Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Samuel Holley-Kline, In the Shadow of El Tajín: The Political Economy of Archaeology in Modern Mexico (U Nebraska Press, 2025)
Date: February 3, 2026
Host: Rachel Newman
Guest: Samuel Holley-Kline

Overview

This episode features a conversation between host Rachel Newman and author Samuel Holley-Kline on his book In the Shadow of El Tajín, which explores how archaeology, economic change, indigenous experience, and labor intersect at the archaeological site of El Tajín in Veracruz, Mexico. Holley-Kline investigates the site’s recent history, examining how it operates within broader networks of production and labor, and how the lives and livelihoods of local Totonac communities are shaped by both the archaeological site and wider regional economies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins of the Project

• Personal Motivation and Early Experience
  • Holley-Kline recounts his first visit to El Tajín as an undergraduate on a study-abroad program. A chance observation of an offering at the Pyramid of the Niches by a local led him to rethink who defines meaning at archaeological sites.
  • “It seemed clear that this person had a very different idea of what was going on at the site than I did.” (04:11, Samuel Holley-Kline)
  • This encounter sparked questions about Indigenous perspectives in archaeology, eventually shaping his Fulbright proposal and subsequent research trajectory.
• Research Gap
  • Noted a lack of ethnographic study connecting contemporary Totonac communities' perspectives with those of archaeologists.
  • Aims to provide a platform for these intersecting views.

Political Economy of Archaeology—Main Framework

• Defining Political Economy in Archaeology
  • Holley-Kline highlights a later-stage evolution in his conceptualization:
    • Studying archaeology in relation to “regional patterns of production, exchange and distribution.”
    • Archaeology as itself a means of resource redistribution—a local way of making a living.
  • “Archaeological sites have recent histories, people use them in different ways and the effects have varied based on who's using the site and how.” (08:36, Samuel Holley-Kline)
• Effects on Local Community
  • Emphasizes that different groups have been differently advantaged or harmed by shifts in how El Tajín is administered and utilized.

Land, Property, and Archaeology Interconnections

• Land Tenure Narratives
  • El Tajín’s site boundaries and the conception of it as a “site” were influenced by 19th-century land tenure changes.
  • Archaeological monuments are state property, while the land itself can be private or communal—leading to complex dynamics.
  • “We find both archaeologists and landowners...thinking in terms of private property and making claims to the site and the lands based on these ideas of property.” (12:55, Samuel Holley-Kline)
  • Legal ambiguity has often been resolved by the state’s assertion of authority, sometimes at local expense.
• Classroom Insight
  • Holley-Kline grounds otherwise abstract questions about property and land in tangible conflicts over who can farm on or control archaeological land.

Oil and Archaeology: “Twinned” Histories

• Subsoil as Shared Domain
  • Papantla is both a key oil-producing region and the location of El Tajín. Oil drilling and archaeological excavation are linked through their focus on the subsoil, logistics, and infrastructure (e.g., road-building).
  • “When people are digging for oil, they find archaeological remains. When people are digging around the archaeological site, they find the potential for oil production.” (15:28, Samuel Holley-Kline)
  • Notably, an oil well was drilled within 100 meters of the Pyramid of the Niches in the 1930s.
• Unexpected Collaborations and Consequences
  • Despite nationalist vs. foreign distinctions at the ideological level, archaeologists and oil companies often cooperated locally.
  • "It's also a story of environmental degradation and loss of local livelihoods." (18:35, Samuel Holley-Kline)

Vanilla: Surprising Linkages to Local Livelihoods and Violence

• Vanilla’s History in Papantla
  • At interviewees’ urging, Holley-Kline investigated vanilla’s role; he expected identity and heritage connections but instead found stories of danger, violence, and exploitation.
  • Market structures exposed Totonac cultivators to risk while intermediaries and curers (often outsiders) reaped most rewards.
  • “People were really...talking about the risk that cultivating vanilla could bring and some of the exploitative relationships that underlied the development of the vanilla industry.” (21:44, Samuel Holley-Kline)
• Site and Cash Crop Intersections
  • Vanilla wealth and violence had diffuse but important consequences for site management and local elite involvement (e.g., the first federally-appointed site guard was a major vanilla cultivator).

Work, Labor, and Archaeological Employment

• Economy Prior to Government Employment

  • Through the 1940s, the economy was mainly based on private subsistence agriculture (not ejidos), vanilla, and sugarcane. This pattern shifted as agriculture declined mid-20th century.
  • “The development of new transportation infrastructure...gets cattle ranchers coming in...you get the decline of subsistence agriculture as a local livelihood.” (26:34, Samuel Holley-Kline)

• Custodios: The Site’s Federal Workforce

  • Role & History
    • Custodios are federal employees (akin to park rangers or site guards), with civil service status and unionization since the 1930s.
    • Positions are stable, sometimes hereditary, conferring significant benefits such as steady income and educational opportunity for descendants.
  • Broader Impact
    • “For the folks who have custodian jobs, many of them are very well aware of the jobs benefits and they've taken advantage of them.” (30:08, Samuel Holley-Kline)
    • However, these jobs are few and not universally accessible.
  • Recognition and Value
    • Contrary to expectations, custodios did not focus on public recognition for their archaeological contributions, but valued job security and benefits:
      • “Rather than focusing on questions of knowledge production...it's the wage, it's the benefits, it's the possibilities of making a life in challenging circumstances that are the important thing.” (33:18, Samuel Holley-Kline)

• Administrativos: Precarious “Experts”

  • Background
    • Administrativos (administrators, tech experts, professionals) began appearing on-site only in recent decades due to neoliberal, technocratic reforms.
    • Tend to be on precarious, non-union contracts; more mobile and vulnerable, but also flexible.
  • Changing Site Management
    • “Administrativos...have always had to work in the conditions of neoliberalism...As a result...they also have a kind of flexibility that...enables and in some cases requires them to seek other opportunities...” (37:39, Samuel Holley-Kline)

Rethinking Tourism and Archaeological Sites

• Advice to Visitors
  • Holley-Kline urges visitors to archaeological sites to see not just the ancient history, but the layers of more recent labor and infrastructure.
  • “Think about the...buildings, the landscapes...as the product not just of ancient indigenous peoples...but also more contemporary forms of labor and expertise.” (39:54, Samuel Holley-Kline)
  • Encourages asking about who maintains the site, who reconstructed it, who benefits, and what work is required to keep it running.

Future Directions

• New Research
  • Now working on a broader labor history of Mexican archaeology, drawing on government personnel files and expanding focus to include transnational labor networks, migrant identities, and the impact of foreign companies.
  • “The project I'm currently working on is now tentatively titled The Work of Mesoamerican Science: Politics and labor in 20th-century middle America.” (43:22, Samuel Holley-Kline)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Initial Curiosity:
  • “Seeing this offering, I thought, oh, this seems interesting. I wonder what he thinks of this place and the site.” (03:12)
• On Conceptual Reframing:
  • “Archaeology as a means of resource redistribution, one that we can study in the same ways we might use to study the growth and decline of industries, changes in land tenure, or other common topics...” (07:48)
• On the Overlooked Labor of Archaeological Sites:
  • “Who was the first custodio at this site? How did they get there?...Who's responsible for picking up the trash? How did water get to the site?...It's the kind of infrastructure that...is kind of invisible to us as tourists.” (40:16-41:02)
• On the Value of Site Jobs:
  • “Rather than focusing on questions of knowledge production...it's the wage, it's the benefits, it's the possibilities of making a life in challenging circumstances that are the important thing.” (33:18)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Holley-Kline’s Introduction and Path to El Tajín: 01:45–05:45
• Political Economy Framework and Its Emergence: 06:11–09:29
• Land, Archaeology, and Property Rights: 09:56–14:34
• Oil and Archaeology’s “Twinned” Histories: 14:54–19:00
• Vanilla, Violence, and Local Elite Connections: 20:00–25:02
• Local Livelihoods and the Rise of Site Jobs: 25:36–27:13
• Custodios – Role, Impact, and Value: 28:02–34:00
• Administrativos and Precarious Work: 34:34–39:23
• Advice for Archaeological Site Visitors: 39:47–41:40
• Future Research and Broader Context: 41:48–44:08

Closing Thoughts

This episode explores In the Shadow of El Tajín as an innovative study at the intersection of archaeology, labor, economy, and indigenous experience. Holley-Kline argues for a grounded, historical understanding of how modern livelihoods and state interventions shape, and are shaped by, archaeological sites—not mere relics, but entangled with the lives and struggles of contemporary communities. The conversation encourages listeners to see archaeological sites through new eyes, attentive to labor, infrastructure, and the politics of heritage.