Podcast Summary:

New Books Network

Episode Title: Steve Tibble, "Assassins and Templars: A Battle in Myth and Blood" (Yale UP, 2025)
Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Steve Tibble

Overview

In this episode, Dr. Miranda Melcher interviews Dr. Steve Tibble about his latest book, Assassins and Templars: A Battle in Myth and Blood (Yale UP, 2025). The conversation explores the intertwined histories of the Assassins (Nizari Ismailis) and the Templars during the Crusades—a period still influencing 21st-century culture and media, epitomized by the video game franchise Assassin’s Creed. The discussion delves into surprising similarities between these groups, their shared circumstances, myth-busting insights, their eventual decline, and the enduring legacy of their branded reputations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Guest and Book

• Dr. Steve Tibble specializes in medieval Crusader history and is affiliated with Cambridge and Royal Holloway, London (03:07).
• His current series, including this new book, follows a “bad boy” thread in medieval history.

2. Why Compare Assassins and Templars? (04:09–06:11)

• Both organizations are historically extreme and “cult-like,” though not accurately described as simply "radicalized" or "terrorist."
• Dr. Tibble notes striking anthropological parallels in their development due to shared circumstances:

  “It’s quite fun looking at what a bunch of human beings, faced with the same problems in broadly the same area, come up with. It's like SimCity… the same strategies, same methodologies…” (05:18)

3. The Origins and Tactics of the Assassins (06:11–17:55)

• Background: The Assassins (Nizari Ismailis) were a persecuted Shia splinter group following the death of their leader, Nizar.
• Forced Secrecy: Hostility from both Sunni neighbors (who labeled them with the derogatory “hashashin”) and even other Shia forced them into cult-like secrecy.
• Why Assassinate?
  • Survival dictated an “asymmetrical warfare” approach—small, highly committed teams targeting key political figures:

    “A single person with a dagger in the right place at the right time can cause more damage than one of those huge armies.” (15:02)

  • The term “assassin” was both a slur and a strategic brand:

    “…The promise of death—that, the assassin brand that has been created by their strategy and by their enemy's fear and anger, created something that's hugely powerful, and they really lean into that.” (30:15)

• Myths Addressed:
  • The popular notion of drug-fueled killers is debunked as enemy propaganda.

4. Templars: Crusader “Corporation” and Parallels with Assassins (19:29–28:07)

• Origins: Emerged after the First Crusade as a militarized religious order to defend Crusader states.
• Similarities:
  • Both had small numbers but immense impact through uncompromising commitment and strategic use of fear.
  • Both maintained castles in key mountainous areas; their relationship ranged from landlord-tenant to gangster-style extortion.
  • Reputation for martyrdom and fearlessness became a powerful form of psychological warfare.

  “…The leverage with an assassin was you couldn’t see them coming. The leverage with the Templar was you really could see them coming.” (24:11)

• Not Suicide Squads:
  • Both orders valued survival and commitment, not suicidal missions; exit strategies were sought whenever possible.

5. Branding, Myth, and Lasting Legacy (29:14–36:12)

• Both groups understood the value of branding and leaned into it:
  • “Old Man of the Mountain” (for the Assassins) was a deliberately cultivated legend.
  • Templars' iconography retains enormous modern resonance.
• Dr. Tibble uses a modern analogy to explain their PR savvy:

  “…If you paid a branding Agency nowadays to come up with a title. You certainly wouldn't regret signing the check once they came up with [‘Assassin’].” (30:38)

• Their reputations created power and deterrence beyond their numbers.

6. Cooperation, Conflict, and the Complexity of their Relationship (36:12–43:43)

• Not always enemies:
  • Sometimes engaged in practical alliances or shared enemies (many mutual hostilities against leaders like Saladin).
  • At times, had amicable and even intimate relations (sharing castles, participating in religious discussions).
  • “You have this kind of ironic thing where Assassins were welcomed by the Crusaders to come and pray at the shrine of an Assassin leader inside a Crusader castle.” (39:32)
• Frequently, volatility and ideological extremism led to bloody clashes between them.

7. The Decline and Fall of Both Orders (43:43–50:21)

• Both rose and fell in roughly parallel arcs:
  • Mongols and Mamluks ultimately proved immune to the Assassins’ power of fear; systematically destroyed them in the mid–13th century.
  • Templars became redundant after loss of Crusader states, leading to their suppression and show trials in Europe.
• Despite their extinction, their mythic reputations outlived their material presence.
• “They no longer had a brand that exerted fear… but we're still talking about them because the power of their brand… has huge resonance.” (49:31)

8. Assassins Creed and Pop Culture (50:21–54:08)

• Dr. Tibble candidly notes that the enormous popularity of Assassin’s Creed bridges fantasy and history:

  “I always assumed Assassin’s Creed was fantasy… but the more I started to study the history and looked at what was going on between the two… you can see why they create a great backdrop…” (51:47)

• Video games and films evoke the aesthetics and drama, often blending fact and fiction—yet serve as an entry point for historical curiosity, not rigorous history.

9. Future Works (54:08–55:45)

• Dr. Tibble is working on new books, including a history of the Hospitallers (the other major Crusader order), co-authored with Rory McClellan, covering their history up to the Cold War.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On cultural similarity and shared survival strategies:

  “You give people a particular problem and you can just watch it playing out over time.” (05:19)

• On the enduring impact of myth and legend:

  “It’s a lot cheaper than buying a huge army is to have your enemy fear everything that you stand for.” (30:04)

• On how myth becomes power:

  “Their brand of fear was powerful, but eventually, they were overcome by other players who had an even stronger brand of fear.” (45:04)

• On Assassin’s Creed and its relationship to historical truth:

  “Assassin’s Creed does not – it’s not a history lecture…it's a great way of bringing those things to life… I would say that I enjoy it for what it’s good at and I wouldn’t criticize it for what it never set out to be.” (53:17)

• On the tragic, ironic end of the Assassins:

  “Ironically, they turn into kind of, you know, patsies in the end for the very people that hate them and who they hate. So, it's a rather sad ending…” (47:14)

Important Timestamps

• 03:07: Dr. Tibble’s academic background and previous works
• 05:18: Shared “cult-like” traits and anthropological framing
• 12:36: Why assassination became their strategy of survival
• 19:57: The Templars’ origin and mirrored problems
• 24:11: Iconic tactics — contrast of “seen” and “unseen” violence
• 30:15: The importance of branding for fear and power
• 37:14 – 43:43: Alliances, shared enemies, and pragmatic relationships
• 43:43: Parallel declines of both groups
• 50:21: Evaluation of Assassin’s Creed as a historical (or non-historical) entryway
• 54:23: Dr. Tibble’s upcoming work on the Hospitallers

Final Thoughts

Dr. Tibble’s Assassins and Templars is an engaging, myth-busting historical narrative highlighting how two notorious, “cult-like” groups in the Crusading era navigated shared challenges, developed legendary reputations, and shaped cultural imagination far beyond their own era. The episode effectively weaves rigorous history with accessible storytelling and reflects on how both history and legend continue to resonate in modern popular culture.