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C
Welcome to the New Books Network.
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A
Hello everyone, and welcome back to New Books in History, a channel on the New Books Network. I'm Yana Byers, your host, and I'm here today with Professor Spike Bucklow to talk about his new book, the Year out this year, 2025 with reaction books. Hello, Spike, and welcome to the program.
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C
Hi there and thank you very much for having me.
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A
I'm absolutely thrilled to talk to you today. So your previous books, the Riddle of the Image Red, the Science of a Color, and Children of Mercury kind of all fall into a sort of family like art and material culture. So this feels like a pretty big departure for you. What led you to write this book?
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C
Well, you're absolutely right. I mean, most of my career I have worked with artist materials and artists and artist methods. But I started my academic career as a chemist. And in fact I was doing a PhD on some kind of ecological chemistry in the 70s when I realized that actually what was required was political will, not technical savvy. I didn't have the political skills, so I left that and then I moved into heritage conservation, which is what I developed the books you mentioned and a few more. And you mentioned the Children of Mercury and the Children of Mercury. I was asked to write A biography of medieval artists. And I thought, well, that's not really my job because I'm a scientist. So I thought, well, how can I do this? So I looked at it from the point of view of the psychology of growing and aging. In other words, I wrote what I thought was a treatise on the seven ages of man made famous by Shakespeare's use of it. So I wrote about medieval artists in terms of how they might have understood their own lives, which is from conception to the age of three under the influence of the moon, from the age of 4 to 11 under the influence of Mercury, adolescence under the influence of Venus, et cetera. Because I was slightly outside my comfort zone, to be honest, when I had more or less finished the manuscript, I went to find a traditional astrologer to fact check my work. And when I was. She read my manuscript and tweaked, I was suggested some changes, which I was very, very pleased and happy about. And in that process, which was just, you know, chats around a kitchen table, she said she'd done some work, some workshops, and wanted to know what I thought of them. So I acknowledge this fully in the acknowledgments. Jane Chenkas Sunderland did some workshops with people once a month going out into the country, looking at, seeing what nature was doing and then trying to correlate it with what was going on in the sky, the zodiac. So I said, oh, well, that sounds interesting. And so over a course of a year, she sent me her workshop notes, which were a couple of pages of A4 once a month, so I could go and have a look, see what was going on. And I realized that this was actually a very interesting. So this is astrology or the zodiac from an Aristotelian point of view with. And I was perfectly aware of all of that kind of pre modern science because of my work with the material culture of works of art. I thought, this is a very interesting speculative piece of natural history. She said she couldn't write. Would I be interested? So I then wrote. And that's the book. The book is the result of her initial idea and then me trying to see how there were connections.
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A
That's an interesting way to come at a book. We usually kind of do it the other way. Right. I've got this argument I'm going to write a book about it.
- [06:08]
C
Exactly, exactly. I mean, I actually like being asked to do things that are outside my comfort zone because. Exactly. For that reason that they make you think in different ways. So like I said, children of Mercury, I didn't really want to write biographies. So I thought, well, how can I do that? And with this, I didn't have to do it, of course, but I did think it was a very interesting way of looking at things, because climate change is a major, major problem and its problems are partly to do with the way in which we think about nature. And so this was a different way of thinking about nature.
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A
I've struggled to find a genre for this book when describing it, and in honesty, I kind of struggled to really sum up what it's even about in a sentence or two. And I just think maybe the best way to really get at the book for our listeners is to go through the topics you raise really early in the prologue and then kind of address. So I want to start with a really simple idea, or not at all a simple idea. I'm not sure about the nature of time itself and how we understand the passing of time. So in the west, particularly the Judeo Christian west, we're deeply entrenched in the idea of, like, our creation, the eventual destruction. Time is linear and we love a progress narrative, but that isn't the case everywhere, right?
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C
Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And just to go back to your statement that it's hard to put a genre, to stick it in the genre, and you're absolutely right, and I know that I shoot myself in the foot regularly by doing this. I don't help things by coming up with titles for books that are actually not always terribly clear. But, yes, the nature of time is very important. We have, in the Judeo Christian world, made it linear. We have, since the 17th century in particular, made that linearity a progress. And that is, to a large extent, I think, I don't want to come back to climate change again, but I will. It is part of that idea that losing track of the circularity of time is one of those fundamental assumptions that has not helped our relationship with ecology, I think, because ecology is all about circles.
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A
Yeah. And we can think about the circularity as an era or a season or as, you know.
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C
Yeah, yes. And connecting this to the zodiac is quite important. Well, I think it's interesting because Hipparchus in 150 BC changed the way Western astrology thought, which was previously he noticed from his historic records, from observations of the stars and planets from Mesopotamia and Egypt, he noticed the procession of the equinoxes, which means that every 200 years they shift by about three days. Now, we don't notice in our lives because that's one day in 70 years. We're not really going to Notice it. But his shift tied the zodiac to the seasons. And from 150 BC onwards in the west, the seasons became the way in which we saw life, which is much more about the immediate cycles rather than the long term cycles. And so you can understand that in terms of agriculture and how that relates to our understanding of time. It shrinks it from the previous version, sidereal astrology, but it makes it much more linked to the stuff we see, like plants growing and the like.
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A
So for our listeners who haven't yet had the pleasure of reading the book, let's talk a little bit more about these. Let's just define these. So we have our seasons, spring, summer, autumn, winter, that are linked to the relationship of the Earth and the sun, and they're marked by solstices and equinoxes. Can you just tell our readers what these are, our listeners, what these are?
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C
Well, I start the book in April because April is when Chaucer started his book. And I see the book as a journey. So I'm treating the year as a journey. The journey is divided in four, as you say, the four seasons, each of which is marked by a cosmic event. The longest day, the shortest day, the days which are equal, day and nights equal, and either increasing light or decreasing light. So these things are set. That's what Hipparchus took as his kind of baseline. I saw that as a journey. The journey can be a circular journey, or you can also see it as a straight line journey. So I'm just basically looking at each 12 months, one month per chapter, divided into the three, sorry, the four seasons, by a beginning, a middle and an end of each season. So it is like traditional storytelling. So each month is. Sorry, each season has a beginning, middle and an end. So I'm doing that in order to. The order starts from spring, because that's when, as I said, Chaucer starts. But it's also when life seems to wake up. And it has an interesting narrative trajectory if you start then, because then you end with the end of winter when everything seems dead. So the book is kind of trying to create a frame story narrative out of beginning, middle and end. Of four subsections.
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A
We weave in these seasons that we can understand through the zodiac or the position of the stars.
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C
Well, our primary understanding of them is obviously, well, in the spring, it's full of hope because we see new life arising. In the summer, it's kind of relaxing, in fact. The Dog Days, which is when Sirius, the dog star is in the sky at the same time as the sun is when it's too hot to do anything. So it is actually a time to be relaxed. And in the autumn is a time of being contented if you've had a good harvest or full of trepidation if you've had a hard harvest, you know, not a good harvest. And then the winter is a time of hardship where you look forward to the return of the hope of spring. So those are our. It is very psychological. If your food security is not good, which is most cultures, then that's your primary. Your primary experience. Rather than the stars, it just happens to be linked to the movement of the sun, the moon, and where they are relative to the fixed stars. So I'm trying to have an empathetic approach to life in a world where food security is not good and where you do need to know and you are psychologically influenced by how the seasons are changing.
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A
And I mean, and there are so many clues of how we're meant to, as organisms react. Right. The activity of the spring and the fall and the hibernation of winter.
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C
Yes. And we think we're distant from that, but we're not. I mean, flu is a seasonal phenomena, and a quarter of all our genes actually change their behavior through the year, and nobody knows why. So we are hardwired to the seasons, even if we kind of insulate ourselves from them to the extent we can.
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A
Yeah. And it seems, I have this interest, like the way we are thinking about time and the way we mark our progression. You know, the Western calendar starts on January 1, about 10 days after the solstice. And we all recognize this as the date, but simultaneously recognize that it makes sense to mark the beginning of the natural year, of the spring. And this is an incongruity that I've never really thought to explore before. So I really enjoyed that. But thinking about all these, there are just so many ways to look at the world around us and our position in it.
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C
And I think you're absolutely right. And I think that's actually a motivator for all of the books that I've written. They don't fit in genres particularly well because they are different ways of looking. And we do have an academic way of looking in the humanities. We've got a scientific way of looking. And these are not the only ways of looking. So in a way, what I'm doing is a kind of anthropological. Take anthropology, we usually think of as something that is applied to people who live in jungles or somewhere you know, very distant from our own lives. But I'm looking at the anthropology of our European roots, Western roots. And it's full of incongruities and paradoxes. And rather than try and gloss over them, which is what we do, like you say there are two start dates to the year officially, and I write the book according to one of those. But I acknowledge both of them. Them and also acknowledge that you might want to start reading the book, actually, at the time. If you buy the book now, then you might want to start reading it on chapter, I don't know, seven or eight or whatever it is. Because this is a cyclic thing. You can start somewhere. And that's why it's an interesting thing to try and write a narrative of.
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A
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, speaking of incongruities as well, or things we consider incongruous, is this idea that we're linking astronomy, the stars and ecology and which seem like God bedfellows. But, you know, I think this comes from the idea that we're so married to the idea that science and reason are antithetical to faith and belief. And this is not. This is something that you really take on with this book as well.
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C
Yes, I think it's one of the most important things that as a scientist who has worked for most of my career in the humanities, I worked on altarpieces, medieval altarpieces. I was extremely lucky to work on very good works of art. And I looked at them as a scientist, but I knew that they were created for a devotional purpose. And this idea that science and religion are divorced is deeply unhelpful. It's a very modern idea. It's a 19th century bit of politics that we have not yet come to grips with. And so what I'm trying to do is exactly that. Deal with it not in an aggressive way, but in a. Well, here are some interesting things to think about.
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A
Yeah, thanks, Kant. But you've got a lot to answer for there. So let's go through the first portion of the book, and we'll start with the spring, with Aries the ram, a fire sign, the first sign of the zodiac. So I think I know the answer. But why do you choose to begin here? Because of the spring and the hopefulness.
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C
Yes, but there's a. Because it's always nice, you know, that's. Emotionally, you don't want to. I don't want to give the reader a hard time. I want the reader to enjoy whatever it is that I'm trying to write. And so you start with hope. But the other thing about that is that. That you mention it's a Fire sign. The very interesting thing for me, because of my knowledge of Aristotle and Empedocles and the Presocratic philosophers who actually formed the basis of science as it's practiced in the West. I mean, it's not acknowledged in modern science, but modern science owes a lot to medieval science, and medieval science owes a lot through the Arab world to classical science. So there are common threads going through there. And what we call the four Aristotelian elements, fire, air, water and earth. They are the four ways of looking at or the four ways of being in the world. They're not elemental building blocks, the way modern elements are. They are ways of being. So we've got those four different ways of being. And those four different ways of being can be at the beginning, the middle, or the end of a story for each of the seasons. It just happens that Aries kicks off the season with fire. But then fire will be in the middle of the story of, of the summer and the end of the story about autumn, fall. So if you take that Aristotelian approach, fire being the transformative element or the element of transformation, you not only start in a very logical place, a very hopeful place in the logical place, but you also mean that you're starting when the amount of light is increasing, day length is increasing, and that way we come to a maximum in the middle of the book, which is the summer solstice. And then you start declining into the.
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A
The.
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C
Into winter. And it divides the book very nicely for me into the first half, which is light, and the second half, which is darkness. In the Christian world, we have a very big emphasis on light, and the dark side is kind of, you know, not dealt with or is the bad guys. But within a circular view of nature, the light and the dark are equally necessary. So I go in the book from the light to the dark. And another thing with the books that I've written is that I do want the reader to enjoy the book, but I also, in maybe a counterproductive way, don't tell them where it's going. So you end up in the dark side. But if the reader has managed to survive six chapters, then they're probably ready for it. But if I started there, it would be a bit of a shock. So that's one of the reasons for starting with Aries.
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A
What happens in this time period, mid March to mid April in the natural world? Well.
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C
It'S when the example that I use to actually start it because we're focusing a lot here on the more philosophical side and the more historical side which provides the backbone for the book. But to be honest, there's an equal amount of modern ecology that is the kind of meat that goes on the bones of the zodiac. And the example that I use for spring is an example that is from North America. Most of my examples are actually from Europe, but this was how maple syrup is collected and why maple syrup happens. What is the tree doing with that syrup and how do people know what or squirrels, whoever wants to eat it if it's leaking out of the tree. So there's the ecology of the way in which the tree wakes up from its slumber through winter and at the end of the book. There's a thing about the preparation that the tree undergoes in order to wake up, the kind of pre waking up, which is how does it allow the SAP to rise? And this is all modern physics, modern biology, modern ecology. But as much as possible, I do recognize and acknowledge the historic people who are working on this. So an 18th century clergyman, for example, understood the way in which the tree wakes up internally. So that's all hidden. That's what I mean, by the dark side in winter. But in spring is when those activities suddenly become evident to you. So maple syrup production is part of the evidence of the tree having woken up.
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A
And it's the season of daffodils, that May of lambs.
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C
Exactly. I mean, it's all very great, hopeful, joyful stuff. I mean, lambs, gambling, lambs are deeply heartwarming.
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A
Yeah. You have trouble as a human being if the sight of a lamb kind of trying to walk doesn't cheer you.
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C
Exactly, exactly. And so that's why I start the book there.
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A
Well, because then we move really naturally to Taurus, April to May, which is not as tentative a time.
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C
No, it's when things have become established. The whole point about Aries is it is conflict. It kicks in when day and night are of equal length. Day seems to be winning the battle, but it's still a battle. There are false springs, there are plants and animals that are born too early and are killed by frost. And this is part of the nature of fire. It's something you can harness, but it's something that can burn you. So when we move to Taurus, we've actually moved into an earth sign. And earth is solidity and stability. In the Aristotelian idea of the four elements, it is more reliable. So you're quite right. It kind of settles down, it beds down, it consolidates. And it is a time of enormous beauty. That's when we've moved on from daffodils, which are kind of assertive. And we have all sorts of different flowers in May, in Taurus.
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A
Yeah. And spring is definitely, you know, it's made it to the stoop, it's on its way. And this is the time of the bull, the God Venus. And what do they bring us?
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C
Well, Venus brings beauty. That's the obvious thing. And the bull is just a bigger version of a ram. You know, they're both herbivores, they're both horned. But in many cultures, the bull is worshipped in itself. The ram tends not to be. I mean, it is in Egypt, ancient Egypt. But if we're looking at Europe, there is still bullfighting in Spain. You know, it's a ritual activity. So it's kind of recognized, widely recognized. What does Venus bring? Venus bring beauty. But I've outlined in the book that there are four seasons, each of which has a beginning, a middle and an end. Each of those is determined by the behavior of an element. So Earth being the central. The middle of the story of spring is about security. But there are also planets that are involved. And most of the planets pop up twice. The sun and moon only pop up once, and Venus pops up twice. And it is about beauty and love. And that's what Taurus is. But Venus also is later in the year in the dark side of the year. And so we see a different side to Venus there. It's not all kind of lovely, lovely. It's actually tough love in the second half of the year. So it's those themes that are running through. And each time I use that, I try and see how ecologically tough love might show itself. And that's partly in the detritus. We think of the food cycles and the grazing food cycle, which is obvious to us. You know, animals, herbivores eating grass, carnivores eating herbivores. This is a grazing pathway. There's also the detrital pathway, which is much less obvious, but is equally important. It is how do dead bodies get broken down in order to release nutrients for other living bodies? And so that's the other side of Venus.
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A
And then let's finish at our season here. It's in your third chapter, Gemini, the twins, an air sign that runs from May to June. And the Gemini twins represent relationships, the connections that link seeming opposite. It's. Yeah.
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C
And I think this is something I'm very pleased to have, a traditional symbol, if you like, to allow me to play with these ideas. Because the idea of modern science and ecology is not obviously connected to the zodiac and the four elements, but there is a relationship between them.
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A
And.
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C
And that's what I'm trying to explore in the book is relationships between things that you do not think are related.
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A
Yeah. I would like to talk about murmuration.
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C
Murmuration is. I mean, it's another beautiful thing, but it's extraordinarily complicated, and there are different ways of looking at it. And I was reading. I mean, I took this because I thought, what can I use in the natural world to try and engage a story? And murmuration is a fantastic thing to watch. If you haven't watched starlings in the air, I mean, they are just Lovely. And their behavior actually is not limited. That behavior is not limited to starlings. It's also shoals of fish do it. But I picked on starlings for Gemini because it's an air sign, and it's a activity that we see in the air. And actually, I looked at, well, what is modern science made of murmuration? And I found a surprising number of articles in computer, in the context of computing, about how autonomous entities interact with each other. I mean, I live in a city which is now full of experimental autonomous vehicles, so I have to not try and crash into a driverless bus. And all of the thinking behind making an autonomous vehicle is drawing on what is known of the world. And starlings are, or each one is autonomous. They move as they want to. So how do tens of thousands of individual birds, using their own free will, create a collective work of art, a dance? And the answer is they actually only watch their seven neighbors and move close to a kind of average of those seven neighbors. And in the background, they know there's a dark patch over there that's probably the center of the flock, and a light patch over there that's probably the sky. And using these very, very, very simple information, simple rules, they are taking information and creating something with it. Now, we might look at that in terms of computer science and algorithms and the like, but the way a person guided by the zodiac would look at it is that you mentioned that Venus ruled Taurus or was one of the signs that Venus ruled. The sign of Gemini is ruled by Mercury. And so we have an air sign and a God of communication, a messenger God. And so we have in the murmuration a kind of example of communication through the air. And that's what Gemini is. Gemini. The bad side of that for humans is that's when you get hay fever, when the hay fever season kicks in, because, again, that's communication through the air. This time, it's plants communicating with each other and releasing pollen. And if you happen to be allergic to it, well, that's bad news. It's collateral damage. But what's happening is communication through the air.
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A
And this brings us to what you call your first interlude, the summer solstice. The longest day and the shortest night of the year. What's the symbolic importance here for this story of the solstice of our first interlude?
- [37:22]
C
Well, I suppose it's a break. And if we are thinking of time flowing, which we do, I mean, it's very nice. You've allowed me to talk through spring, which has got a beginning, a middle, and an End. The beginning is fire, the middle is Earth, the end is air. But actually the difference between the end of January and the beginning of February is there's nothing to hang onto. But a solstice is something to hang onto. It is a very, very special day. It's when the sun has moved as far as it's going to move up the horizon and it stops and then it turns around. So it's a kind of anchor in a frame story which is circular, which has no beginning and no end. It's something to anchor you with to so listeners.
- [38:21]
A
The book continues, so exploring each of the seasons through their three zodiacal. Zodiacal, yeah. Signs. No, no, sure. Playing with ideas that, you know, you might call science or nature or religion or fancy the something that's poetry, you know, so it continues. So. And I encourage you to read it. But let's. For this interview, I'd like to take a quick stop at the final chapter. It's almost a coda called Next Year. And you assert, quote, I'm quoting here, it's probably safe to say that next year the qualities of time and rhythms of nature will be similar to last year's, yet there will also be real differences, precisely because life on Earth supports science, many possibilities. And I unquote, I love this. And we see here. One of the things that I read is a takeaway from this. There are so many ways to understand our world and to weave it together. And do you have a comment there? Is there. Is that a good takeaway?
- [39:19]
C
Absolutely. It's the best takeaway. Thank you very much. It's what I want. And if you're quite right that it doesn't fit into a genre, that's because there are so many different ways of looking at things. And what I've tried to do in this book is to be equally respectful to different ways of looking, not say, oh, modern science says this and those people said that, and this one's right and that one's wrong. But they are both equally valid ways of looking. They have different premises, they have different assumptions, they have different axioms. But if they are taken as consistent, coherent way ways of thinking, which they were. Otherwise we're saying that people like Thomas Aquinas was stupid, which I absolutely do not believe, or Ptolemy was stupid, you know, they're not. These are highly intelligent people. And also the ecologists and the computer scientists who've worked out what starlings do, they're equally intelligent. So I've tried to look at different ways of looking at things, things with equal degrees of respect and see, how can these different ways of seeing things coexist?
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A
Yeah, I mean, they're just as we weave together our lives as individuals and societies, just organisms. And like, on this civilization level, we just really don't have to be limited by any particular school of thought. We can incorporate them all.
- [40:49]
C
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, there is a danger there of a kind of pluralism where it all doesn't really matter. And that's certainly not something I want to suggest. I want to suggest that there are rigorous ways in which you can acknowledge truths that are arrived at with different methodologies.
- [41:17]
A
Right. Okay, I've taken up enough of your time. So I just have one more question which I think is probably silly, but I just have to know, is there a particular season or time with which you feel an affinity? Do you have a favorite month or a favorite season?
- [41:35]
C
This sounds like a cop out, so I apologize, but I'm trying to see what is it that is offered by each. So I would have said, because I was kind of, oh, maybe summer, maybe spring, maybe autumn, but winter did not come to mind. So I think, okay, well, that shows me a weakness in my perception because winter has something to offer. So what is it? And actually, there's a quote in the book from Beowulf because I'm trying to collect data from everywhere to sound bad. But a king who is describing power to a younger person talks about wintering into wisdom that winter is actually a difficult time, but transformation happens in the dark. And so winter did not spring to my mind when you asked me what my favorite season was. But maybe it should, because there is something hidden there that is powerful that I need to appreciate more.
- [42:49]
A
Very nice. All right, thank you so much for talking to me today, Spike Bucklow listeners, I encourage you to buy this book. There'll be a link to bookshop.org on our website or just go look it up. It is the year out with reaction. Spike, thanks very much.
- [43:08]
C
No, it's a great pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you.
- [43:11]
A
Ciao.
- [43:24]
D
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