. And Corey was kind of there in the studio with them for those first two records just to kind of, you know, he had a little bit more studio experience than they did. So he was kind of there to sort of help move things along, you know. And then by the time that they started to think about making their third record, which at this point was probably around sometime in 87, maybe 88, Butch Vague, who had started a recording studio in Madison, Wisconsin called Smart Studios, was really starting to make a name for himself as being this guy who's really good at recording, you know, kind of aggressive bands and underground bands, but he can make you sound really good. And at that point, he had done some stuff for Touch and Go. He had done some Killdozer records. He had done, I think, something by the Laughing Hyenas at that point. And they were really impressed with his work and they wanted to work with him. So they. For the remainder of their existence then they were just working with Butch because he just made great records. And, you know, obviously people know that, you know, a few years later, Butch went on to, you know, become pretty prominent with some of the records that he worked on. But, you know, what these guys always told me was just like, yeah, he was always that way. He just, you know, eventually he became a little bit more well known, but he's always been Butch, you know, and. And I've met Butch a handful of times and he's so nice, so down to earth, like a really, really, really rad dude. And, yeah, it's just pretty simple with him. He's just a huge music fan and just loves music and loves making records. And, you know, I don't think he, you know, from what I can tell, he's kind of always been the same dude and he's just been fortunate enough to just keep making records like that. But yeah, by the time they worked with Butch, they had a little bit bigger budget given, you know, Pre Nevermind, Butch's rates were probably a little bit more affordable, but he was able, you know, they were able to spend a little bit more time in the studio and experimenting a little bit more with sounds. And, you know, as their sound evolved towards things are at times maybe a little bit more psychedelic, a little bit more college rock. You know, you're going to want to work with an engineer who was willing to kind of sit with you and help you get that kind of sound you have in your head and get that onto tape. So yeah, you know, like those last couple records they did for Touch and Go, they were definitely like way more hi fi than the first two. You know, they got some demo money from major labels and, you know, those labels weren't really that interested. But then they ended up using some of the stuff from those sessions to, you know, eventually come out as like stuff on 7 inches for touch and Go and stuff like that. So it's, it's so different from now because, you know, now, I mean, anyone can you record themselves at home. But you know, now there's people like, you can play the most abrasive style of music imaginable, and there's probably someone who specializes in that specific style of music, right? If you're, if you're into like really kind of soul crushingly heavy music now, you can go record with Kurt Ballou at God City or something and, and he's gonna understand your reference points and he's not gonna make you feel bad for, you know, being abrasive. But it definitely was not the case in the 80s. And a lot of people, not necessarily to Corinthian, but a lot of people, you know, they got a lot of pushback from some of these engineers who, like, why, like, why are you doing this? Like, why are these guitars so distorted? Why, like, you're not singing in key. Oh, you're not singing in time. Like, they were just, they were approaching this music from a completely wrong perspective and they're trying to sort of make it into something that it's not, you know, so it's a long answer to a short question.

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[Rebecca Buchanan]

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[Sahan Jayasariya]

Are you. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right?

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[Sahan Jayasariya]

Buongiorno, signore. This is how I die.

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[Sahan Jayasariya]

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[Rebecca Buchanan]

But you brought up something too in your answer that I think is important. And I will not go on my rant about major labels at this time.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Oh, well, do they even. Do. Do they even exist anymore?

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Well, at that time, especially in picking and choosing. But it's this representation of this band that always like that was on the cusp, right? Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because they did have some labels coming to, but they were also, and you hear this throughout, like their music wasn't. It wasn't like a one trick pony, right? They were changing, they were evolving. They were changing what they wanted to play and why they wanted, like, I think intentional. Is that the word you use to talk about that. And so I think that sort of, I don't know, can. Can be concerned. I'm going to use the word concerning, but that's not the word I want.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

I know what you mean for a record label, right?

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Like they just don't know what to do.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Yeah, right. I. For our listeners, I just pointed at the screen because she really hit the nail on the head. Record labels jobs is to sell products, right. And you know, when you're selling a product, you want to know exactly what this product is, who you can sell it to, you know, and how you can sell it to them. Right. And De Cruisen were not, you know, you couldn't just put them into one box and that's what made them so great. But it definitely hurt them in some ways because they were like too heavy for the college rock crowd and too college rock for the heavy crowd. So like, what is this, you know. Well, of course now especially in the later 80s, like their third album, Century Days, and like a single they did around the time called Gone Away, it's like, like combining these really dreamy sounds with these kind of heavy sounds. Well, you know, now in 20, 25. Like so many kids love a band like the Deftones, right? And it's. People understand that you can, you know, make the Reese's Peanut Butter cup, right? You can have those two elements. But at that time people really didn't know what to make of that. You know, even now there's so many bands who were like, they come from hardcore and you know, someone slipped them a copy of you prefer an Astronaut? Or someone slipped them a copy of Siamese Dream, or someone slipped them a copy of like going Blank again or something like that. And all of a sudden they're like, I want to do that. But you know, because they're cutting their teeth on this, like I jokingly say, like, like Planet Fitness hardcore, you know, it's not fully dreamy, but it's all of a sudden this different thing, right? And that's cool now. And the people who got those records, got those records. But you know, sometimes because they put out that first record and it was like a quintessential hardcore record booking agents would see that name later on, like, oh, De Croix is coming through town. We're gonna put him on this show with like, like Murphy's Law or something like that. And like, I don't think, you know, kind of super aggro, you know, like east coast hardcore loving audience is going to want to hear like a seven and a half minute psyche stoner jam, you know. But yeah, I think with that in mind, like major labels were interested, but they just didn't know what to do with them, you know, you know, grunge hadn't really happened yet. And you know, major labels, you know, to go back to, you know, your beloved Twin Cities, they, you know, they signed the Replacements and they signed Huskerdoo. And you know, now by today's standards those bands did amazingly well. I think they probably, they didn't. I don't think they got gold records, but they probably sold 150, 200,000 copies of a record, which by today's standards is very, very good. In the 80s, that's like a disappointment. Which is bizarre to me. Like I can't even count to a hundred thousand, right? I mean, I guess I probably could. It would take me a long time, but take a long time to do that. And for what? Just, just to do it. But, but I think, you know, those bands were maybe by someone's standards from a major label, those were kind of seen as like failures right now. The flip side is that, you know, they got to make some really great records. Like I Know, I mean, you haven't really brought them up yet. Are you much of a Replacements fan or. Not really.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

So here's my Replacements. No, like, no offense to any Replacements in general, but I really love the Replacements as a band. I want to punch every single one of them, alive or dead, like, because they're just shitheads.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Like, they, you know, they kind of were like. I mean, I really do like Paul Westerberg's, like, even his. Some of his solo stuff, but I'm like, you guys are real assholes.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

That's. It's well documented. It's. I mean. Yeah, it's well documented. Well, I was just gonna say, like, have you heard that more recent, the Ed Sam mix of Tim that came out a couple years ago?

[Rebecca Buchanan]

No, I haven't.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

It's so good. Like, I always thought Tim kind of sounded like a weird record, kind of like. Like a. Like a. Recorded in a tin can. And this is like. I believe this is like a mix from back then that they like, kind of freshened up a little bit. It was like an alternate mix that never got heard. And it's so great. You know, they, you know, both those bands, they got major label money and they made some really great sounding records and. And it didn't happen for them. But someone I'm surprised I haven't brought up yet shouts out to Dave Perner, we love you.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

I actually just saw Dave Perner in concert when I was in Minneapolis over the holiday. Like over the Christmas New Year operation. So his dad was there. It was great.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Of course. Of course. But no, the band that it did happen for, who signed to a major label and did make it big was. Was REM oh, yes.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yes. And, yeah, but that took them a long time that people don't realize.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Right? Yeah. I mean, Murmur came out in 83. Right. And like, I guess we can call a Document or Green. Green's the first major label one, but Documents kind of the breakthrough. And that's like 87.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

That makes sense because green would have.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Been like 89, 88.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Okay. Was it.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

I think green was 88, because then out of time was 91.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Oh, okay. That's the Losing My Religion one, right?

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Yeah, yeah, Yeah. I love R.E.M. they're so good. But. But, yeah, I think. But it took a lot of time. And what, you know, what they did, which is also what de Croitson did, which is what a lot of, you know, independent underground bands at the time did, is they just toured. And they toured a lot because, you know, you had College radio. You had fanzines and you had live gigs. You know, the thought of getting onto MTV was kind of unheard of, you know, I mean, you know, the year that Murmur came out, that's. I mean, that's like Duran Duran, Rio, Time and Thriller and, you know, the big, big pop records of the era, at least at that time. You know, the idea of a, you know, like Radio Free Europe being on MTV at that time, it just, it wouldn't have made sense. Right, but all these bands, they, you know, they, they just, they put their time in and they just toured and toured and toured and that's how they got, you know, their name out there. And you know, I can't remember what we were talking about now, but.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Well, just them not getting like the major labels, right?

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Oh, right, right, right. Yeah. So. So yeah, I just think like, you know, they would play with the tons of different bands on tour and you know, the audiences that got them were when they would play with, you know, who, Skirdoo or Sonic Youth or Dinosaur or Laughing Hyenas or, you know, Kindred Spirits, like that. But, you know, if they're playing with like a straight ahead hardcore band, they're probably not gonna get it. Especially with like the later records or, you know, if they're playing with a band that's just full on jangle, they're probably not gonna get it either. It's like they needed to find like their, their crowd and they had their crowd. But, but they were still always kind of just like a unique band, you know, because I mean, they don't sound like Sonic Youth. They work well on a bill with Sonic Youth and Dinosaur, but you know, those three bands don't sound anything like each other besides the fact that they all have guitars. Right. And that's kind of it. So, you know, yeah, there's some major label offers, but they never really came to fruition. And most of these people would just say, like, we just don't know what to do with you. And you know, even in like, like, like some of the European press, that was very, very complimentary. You know, like the Enemy and Melody Makers of, Of the World, they really dug those later records, but, you know, they were kind of struggling with how to describe it. So you would hear them say stuff like REM Meets Anthrax and stuff like that, which is just. That is not a sandwich I would want to eat. That's, that's terrible. It's. I mean, and I, and I love REM and, and, and you know, Anthrax has Some bangers, too. But, like, it's just. It's just not accurate if someone described a band like that. To me, I just think this is not something I want to listen to. But, you know, the people just didn't have the words for it, you know, and even in, like, you know, the early 90s, like, people, like, prior to, like, the word, like, grunge, they would just. They would call it, like, sometimes they would call it, like, alternative metal almost, because the word alternative was kind of out there, but no one knew what any of these things meant. And even the term grunge, people use that to describe Nirvana and Stunt Stable Pilots and Smashing Pumpkins and Pearl Jam and Tad and Mudhead Soundgarden. And none of these bands sound the same, so what was it matter? But I just think, yeah, they're sort of eclecticism. There's eclectic tastes. And which their eclectic tastes, I think, directly contributed to them having a kind of eclectic sound. Focused, no doubt focused, but eclectic. I think that definitely maybe got in the way of people kind of knowing what to make of it. But they did write a song that came out in 8990 called gone away as a standalone single. And that, to me, is kind of like. Like the best single songwriting achievement of their whole catalog. It kind of encapsulates everything they did well, minus the speed of the first album, but it's. It has this sort of melancholy quality that they were moving towards at that point. And it was melodic, but it had some moments of kind of vocal aggression and the guitars are kind of dreamy. And it's just the. It just really clicked really hard on that song, and. And I'm glad that it exists. And I mean, you. I mean, that's a perfect example of, like, had they not done that with Butch Bag, I don't know what it would have sounded like, because Butch really shines on that track along with, you know, the rest of the band members and, you know, their. And their songwriting abilities. But, you know, that I feel like if that song maybe was on their last album, you know, that last record came out in 91, and I think people were starting to get interested in stuff that was part of the, you know, larger alternative universe. I think probably Jane's Addiction was getting kind of big at that point. Right. And, you know, that would have been the first.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Was that Perry Farrell's actual lollapalooza, I think, 91.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

91. Right. So that makes sense with, like, them and, like, Nine Inch Nails and whoever else. Right. Ice. I think Ice T was on.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

So, yeah, and I think that was like a time when people were starting to listen. I mean, like, you know, Sonic east goo record comes out in 90. You know, for as well as a record like that can do. You know, that did pretty well, you know, what 1990. You have like a record like Violator, you know, that was huge. You know, the year before that was Disintegration. That's a huge record. So, you know, I think the time would have been right for that if it got the kind of push that it deserved. But you know, to me that. I think Gone Away by De Courson is like kind of a lost gem of that time period. But yeah, I think another reason why they didn't want to sign with a major is because no major wanted to give them what they wanted. You know, major labels are all about, you know, well, we want. We don't hear any hits or we're going to make you work with, you know, whatever producer. And I think had they found a label that wanted to give them, you know, everything that they wanted, then maybe, maybe then they would have done it, you know, after the fact, after they had split, they. There is a kind of tentative offer presented to them by Atlantic Records, their. Their friend and someone who'd written about music, written about them for a long time in the 80s. This guy, Mike Gitter had recently started doing A R Atlantic. He signed Jawbox and he signed a couple other bands and he. One of the first things he wanted to do was assign to Croitzen and they had, they had split and they're like, yeah, we. They were not really interested. But you know, it's. Yeah, it's just an interesting time because I think they were. They were like, they were almost there, right? And, and bands that were in their orbit were, you know, getting to that point. Right. You know, eventually, you know, I think it's hilarious that a major label signed the Jesus Lizard because there was no way that band was going to sell records on that level. Right? But they did, you know, and, and bands that were influenced by them, like, like for example, Drive, like J who and Rocker from the Crib, they signed a major labels, right? And you know, I mean, yeah, like what major label would think that like a band like Drag, like J was going to sell records? And I think they knew that. You know, that's another thing too is I know a lot of major labels at the time were interested in signing bands as band magnets, right? So, you know, I don't think Elektra thought that Stereo Lab was going to do multi platinum numbers. But they probably thought, well, if we have this cool band, then maybe other cool bands will see that they're with us and they'll want to come to us. Right? I think maybe Sonic Youth is partially signed for that reason. And, you know, I think probably one of the reasons why they signed Drive Like J, who was because of that, to maybe attract other bands. Like, yeah, there's no way Royal Trucks was going to sell records, right? But so, I don't know, maybe you're.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Seeing all these bands whose records are upstairs in my daughter's room, right? Then I, you know, you buy them and then you forget. I'm like, oh, that's right. Jesus Lizard I. And growing up, I mean, being in the Twin Cities, I probably saw most of them too, coming through First Avenue. But yes, but it is. It's like, you look at it and like, why did I think this was, like, worth. Yeah. Holding on to?

[Sahan Jayasariya]

I mean, I think all those things are great and that's why you held onto them. I'm speaking on your behalf. Those are great records. But. But, yeah, I just think it was an interesting time because, like, you know, maybe I'm being a little bit presumptuous here, but I think the other thing too is that, that, you know, people talk about the success of. Of Nevermind and how major labels thought as being blindsiding. Now, again, I'm younger. To me, it's so obvious that that record was going to do well because those are like really perfectly crafted pop songs. But, you know, I think when you're operating, you know, when you're at a major label and it's, you know, 1990 and, you know, your idea of a hit song is and I Love Jane Child, right? But, like, your idea is like, you don't want to fall in love, or your idea of a hit song is Milli Vanilli or like Nelson or like, whatever these things that are, like, popping at the time, and then you see a band that looks and sounds like Nirvana and then that becomes popular. You know, if you're not really familiar with where they're coming from, it is probably going to be kind of blind signing to you. And then you just scramble to sign anybody, right? And then all of a sudden that's how you see Sam, I am getting a deal. And that's how you see Jawbox getting a deal, or shudder to think, getting a deal or whatever. And I think maybe if they either happened just a little bit later or if they stuck around a little bit longer, I think they probably could have gotten that, and I think they deserved it. I mean, they were so influential on so many, you know, bands that went on to be, you know, more commercially successful. But, you know, the nice thing is, you know, they say, like, you know, we never did anything we didn't want to do. You know, we never released songs we didn't want to release. We never. No one ever told us how to make our records. Like, everything we did, like, we did exactly what we wanted to do. So, you know, they don't leave behind any kind of regretful moments in terms of, like, the music they released.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

And they were together for a long time. Right. Like, as bands go, like 11 years.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Yeah. Like 81 to 92. That's a long time.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Yeah, it's a good chunk of time. You end the book with this, like, their kind of impact or influence on. So can you talk. Yeah, maybe. Because we're talking a lot, so maybe we'll. I have that one more question, but, like, maybe talk a little bit about, like, how de Crutzen, like, impacted. Like, you kind of alluded to it, mentioned it, but like, yeah, what is their place? What do you want? Or what do you think? And what do other people think? That legacy is for sure.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

I think really early on, once I started doing research for this book, I realized, and I was like, oh, of course I love this band because they're a band's band and I love bands. Bands like, I think of like, Big Star as being like the ultimate bands band, right? And if you've heard those Big Star records like you like, those are great, right? And I think I'm just a big fan of, like, not just because those bands are obscure, but just for whatever reason, my taste, it always moves towards, like, stuff like that. And you know, especially when you're younger too, like, the bands you love, if. If you really like them, you really like you, you take them seriously, and if they say something's good, you're probably going to listen to them. Right? I mean, I certainly did that with Nirvana. So many of my favorite bands came to me because of, you know, hearing Kurt Cobain talk about them or he was wearing the T shirts or whatever. Right. So that kind of the, the. The influence conversation has always fascinated me. And when I started talking to some of these people, I kind of thought, well, it'd be cool to just have this be its own chapter where the band members aren't in here at all, you know, so they're not in the room when people are telling them how Great. They are, essentially. So I just kind of, you know, made note of, you know, the conversations I was having with these people. And it's ranging from, like, John Reese from Drive Lake Jehu to John Wurster from Superchunk, Nico Case, Greg Anderson from, you know, Engine, Kid and Son, Justin Trosper from Unwound, Like, Steve Albini's in there, Kim from Soundgarden. Just tons of people. And, you know, I realized that, like, all these people love this band. You know, they might love different eras of this band, but in some cases, they all agree on certain things. You know, a thing that you hear a lot in the book is people love the way that they dressed, and they loved, like, the look and the hairstyles and stuff like that. And I just, like, wanted to put all that in there because, you know, they felt the need to say this. You know, I didn't really. I mean, I asked questions, but I would just let these people just kind of say whatever they wanted to. And, you know, I just think it's important. I think the entire point of this book was for me to, you know, illustrate to the readers that they were significant and that they were influential and that they made a valuable contribution to, you know, underground music and alternative music for the last 40 years. Right? So I think all these things, you know, prior to this chapter and then this chapter just kind of make a case for them. And I think hearing these people who, you know, whether they went on to, you know, higher commercial success or went on to just make really great records, I think hearing people like that say that this band is important, it makes a case for them. Right? So. And I just like the way it turned out because it's just, you know, for me, you know, every. Everyone from the band is still, you know, they're still here, thankfully. And I just thought it'd be a cool thing for them to, you know, have a whole chapter of people telling them how much I love them, you know, so. So, yeah, it's. I think. And plus, too, like, the band didn't break up in this, like, really kind of, like, behind the music kind of way. They. It just kind of. They ran out of steam. You know, they were just kind of getting tired of not really growing in the direction they wanted to. They're creatively growing, but, you know, they weren't really getting to the next level. They were. Audiences were kind of staying the same or maybe in some cases, getting smaller. And, you know, when they started the band, they were in their late teens, like 18, 19, and by the time they split, they were, you know, kissing. 30. Maybe they were 30. You know, you do a lot of growing and that, you know, that, that, that range of age. And I think they're just like, they just decided to, you know, stop the bands. And that's not really like. I mean, I could have ended the book there, but it's just like, it almost felt like anticlimactic to do that. So I just felt like, well, instead of giving people, like, the big resolve of just like, you know, like, here's what happened or whatever, I was just like, well, it might be cool to just do have the ending. Just be like, talk about, like, what their legacy is, you know, and, and then talk about why they're, they're significant and still significant to people to this day. There's, there's still, you know, people younger, you know, musicians especially, especially in the punk hardcore world that, you know, they point to those records as being super influential. And, you know, there's so many kids who are just trying to, you know, play that fast and play that tight, you know, So I just wanted to give them their flowers, you know, as, as cliche as that sounds, it's just what I wanted to do. And I, I, I'd like to think that I did that.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

So, So, I mean, the book took you a while, but now you've got, it's out, right? So I'm gonna give you. My last question is always self promotion. Like, either what's going on with the book or even, you know, anything you're working on that you want people to know about, but. Yeah, what do you want people to know?

[Sahan Jayasariya]

I'm available to talk to you about this book anytime you want me to talk to you. You know, 10 years worth of work putting that much time into something.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

It'S.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

I can't, it's hard to even wrap my head around. But I just want as many people to know about this band as possible. So, like, I'm super available to do interviews, and that's kind of my focus right now, is just promoting this thing and getting it out there and really just kind of either if you were around at that time and you remember the band to remind you of them and maybe have you go back and revisit the catalog or if you have no idea who they are, I think the time is right now for people to appreciate a band like this that is not just heavy and not just dreamy and kind of, of straddles these, these like, two kinds of things. So, you know, I just, I just want people to listen to this band because I think they're great, you know, and I will talk at length about them to anyone who wants to, as I just did today with you. But, yeah, you know, I'm. I'm starting to think about maybe doing, you know, another book at some point in time. But I feel like my focus right now is, you know, really giving, giving this book the push it deserves and, you know, hoping that, you know, the, these records get the. The attention that I think that they deserve. So.

[Rebecca Buchanan]

Well, Sahan, it's been so good talking to you again. Sahan Jayasariya, who is the author of don't say Please the oral history of D Kreutzen. Thank you so much for being on New Books Network.

[Sahan Jayasariya]

Thank you so much, Rebecca. You have a good week.

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