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Sunny Dhillon, "Hide and Sikh: Letters from a Life in Brown Skin" (Wolsak and Wynn, 2025)
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- [00:00]
Sunny Dhillon
We heard you.
- [00:01]
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- [00:15]
Marshall Po
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:22]
Holly Gattery
Hello, everyone, and welcome to nbn. I'm your host, Holly Gattery, and I am excited to be joined today by Sunny Dhillon to talk about his really beautiful new book. It is a collection of nonfiction personal essays in an epistolary form, Hide and Letters from a Life in Brown Skin. Sunny, welcome to the show.
- [01:47]
Interviewer/Host
Thank you.
- [01:48]
Holly Gattery
It is so good to have you. For those of you who don't know Sunny, Sunny is a former news reporter whose viral essay journalism While Brown and When to Walk Away, highlighted a significant challenges that journalists of color can face. Sonny worked as a print reporter for 10 years. He has also appeared on television and radio and has spoken at conferences. He is passionate about racial justice and continues to write on that theme. He holds a master's degree in journalism from the University of British Columbia. He and his young family now live in Ontario, where Sunny attends law school and this is his first book. So, as mentioned, in 2018, Sunny Dylan resigned as a journalist with the Globe and Mail. His blog post announcing his departure went unexpectedly viral. It was a decision that had been long brewing, and Dylan posted the piece with the hope that it would lead to meaningful reflection on the lack of diversity in Canadian journalism and the problems therein. But he was not optimistic. In the sharply funny memoir, shaped as a series of letters to his daughter, Dylan explains why he was not hopeful. From his earliest memories, his experience of being Canadian was shaped by race, and as a child, he's often found himself confused by what he should do. When the fact that he was different was raised, his first reaction was to hide from his skin color, from his native tongue, and even from his name, until he realized he didn't feel the need to hide anymore and that he didn't want to hide anymore. With warmth, honesty, and lots of humor, Dylan shares his journey so that his daughter will not have to struggle through the lessons he took too long to learn, so that she will know who she is and be proud. Sunny, my first question for you is one that I ask all my guests, but I'm especially interested to hear your response. And that is, where did this book start for you? Obviously you had ideas swirling around your head. You have this viral essay, but when did you decide to write a book?
- [03:44]
Sunny Dhillon
I think, like a lot of people, you know, I was sort of writing this in various forms and just kind of getting ideas down and trying to figure out what that correct form would be and to have something crystallized. And so it became clear to me during that writing process that I wanted to be able to speak to my daughter through this book. And so the book opens with the first time that she's present for an overt act of racism, which occurred at a playground here in Ottawa. And we ultimately, during that incident, had to end up leaving the playground. And from there I sort of moved through what it's like to grow up and live in this country in brown skin. Some of the comment incidents and experiences and lessons, and I think around the time my daughter was born, these ideas that I'd had about these memories that stick with us from when we were young, the incidents that we wish we could have back, the incidents where we wish we'd been stronger, more secure. I was already thinking about these sorts of things at the time my daughter was born, and so sharing those with her through these letters just felt like a natural way to go.
- [05:13]
Holly Gattery
What I found so tender and moving about these letters, about these essays, is.
- [05:19]
Co-host/Interviewer
The fact that it's easy to feel hopeless. I mean, I. Your words resonated so much.
- [05:25]
Holly Gattery
I can remember standing in a hardware.
- [05:27]
Co-host/Interviewer
Store and somebody asking, what am I. And that I was very, quote, exotic.
- [05:33]
Holly Gattery
Looking, and then having the cash register.
- [05:35]
Co-host/Interviewer
When I said, oh, I'm from here, I'm Canadian, because I was not. I mean, I was being difficult on purpose because I knew what the person was actually asking me. And when I finally said, iranian, I'm Iranian, my father's Iranian, she. She said, oh, well, you seem very nice, but it's a shame about isis. And I was just too floored to say anything.
- [05:57]
Holly Gattery
And I didn't stand up for myself, and I left. And when I was reading your book.
- [06:02]
Co-host/Interviewer
I found that an echo of a.
- [06:05]
Holly Gattery
Similar sentiment about times that we wish we would have acted differently or stood up for ourselves. And I found it so interesting that you were talking to your daughter because there's a hopelessness, but when you're talking to your daughter, there's so much hope.
- [06:19]
Co-host/Interviewer
Because your daughter Jaya embodies so much hope.
- [06:23]
Holly Gattery
And I was wondering if you could talk about balancing that, the way that you feel about the world and your.
- [06:28]
Co-host/Interviewer
Hope for the world as a father.
- [06:30]
Sunny Dhillon
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, hopeful is probably not the natural state. It's something that sometimes can feel hard to reach. And certainly in the era in which we live, it's hard not to feel despair, at least at times. But I just have found with becoming a father and seeing the way that JM moves through the world, seeing the fearlessness with which she. She does things, even as I sometimes wish she wouldn't do them, where I wish she wouldn't run through the secure door at the airport. You know, stuff like that, where I'm just like. You know, I think I compare it to, you know, the lessons that you learn. You know, you described that. That incident that you went through, and I describe many incidents more in the book where you. You just really start to feel like you're being. You're being surveilled, and you really feel as though you're. Even as you move through the world, that you're not moving through it freely, that you're moving through it in a. In a reaction to all the times people have stopped you to say that you're doing this or you're doing that wrong. And so, you know, I think for me, having, you know, my first child and just being able to sort of see the start of that process and being able to help her through that process has been hopeful, you know, seeing her just kind of, you know, go up to people and introduce herself and her favorite toy and just do so without this, you know, this trepidation that I sometimes find myself having. Yeah, it is a hopeful thing. And I think there have been other things that I talk about in the book, some of the protests that I've attended, things like that, where some of the allyship that does exist in this moment that I don't always remember being as apparent or as visible when I was coming of age. So I think sometimes you have to squint to see it. But there is, There is hope there. There is, there is. There are better days ahead, perhaps.
- [08:48]
Co-host/Interviewer
I love the wording. There are better days ahead, perhaps. Yeah, that's about how I feel, too. There's a scene. There's a scene in your, in one of the essays where you're talking about being the goalie on a soccer team as a kid. And there's a fly that just won't leave you alone. And one of the. Well, there's two other boys, but one in particular says something about it, the fly bothering you because of your smell. And that just stabbed me. I can remember very. I don't. I'm not going to say it was a mistake because I wish the world was more accepting. I can remember in my small rural Ontario town once taking chilokab, which is a very. A fragrance Iranian dish, to school after having gourmet abzi the night before, where you have, like garlic and fenugreek pouring out of you no matter what you do, and having people comment and telling me that, like, the food, the chilokobab, which, like a long skewer of meat, looked like poo, essentially. And I don't think I've ever lived that down. Like the shame and the. The shame in this book.
- [09:57]
Holly Gattery
I mean, maybe it's not something that all readers would pick up on, but.
- [10:00]
Co-host/Interviewer
It was something that really stuck with me that internalized just shame about everything and trying to move past that and.
- [10:09]
Holly Gattery
Learn from it and have your daughter never experience that.
- [10:13]
Co-host/Interviewer
I was hoping just at a craft level, a style level.
- [10:17]
Holly Gattery
I mean, you discuss the shame, but you discuss it just in such a forward, unaffected way that actually made it sting more for me.
- [10:27]
Co-host/Interviewer
And I was wondering if you could talk about that and how you approach the conveyance of this shame thematically but also just stylistically.
- [10:36]
Sunny Dhillon
Yeah, I think in terms of being direct, I think one of the perhaps blessings and simultaneously curses of having been a News reporter for 10 years is that I do write very clearly and I'm very much to the point, which is just kind of a byproduct of having had only 400 words to work with on any given day. And Needing to get the, whatever the story of the day is down into those 400 words and trying to get as much as you can within those pages or within the space you've been allotted on those pages. And so I think I do write directly partly as a result of that. And I think with these incidents at times I don't in describing them need to really go to too deeply into explaining the, for lack of a better term, the horror of it. I think just writing these things matter of factly just kind of getting at what I think is the way that a lot of people experience racism and.
- [11:43]
Interviewer/Host
I think maybe speaks to the scorpion.
- [11:44]
Sunny Dhillon
Story that you told earlier is just.
- [11:46]
Interviewer/Host
How suddenly these things arise and just how they kind of come out of.
- [11:49]
Sunny Dhillon
Nowhere and just how you're thrown into this scene that 30 seconds earlier you didn't even anticipate coming. And I think the writing is kind doing the same thing where you know, we're just, we're just thrust into these situations that just, we don't necessarily know how to, how to get out of. And the one you mentioned there with, with smells and food smells in particular I think is one that a lot of children of immigrants are familiar with and.
- [12:22]
Interviewer/Host
But there's others, you know, I had.
- [12:25]
Sunny Dhillon
You know, I mentioned my daughter. She earlier this week came to me with something, she's in kindergarten and a stereotype that one of her classmates had shared with her about Indian people. And we had a long conversation about it and we had a follow up conversation the next morning. And so, you know, even at a young age these are things that kids live and I think we do need to be able to speak with them.
- [12:52]
Interviewer/Host
Directly about what's occurring.
- [12:53]
Holly Gattery
Thank you for that. So I'd really love with this conversation.
- [12:57]
Co-host/Interviewer
We'Re having about your style in mind, I'd love for you to read to.
- [13:02]
Holly Gattery
Us from any essay you'd like in your book.
- [13:05]
Interviewer/Host
Sure.
- [13:07]
Sunny Dhillon
So I think what I'll read from is one called Brown Name that is obviously about names.
- [13:16]
Interviewer/Host
And so Jaya, I hope you like your legal name. You should know that we agonized over its selection. Choosing one, deciding on the collection of letters that would capture who you are, who you will be, felt like a massive responsibility. The name Jaya met our key criteria. On a purely aesthetic level, it was beautiful. We also appreciated its deeper significance since the name and its variations mean victory or victorious. As a bonus, we believe the name would be easy to pronounce, sparing you that most common of brown kids slights. J Ya. How could anyone possibly mess that up? You can imagine our surprise then, since.
- [13:50]
Sunny Dhillon
People continually do pronouncing it as Jaya.
- [13:54]
Interviewer/Host
As though the first syllable rhymes with y as opposed to way. If you have some kind of appointment.
- [13:59]
Sunny Dhillon
The person reading out your name appears.
- [14:00]
Interviewer/Host
More likely to get it wrong than to get it right. Names can, for me at times be a touchy subject. I wanted you to have one that was perfect, drama free, that has seldom seen the case with my name or perhaps more the point names. Sikhs have a special naming ceremony known as the Nal Korram. The event is held at a gorgoda with the Guru Granth Sahib open to a random page. The child's name, as it has been explained to me, is to begin with the same letter as the first word on that page. We did not choose your name in this manner. I was taken aback to learn, given how integral the Gurdwara was to my family life when I was young, that my parents also eschewed this option. My mother says she chose my legal name, which I refer to as Blank.
- [14:41]
Sunny Dhillon
Deep, simply because she liked it.
- [14:43]
Interviewer/Host
Of course, Blank Deep is not the name I typically use. I had been Sunny for as long as I can remember, even if the manner in which I acquired the second name is now lost. My mother previously told me that my Bubba was the first person to call me Sunny. When I later reminded her of this, she said she did not believe that was the case and could not recall telling me. As such, having two names, one I go by but do not legally possess and another that I officially hold but do not generally use, has created challenges. For instance, since the preferred name field is a relatively new invention, my older documents do not always line up. Sometimes Sunny has been thrown in as a middle name, other times it's added to the first name field in parentheses, and on still more occasions it is taken over as the primary, with Blank Deep relegated to the second spot or omitted altogether. This lack of continuity can lead to undue suspicion of me, as though I need more characteristics resulting in that outcome. As much as I wish I could say that having a largely hidden name in adulthood differs from that same reality in grade school, that there is no mockery when Blank Deep is discovered after a certain stage in life, that is not the case even in allegedly professional settings among those at the senior management level, the disclosure can prompt uproarious laughter while I am out of the room. The sustained mockery of Blank Deep is part of the reason I have stuck with the name Sunny for as long as I have, even though it possesses its own flaws. For example, Sunny does not really capture my vibe. Also, I regularly think people on the street are trying to get my attention when they are merely discussing the weather. The benefits of staying sunny do not stop there. It is, of course, what I've utilized professionally. To the extent that anyone knows who I am, knows my writing, it is under that name. We live in an era of decreasing privacy, of doxing and bad faith attacks. I am a brown man who discusses racism, having an added layer of security. A legal name that most people, including bigots, do not know, offers genuine value, though they're all reasons not to abandon one name. There are more still for not taking on blank deep itself. For starters, I have struggled to feel connected to it. When it has come up in my life, it has generally been associated with ridicule. I must confess that I have to some extent internalized this behavior. I have treated the name with the same derision, if not disdain, that others have. It was only in thinking up names for you that I began thinking long and hard about the names for me. I had high hopes for jm. I wanted you to adore it as much as your mother and I do. I wanted you to speak it with pride. And if I ask that of you, well, it seems only fair to ask it of myself. My first full time job after I left journalism was not in public relations, a common landing spot for former reporters. It was also not in academia, nor was it, say, some technical writer position at a large firm. It was in a warehouse. I operated a forklift. We needed the money and it was not the time to be a snob about my two university degrees. I will say more on this later, but speaking out publicly about systemic racism, as I did when I left my newspaper role, did not exactly endear me to many prospective employers. To be honest, I was not sure I would even get the warehouse position. I figured they would see my career experience, that I'd been a journalist who did not shy away from discussing race and racism, and that would be that my CV would find its way into the bin. The employer, however, was desperate for bonds and did not even inquire about my experience, only my availability. I worried I should still volunteer the information, but my desire to keep a roof over our heads won the day. I did not mention the name Sunny at all. For the first time in my life, I was purely blank deep. It was fascinating to witness the response. There were some mispronunciations, but when they are in good faith, and I promise it will always be easy to tell when they are not, my annoyance level can Only go so far. There were also a couple of occasions in which blank deep was misspelled, prompting me to point that out. The person involved apologized for the error. Intent is not always a defense, especially if people repeat certain mistakes after being informed of them or if they should plainly know better. But there are instances in which intent can matter, in which you can grant people a pass if you believe they deserve it. For me, hearing the name Blank Deep at all took some getting used to. It clanged off my ear. Responding to it was unnatural, at least at first. I had largely excised it for my life. Unless a person was looking at my legal documents, it never came up. Even then, the other person was unlikely to utter the name aloud. Now I was hearing and or seeing it on the regular. Within a matter of weeks, it was somewhat normal. There was no scene which my colleagues circled around me and, I don't know, mock the name in faux Indian accents. There was no drama at all. I'd spoken blank deep into the world and the world kept right on spinning. By hiding the name for as long as I did, I allowed it to become a dirty little secret, one that reared its head at inopportune moments. I could not feel a connection to Blythe because I refused to use it. Now, at long last, I was, and that connection started taking root. I hope, Jaya, that we had picked the right name for you. If we have not, I will understand you're moving in another direction. But please try to ensure that that is something you personally want to do, not something the actions of others have steered you toward. Do not let your name be pushed to the shadows. Instead, give it sunlight. Though the manner in which I came to be known as Sunny has been lost to the passage of time, I can tell you I've discovered Sunlight is in fact the translation of my legal name. Perhaps that is where it started. The name itself, glad you asked. It's Rovdeep.
- [19:50]
Co-host/Interviewer
Thank you so much for that powerful reading, Sunny. I still remember reading it for the first time. And when you're so glad you asked, Ravdeep, I thought to myself, it's nice to meet you. Like, it was just such a lovely moment in the book. And I have also struggled with names. I had no mercy for my children. My girls, well, my boys are fine. They have very like Western names that are easy for people where we live to pronounce. But the girls, you know, when you're talking about somebody calling J's name, I think every time we go to the doctor's office, I see Some nurse come out, and as soon as she begins looking down at that chart and sweating, I'm like, that must be one of us. Because she's. She's fighting for her life through these names that are so foreign to her.
- [20:34]
Holly Gattery
So.
- [20:34]
Co-host/Interviewer
Thank you. My question next for you is about when you were writing this. I wonder how much you were thinking about your audience.
- [20:43]
Holly Gattery
And I say this because maybe this is just a me thing, but there's.
- [20:46]
Co-host/Interviewer
Such a difference to me between the act of writing and the act of writing and think writing with the intent of publishing something. Now, you're a journalist, so I'm sure usually you're thinking about it being received in the world. But when I'm writing, I don't always think about that. Certainly with nonfiction, sometimes I'm just writing it. So I was wondering if you could.
- [21:03]
Holly Gattery
Talk about how much and if at all you thought about your audience or if your audience was truly just mostly your daughter.
- [21:10]
Sunny Dhillon
Yeah, I think it's. It's the latter there. I think my audience was. Was mostly my daughter. I mean, I, you know, I was writing. You know, perhaps this is a bit morbid, but, you know, when we were going through Covid and, you know, we didn't all know how long we were necessarily going to be here, I think a central thought for me was, well, if I'm not, you know, what are.
- [21:32]
Interviewer/Host
Some things that I would want her to know?
- [21:34]
Sunny Dhillon
And so that was really the driving force in what the book became. You know, if. If my daughter ever needs to remember, you know, what I would have thought about something or lived through or the love I have for her, you know, it'll all be contained within this one book. And so that was the focus throughout, I think, again, just to mention journalism, I think a useful thing from that is that I am very aware as to when a wider audience needs something explained and when they don't. And so in writing the book for my daughter, first and foremost, I was aware that there were certain things that other people aren't necessarily going to know that they're going to be confused about, that this or that might need to be broadened. And so, you know, I don't. My goal wasn't for the reader to be confused as to what I was talking about. There needed to be some guideposts there. And so I've done my best to provide those as needed. But really, the. In writing it, I was just. I was just thinking about my daughter.
- [22:49]
Co-host/Interviewer
As a daughter who is biracial, I thought what a gift it is, because I sometimes wish My father would talk more about his experiences coming here. My mother is white, my father Iranian. And I sometimes feel that I'm being infiltrated by white spaces and white communities. And that doesn't necessarily match up with my lived experience of the world. But growing up, I definitely felt like I was in them a lot more than other communities. And reading this, I was really thinking about how lucky Ja is to. To have this and what a.
- [23:27]
Holly Gattery
What a just gorgeous gift that is.
- [23:29]
Co-host/Interviewer
So one of my final questions for you is about when you were in.
- [23:35]
Holly Gattery
The process of editing this book.
- [23:38]
Co-host/Interviewer
So I'm always curious about the editing process of books like this. Now, was there? Because, I mean, it just. To me, it just seems so lovely and whole, and you have these, you know, addresses to your daughter, and then there's times where it sweeps out and seems to be addressing the world. Now, is that a cadence that was naturally in your head, or is that something that you find during the editing process or just subsequent drafts?
- [24:02]
Sunny Dhillon
I think it was subsequent drafts.
- [24:03]
Interviewer/Host
I think.
- [24:06]
Sunny Dhillon
As the book goes, particularly towards the end, the final third, I think there's a bit more of the real world in there. And I thought, if I'm going to talk about these incidents, these experiences, these lessons, it's going to be a challenge, not to mention what's happening in the world. And so it kind of just became clear that as much as the book is zoomed in a lot on me and on Jaya for the first two thirds of it, let's say that as we move along, we are going to need to address some of the issues of the day. And so I think that kind of came up very organically in the writing, that as much as we can talk about these personal lessons and moving through the world, there is a broader world to be discussed as well. And so I think it would have been. It would have struck me as there's a. A hole in the book not to. To weigh in on, on some of those things.
- [25:17]
Holly Gattery
I thought I had one question left for you, but I actually have two looking at my notes, because I skipped.
- [25:22]
Co-host/Interviewer
One that was actually really. That is very important to me, and.
- [25:25]
Holly Gattery
That is.
- [25:27]
Co-host/Interviewer
Discomfort leaving the readers with discomfort, with no hand holding out of that, which I think is very important. So there's a scene in the book where you are.
- [25:39]
Holly Gattery
Well, there's a couple scenes in the book, but there's one where you're walking.
- [25:42]
Co-host/Interviewer
With your wife by the seawall in B.C. and some biker is getting on your case that you're in the wrong lane when it turns out they're in the wrong lane. And there's the other scene where you're at a waterfront and somebody screams something incredibly racist out the window, and you're wondering about how much when you're looking around at other people, who else here would just prefer you just to disappear? And it is a deeply uncomfortable place to be for me as a reader, but necessarily so. So I'd love to hear about that and letting people just be uncomfortable because obviously, I mean, you have enough of your life. And I thought that it was really important that the readers be uncomfortable.
- [26:29]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, I agree.
- [26:30]
Sunny Dhillon
I mean, I think we need to, to the greatest extent we can, as racialized people who choose to talk about these issues, just explain what they're like and just, you know, explain how so often you talk about that incident at the beach. You know, how you have this idea for what your day is going to be, and then you end up just thrown into another situation and you end up having to spend your whole day thinking about why that happened, who else feels that way? What would have happened if you'd shown up 30 seconds later? Would you have avoided it altogether? Was that even aimed at you, or was it aimed at someone that maybe you didn't see, even if no one else seems to be around? Yeah, it can be a really uncomfortable feeling when these things occur. But I think, you know, as the book goes on, it becomes clear that we need to still just stand firmly through these incidents. I think I'm someone who has perhaps been knocked off his path a little too easily at times. And so if we go back to.
- [27:52]
Interviewer/Host
The earlier question about hope, I think.
- [27:55]
Sunny Dhillon
We just need to be more assured of ourselves during these incidents at times. I mean, that doesn't make them horrific, but, you know, we need to stand a little taller because we're here and we're not going to be pushed around.
- [28:13]
Holly Gattery
Thank you for that answer. So, my final question for you, and.
- [28:16]
Co-host/Interviewer
One that I understand that, you know, you're busy right now. You're in law school right now, and I'm about to ask you a question that may seem like I'm putting pressure on you, but I'm just curious. I'm wondering if you have a writing project you're working on now.
- [28:28]
Sunny Dhillon
No. No, I do not. No, I, I, you mentioned I'm in, I'm in law school currently. And so there's a lot of reading to do, a lot of things to be written for that. And so that. That keeps me pretty busy. You know, I've thought about whether there will be a second book at some point in my life, I don't. I don't feel a huge urge to write it right now. I think I'd like to, you know, pursue some other projects and pursue some new things and kind of go from there. That being said, as people have noted to me by now, we do have a second child. My wife and I have had a son as well. And so he just wasn't around while most of the other book. The book was being written. And so I do kind of feel like I owe him one to some degree. And so there's going to have to be a project about him in some facet during my life because it seems a little unfair for his sister to be very much at the core of one and for him to kind of just make the teensiest of cameos. But I think I might have to even that out at some point.
- [29:40]
Co-host/Interviewer
I think you should, and not just selfishly because I want to read more of your work, but also because I have four children and trust me, they remember. They remember who's in stories more, who's in Estimates or. And they. They just hound you with. So I. I would. I would love that for me. And, and also him. And I'm also curious about. I want to know more about the. The tender little nicknames and stuff like that that you call him because I loved Jaya's nicknames. I loved learning about her granola bar or cereal bar obsessions. There's such beautiful little gems of tenderness throughout this book that deals with such powerfully disturbing stuff, but important things and just, there's. There's wisdom and love. And again, everyone listening, I recommend you pick up this beautiful book by Sunny.
- [30:26]
Holly Gattery
Dylan Hyde and Sick Letters from A Life in Brown Skin, which was published with Walls I Can Win and is.
- [30:32]
Co-host/Interviewer
Available now wherever books are bought or borrowed.
- [30:34]
Holly Gattery
So get it.
- [30:35]
Co-host/Interviewer
And if you want to, you know.
- [30:39]
Holly Gattery
Shout it out, make sure to shout it out loud because this is a.
- [30:42]
Co-host/Interviewer
Book that needs all the attention.
- [30:43]
Holly Gattery
Thank you so much for joining me.
- [30:45]
Co-host/Interviewer
Today, Sunny, to talk about your wonderful book.