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Sharon Sliwinski, "An Alphabet for Dreamers: How to See the World with Eyes Closed" (MIT Press, 2025)
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- [00:00]
Marshall Poe
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Poe. I'm the editor of the New Books Network, and if you're listening to the New Books Network, I imagine you like to read and I'm wondering if you have a goal to read more this year. How about a goal to read more of what you love and less of what you don't? The Proofread podcast is here to help. Hosted by Casey and Tyler, two English professors and avid readers with busy lives, Proofread helps you decide what books are worth spending your precious time on and what books aren't. They feature 15 minute episodes that give you everything you need to know about a book to decide if you should read it or skip it. You'll get a brief synopsis, fun and witty commentary, no spoilers and no sponsored reviews. It's just what Casey and Tyler think. Life's too short to read a bad book. So subscribe to the Proofread podcast today. And by the way, there's a new season coming. Thanks very much, Limu Emu and Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [01:08]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [01:12]
Marshall Poe
Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [01:16]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.
- [01:22]
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- [01:52]
Marshall Poe
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:57]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
Hello and welcome to another episode on the New Books Network. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. Miranda Melcher, and I'm very pleased today to be speaking with Dr. Sharon Slavinsky about her book titled An Alphabet for How to See the World with Eyes closed, published by MIT Press in 2025. Now, this book is doing a whole bunch of interesting things at once. Yes, we're going to be talking about dreaming. We're going to be talking about kind of what it is, why it's important, but we're also going to be talking about it through quite an interesting and sort of innovative structure of the book right the Alphabet part of the title is not a joke. We're going to talk about that and we're also going to talk about people's experiences of dreaming. People that are with us today, who are famous and who are not. People who we've had in the past in the historical record, talk about dreaming.
- [02:50]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
So.
- [02:50]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
So we're going to touch on, I think, a lot of different places and times and ideas that are wonderfully, intriguingly strung together by this idea of dreams and the Alphabet. So we clearly have a lot to discuss. Sharon, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
- [03:06]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Oh, thank you, Dr. Meltzer. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [03:08]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
Could you please start us off by introducing yourself a little bit and tell us why you decided to write this book? What sorts of interventions are you making with this project?
- [03:18]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
My name is Sharon and I'm a professor at Western University, which is in Canada. I'm a born and raised Canadian. I work in a department of Information and Media Studies, which is a kind of a broad area. And my previous work was about visual images and human rights. And I became very interested in dreams. I mean, they are images, but they're not a kind of image that you get taught about in a visual studies or an art history program. But I realized that they are quite significant and we should be talking about these images. And partly because once upon a time, dreams were an extraordinarily important source of knowledge. They were important both for the individual and for the social good in the ancient world. In the ancient Western world, dreams were regularly consulted. If you were sick, you'd go to the Asclepii. You need hope for a dream. If a leader needed guidance about a problem, they would. They would attend to their dreams and so on. And of course, that's still true in some parts of the world. In Islamic traditions and many indigenous traditions, the knowledge that's carried in dreams is still considered important. And of course, we think about them through Sigmund Freud for individual psychological growth. But we've really lost the sense that dreams are an important source of knowledge and in particular for the social good. And, and that's what I'm really interested in here.
- [04:43]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
That's definitely an interesting sort of foundation, I think, for our discussion and definitely makes it worth asking the kind of obvious question, right? Anything that one writes a book about has an importance to it. Otherwise, like, why bother thinking about something in that much depth? Can you tell us more about why dreams are important and why it's important to ask questions like, what does a dream mean?
- [05:07]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
First of all our struggles, whether they be our personal conflicts or our political battles, they don't cease just because we're asleep. You know, they go on, and they go on inside of us as well. And we're living through a time of profound upheaval. I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that. And I wanted to show and write a book that would show people about our nighttime visions and how they provide another kind of crucial view of reality which is somewhat counterintuitive to how we think about dreams. But that's. That's what I think. And the question about why people. Why it's important to ask what dreams mean, that whenever I find myself talking to a stranger or even a friend, you know, this question comes up. You know, people say, oh, I had this crazy dream, and what does it mean? And I. I think that's an important question because it means that people are approaching meaning from a kind of questioning state of mind. And, you know, there's a fancy philosophical discussion about this in the realm of epistemology, but really it just means that you're approaching something you don't know with a sense of curiosity. And I. I know that sounds a bit simple, but we know how people become defensive so quickly. I mean, I may be biased because I'm working in a university and it's a. A knowledge institution. But, you know, human beings become defensive about things so, so quickly, and we have all kinds of tactics for dismissing things that we don't want to engage with. So curiosity is a really rare kind of state of mind, you know, and when someone says, what does it mean when they're dreaming? Genuinely, it's a very special and an important thing in my mind, you know, and dreams naturally put us in that state of mind. There's a kind of pedagogy to them. You know, when you wake up from a really surreal dream and you're like, what the heck? Where did that come from? You know, that's a crucial state of mind that we need to cultivate. And I say that because of what I mentioned before. You know, I worked in images and human rights, and that's a field of images that are terrible. You know, people committing atrocious acts of violence and the kind of documentation that we have for human rights violations. You know, think of that white cop, Derek Chauvin, who knelt on the neck of George Floyd. You know, he couldn't grasp what he was doing because his senses were closed. You know, he was so far from the state of mind that asks with some curiosity, like Whoa. What's going on here? What am I seeing? So dreams are a very important teacher, a kind of teacher we've forgotten in this respect, that teach us to be curious about the world, to lower our defenses, to orient us differently to the world.
- [07:46]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
Is that pedagogical aspect of dreams, then, one of the reasons why you decided to structure the book as an Alphabet?
- [07:53]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Yes, absolutely. I mean, partly. I love Alphabet books, and I love my kids books, my children's pictures books. They're really important. They teach us to read as children. But yes, you're right. The structure was part of the strategy to kind of entice readers, to encourage them to lower their defenses and approach the topic of dreaming with a kind of childlike point of view. I mean, it's also about announcing that this is not an encyclopedia, it's not a big academic tome. I've written those. No one reads them, or very, very few people read them. But this one is just a primer. You don't have to worry about embarking on a really difficult read. It's just an Alphabet book. And there's also a bit of kind of background pedagogy there about the relationship between words and images. Alphabet books use images to teach people to read. And dreams also do this in a way. Dreams are often visual experiences. Not only sometimes, of course, they involve sounds and feelings and sensations, but often, primarily, they're visual experiences. And then we share a dream and we translate that visual experience into words. And that act of translation of something that we've seen or an experience that we've had into words is kind of where we experiment with meaning. And it's a place where we can change the moorings of our being, I think, is how I phrase it in the book, which is just to say that, you know, you can change your relationship to things you've undergone simply by putting them into words. You know, think about a kid, for example, who has a nightmare. If you're a parent, you know, that getting the kid to tell you what they dreamt is a really good way to have them shift out of being terrified, because they're now describing an experience, and they're not just in the midst of it. You know, they've got a little bit of room from the experience. And that's just true in general. I talk about that in the book as our kind of ground zero for world making. It's a really important skill, and I wanted to have that kind of background in the book as well.
- [09:52]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
Yeah, it's definitely worth noting that this, as you said, this book is not a massive encyclopedia that you could brain someone with. It's very readable. You can almost hold it in one hand. There's a lot to get to grips with, but thankfully not in 800 pages. So definitely worth emphasizing that aspect of it. And of course, aside from looking at lots of different historical traditions and individual figures in history, you also undertook. Took this as part of what sounds like a pretty recent project, the COVID Dream Project. Can you tell us about this work you've done with the Museum of London and kind of how it came about and some of the things you learned from it?
- [10:30]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Yeah, for sure. That was. That was just a kind of a stroke of luck, you know, there was a very dynamic curator from the. I think they've changed their name now. Now it's London Museum. But she called me up one day during COVID It was early days in Covid. It was like, you know, the first year of COVID and she was doing a collection project in the midst of this pandemic, and she was collecting different forms of ephemera from the pandemic, and she wanted to collect dreams. And, you know, she found my work and a project I have called the Museum of Dreams. And she said, hey, this is what I'm thinking, you know, and we had a long conversation about it. And I don't know exactly how, but next thing you know, I was leading the team collecting Covid dreams. So I called up some of my colleagues at Birkbeck because I thought it was important for Londoners to speak with Londoners about their Covid dreams. Not just as Canadian, but I don't typically work as a clinician. I don't typically work with humans. In my research, this wasn't the first time, but I was so struck by the generosity and the warmth and the intimacy, you know, all these strangers, huge numbers of strangers. We had it. Were overwhelmed by people that wanted to speak to us frankly, and they were sharing these very intimate experiences. And it was just. It was just incredible. I was completely transformed by these conversations. And I realized. Well, we realized as a research team kind of early on that two things. One was that they were very special forms of conversation that, you know, this. You don't very often have two people who don't know each other talk about something over which no one is really, you know, a master of. You know, there's no. There's no way to sort of be a master of what a dream is about. It's just something that two people have to talk about with some curiosity. And there's no vying for control, there's no, you know, expert. It's just, it's very rare that you actually have those kinds of conversations. And it, and for me, it became a kind of model for how we could talk to each other without fighting over our position about a topic. It's a very different kind of two people having a conversation. So that was really important as a model of communication. And then the second thing was that we learned really quickly that people were organically using their dream life as a kind of sense making tool for the pandemic. That there were so many unprecedented experiences during that time. Lockdowns, new social protocols, and so on and so on. You know, normally our life is so routinized, but here we had to deal with a transformed world so quickly. And it was, you know, huge psychological demands. And people were really using their dreams to make sense of the world and to make sense of these changes. And that became a kind of principle for the book, like, oh, this is a way to enter into this conversation, you know, to use what people taught us in that project.
- [13:28]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
And so are there things that readers of this book then can take away or learn from the book about maybe their own dreams or dreams of people around them?
- [13:37]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I hope, as I said earlier, that people will come away with a kind of newfound sense of curiosity about their dreams and about the dreams of those people that are dear to them or even strangers, you know, And I've already heard the book has not been out long, but I've already heard from a few readers on this or people reaching out to me who maybe know me and who don't, who, who've. Who who seem to be wanting to be in communication with me about. In exactly the way that I was with, with the London Dreamers. You know, it's already an intimate conversation. They're already telling me about how the book helped them think about something that was going on in their life. I'll give you an example. One of my colleagues, who I don't actually know very well, but she works at the University of Toronto, which is. I live in Toronto and she's at a different university. I've met her a few times. She's a lovely woman, a professor in English and we happen to live in the same neighborhood. So she stopped me on the street and she said, oh my goodness, Sharon, I read your book. I read it the other day and I said, oh, that's so nice, you know, thank you for telling me that. And how was it? And she said, it Was, she said it transformed her life because she had a kid who was going through what she described as some gender transformation, but they were struggling. You know, it was a source of struggle in the household. And she said that she read the book and she started asking her kids every morning, you know, oh, what did you dream about? Like, just. It was a question to sort of start the day and to bind them together differently, to talk to each other in the household a bit differently. And the kid who was struggling came down one morning and said, mom, I had this dream. I had this dream I was going to school. And in the schoolyard there was a new sign. And the sign said, here's how you hold your hands like a boy. And the kid was completely relieved. There was a sense of just peace that came over the household because now there was some direction, you know, now, now there was this, first of all, this very explicit instruction in the dream that was delivered. But it also helped change how people were talking about it in the household. And, and my colleague was so. I could just see it in her face, you know, she was, she was transformed and she was. There was a sense of joy. She said to me, I'm so looking forward to this transformation. And I thought, oh, I did my work. You know, like the book taught her how to attune to herself and to her kid. And I, you know, like, I couldn't think of a better, better evidence.
- [16:03]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
Yeah, no, that's definitely a very powerful example.
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- [16:36]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
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- [16:39]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
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Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
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- [17:05]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
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- [17:13]
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- [17:30]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
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- [17:36]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
Thinking then about the process of putting all of this together. Obviously, as we've said, right, it's an Alphabet. Like literally, there's A, B, C. Right. Those are the sections of the book. But I have to ask, given the way it's structured, it's very linear in that sense. But did you write it that way or did you kind of start with, oh, I've got a great idea for K? And you went there first. Like, how did it come together behind the scenes?
- [18:00]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Yeah, it was trickier than I thought it was going to be. You know, I mean, I had some. I had in my pocket, you know, lots of examples of dreams from history that I knew I wanted. In the book, for example, there's a chapter called D is for Defense and it's about Nelson Mandela and one of Mandela's recurring nightmares that he had while he was imprisoned in Robben Island. And I knew that this was an important dream because it was an important dream for me. It changed how I thought about dreaming as a kind of a form of defense, a form of civil defense and psychological defense that helped him survive the political violence that he underwent. And I knew, for example, that that one had to be in there. I didn't know it was going to be, you know, in the D is for Defense chapter. But I sort of had all the big dreams and the particular Londoners that I wanted to include. There's a doctor who was working on the COVID wards. There was a woman who had this incredible dream that brought her back to her childhood. You know, there were sort of all the dreams I had that had them all on cue cards and then I had to figure out how to arrange them into an Alphabet. And part of that was just about listening to the dreams and to sort of finding the word. So, you know, Dr. Rao, whose dream is in the book, she had this dream about examining a patient. And she looked into the patient's ears. Instead of seeing the inside of an ear, she saw what she describes as a healthy cervix. So there was a cervix inside the patient's ear. And she loved this dream. And she kept talking about using an otoscope, which is the tool that doctors use to look in patients ears. And so, you know, you just listen and you listen for the words that People use about their dream life and those. It's almost like they become. They stand out, you know, and you realize that the. The part object, I guess, that you could say, technically speaking, becomes sort of emblematic of the dream as a whole. So then it made sense. Okay, well, you know, the chapter about Dr. Rao became O is for autoscope. So that's kind of how. It took a while, but they all kind of fell into place.
- [20:03]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
Was there one that was particularly tricky? Obviously, when we talk about alphabets like Scrabble in those sorts of contexts, you know, you never want to get X. Right. Were there letters that were particularly challenging to figure out how to work with?
- [20:17]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Yeah, X was a hard one, and I ended up talking. That one became X's for Xanax. There's not a lot of X words out there, but yeah, I mean, sometimes it became sort of filling out the Alphabet at the end of the process, for sure. But then there's other ones that were conceptually very difficult. And that one, for example, H is for homework, which the title is a bit of a. You know, it's not actually. Well, it is about homework, but it's really about a very serious. About the independence of Madagascar and the kind of fights that happened there and the particular forms of colonial violence that were really insidious. And they come in the form of homework assignments by French colonial agents. And the homework assignment was to Madagascar kids who were living through this time of revolution. And the form of colonial violence happened over the course of the homework assignment that was happening in the country. And so that's a tricky story to tell in about five pages. Each of the chapters are really short. And so it becomes a way to also entice people into difficult histories in the form of a, you know, a children's primer. And so that you can. You can start to be suspicious of homework assignments. You know, if you're attentive in this kind of way, with this kind of curiosity.
- [21:38]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
There's lots clearly of kind of key attention to detail throughout the book, I think in the way that it's all sort of neatly put together. Like, I knew there would have been letters that were hard for you to fill out, but I didn't know which ones. Like, X was obviously like a standard guess, but kind of reading the finished product, it's like, oh, well, that, of course, makes lots of sense that that would be there. Right. Even the ones that kind of seem less obvious when you initially look at the title. And obviously you've explained a few of them already to us.
- [22:05]
Marshall Poe
Right.
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Dr. Miranda Melcher
D is for defence, that kind of thing. But, like, H is for homework, but it's about Madagascan independence. Right. That was a cool combination. Were there any other sort of ones that you were particularly pleased about in terms of the relationship between the letter you chose and the story that went with it?
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Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, the book sort of. I'm trying not to be too didactic about it, but the book unfolds with the big questions. So A is for attention. It actually, for a long time, was going to be called A is for attunement, because the question of attuning to oneself and to another is kind of at the heart of the book. But I realized attention is the better. The better term. And partly because it's such a currency, it's become the currency of our century, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately. But Freud had a lot to say about forms of attention. And I realized, oh, I really need to kind of dig there a little bit, because my understanding of attention is not Google's or Instagram's understanding of attention. It's not about capturing eyeballs, as they say. It's quite a different process. So I had to find a way to kind of make sure the big topics make their way into the book. But I wanted to do it with a kind of playful sense because, you know, it's so much easier to learn a thing when it's fun rather than didactic. And so that was the kind of impulse behind arranging the letters, as I did.
- [23:35]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
I mean, it kind of goes back to what we were saying at the beginning around kind of the pedagogy of all of this. Like, actually some seemingly really simple questions or simple ideas like, hey, make it fun. Hey, include some illustrations, right? Like, that can actually make quite a big impact, and not just for some of these things around kind of learning or education or conversation. Starting as the example you gave us before, you also talk about sense making, but even more than that, dreams as tools for healing. Can you tell us more about this aspect of the book?
- [24:05]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Yeah, this is a really important. The excess for Xanax probably signals that, you know, that it's actually something that many Indigenous communities in North America where I live have known for some time, and that, you know, they have a sense. I live in an area where there's Anishinaabe people. You know, there's a sense of dreams as medicine. And there's, I should say, too, there's a really big explosion in neuroscience that confirms this idea in terms of Western medicine, you know, neurologically speaking, dreaming. The process of dreaming mimics what some pharmaceuticals do. You know, they correspond to the activation of the emotional and reward systems of the brain. You know, there's increased activity in the amygdala and the dopamine system, similar to that class of drugs, benzos, you know, which of which Xanax is a trade name. But dreams do this in a kind of holistic way. They don't just address the body, you know, they don't just have biological effects. They do have biological effects that as we're dreaming, this is happening to our body. In that sense, dreams are medicine, but they do also address your psyche, your kind of spiritual center. They help consolidate memories. They treat you as a whole person. In that sense. We would wish of Western medicine, of a holistic approach to treatment. And so this is a really important piece that I think we're still learning a lot about, I mean, in terms of Western science. But I'm just starting some work with a community health center here in Toronto, and it happens to be a safe injection site. But it's the same thing. We're trying to think about how dreams, and talking about dreams and sharing dreams and working with dreams, both in an individual and collective way, can be a form of healthcare. And it needs to come back, I think, as a form of healthcare.
- [25:57]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
Yeah, that would definitely be a very interesting thing to see going forward in the kind of research and medicine, I suppose, side of things. Is there anything further that readers or listeners can do sort of in the meantime, in their own social circles and their own minds around dreams? Anything that you haven't mentioned yet you want to highlight?
- [26:16]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Well, I mean, I just. I think I'm hoping that the book will help people be curious in their own dreams and be curious in the dreams of others. You know, dreams help us say things that we may not say in our more guarded moments. You know, your mind is at rest, and there's a. If you're just interested in what happens and what comes into your mind and these times of rest, I mean, daydreams work almost analogously to dreams that you dream while you're asleep. You know, if you're just interested in what's happening in your mind and in the minds of others, I think this is a kind of transformational activity. You know, I mentioned my colleague who I ran into on the street and how that happened in her family. But, you know, being attuned to another's life world is for me, a way of coming alive to life. You know, life itself becomes much more vibrant because you're you're open to the full range of meaning that can come. And so I, it's, you know, the. I can't. I actually don't even know where the book has been classified, like where you'll find it in a bookstore. But I'm guessing it, it could either be in politics or it could be in self help. But for me it's about trying to bring those two categories together. You know, that, that the kind of practices that we have in our day to day lives also are a form of politics and a form of how we interact with each other in a social sense.
- [27:41]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
Yeah, no, that's definitely a key point to emphasize. And you mentioned that you're continuing to work on these sorts of topics going forward. So is there anything further you want to give us a sneak preview of?
- [27:52]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Yeah, I mentioned earlier that I have a big research project called the Museum of Dreams and we just launched, partly because of the experience with Londoners and talking to them about their Covid dreams, we just launched a big project called dreamers of the 21st century. And it's a large scale kind of project about contemporary dream life. We're gathering, we're talking to people in an ongoing kind of way. And it's built through a series of community collaborations. The project, similar to the book, kind of showcases how dreams provide an alternate view of some of our most entrenched political conflicts. And we just launched three chapters so far. There's a chapter which is called Geneva and it features the daydreams of people at a migrant center in that city, which is the city that's home to international humanitarian law Toronto, which as I mentioned, spotslights injection drug users who are grappling with the forced closure of supervised consumption sites in this city and where we have an ongoing opioid crisis. And then London, which we gathered together, the material that we gather from residents of the capital to describe how their dreams help them make sense of the COVID 19 pandemic. So we kind of are proceeding this way, working with communities. It's a good way to kind of gather material, I think. And yeah, it's a huge, huge archive. So we have lots and lots of testimony there. We've done different things with the material. We have been working with artists and photographers to document the dreams and the dreamers. So, you know, you released it just a couple of weeks ago and I'm really excited about it. But yeah, check it out.
- [29:33]
Dr. Miranda Melcher
That sounds very cool. Thank you for telling us about it and definitely worth some investigation. And of course, the book we've been discussing is a beautiful complement. Or I guess they complement each other. I suppose so. For any listeners who want to find out more, it is titled An Alphabet for How to See the World with Eyes closed, published by MIT Press in 2025. Sharon, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
- [29:58]
Dr. Sharon Slavinsky
Thank.
- [30:08]
Marshall Poe
You.