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Stephanie Dray and Laura Kamoie, "A Founding Mother: A Novel of Abigail Adams" (William Morrow, 2026)
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- [00:00]
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- [01:08]
Laura Kamoy
what they did to your family. You're lucky to make it out alive. Streaming on Peacock.
- [01:13]
C.P. Leslie
These men are going to come after me.
- [01:15]
Laura Kamoy
Taking them out is my only chance.
- [01:17]
C.P. Leslie
Put a bullet in their head.
- [01:19]
Laura Kamoy
From the co creator of Ozark. Looks like a family was running drugs execution style.
- [01:24]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Killing it's rare for the Keys.
- [01:26]
Laura Kamoy
Any leads on who they might have been running for? The cartel killed my family. I'm gonna kill them. All of them. MIA Streaming now only on Peacock.
- [01:37]
C.P. Leslie
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- [02:06]
Laura Kamoy
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [02:10]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Hello everyone. I'm C.P.
- [02:11]
C.P. Leslie
leslie, the host of New Books and Historical Fiction, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. Today I'm speaking with Laura Kamoy about A Founding Mother, a novel of Abigail Adams, co written with Stephanie Dray, who was not able to join us for the interview. I have admired Abigail Adams for many years. She always seemed to have the strongest and most interesting personality among the early first ladies. But in reading this novel, I soon realized I knew much less than I'd thought about both her and her family, including her husband and eldest son, both of whom served as presidents of the United States. The novel begins, though, much later in her life. Quincy, Massachusetts. August, 1814. Was it all? For naught, mine has been a life spent bleeding, starving, fighting, and straining to bring six children and a new nation into being. At nearly 70 years of age, every bone and sinew in my body is exhausted by the struggle. My hair is white, my back bent by time, my hands and knees stiff with pain. And as I dig in the dirt to plant a rosemary bush of remembrance by the family tomb, I'm reminded by the mocking song of the cicadas that four of my six children are dead, the other two are lost to me, and our nation's capital is under attack. And now please join me in welcoming Laura Kamoy.
- [03:29]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Hi, Laura. I look forward to talking with you today.
- [03:31]
Laura Kamoy
Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.
- [03:33]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Carolyn, before we talk about your most recent novel, please tell us about your writing career up to this point. What should we know about your previous books?
- [03:40]
Laura Kamoy
Well, this is the fourth historical novel that I've written. Most of them have been co authored with my fantastic good friend Stephanie Dray. And historical fiction was actually my second fiction career. I began writing fiction under the pen name Laura Kay, writing romance and suspense. And my first novel was published in 2011.
- [04:09]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
And what was that about?
- [04:10]
Laura Kamoy
My first novel was actually a vampire romance. I grew up reading a lot of Stephen King and Anne Rice and grew up in a family that believed in ghost stories. And all of us would gather around my grandmother's kitchen table on Friday nights and talk about whatever strange things the ghosts in our various houses had done. And so I had a first love of paranormal and supernatural stories after the
- [04:43]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
scene I read in my introduction. Your novel goes back to 1765. What made that the natural place to start your story?
- [04:49]
Laura Kamoy
Well, a Founding Mother is really a story about Abigail Adams as a mother and a founding mother, and so going to the beginning of her young married life when she is pregnant with her first child and the beginning of the conflict with Britain is. Is happening, really put her at the beginning of both of those trains of narrative of her as a mother and a founding mother.
- [05:27]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Abigail is, as one would expect, the heart of the story. How would you describe her at this relatively early point in her life? What does she expect? Or perhaps Hope her life to become.
- [05:37]
Laura Kamoy
I think she really hopes to become a good mother to many children and a useful partner to her husband. She wants to have the type of marriage where she will be treated with respect and her ideas will be listened to. And they do have that really from the beginning of their relationship. It was the. One of the things that drew her to John was the way he treated her, the way he listened to her, the way he respected her. And she wanted to have a partnership with her husband, and she did. And she wanted to build a good life for her family and for her community. And so at that moment in 1765, she is hopeful. She is full of plans for her family's future. And the Revolutionary War is about to interrupt all of that.
- [06:38]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
John Adams is one of several people in this novel who frankly seems to have been ill served by the traditional historical narrative. What should we know about him as a person that we probably haven't heard before?
- [06:49]
Laura Kamoy
Yes, John Adams is. Is famously a cantankerous, grouchy, sometimes petty individual. And. And those things are true, but that's not all of John Adams. John Adams was incredibly intelligent and thoughtful about what this country needed to do vis a vis Britain and then toward its independence. He was very self aware of his own strengths and weaknesses, which is why when he was assigned to the committee to draft the Declaration of Independence with Thomas Jefferson and several others, he strongly encouraged Thomas Jefferson to be the author because he knew his own style of writing was not as well suited as Jefferson's was. He was extremely loyal to his friends and family. He expected the same from others. And he was an ardent patriot and always had the best interests of the new nation at heart. And so I think that a lot of people have heard the cantankerous side, but maybe not as much of the ardent patriot and loyal friend side.
- [08:18]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
It is a little ironic that as we speak, the King of England is in the country, isn't is?
- [08:24]
Laura Kamoy
Actually, I saw the pictures and I was thinking specifically about the Adams and the way they fretted over their time in England, worrying that the King might hold a grudge against the Adams.
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Interviewer (Carolyn)
The marriage between John and Abigail is a genuine love match, but it is severely tested by the demands placed on John's time by the revolution. Could you talk about some of those demands and how Abigail copes with them?
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Laura Kamoy
Yeah. This was one of the things that made us decide that Abigail Adams really deserved her own book. Because they are separated for a total of about 12 years of their early marriage because of John's various committees and Congresses and other appointments that he had. He served on the Continental Congress, of which there were several. So there were a number of backs and forth to Philadelphia, and he was appointed to be a part of the committee to draft the Declaration of Independence. And then he received various other diplomatic appointments that not only took him away from Massachusetts, but had him leave the country altogether to go over to Europe. And so Abigail is left for all of that time raising a very young family amid war in her very neighborhood, amid outbreaks of various diseases and epidemics, amid pretty difficult economic times. And she really rises to the challenge, and in the most surprising way that she does, that is she becomes a true entrepreneur. She begins to import goods that are in short supply and sell them and enlist other ladies to sell them. She ultimately works with her cousin to purchase land and make investments, things that were very unusual for women to do at the time. And all of those activities make it so that the Adams emerge from the Revolutionary War on pretty strong financial footing when a lot of other families had been harmed or even ruined by the war.
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Interviewer (Carolyn)
Yes, that was one of the many things I didn't know about her. Even though I've always admired her. I found that entrepreneurial part of her history really interesting.
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Laura Kamoy
Yes. And so unusual for women at the time, or at least we think so. I mean, one of the challenges of writing women's history in general, of course, is a preservation challenge, which is to say that their letters and records and account books and the like have not survived with the same amount that men's records and letters have survived. So she seems to be fairly unique in the things that she's doing. But she was very concerned, really, from the younger part of their marriage with the idea of women having true independence. And she knew, what we all know now is that required financial independence as well.
- [11:38]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Although one thing that many people know about Abigail Adams is that she spoke out on behalf of women. Your novel makes it clear that her views were challenged even within her own household. In brief, John is not convinced. How does that affect them as a couple?
- [11:52]
Laura Kamoy
So we're of two minds about this, and particularly with his response to her famous Remember the ladies letter from 1776. On the one hand, she's disappointed that he doesn't take her as seriously as she intends to be taken with her idea. Lots of people know the remember the ladies part of the quote, but they may not be as familiar with what she says afterwards, which is, do not place too much power into the hands of husbands who have historically been tyrants. And that ladies, if not listened to, are determined to foment a revolution and will not be beholden to any laws in which they've had no voice or representation. A pretty radical take. And so, you know, John doesn't really take her as seriously as she intends, and that is disappointing to her. But you also have to read that letter in a slightly different context as well, and that is they were constantly tweaking and teasing one another. She did it to him as well. And so it's a little hard to know if he was trying to rile her up a little bit in his teasing back or if he truly did not agree with her opinion on ladies rights, women's rights. And so we played the disappointment, even though there's lots of teasing and humor in their relationship in the book, as there was in real life, because there are a number of places, especially as the distance grows between them physically, where. Because he's not there, because he can't see her look on her face or hear the tone in her voice, where he doesn't really understand just how important some things are to her.
- [13:52]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Yeah, I think it might be useful for listeners just to go into some of the constraints, both the constraints that women faced at the time because they really had no rights if they were married in many ways, and also the physical constraints based imposed on John and Abigail by the distance. Because, I mean, I think probably everybody knows that in the 17th century you couldn't pick up, or the 18th century, rather, you couldn't pick up a cell phone and call somebody. But even something as basic as a post was extremely unreliable in the period of the revolution.
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Laura Kamoy
Yes, for sure. Well, let's start first with women's rights. In this period, women were, for the most part, under something called coverture, which meant that their rights were covered by their fathers before they were married and by their husbands once they were married. So your sort of role, your rights, your position transferred from what your father could give you to what your husband could give you. And then once you were married, the actual rights that you had, freedom of movement, freedom to spend money, freedom to, you know, meet with other people, freedom to make decisions around the household or the estate. All of those really were determined by what your husband would allow. And in this, Abigail very much lucked out because John was a very generous husband. And as I said, they really did have a partnership based on love and respect. But this is why, really, the single most important decision that a woman could make in the 18th century was the choice of her husband, because everything about her life after that was going to be dictated by that one decision. And then in terms of the communication challenges that happened once they were separated, especially once he was overseas, they were several fold. First of all, she always had to be very careful what she talked about in her correspondence in case her letters were intercepted. So she could never say anything that might give away important information or intelligence of any kind to the British. And then once he was overseas, the second challenge was that ships were very often either intercepted by the enemy or sunken, either in battle or because of poor weather. And so, you know, she might send five letters and two might actually reach him. So, you know, there were these long periods of time where she might not actually get anything in the post. And she had to wonder was that because he hadn't written or because his letters had been lost along the way? And that was really difficult because it would take several months from the time you dropped a letter in the post until it arrived at its destination, if it arrived at all.
- [17:14]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Yes, it's hard to even imagine that. So both during and after the revolution, John Adams, several of his sons, and later Abigail as well, spent years abroad, mostly in France, but as you mentioned, also in Britain and in John Quincy Adams case, Catherine in Russia. What can you tell us about that?
- [17:32]
Laura Kamoy
Yeah, they were one of the best traveled families of this era, to be sure. And Abigail was one of the best traveled women. The international travel, I think, for all of them really gave them a point of comparison. You know, when, when Abigail arrives to the French court and sees the luxury and the decadence and the class hierarchy and, and, and all of that, you know, it really helps to cement her own beliefs in the, the sort of democratic republican style that they're fashioning with the new nation back at home. And, and then when they go to Britain and there's a funny scene in the book which was really a joy to include because I'm a big fan of the, the Bridgerton spinoff of Queen Charlotte. There's a scene where Abigail and John are at this ball or party and nobody can leave until the Queen leaves. And Abigail is ready to go and she's annoyed that she has to wait for, you know, the Queen to sort of make her rounds before you can leave. And as two very strong minded and opinionated women, they don't hit it off the best. And of course, John's role in the independence movement was part of that as well. And so it really was like a touchstone against which they could measure what they thought, the rightness of what they were doing at home. And then in terms of John Quincy Adams. Both Abigail and her husband John were very determined that John Quincy would also make a name for himself as a lawyer and as a politician. And so his apprenticeship as a diplomat beginning. She first sent him abroad at the age of 12. Which was not an easy decision for her to make really was his parents putting their faith and their trust in him to be mature enough to handle the situation, to learn what he needed to learn and to make use of it as he, as he grew older. And he did that very, very much and very well. And you know, this is what ultimately makes Abigail an advisor to two presidents, won her husband and ultimately won her son. Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney. Let's go get ready for a new case. We're gonna crack this case and prove we're the greatest partners of all time. New friends you are Gary Destiny and your last name Desnake Dream team Hidden new habitats. Zootopia has a secret reptile population. You can watch the record breaking finale phenomenon at home. You're clearly working it. Zootopia 2 now available on Disney Plus. Rated PG now at McDonald's. A McDouble is 250 so you can get your gym gains on or just get lunch for only 250. Get more value on the under three dollar menu. Limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.
- [21:24]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Another surprising to me element of the story was the long friendship between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, whom we're trained to think of as enemies and which they were at some points in their lives, but not for all of it. What should listen to know about that relationship?
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Laura Kamoy
You know John Adams and Thomas Jefferson first met at the continental Congress in 1776. And at that point all the, all the men who were at the Continental Congress for the most part, some had to be brought along a little at the end. But they were all of a like mind which was the way that Britain was treating them was not fair and not just. And that independence was the only path forward. They worked very closely together to get certain provisions into the founding documents. They worked very close together to help convince some of the holdouts to change their mind and to support independence. John was the force behind encouraging Thomas Jefferson to be the leading drafter of the Declaration. So they were very much of like mind, and they formed a very close friendship. And then when Abigail had the chance to meet Thomas Jefferson for herself, she was very taken with him. He was exceedingly charming, incredibly intelligent, just an absolute delight of a conversationalist. And they became very close friends. And then when they were all in France together, that all deepened. But when they returned home, there was now a different situation. And that was a new government had been founded with certain privilege, certain privileges granted to citizens, other privileges granted to the government, with certain provisions about how everything would work. And out of those
- [23:29]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
new.
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Laura Kamoy
Out of that new government came people who had differing views of what was good about it and what was bad. And that was the origin of the first political parties. And as those political parties grew and formed and took on positions, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson found themselves on opposite sides. And at first, they were able to work through that somewhat amicably. But as partisanship deepened and became more rancorous, and as the two men constantly ended up on opposite sides of the issues, first in Washington's cabinet and then going forward, that friendship began to fall apart, including with Abigail. And it wasn't until the. Towards the end of their lives in the 1820s, that they managed to find their way back to each other. And I really think this is because by the 1820s, it's been almost 50 years since 1776. There aren't a lot of the founding mothers and fathers who are still alive. And of course, they had been through this incredibly unique and compelling and unifying experience of founding this new nation. And, and it was experience that not many other people had. And I think that's what brought them back together, that there weren't many people left who had had the experience that. That they had. And of course, then they very famously die within hours of each other on July 4, 1826, which was the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.
- [25:16]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Yes, right, that's exactly. So one of the interesting elements that just comes up in passing is that they really were inventing everything from scratch. So there were all these debates about what you should. How you should address the president, for example.
- [25:33]
Laura Kamoy
Yeah, I mean, you know, they drew a lot of their inspiration from. From Roman philosophers and the Enlightenment philosophers in terms of the. The big ideas that shaped the government, things like balance of powers, and, and that there were certain inherent inalienable rights. But that's the big ideas. That's the structure. That's not the day to day of how the government operates. And all of that had to be created from scratch. And so something as small as what do you call the president, what honorific does that person be given created huge political conflict because, you know, Washington was often called your excellency, but that was objected to by many as feeling too monarchical. And so, you know, ultimately they settle on Mr. President, but it takes a while. And anybody who supported something that sounded at all too monarchical would then be publicly accused of being a monarchist. He wants to take us back. He wants to go back to what we used to have. He's an enemy of our new democratic republic. And so these kinds of things spiraled very quickly. But it makes a certain sort of sense because while it seems small, the symbolic significance of what you call the leader of this new government is vitally important to who we are as a country. And so all of that had to be worked out. And it was often quite contentious among the founding fathers.
- [27:23]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Alexander Hamilton doesn't come off too well in this book. Do you say a bit about him and his wife Eliza? And if you'd like to bring in your previous novel about Eliza, that would be great.
- [27:33]
Laura Kamoy
So Stephanie and I often joke that we wrote our novels in the correct order because our first novel together was America's First Daughter. It was about Patsy Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson's eldest daughter. And of course, though, you know, there are some critical perspectives on Jefferson in that book, it is written through his daughter's eyes. So, of course, mostly she is. She idolizes her father. So it's a fairly generous take towards Jefferson. Then we wrote, and in America's first daughter, Alexander Hamilton, the Hamiltons play a very small role because he's really not very important to Jefferson. Then we wrote My dear Hamilton about Eliza Schuyler Hamilton, the wife of Alexander. And in the Hamilton's world, Jefferson looms large as the big potentially evil force because they are afraid that he is so radical that he's going to institute in the United States the. The kind of reign of terrorists that saw 50,000 noblemen be killed in France during the French Revolution. And if he does, they would be on the chopping block. And then, of course, we write a Founding mother about the Adamses. And in Founding Mother, not only do they not like Alexander Hamilton's arrogance and pushiness and ambitiousness, they also, you know, had this complicated relationship with Jefferson that we just talked about. So we always joke that we wrote them in the right order, because if we had written them in any other order, it might have been harder to come to that more positive perspective of Jefferson that we had through Patsy's Eyes in terms of their take on Alexander in the Addams novel. You know, Alexander is. Alexander is a complicated character because he is incredibly smart in all ways intellectual. He's an incredible strategist, but he often strategizes so much that he does it to his own detriment, and he ends up burning a lot of bridges all around him. And his wife, Eliza, often tries to go behind him and smooth those things out, and she's pretty good at doing that, but it often puts her in the difficult position of having to rebuild those bridges. And so in A Founding Mother, Abigail finds herself, you know, feeling kind of sorry that Eliza always has to clean Alexander's messes up. And she also feels pretty irritated by Alexander most of the time because of his brashness and his ambition and the people he's willing to sort of push aside to get ahead. And, of course, Alexander and John have their own fraught relationship, because even though they're both on the same side politically, you know, they're both sort of vying for George Washington's attention and patronage, and that competition puts them in a challenging position in terms of their relationship. So it's fun for us because we get to see all of these characters through different perspectives and different eyes, and we like to be able to sort of depict them in these different ways. And really, it ends up sort of rounding out the whole group of these people because they were all in one another's orbits. So even though the stories in each of these novels is substantially different, it's sort of coming at a similar story from different angles.
- [31:46]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Yes, that's right. I mean, they really were a group. We talked a little bit about John Quincy Adams, but Abigail actually had many children, as you mentioned right at the beginning, especially her daughter Navi plays a big role in the novel. What would you like listeners to know about Abigail's other children?
- [32:06]
Laura Kamoy
Yes, so she had six pregnancies in total. Two of the children, one was stillborn, and one died of an illness at the age of two. She had four who lived to adulthood. One daughter, Nabi, who was also named Abigail Adams, and three sons. And she was very close to all of the children. She very much prioritized education, getting an education for all of the children. In fact, she sent all of them away at different points to people that she felt might be better suited to provide for their educations. In terms of Nabby, in particular, as the oldest, she was probably her mother's most constant companion, especially during those years when. When John was away. And as the oldest, she could Help take care of the younger children. She could help more around the farm when they were needing to put things up for the winter and what have you. One of the things that's really sort of significant to me is Stephanie and I often joke about the way that books, the books that we're working on in our real lives will intersect or things that we guessed at in the novel. We'll later find research materials that support our guess was correct. And in this case, one of those moments was the fact that Nabi Adams, as a grownup, very famously is diagnosed with breast cancer and ultimately has one of the first mastectomy surgeries that was performed in the United States. And that is recounted in the book. And the reason why that is so poignant or sort of, you know, intersected with real life is that while we were working on this book, I was also diagnosed with breast cancer. And I had a double mastectomy surgery to treat it. And I'm doing great now. That was 18 months ago. But it changed our writing process for this book because Stephanie then had to do most of the drafting. And then I came in doing a lot of the revision work and which is just. We've. Our process of co writing has changed with each of the books. Sometimes we've drafted back to back chapters and then traded them and revised freely, or we've chosen bigger chunks and drafted and then revised. In this case, because of my illness, Stephanie ended up drafting a lot of it and then I did a lot of the revision work. So, you know, Nabi's story intersected with my real life. And it's just another way in which the book is very important to me and I feel very fond of it for that reason.
- [35:17]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
I'm so sorry to hear that you had to go through that, and I'm glad that you're feeling better now. What would you like people to take away from a founding mother?
- [35:24]
Laura Kamoy
I think the biggest thing that I'd like people to take away from it is that the people of the founding generation were just ordinary people. Some were men, some were women, some were free, some were enslaved, some were wealthy, some were not. Some were educated, some were not very educated. They were ordinary people, but they fought, they were of service, they made sacrifices to bring this new nation to life. And when they did so, they. They use this particular phrase that they're trying to form a more perfect union. It wasn't perfect then. They knew that significant compromises, particularly with the institution of slavery, had been made to get everybody to agree to a union. Never been perfect. Since. But each generation has had to continue that fight that they started to make a more perfect union. And so I think one of the things that I want people to take away from this book and from all of our books, really, is that that legacy has been handed down to us. Things may not be perfect right now. They never have been. But ordinary people, just like me, just like you, just like all of us, it's our job now to fight and be of service and make sacrifices to make it more like the perfect union we would ultimately love to see. And that's the thing about the kind of government we have. It is a participatory experiment. It's not. It's not an engine that just keeps chugging along on its own. And so we hope that people can see like Abigail was for all intents and purposes, for years she was a single mother raising little kids without a lot of money or resources or support. And yet she still did all these things. And that legacy has been handed down to all of us. And now it's our turn.
- [37:38]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
This novel is just about to come out. Are you already working on something new?
- [37:43]
Laura Kamoy
Yes. Stephanie and I are both working on solo projects and we are in the conversation stage with our editor for our next joint founding mother book. So I can't share a topic just yet because it hasn't been 100% nailed down with our publisher, but my solo novel is tentatively called Churchill's Spy Mistress. It's about an immigrant woman in Britain named Vera Atkins who rose to the position of significant authority within Britain's Special Operations Executive, which trained agents to go into the occupied parts of Europe to set up resistance networks. And in my case, I'm focusing on two women who parachuted into France. So I'm just about done drafting that. Stephanie is also working on a World War II set solo novel in Italy. And I'll just say that it involves pasta and leave the rest to that, but it is just a delightful idea. And once we both get done with those, we'll be turning to our next founding novel. Founding Mother novel.
- [38:57]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Anything that just involves pastas. Absolutely. That's wonderful.
- [39:01]
Laura Kamoy
Right? Who doesn't like pasta? It's going to be.
- [39:05]
Interviewer (Carolyn)
Thank you so much for sharing your time with us, Laura. I've really enjoyed talking with you.
- [39:09]
Laura Kamoy
Same here. Thanks so much, Carolyn.
- [39:11]
C.P. Leslie
And thank you for listening to our podcast once again. I'm C.P. leslie, the host of New Books in Historical Fiction, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. And today I've been talking with Laura Kamoy about a founding mother, a novel of Abigail Adams, co written with Stephanie Dray. Find out more about them at lauracamoy.com, stephanydray.com, and dreamoy.com like us on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. EW BooksNetwork. You can find out more about me and my books@cplesd.com, where I blog about the interviews and in general discuss history, historical fiction, and the rapidly changing publishing industry. Goodbye until my next conversation about historical fiction on the New Books Network. Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us on Instagram and Blue sky with the handle ewbooksnetwork, and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.