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Sheiba Kian Kaufman, "Persian Paradigms in Early Modern English Drama" (Oxford UP, 2025)
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- [00:00]
A
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B
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of New Books Network. This is your host, Moteza Hatizadeh from Critical Theory Channel. Today I'm honored to be speaking with Dr. Sheba Kian Kaufman about her most recent book that she has published with Oxford University Press. It's a fascinating topic. The book is called Persian Paradigms in Early Modern English drama hospitableities. Dr. Sheba Kian Kaufman is Assistant professor of English at Saddleback College and also a lecturer at the University of California. Shiva, welcome to New Books Network.
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C
Thank you so much for having me. This is such an honor to be here.
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B
I think before we started the interview, I told you that I was really amazed to see this book. And the reason is that I think it has been a lot of scholarship about the influence of the Arab influence or Islamic influence on Shakespeare or even Turkish influence on early English drama, but I hadn't really seen anything about the influence of the Persian culture on early modern English drama. And then this book was there, and I was so amazed to see the book in print. Before we talk about the book, can you just very briefly introduce yourself? Tell us about your field of expertise and then what was the inception point of this book? Where did the idea come to you?
- [02:33]
C
So this book has a history across a few continents. I actually began the book about 20 years ago at Oxford University. I was completing my master's there. And as I was deciding on my thesis and consulting with my advisor, I was actually working more with 18th century travel writers. And of course, I was heavily influenced by Said's Orientalism. That was, you know, I really enjoyed that theory. I wanted to engage with it, but I also wanted to do something that was a little less apparent, you know, part of it, but a little bit, you know, a different corner of it. And at the time, my advisor said, well, why don't you look at, you know, 18th century travel writers and their perceptions of Buddhists and Hindus and Zoroastrians, sort of the, you know, non Abrahamic religions. And I thought that was fascinating because I thought I was going to work only on Islam. And so I actually began it very with a very historicist perspective and just looking at how these English and French travel writers understood ancient Persian religion, Zoroastrianism, this work really transformed and evolved. When I began my PhD program at UC Irvine, I had my advisor, Julia Lupton is a Shakespeare scholar, and we were working. You know, she really introduced me to these theories of hospitality that were very. I just latched onto it very quickly. And I think it's honestly because it was so authentic to my culture as a person. Hospitality is. You're just born with that. That is what we're sort of known for around the world. Exactly. So it was just really this, this perfect confluence that brought me to continue this work, but under a very, I believe, a very dynamic theoretical framework of hospitality.
- [04:50]
B
You mentioned theories of hospitality, and the first time I came across the theory of hospitality, and that's something I didn't read very carefully myself, it was Jacques Derrida, because he's famous or let's some might say infamous for his difficult theories with deconstruction. But then somebody told me that if people would read his other writings, they would find him more approachable. And one of them was his theories on hospitality, which you have used in your book. Can you just very briefly tell us what is hospitality from a scholarship, a theoretical perspective, what is those theories of hospitality? Just in a nutshell, in two or three minutes, and then we'll start talking about the book.
- [05:36]
C
Sure. So hospitality, I think what's important about hospitality is, of course, within our field, like English literature, you know, Derrida, these figures have such an influence. But hospitality is truly global and it's. It's across faith traditions. It's very global. As I said, the Persian culture, hospitality is revered as A significant virtue, but really a way of life. So with hospitality and literature we're looking at a couple of different aspects. You know, there is in English culture you think of hospitality as the court and the court culture and those sort of ceremonial aspects. But then we also have a huge theoretical world of ethics and hospitality and how do we treat others, how do we treat the, you know, quote the stranger, the other person coming into our world. So of course Kant very famously has again work on cosmopolitanism and hospitality. So this is a very rich tradition, very much in the Western tradition, but it is very global. And I would say that I found other theorists as well that were looking at hospitality from an inter religious and a diverse perspective. So that's what I was really capped captivated by. And also the fact that so hospitality can be very theoretical and, and very ethics based, but it's also practical and it's part of lived experience. And then theater is such a natural place to exercise that because hospitality is about welcoming someone at your door. There's risks, there's rewards, there's traditions, there's staging, there's where do you place things, where do you place the food, where do you place everything? So it's such a, a rich framework to think about in terms of when we're analyzing particularly drama, which is what I'm doing in the book. I'm looking at early modern English drama.
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B
It's a very interesting analogy between hospitality and setting the room and also theater stage, which I'd never thought about. But you're right, it's like a ritual itself. Let's talk about the title of it will go. You have Persian paradigms in your introduction. And also here you mentioned Edward Said in your introduction you talk about more recent scholarships on plays of Persia and Persian paradigm that has been present or has influenced English drama. But you consider it to be a bit distinct. I was wondering what you mean by that Persian pattern and how. And you do not really take up a traditional orientalist approach here. You go beyond that and you challenge that traditional orientalist approach readings of that period. Can you talk about these aspects of the book?
- [08:46]
C
Yes, definitely. I'm glad that it does feel that I'm going beyond Orientalism because we are so indebted to orientalism. And I think that the way you honor the theories and the thoughts that inspired you to think more deeply is by engaging so deeply. And so when I think of. So yeah, I will unpack a little bit of the term the paradigm that I use in this. There are a few entry points in this Conversation involving early modernity, English literature and Orientalism. And as we said for most of it, would be very familiar with Said's work, which Said himself says he works very much in later periods, although he does also mention the Persians and the Greeks in his work Orientalism, but he works also with later periods. So in my work, one aspect that I've mentioned, religion is really foregrounded, and it includes Islam, but it also is including Zoroastrianism, which was the religion of the ancient Persian Empire. And of course, Zoroastrianism is still a world religion today. This isn't always a significant part of the discussions of Orientalism. Looking at really trying to understand the variety of thoughts that is part of cultures in these regions of the world. I also really love the concept of a paradigm. It's used in also many different conversations, a paradigm shift, you know. And so it kind of has this weighty element to it, but it's a very generative idea. And I think what it does for me, it allows me to think beyond representations. Well, not necessarily ignoring representation, because that is important as well, but I think of it more as a analogy. So it's analogical thinking and it's interculturalism. And so what I'm doing with Persian paradigms is I'm looking at an intellectual history that considers hospitality, as we've discussed, and toleration. These two are particularly in this time period, they become tangled together in really interesting ways, particularly in the drama that I look at. So hospitality and toleration, like religious toleration. So I look at this as a intellectual history of hospitality and toleration that's part of a spectrum of globalities of thought and lived experience. So, as I mentioned, the Persians is a starting point for thinking about Orientalist thought in Greek representations. But when we start to add elements that are authentic to the culture, such as hospitality and looking at, well, how do concepts of Persian hospitality get transmitted? Of course, we know the Greek influence is very important, but tracing this history is what really fascinated me. When I saw, just to take an example, one of the quotes I have in my book John Ogilvy in his Atlas in Asia in 1673, when he says, the Persians are affable and courteous not only to one another, but especially to strangers to whom, as we've said before, they are also very hospitable and in their discourses use many complimental expressions. When they invite anyone to their house, they commonly say, honor my house with your presence. I offer myself to you, I prostate myself at your feet. And the like for they're very full of such obliging expressions. I mean, this is. There are elements of authenticity here that are fascinating to me that observers have not misrepresented, not exaggerated, not attempted necessarily to dominate, but actually to capture elements of the culture that were authentic. So I found that very fascinating. And that's part of the. The foundation for this work.
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B
It indeed is. And I think it's. It's a more suitable little paradigm to look at those plays. And another part of the book I enjoyed is. Is some of those Persian concepts, literary concepts that. Or cultural practices that you try to. That you unpack in the book. And one of them is the concept of adaptation in. And I don't know if there is a proper. Well, I'll leave it to you to find a proper, let's say, English equivalent that can, you know, carry the whole concept, if possible, the concept of adapt as a key ethical and cultural practice in Persia. What was the meaning of adapt? And how does it help us to interpret this, the idea of global hospitalities, a cultural exchange in the Renaissance?
- [14:22]
C
Yes, I think, you know, for. For many Persians, Adab is. It's a way of life, you know, just as hospitality is a way we practice. And I don't, you know, I'm also at a loss. There isn't one word that I think captures Adab. Maybe you. You might have one. But I mean, I think there's refinement, it's ethics, it's manners, it's the way you behave. You don't want to be. Be Adab. You don't want to have a lack of this morals and values. It's just so deep. And what I found was when we talk about such global icons like Cyrus the Great and how in this time period, because of the influence of Xenophon Cyropedia that's been established by pioneering scholars in the field of Persia, plays of Persia in this period. What is Xenophon noting? What are all these amazing virtues that are being heralded in these figures that are part of their identity? So that's what I was looking at. I was looking at ultimately the virtues that come out that are part of. So ingrained in. In the culture that it is simply a way of being. So it's. And again, it's. What I love about Adab is that it's not just theory. You really live it. And for much of the purginate world, it was, you know, in those time periods. There's a lot of scholars who've written about it, particularly in the Persianate world and India and, you know, all of those regions in these times, it was part of lived experience. It was part of the way you lived. A lot of it was also transmitted through religion and culture. We know, of course, through, you know, Persian poetry, very famous, you know, wisdom and poetry. And it is just, you know, it has continued to be transmitted. And so that, again, the intellectual history is fascinating for me to see that this concept and this way of being continues to be looked at in a positive way from Xenophon, from the Western perspective, you know, from Xenophon, and then reinterpreted based on that in early modern English literature.
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B
And you're absolutely right. It's really, really difficult to kind of define that term. Adapt ritual. I don't. I really don't. Courtesy. Well, that's for the sake of doing is like a courtesy, but I don't think it's conveys the whole meaning. But, you know, for the uninitiated or non Persian listeners, let's just say courtesy. Let's talk about some of the plays that you discuss in the book. I think, as I mentioned earlier to you, the influence of the Ottoman Empire's influence on England was, or even on English drama was more or less familiar. You had tropes such as turning Turk that you have discussed in the book. In King Lear, in Shakespeare's King Lear, you read one of the characters, Edgar, as Shakespeare's Persian Tom, let's say. And can you explain about that? Who is Persian Tom and why you think Edgar is that character? And what I'm also interested in is that this Persian transformation, what does it reveal about early modern anxieties around identity when you compare it to more or less familiar figures or tropes? Such is the turning Turk that I mentioned.
- [18:19]
C
Right, right. Yes. I like thinking of Edgar as Shakespeare's Persian Tom in this one moment that is, you know, it's right in the middle of the play. And it has gotten attention from, you know, from scholars who've said really fascinating things. And it's such a, you know, it's a strange moment. You know, it's this. It's one of his very few, if not sole Persian allusion. Well, sole Persian allusion in King Lear. And it's, you know, he essentially, you know, it's the middle of King Lear and King Lear is on the heath. And it's those moments of. In the storm, those moments of upheaval. It's a very difficult moment. And Edgar comes and he sort of. He helps him by essentially, I'm just looking For I wanted to actually quote from you that what he says to him, essentially, he helps him. He imagines in his head that he sees these barking dogs. And then he tells them. He tells them to, you know, get away. He helps protect him. And through this, King Lear, even though he's in this sort of delusional, anxious state, those moments, he accepts Edgar and he says, you know, I want you to be part of my soldiers, my retinue, but I don't like your clothes, that you'll say that they're Persian, so let them be changed. So what he's seeing is a figure that looks Persian who's come to aid him in that moment of distress. And this is a very different moment then, as you said, the turning Turk moment. This is a moment of care, where you see the ethics of care. And of course, it is very ironic because we know Edgar at this moment is dressed like a pauper. He's not wearing. Traditionally staged with just tattered garments. So he's not wearing. What would you could say? Oh, he's wearing Orientalist, luxurious clothes in King Lear's mind. But. But he's not. You know, he's actually not. So it's a very fascinating moment for me. But at the heart of it is a. You know, there's an offer of employment to sort of this Persian figure, right. Edgar impersonating sort of. Or King Lear seeing Edgar as his Persian figure. So there's an offer of employment, but it's also a moment of care, you know, and a relationship between these two figures. And so I try to look for these moments. And scholars have been looking for these moments where English characters are seen as Persian. We do have other plays where they put on Persian clothing and they're assumed to be put on Persian clothing and kind of inhabit this Persian Persona. And every time it's very different. It doesn't have necessarily a stable meaning across things. It can often be a positive or at least just a more dynamic change in Persona rather than just a sort of seen as maybe negative or frightening or intimidating. It doesn't have necessarily those associations. So it remains to me a fascinating, enigmatic moment in King Lear.
- [22:08]
B
And I think we in literature. Cause we really love those indeterminacies that are open to interpretation.
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C
Right, Right.
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B
Yeah. And another thing I must mention before going to the next question is that one thing I really loved about the book is that I kind of felt embarrassed myself because I've done a PhD English literature. But there were a lot of plays here that I didn't know anything about absolutely had no idea that these plays even existed. So I'm definitely going to read them soon. And some of them are the ones that you also mentioned in the second chapter of the book. That's where you talk about references to Persian monarchs, especially during Renaissance time and early modernism. And then you establish that these, some of these plays establish a linkage, a connection between the idea of hospitality and Persian monarchs. And you talk about three Elizabethan plays of Persia. And in one of them, Interlude, if I'm pronouncing it correctly, Interlude of Godly Queen Hester, that's where you introduce a concept, a concept of hospitable temporality. First, can you just very briefly tell us what that plays about or those, what general. Generally speaking, what are those plays of Persia? And then in that particular play, Queen Hester, what do you mean by hospitable temporality? I love the definition that you introduced there. And then what does it tell us about the. How does it help us understand the politically flexible and cosmopolitan moments, those cross cultural moments in early modern stage?
- [23:49]
C
Sure, yes. I put these three, you know, in terms of drama, you know, it's so hard coming from Shakespeare to these lesser known plays, you know, in terms of drama, you know, the dramaturgy and all of that, they're not the most developed, you know, so it's okay that you haven't necessarily read them. I think they're much more fascinating for the intellectual history and the culture that they reveal. More so than necessarily the, you know, I mean, I guess they could be staged in interesting ways. So these cluster of plays that I sort of put together are plays that largely, you know, either represent or stage biblical scenes. Biblical scenes of Cyrus, Queen Esther and Xerxes. And then the Cyrus one is biblical, but also classical, as I said. Cyrus becomes a mixture of Xenophon and Cyrus from the Bible. And we have Darius. Darius. So these figures that are known to the English, known to Europeans through the Bible, and that's very, very important, I think, just to put them in that, put them in that cluster because that is very much at this moment what they are thinking about. There isn't necessarily. And as you can see, I definitely had. This was much more of a conceptual book rather than looking at the history actually of the exchange. There's great work on that. So I wasn't looking at that. But. But in a general way we could say there isn't that much historical trade and travel. It does pick up later in the period, but in this earlier time it was very little and fits and starts so when they're representing Persia, they're really the debut. I call it Persia's debut because before that, of course, we have medieval drama, which is not necessarily staging these Persian scenes, which was interesting because, you know, I mean, I'm not a medievalist at all, but I do love, you know, medieval literature as well. And when I, at least when I studied was biblical scenes, but it wasn't these biblical scenes, right? It wasn't Persia. And so it's very interesting at this moment when we're thinking about monarchy, we're thinking about, you know, what's happening in the state in terms of religious toleration, terms of. And again, hospitality and toleration keeps getting intertwined in different ways. Charity is another term used in these earlier ones in terms of that kind of toleration framework. So that's sort of the cluster. So it kind of reenacts these plays. And then specifically with Queen Esther and Xerxes, we have this inter religious marriage. Although he doesn't know her true identity, right? As she's seen as a Jewish heroine, a hero, she is not known to him. And so much of the play is about sort of her hidden identity, her hidden race even. I found it interesting that the play even used that term. And what I start to note from this play and going forward is this idea of a hospitable temporality. A time when the hospitable impulse is able to be at the forefront of the political realm and so that the laws are subjugated, they're sort of malleable. They can be. There's room, there's room for flexibility, I guess you could say. And so hospitality takes over. And I think of this very much in terms of, for instance, the Cyrus Cylinder, which is later in the book as well, when you have a moment of religious freedom or toleration and it's sort of part of the realm, or when laws are kind of put aside for that hospitable goal between two different, you know, two different individuals. I think of this very much, which, you know, in an even broader sense, I think of it in the realm. A fascinating historical example for those who are having contemporary conversations in the evolving work of virtue ethics. Meeting Human Rights. Michael Penn is someone who's written a really fascinating work on where is the room for individual virtue ethics when you talk about human rights in terms of the letter of the law, you know, virtue ethics looks at moral selves rather than moral laws. And one reason, you know, there's a question about human rights is because this moral self or Individual self, which is part of the virtue ethics, often is more progressive than the law of the land. Right. So that individual. So again, going back to, like Edgar, that individual care, you know, between individuals. So I look at, you know, Esther, I look at capacity. She's empowered in the realm. She's. She's brought into the realm. Her identity is later known and it's empowered. And a lot of, you know, we get this moment where, as I said, the laws are amendable. And that's what I look at as the sort of hospitable temporality. There's a sort of a pause or the time is out of that moment of the laws that bind the people.
- [29:55]
B
Let me ask you about another aspects of Shakespearean plays. That's the Venetian place where with the travelers, the travelers of the three English brothers. Then in this play, you identify a shift towards a successful intercultural marriage. And then I'm interested to know what does that shift reveal about English fantasies of Persian tolerance? How was those fantasies of Persian culture influenced that play?
- [30:27]
C
Yes. So this is one of the most well known plays in terms of the discussions of Persia in the Renaissance. And particularly because it features these historical figures of the Shirley brothers. And one of them, Robert Shirley, marries a woman that's part of the nobility, you know, part of the shawn on her done as well. So you have this intercultural, you know, we could say inter religious, although she is known to be, you know, Catholic, whether she converted, you know, before. But ultimately, definitely an intercultural marriage. And so this is what you see in the play. It's successful, it's hyperbolic. It has a lot of, again, so people read it, as you said, fantasies or even propaganda of what the Shirleys are doing and what their influence is in Persia. It's obviously very exaggerated. Robert Shirley is seen as this great, you know, he becomes his great son in law of schlampas. So beyond the rhetoric of how the Shirley brothers are representing themselves in this play, the travels of the three English brothers, what we have in terms of a paradigm or even a pattern is an example of an intercultural marriage that doesn't end in tragedy. So we're used to Dido. We're used to later on, of course, Othello and Desdemona. We're used to intercultural, inter religious, interracial marriages ending in tragedy. That's more. We see more of those than ones that don't just. And straight tragedy, meaning death, some version of death. Of course, conversion is another one that we have in the Merchant of Venice, again, an interfaith marriage, but it's dependent on conversion. So you have one here where even, you know, although later, when in the end of the play, they do talk about Christianity in Persia, but the initial marriage is not necessarily in the play. Is. Is. Is intercultural and interfaith. So it doesn't end in tragedy. And so that's what I thought was. Was very interesting, right, to look at. Where do you have these intercultural. These. These marriages between different individuals not ending in tragedy. And you mentioned this idea of the fantasies of Persian tolerance and toleration in this play is fascinating. So I started to just trace the intellectual history of. Or just trace the term liberty of conscience in English, how it's used in literature just historically. And it really doesn't fully become this concept till a bit later. And to see Shot at Boss in the play the Travels of the Three English Brothers, he's the sort of reigning monarch. He's, you know, at the center of the play with the Shirley brothers. He tells the Shirley brothers when they arrive in Persia that they can have liberty of conscience. And. And it's just quite radical and as you said, fantasy. It's radical to have that. Sure. Definitely propaganda. Oh, let's all go there. There's liberty of conscience. But if you compare it to a play from a bit before, again, Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, where Shylock is deprived of that liberty of conscience, where he is ultimately forced to convert, and he literally does not, or he says he does not feel. Well, this is amazing because you just get this very interesting connection. So the. The shah is hospitable and then he literally, you know, in terms of just the. The term, says that term, liberty of conscience. So you see a very straightforward. Now, rather than, you know, somewhat, you'd have to infer with some other things, but here you just see straightforward hospitable king. And then he says the terms liberty of conscience. So I found that to be really fascinating, especially when you look at the rise of toleration discourse in England, in Europe, but particularly in England. And to see it coming out of the mouth of a Persian, again, a very interesting fantasy. The history is also very interesting. I would just want to say, to look at that Sho Abbas was known for aspects of toleration, but it's a lot more complicated. I won't necessarily go into the history. Shtola Quinn and others have explained his relationship with Armenians and different things like that. That's fascinating.
- [35:37]
B
Can you also talk about the idea of hidden hospitality? Hospitality that is absent in Shakespeare's days but appears In Persian settings. What is that?
- [35:46]
C
Yeah. And so, you know, this was another pattern that I was tracing. And what really got me was Othello's, you know, defense. In Othello, you know, when he's brought to the core, after he's married Desdemona, he starts his. His. His defense of himself by saying, his father loved me. Her. Her father loved me oft invited me. And. And in some versions, you know, movie versions or different versions, you get these flashbacks of Borbanchio and Othello as sort of, you know, before their father, father in law, or son and father in law as. As having these really, you know, warm relationship beforehand. We also see something somewhat similar, a little different in, for instance, the relationship between. You know, it's not in this book, but I've written about, like, for instance, Prospero and Caliban. You know, he says, when I first came here, you were. You took care of me, or you were kind. So. And then also in, like, Merchant, there is a dinner that Shylock goes to, but we don't see them having dinner together. So again and again, often the characters that become that are tortured essentially by the majority, the minority characters, you know, Othellos and Shylocks and Caliban, they talk about, hey, there was a time where we got along a lot better. But that's never staged, and I found that to be very interesting. So Shakespeare wants that to be known, obviously, but he decides not to. To stage it. I don't have a full reason on why beyond just maybe, you know, obviously Shakespeare's important. You know, the craft of the play is important. And maybe some of these scenes are just boring. You know, there's this joke that kind of has come up a lot in my work that, you know, hospitality is interesting to stage because there's risks and rewards, but, like, toleration, that's, like, really boring. You know, you can't. You can't stage toleration. You can't exactly stage peace. So, you know, that I. I can't say that I have a particular reason for that. But what happens as we see it in the Shirley play and later in other plays, this hospitality, or at least this amicable relationship between Persians and English, is actually dramatized. So it's interesting to think of this as part of, really, an expansion of the social imaginary. When we're thinking of these relationships between people. And the title of my book is Looking at Globality, there isn't just one globe. It is not just everything is horrible and hostile or everything is wonderful and hospitable there's multiple globalities here. So there's times of open hostility, there's times of hospitality, but it's not necessarily apparent. And I think these are all discussions of how we, that time period and how we today really use the imagination. Right. Maybe Shakespeare wanted us to imagine, you know, the hidden hospitality because it's narrated and not staged, but just imagining relationships between people who won't necessarily have relationships. But that creates the imagination as just this very powerful faculty, I think, very much of today, recently, like Ruha Benjamin's work on the imagination. And she says imagination is a sacred space of a connection with the past and the future where poetic knowledge can emerge. So whether it's hyperbolic, whether, however it is in these Persian settings, it's still there and it's still part of the social imaginary.
- [40:03]
B
You're right. These are all really complicated and fascinating topics that we really wish we could delve deeper into them. And I must say that one aspect of the book that I absolutely loved was when you discussed, because, you know, Jacobian drama that time, or Tzabitan drama, that was a politically turbulent times in Europe, at the same time in Iran as well. And there are a number of plays you mentioned that. The Temple of Love, for example, the Royal Slave, the Sofie, and they all use Persia both symbolically and politically in these plays. And there were a lot of Orientalist misconceptions about Persia or the east or the Ottomans as well. But how did these imageries, how did the Persian imagery, let's particularly interested in Persian imagery, become a vehicle for debates about the role of monarch, reform and political legitimacy, or the legitimacy of monarch in the Carolina era?
- [41:13]
C
Yes, things definitely shift in the arc of tracing these plays, and they definitely take on different roles in the conversation of what's happening also in England, as you said, about monarchy and reform, religious reform, religious changes, some of these in the 1630s that I look at, as you said, there's a Mass, the Temple of Love. There's one also, William Cartwright's the Royal Slave, which is just fascinating. It uses this tradition of the idea of having a mock king. It's very unknown where this idea comes from, but sort of this idea that there's a Persian tradition, that someone is a mock king, they reign for a period of time and then they're executed. And in the royal slave, 1636, you. You see again, this moment of the cosmopolitan or the hospitable temporality, the royal slave, who's Ephesian, who's part of the Greek contingents in the Play, he ultimately is not killed. Even the Persian king tries to stop the tradition cannot. But then later, in the form of providence, sort of this divine sign from the Persian religion, he is. Is saved. So he. That Persian law doesn't even. Is quite malleable. We see that in other plays as well, where there's some Persian traditions that are kind of like up for debate that they don't have to, or they claim are Persian traditions, but then, you know, there's a little wiggle room. We don't have to follow the letter of the law. And I think that's so fascinating when you have a period of time when they're really considering how individuals and the collective society function in this time period. What's also fascinating is how they use, again, this ancient Persian setting to talk about, particularly in those eras, the debates on the reforms under Archbishop Laud and what he was doing with. What they were doing with the representations of sacramentalism and ceremony and worship. More emphasis on, you know, again, this sort of representational element of worship and religious worship, using the word altar, for instance. And so then in the play, where, excuse me, in the play, you see, there's references to, again, what was kind of thought of as ancient Persian religion. Not Zoroastrianism necessarily, although there are references to Zoroastrianism in this time period, or attempts to sort of understand that, but more Persian Mithraism and the idea of the sun. There's a temple of the sun with a Persian magi worshiping the sun. So it's really interesting. So again, this idea of ceremony and worship is almost aligned with the Persian traditions and customs. So it's this other culture that's quite familiar and doing things the way. Way that they are attempting to do things as well. This time period was also very fascinating because again, we do start seeing the rise of travel writers. I mean, that is even earlier from the travels of the three English brothers. But there's. Academically, there are chairs and chairs established at Oxford for Persian and Arabic. So things are certainly evolving quickly in terms of. Of the field of the study of the Orient, if you would say. So things definitely are changing in this time period.
- [45:21]
B
In you discuss Cyrus the Great. He's still a very important figure in Persian history and especially these days. His idea of tolerance is even revived in Iranian culture and psyche as well. Well, I was kind of quite surprised to know that. I knew that he was kind of well known, let's say, in Europe in that time or even in England at that time. But I wasn't aware of literary references to him, which is what you discuss in chapter five of the book, that his figure as a figure that embodies Persian adab, was revived at the end of 17th century, and that was especially in the following years, the years following the Glorious Revolution. Can you tell us about little references to him and how, let's say, how. How the rise of his figure in. In the literary psyche of England, let's say, how did it become a model, let's say, for rethinking about monarchy in that time.
- [46:28]
C
Right. You know, I think we could. I could have a book called like, you know, the Cyrus Obsession or so. Cyrus is such an important figure obviously in the ancient world, the classical world, but as a student of English literature, obviously growing up in the west myself, you know, it's not a figure you study, you know, and I think the first wave of scholarship, pioneering scholarship on Persia and the Renaissance was very. And continues to do so, you know, to say that the Renaissance was only about sort of the Roman Empire, the Greek culture, but Persian Empire and Persian culture and figures like Cyrus from Xenophon, Cyropedia, at least that's how it was transmitted, are vital to the literature. So beyond, you know, in the earlier period, as we were discussing those cluster of plays, the Queen Esther plays and Darius and Cyrus, Cyrus, you know, so Xenophon becomes very much the preferred text of reading and learning about his life. But then later in the period, so late 17th century, Cyrus is in so many various texts, it's unbelievable. So Thomas Browne has the Garden of Cyrus, you know, this sort of very interesting text, and he's just kind of trying to get to the origin of gardens. And I'm like, well, how does he know about paradise and these Persian concepts of the garden, these are very important concepts in Zoroastrian theology, you know, that the garden is a place of unity and diversity and the king overlooks it. And that's in Thomas Browne's 1658 Garden of Cyrus. Like, how does this happen? Cyrus comes up in John Dryden's poetry. John Dryden is not known necessarily for Cyrus, but he has a reference to Cyrus after England goes through the Great Fire and Annis Mirabilis, the year of wonders. And then another figure that's very interesting is Jane Lead in her diary. She was part of these toleration movements. She also references Cyrus and the Cyrus spirit. So it's all over. And then in French romances, you have this sort of grand Cyrus romance series that influences. Also is translated, it influences English literature. So then by the end of the 17th century, Cyrus sort of comes back to the stage. There weren't so many plays about Cyrus, even if there were references in literature. But in terms of the drama, he comes back in 1696 and this very interesting play by John Banks, as I said, it's a time of political turmoil. And whether Cyrus represents one political side or the other, it's just fascinating to see him again heralded as this sort of paradigm for real, for ideal leadership. His virtues are heralded. It is, you know, his toleration is heralded in the play. And even these other virtues of kind of humanizing I talk about are there presented. But what happens is it's also part of again that toleration discourse. So by the end of the 17th century with John Locke, other toleration discourse in England becomes far more prevalent. There's a toleration act. But again, when you look at figures of Cyrus and how they're staged, the way their virtues, their, their liberality, those things are emphasized in these plays, they're going beyond, you know, toleration. And this is a very modern concept. You know, like we can't just tolerate one another. You know, we really need kindness and liberality and generosity and essentially hospitality as an act that goes beyond toleration is brought out again in this sort of end of 17th century drama. And in the language of civility, which was part of the toleration discourse is also associated with Cyrus in the Romances, but it's part of this figure at this time period. So a very fascinating figure at the center of, of the end of the century politics and toleration discourse that's actually becoming codified. Whereas it wasn't earlier with Shah Abbas in the, you know, earlier, but by the late 17th century we actually have some acts of toleration.
- [51:23]
B
One final question that I have is I think it's more, more a mix of, let's say personal and academic and your scholar and academic experience. When you reflect on your own Persian American experience, how does that personal memory track with scaling analysis in telling the stories about hospitality migration and global belonging and cultural exchange?
- [51:50]
C
You know, my advisor who, who, who lived hospitality just as she taught hospitality, she's not Persian, but let's just say when we try paying for each other's food, you would think it's two Persians arguing who pays the bill. She told me once, you know, she told me to really own this project. I actually had hesitations earlier. I thought that a really good scholarly project would be a bit distance from your identity in some degree. You know, so I was a bit hesitant to have so much authenticity, you know, have ideas and concepts that were part of my identity as part of my scholarship as well. But she said, you know, few have gone to Shakespeare via Iran, and that meant a lot to me. So, you know, as a. As a first generation, you know, Persian American with parents who grew up in Iran with immigrant parents, memory is really a source of transmitting snapshots of authentic culture. When a parent says, oh, this reminds me of when we were in Tehran and this happened and so forth. So memory is a vehicle for accessing heritage and participating in these past moments that are so influential and impressionable. Impressionable memories is also tied to wisdom and what was gained through these experiences throughout the world from migrating, finding a new home. And I really, you know, I found this beautiful story that, you know, is known more in the Parsi tradition of sugar and milk. And I love this story because there's a new children's book, or somewhat not new, but at the time that I was writing the epilogue, it was a children's book about sugar and milk. And it's this really fascinating, beautiful story of migration and accepting others. And the metaphor that's used is sugar as the sort of foreign element put into milk and then becomes this beautiful new drink, right, that's sweetened and has this foreign element or this different element into it. And for me, you know, this was so much a part of my life growing up in Los Angeles having, you know, a grandmother who also spoke Russian, actually, because she was from Eschabad, which there are many Persians that were living in the, you know, 1920s in Eschabad. So she spoke Russian, she spoke Persian, and her life was hospitality, and she was Mehmandust. She loved guests, and she would go and visit everyone in the neighborhood. And that's what she did as someone who came to this country as a senior, and I was a child, and I got to experience that with her, where she wasn't only meeting with Persians, but she was meeting with everyone in the neighborhood, you know, people who were Hispanic and primarily spoke Spanish and Armenian and Russian and all different cultures. So I would have to say that there's very much an element of lived experience that was new, exciting, and at first, a bit frightening to. To be part of my scholarship. But I'm so glad that I was encouraged to. To own that and, you know, and create that belonging within my own scholarship.
- [55:43]
B
And you mentioned that you're working on another book. Can you tell us what that book is and when do you expect that to come? Out.
- [55:50]
C
Yes. So as I said, Cyrus was such a big figure. And ultimately, with the exception of Queen Esther, a lot of this book, you know, focuses on kings, right? It's Persian kings. They're males again, with the exception of Queen Esther. So I have now turned to a female monarch, Queen Sheba, who is my namesake with no I is how you know, she's known in the. She's known as Queen Sheba. She's known as Saba. She's in the, you know, she's known in the Quran. She's known in the Ethiopian tradition. She's known in the Jewish tradition. She's really this global figure, also of wisdom and also of this intercultural, interreligious, interracial union with Solomon. And so I'm researching on her. I'm trying to create it as a global work, as a work that's accessible to many audiences and hopefully brings that authenticity and that sense of belonging to a variety of audiences. So I'm very excited about this work on Queen Sheba and her wisdom and her wit in the world. And so this is the next book, and I'm just at the beginning stages of it.
- [57:19]
B
Well, hopefully we should be able to talk to you about this book soon on New Books Network. I'd like to thank you for taking the time to speak with us about this wonderful book, Persian Paradigms in Early Modern English drama hospitable, global. Dr. Shiva Kian Kaufman, thank you so much for your time on New Books Network.
- [57:39]
C
Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. Thank you very much.