Susanna Rabow-Edling, "The First Russian Revolution: The Decembrist Revolt Of 1825" (Reaktion Books, 2025)

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Susanna Rabow-Edling, "The First Russian Revolution: The Decembrist Revolt Of 1825"
Date: November 16, 2025
Host: Aaron Weinocht
Guest: Susanna Rabow-Edling

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Main Theme

This episode explores the Decembrist Revolt of 1825, highlighting its place as "The First Russian Revolution." Historian Susanna Rabow-Edling shares insights from her new book, discussing the motivations of the Decembrists, their sociopolitical context, the dramatic events of the uprising, and the revolt’s enduring legacy in Russian history, culture, and opposition movements. The conversation also touches on issues of Russian liberalism, state power, and the shaping of national memory.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Motivation for Writing the Book (02:18)

• Rabow-Edling was inspired by the Decembrists' willingness to risk their privileged positions and lives for the cause of freedom—especially the emancipation of the serfs.
• She aims to challenge the narrative that Russia's history is one of unbroken conservatism, highlighting a neglected tradition of Russian liberalism.

Quote:
"Russian nationalists have managed to control the way that we look at Russian history as eternally conservative and different from the West. I think it's important to recognize that there was a liberal tradition in Russia and that it sometimes was quite strong."
(Susanna Rabow-Edling, 02:18)

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2. The Decembrists’ Notion of Freedom (04:03)

• Decembrists sought both "negative" freedom (from tyranny) and "positive" freedom (to participate in political life and decision-making).
• Emancipation of the serfs was their central cause; their personal freedoms included rights such as expression, press, and protection from illegal searches.

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3. The Sociological Profile of the Decembrists (05:24)

• Mostly educated, often officers who had fought in the Napoleonic Wars.
• Exposure to Western European thought and political systems, especially during military campaigns, deeply influenced their ideals.
• Upon returning to Russia, they were dismayed by serfdom and autocracy, feeling keenly the contrast with European society.

Quote:
"They were very well acquainted with Western thought and ideas... when they returned to Russia after the victory over Napoleon, they could see the backwardness of Russian life more clearly against the backdrop of European practices."
(Susanna Rabow-Edling, 05:57)

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4. Influence of Western and French Thought (09:27)

• The Decembrists admired the ideals of the French Revolution, even as they condemned Napoleon as a tyrant.
• Their distinction lay between democratic/liberal revolution and autocratic rule.

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5. Hopes for Reform under Alexander I (10:56)

• Initially, the educated elite hoped Alexander I would be a reformist Tsar—introducing a constitution and abolishing serfdom.
• Their disappointment was profound when Alexander shifted to conservative policies and liberal reforms stalled, leading the Decembrists to take action.

Quote:
"They saw Russia as really as part of Europe and that all the countries would become liberal in the same way... that made them all the more disappointed when that didn't happen."
(Susanna Rabow-Edling, 10:56)

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6. The Uprising: Events and Dynamics (13:36)

• The trigger: sudden death of Alexander I, succession uncertainty between Constantine and Nicholas.
• Constantine’s secret abdication and legal ambiguities led to chaos and confusion.
• Decembrists planned to take advantage of the succession crisis by refusing to swear allegiance to Nicholas and attempting to seize key state institutions.
• Their plan failed due to a lack of coordination, early oath-taking by the Senate, and crucial absences—particularly Prince Trubetskoy, their leader.

Quote:
"The decision to act at the time of a succession crisis made sense because autocracies are at their most vulnerable during the transitional power."
(Susanna Rabow-Edling, 13:36)

Important timestamps:

• [13:36] Explanation of the succession crisis and the blow-by-blow of the revolt
• [22:47] Explanation of why the plan failed and the confusion over constitutional monarchy

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7. Aftermath: Nicholas I’s Reaction and Russia’s Political Climate (28:09)

• Nicholas I became deeply suspicious of reform and opposition, setting a conservative tone for his reign.
• Intellectual life was strictly policed; subsequent opposition movements turned inward, focusing on abstract philosophy rather than direct political action.
• The Decembrists’ near-success and Nicholas’s acknowledgment of the threat influenced decades of Russian politics.

Quote:
"He fears the Decembrists throughout his reign or similar revolts. And that's why it's so important for him to control intellectual life..."
(Susanna Rabow-Edling, 28:09)

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8. Legacy and Memory of the Decembrists (32:38)

• Seen by future generations—especially liberal and socialist movements—as both moral heroes (selfless idealists) and political originators of Russian revolutionary tradition.
• Their image has been reinterpreted by every subsequent revolutionary and state regime.
  • Liberals of the 1860s saw them as naive idealists.
  • Socialists/Bolsheviks venerated them as forerunners.
  • Stalin-era portrayals emphasized their patriotism.

Quote:
"They became more of the moral heroes than political heroes because of the moral stand that they took against autocracy and not thinking of their own personal gains, but of the common good."
(Susanna Rabow-Edling, 32:38)

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9. Contemporary Uses: Film and Nationalism (38:42)

• Discussion of the 2019 film "Union of Salvation," which offers a state-sponsored, monarchist take on the Decembrists, casting Nicholas I as a savior of Russia and the Decembrists as misguided or naive.
• Film used to reflect contemporary Russian state thinking about nationalism and foreign ideas.

Quote:
"It presents Nicholas as some kind of hero who saves Russia from the prospect of civil war and also from the destruction of the state... the Decembrists aspire to introduce alien ideas to Russia that threatens to undermine the unity between the Tsar and the people."
(Susanna Rabow-Edling, 39:55)

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10. Decembrists in Exile and Their Wives (44:44)

• Wives of the Decembrists are traditionally seen as loyal companions, but Rabow-Edling emphasizes their diverse motivations—ranging from practical and economic to romantic, religious, and self-consciously heroic.
• These women were active participants: organizing aid, handling correspondence, improving prison conditions, and building community.
• Exile solidified a tradition of Russian political dissidents enduring Siberian banishment—a theme echoed into the present era (e.g., Navalny and Khodorkovsky's wives).

Quote:
"When you read their letters and diaries... you can see that there are different reasons for them to follow their husbands... And what is also, I think, fascinating is the kind of community they created, both the women and the men..."
(Susanna Rabow-Edling, 45:26)

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11. Enduring Relevance (50:39)

• Siberian exile as a motif in Russian radicalism dates back to the Decembrists.
• The term "Decembrist wife" persists in Russian discourse; recent political prisoners' wives have even been called “Dekabristka.”

Quote:
"Both Navalny's and Khodorkovsky's wives were called Decembrists' wives... It's ongoing."
(Susanna Rabow-Edling, 50:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Russian Liberalism:
  “Russian liberalism has been neglected in Russian history… there was a liberal tradition in Russia and that it sometimes was quite strong.” (Susanna Rabow-Edling, 02:18)

• On the Decembrists’ Western Influences:
  “They were very well acquainted with Western thought and ideas... they became aware of the workings of liberal societies and systems...” (Susanna Rabow-Edling, 05:57)

• On Nicholas I's Reaction:
  “He fears the Decembrists throughout his reign... it delayed reforms in Russia because of that.” (Susanna Rabow-Edling, 28:09)

• On Modern Russian Nationalism:
  “It’s a very conservative interpretation... the Decembrists aspire to introduce alien ideas to Russia that threatens to undermine the unity between the Tsar and the people.” (Susanna Rabow-Edling, 39:55)

• On the Exile Community:
  “The community that they created made them stronger. And also that they could continue talking about these political ideas that they had and develop them.” (Susanna Rabow-Edling, 45:26)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:18 – Rabow-Edling’s motivations; Russian liberalism
• 04:03 – Decembrists’ definition of freedom
• 05:24 – Social background and Western influences
• 10:56 – Initial hopes for reform under Alexander I
• 13:36 – Detailed blow-by-blow of the Decembrist Revolt
• 22:47 – Why the revolt failed
• 28:09 – Nicholas I’s conservative reaction
• 32:38 – Decembrists’ changing legacy in Russian history
• 38:42 – Contemporary portrayal in film and nationalism
• 44:44 – Decembrists in exile; the role and agency of their wives
• 50:39 – Exile as part of the Russian revolutionary tradition; modern echoes

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Conclusion

The episode provides an engaging, deeply contextualized look at the Decembrist Revolt and its place in Russian history and imagination. Rabow-Edling’s scholarship illuminates both the ideals of the early 19th-century Russian liberals and the long afterlife of the Decembrists in everything from Soviet ideology to today’s political language. Their story is one of hope, failure, adaptation, and enduring symbolic significance.

Transcript

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[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Hi, this is Aaron Weinocht and I'm here with the New Books Network, the Russian and Eurasian Studies section of that group of podcasts. And I'm talking today with Susanna Rabo Edling, who's got a new book on the Decemberist revolt in 1825. It's called the First Russian Revolution, which it certainly was. So thanks for being on the the podcast, Susanna.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Thank you for having me.

[Aaron Weinocht]

You bet. I was wondering, first off, aside from the fact that it's 200 years since the revolt happened, what brought you to this particular topic? What made you write decide to write this particular book?

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Oh, well, I think there are two reasons for that. The first one is that I was really fascinated by how these noblemen risked everything for their ideals and for freedom. They risked their careers, their privileges, and even their lives. So that was the first thing that motivated me. And then the second one was that I have always thought that Russian liberalism has been neglected in Russian history and In a way, Russian nationalists have managed to control the way that we look at Russian history as eternally conservative and different from the West. I think it's important to recognize that there was a liberal tradition in Russia and that it sometimes was quite strong. So yeah, those were the two reasons, I think, for why I, why I started writing this book.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Yeah, I certainly spent relatively little time to other things reading about the liberals when I was in graduate school. I mean, I remember reading Foleysky on that subject and so on. But yeah, the liberals do tend to get pretty short shrift in the grand scheme of Russian intellectual history, I think.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, yeah, you're definitely right there, what you said.

[Aaron Weinocht]

They were risking everything for freedom. Freedom from what? From their point of view.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Freedom in both a negative and a positive sense. They wanted freedom from, from the oppressive tyranny that they saw. They wanted individual rights, they wanted to, but they also wanted positive freedom, freedom to take part, to, to participate in, in politics and, and to be part of decision making and so on. But I think the most important freedom for them was the emancipation of the serfs. So it was not their own freedom, but the freedom of the serfs. But in terms of themselves, it was of course individual rights that they wanted. The freedom of the press and freedom of expression and also to be, to ensure that they people did not come into their homes to search and to arrest them without do, I mean, without any legal rights to do that.

[Aaron Weinocht]

So yeah, something people might not be real familiar with is the kind of, I don't know, somewhat unique sociology, I suppose, of the Russian aristocracy as far as that being where a lot of the, you know, anti government ideas came from. Is that, is that something you could talk about a little bit as far as kind of who, who are these people and what makes them, you know, for in that context, radicals, even though they're, you know, aristocrats. And so you don't have a, you know, quite a stake in the system.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, I mean they did belong to the, to the privileged layers of Russian society. Some, some were very rich aristocrats, but others were quite poor. But most of them were educated and that's the important part. And also the fact that almost all of them were officers, which, something that, that was important and, and, and they had, had. They were very well acquainted with Western thought and ideas and, and they studied classical literature, history, contemporary European literature, as well as law, philosophy and political economy. And they also spoke French fluently, some, some new German and English, but all of them knew French and they, so they read a lot In French, mostly, but they also, by being officers, they participated in the Napoleonic wars, which was also really important for them, where they came into contact with liberals in France and in Germany and also saw liberal systems at close hand. And I think that, yeah, the fact that they became aware of the workings of liberal societies and systems was really important and made strong impressions on them. And then when they. They returned to Russia after the victory over Napoleon, they could see the backwardness of Russian life more clearly against the backdrop of European practices. And. And they were. They reacted very strongly to the enslaved peasants and the. The corruption and the despotism that they saw. One thing that made them particularly angry was when the peasants who had been fighting against Napoleon returned to Russia and were forced into serfdom again. But they also thought it was unfair that Russians, who in their view had liberated Europe from tyranny in the form of Napoleon, could not be free at home. So, yeah, that was also important. Okay. Yeah.

[Aaron Weinocht]

This question always kind of fascinated me, actually, going clear back to when I was an undergraduate student, is that kind of cross fertilization in between French thought and Russians. And I don't know, I've always been interested in the fact that the officers involved in the Decembrist Revolution, old, you know, could see Napoleon as a tyrant, but then be really enamored of, you know, French thought that preceded him, you know, that they made it, you know, a clear distinction in between the French Revolution and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and then that of Napoleon. You know, it's a. I don't know, because that's a. That's a dynamic that's always interested me quite a lot myself.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Okay. I mean, to them, Napoleon was. Was an autocrat. So it was not something that they dis. I mean, some of them were actually fascinated by him, by the fact that he was an ordinary man who. Who came to power. But, I mean, all. All of them saw him as a tyrant because. Just because he wasn't, he ruled in an unlimited way, and they wanted. What they wanted most was a constitution, constitutional government. So I think that was the main reason why they saw him as a tyrant. But they were also affected by the propaganda, of course, in Russia at the time, which portrayed Napoleon as a tyrant.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Do you think that the organizers of the revolt, I think kind of the standard narrative about Alexander the First, correct me if I'm wrong here, is that, you know, he may have been thinking in constitutional directions, you know, up till the middle of his reign. Like, did you think that, you know, were the minds behind the attempted coup in 1825. Were they kind of hopeful that Alexander would be the reforming czar up until, you know, maybe till the Napoleonic invasion? Were they always thinking there would have to be a violent overthrow?

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

No, I think they saw him, or they did see him as a reformist star up until almost 1820, I would say, when he changed his policies to more conservative policies, especially concerning foreign policies. They were really upset that he joined Metternich, the Prussian leader, in wanting to invade other countries where people started revolutions, like in Spain and Naples and Portugal and Greece. So on 1820. 1821. So. But. But when he came to power in 1801, most of the educated elite, most members of the educated elite believed in him as a. As a liberal tsar. They saw him as a liberal czar who wanted to introduce constitutional reforms and to abolish serfdom. And that was. I mean, he started to. He started initiatives to do that, but they never materialized. So that was why, I think they became. The educated elite became very disappointed because they truly believed that Russia would also change and make that there would be liberal reforms in Russia as well as in Europe. They saw Russia as really as part of Europe and that all the countries would become liberal in the same way. So they really believed that. And that made them all the more disappointed when. When that didn't happen and they decided to take matters into their own hands. So. So to speak.

[Aaron Weinocht]

So maybe that's a good transition then, to get to the actual revolt itself. So, you know, what makes them decide to pull the trigger when they do? You know, they really weren't quite ready in 1825, I think. But what's. What's. Could you give the listener just kind of a blank, blow by blow, some series of events that'll give them an overview of what happened?

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, I can. Well, what triggered the revolt was the fact that Alexander the First suddenly died in November of 1825. And everyone believed that his eldest brother, Constantine, who was the commander in chief of the Polish army, would succeed him. But what most people didn't know was that Constantine had renounced his right to the throne in a secret document. And the reason for that was that he had married the daughter of a Polish chamberlain. And that, I mean, that meant that he could not produce a legitimate heir because there was a new law in 1820 that stipulated that only children of Romanovs born of marriages with persons of equal status could inherit succession rights. So this new law caused Constantine to renounce his claim to the throne, but the document that he signed was placed in A manifesto signed by Alexander the First and was hidden away. The problem that no one seems to have foreseen was that an unpublished document did not really have the force of law. So. And also that the Russian sovereign could not dispose of the inheritance of the throne through a personal will. So if Nicholas, which was next in line, Constantine's younger brother Nicholas, if he had ascended the throne without Constantine's public abdication, it could be considered an illegal usurpation of the throne. So all this meant that Nicholas swore allegiance to Constantine and so did the gods regiments. Almost all the Decembrists were in the Imperial Guards regiments. But meanwhile in Warsaw, Constantine, he declared his loyalty to Nicholas, but he didn't officially renounce his claim to the throne. And for two weeks letters were sent back and forth between St. Petersburg and Warsaw until it became clear that Constantine would not return to the capital and he would not abdicate in public. So this, in clear situation, presented the members of the Northern Decembrist Society in St. Petersburg with an opportunity to overthrow the autocracy. But it was completely unexpected and they had to make their plans basically overnight. But I mean, the decision to act at the time of a succession crisis made sense because autocracies are at their most vulnerable during the transitional power. So, and especially if there is uncertainty about the succession to the throne. But so they, the plants, all the members or the members of the society, they gathered at the quarters of the poet Kondraty Rileyev, and they decided that they would use the moment of taking the new oath to Nicholas to revolt. And that was also they thought that the swearing of a new oath so soon after the old one would create confusion among the soldiers. So they would agitate among the troops against a new oath. But they could not be sure of the number of troops they could count on, because no one, I mean, they were really young, so they were not regimental commanders. And so they could only vouch for the companies that they commanded, their own companies. And in fact, many of the members were unsure of their success. But they saw the need to act for the freedom of Russia and to set an example for others. The plan was to march as many troops as they could trust to the Senate Square on the day of the oath taking to Nicholas, under the pretext of defending Constantine's rights. And if the number of troops were sufficient, it was decided to seize the Winter palace, the main governmental buildings, the banks and the post office. And then they would occupy the Peter and Paul fortress. After the royal family had been arrested, the Decembrist would then surround the Senate to prevent the senators from swearing the oath to Nicholas and compel them to read aloud their manifesto to the people. This manifesto that the Decembrists had drafted stated that the Tsar had renounced its thrown and the former government had been abolished. So consequently the. The Senate had found it necessary to appoint a provisional government that would lead the country until a constituent assembly was convened. But I don't know how. I mean, do you want me to continue?

[Aaron Weinocht]

Who did, who did they. Did they have any particular candidate in mind for their constitutional monarch?

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

No, not. I mean, they, some of them wanted a republic and some of them wanted to have constitutional democracy. So they were. They didn't really agree on that. So. But I think that those who wanted a constitution, a constitutional monarchy, they believed that the Tsar could still could remain, but as a constitutional monarch.

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[Aaron Weinocht]

So some of them would have thought that Nicholas the first, you know, could have been in theory, a constitutional monarch.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Okay. I can imagine that some of those arguments they would have had must have referenced that uncomfortable constitutional monarchy period in France with Louis XVI as kind of an unwilling constitutional monarch. I can imagine that the detractors of that point of view would have pointed to that as evidence that it wouldn't work.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, exactly. And that's what the Southern society believed, especially their leader, leader Pavel Pestel. He, he had exactly that argument that it would never work. But I mean, I think the, they were in such a hurry that they didn't really. They just wanted to, to do something and then I guess they would decide afterwards how it would actually work out. But, but if they, I mean, they believe that the constituent assembly would, would make these decisions and this assembly would be, would constitute, be constituted of representatives of, of all the estates, and it would also introduce, establish a constitution. But the several things occurred that prevented this plan. The first thing was that Nicholas had rescheduled the oath taking to an earlier time. So this meant that the Senate had already sworn allegiance to Nicholas and left before the Decembrists arrived, which meant that the Senate could not read this manifesto, it could not approve of the revolt. And then the, the appointed leader of the revolt, Prince Trubiskoye, he never showed up. And that was of course, a vital blow because we all know how soldiers need to have a leader to act. And now they were without a leader. And the third fact was that fewer troops than they had hoped marched to the Senate square in the end. So, yeah, so basically this ruined the plan to force the Senate to sanction the revolt and to declare the government overthrown.

[Aaron Weinocht]

But yeah, people might have a, people listening, might have a particular association when they hear the word Senate. You maybe clarify like what function the, the Senate at that point actually serves, since probably most people are going to associate that with republican institutions, which Russia doesn't by definition have at that point.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

No, it was basically the, the Tsar Senate. So they were not democratic in any sense, but they, in the, this period of succession, unstable succession, they were important because then they had sort of a legal function to, to make everything work and to, to see to that this succession was legal. So.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Yeah, yeah, I just thought it'd be worth clarifying that points. It's, you know, a lot of people are. You think of Senate, you're going to think of a representative body. Right? So that's.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, it's, it's not, not at all representative. No.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Creation of Peter the Great, as I recall. So. Okay, so we're kind of up to the point then where the, the, you know, rebellion falls apart into some chaos. It's not a good sign when your leader doesn't show up. As you, as you said. Maybe, maybe I was going to move on a little bit, but maybe before we do, why didn't their leader show up?

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Well, nobody actually knows for sure, but I mean, I certainly don't think it was because he was, I mean, I, he was a hero from the Napoleonic wars, so he wasn't afraid of fighting or, or, or, I mean, that part. But I, I think my personal view is that it was because he was afraid that a lot of soldiers would die and that he would be responsible for it. That was, that's my opinion. But I mean, it's interesting because when you read the memoirs, memoirs of the Decemberists, they never seemed to have talked about it in exile, although they were together all the time. That was something that they didn't. Or at least they don't write about it, so. Yeah, that's interesting.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Yeah, yeah, that's kind of a fascinating little tidbit there.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah. But I mean, they, many of them were unsure of their success, of course, and if you are the main leader, then you're responsible for all the soldiers and whatever happens to them.

[Aaron Weinocht]

I guess it's always kind of struck me that this revolt, I mean, Nicholas seems to have been of a pretty conservative temperament anyway, but it's always seemed to me like the revolt really sets the tone for reville the next 30 years until Nicholas died in 1855. So, you know, does that seem right to you? Like, what's, what's the nature of Nicholas's response to this attempted coup.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, I mean, you're right. It definitely sets the tone. He's. He fears the Decembrists throughout his reign or similar revolts. And that's why he. He. It's so important for him to control intellectual life. And that also, of course, affects the way that the educated elite mean their. How they view politics. They basically turn inwards to philosophical speculations and abstract thinking, most of them. And I mean, the next generation of, you know, the slow files and the Westernizers are much more philosophical and not so much outspoken in terms of politics. And. Yeah, I think what I found interesting when reading all this material was how close the Decembrists actually were of succeeding. And that Nicholas acknowledges this in. In his writings, that he feared that their revolt would succeed and also that it would spread to spectators around them. And that was really clear. And so, I mean, that's why. I guess it was not. He didn't. He feared them all the time during his whole life. And that affected the rest of the. Of all his. I think it delayed reforms in. In Russia because of that. But he also. He also became aware of. Of how nationalism could be radical, and that's why he supported a more. I mean, a different version of nationalism, which is the conservative form of nationalism that he. He supported the kind of nationalist that values. Or values orthodoxy and.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Oh, the orthodoxy. Autocracy, nationality.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Exactly, exactly. The doctrine that Uvarov came up with, he presented that in contrast to the radical nationalism, which was more about popular sovereignty. And that's also an important part of the legacy of the Decembrists, I think, to be aware of.

[Aaron Weinocht]

I can never stop myself from chuckling. I don't know if you ever ran across this, but I was reading a book a number of years ago. I think it might have been by. Might have been Kevin Platt. But anyway, I did not realize until a few years ago that the original draft of Nicholas's official nationality policy was written in French. That's hilarious.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Aha. Okay. No, it wasn't. Where.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Yeah, yeah. I just. It makes me smile every time I think about it. Right, that the document laying out the right kind of, you know, nationalism for Russians to have is originally drafted in French. Right. I mean, it really speaks to your point. You started out with. About the. The Decemberists themselves, you know, being quite conversant in French and so on.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Oh, you mean. Do you mean it was. It was drafted in the French language in France? I thought you said.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Oh, sorry. Yeah, no, I was drafted in the. In the French language. Yeah, I've always gotten a, gotten a chuckle out of it.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, yeah, they all spoke French, so that's. Yeah, it's funny.

[Aaron Weinocht]

So you kind of gotten gotten onto the next question I wanted to ask you already by the showing how the revolt kind of sets the tone for the rest of Nicholas's reign. So I was wondering if maybe you might comment too. So, yeah, it fails in its objectives, but what are kind of the range of ways that the revolt's significant for Russian history in the decades that follow, even though it was, you know, it failed in its immediate objective?

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Well, I mean it was definitely very, very important for the opposition movement that followed, especially the, the har gener generation. They idealized the Decembrists as heroes and, and they, I mean in a way they affected all the subsequent opposition to autocracy and, and it was not until, I mean they still do actually. They still, they're still seen as heroes in, in to. To contemporary opposition, the contemporary opposition movement. But it's. I guess they became more of the moral heroes than political heroes because of the moral stand that they took against autocracy and not thinking of their own personal gains, but of the common good. And that is something that the contemporary opposition movement has discussed and, and been. I mean they have been self critical in the sense that they are not as. They don't see themselves in that way that they. Fighting for the common good. And, and yeah, I don't, I'm a bit at loss for words here, but yeah. Did you think of anything specific here?

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[Aaron Weinocht]

Just thinking about like so you know for instance the, like the idea of the French Jacobins, you know, looms large for the Bolsheviks, right? I mean yeah, the Decemberists. Are the Decemberists getting talked about by the, you know, by the 1870s and 1880s revolutionaries in the same way that the Bolsheviks later talk about the Jacobins or you know, on the other hand do we see them as because of the chaos of the failure of the coup, do we see them as kind of, you know, misguided idealists who couldn't get organized or they, they really she positively by later revolutionaries than that.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

I mean the, the liberals of the 1860s they saw them as unorganized and idealistic and not realistic. So they, they believe that in order to make changes you have to cooperate with the regime instead. And they, they were very particular with emphasizing that they were not, they didn't want, did not want a revolution. They wanted to have reforms, gradual reforms and to cooperate with the regime. This was yeah like from after the Crimean War, 1855, 1860s. But then the socialists, they of course saw the Decemberists more as there. I mean as, as the, the that they started the Russian revolutionary tradition and something that the Bolsheviks then could continue and that. So, so they all used the Decembrists in different ways. But I think that, but then again Lenin didn't like the way that the Decembrists were portrayed as the first, the originators of the Russian revolutionary tradition because they were noblemen, not from the people, but still then Stalin used them also but more as patriotists, patriots then as he toned down the international influence and emphasize that they were Russian patriots. So they all used them in different ways through the years.

[Aaron Weinocht]

I got that sense too from reading your book. I remember thinking that it seems like every era has been able to kind of repurpose them to their own uses.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron Weinocht]

That seems like a really consistent dynamic that maybe brings us to you know, what's one of the more recent uses I think of the Decembrists. And that's the film that came out. You reference it in the book films called the Union of Salvation. I'd vaguely Heard of the film and then went and watched it after I read your book. If anybody listening is interested. The film's available for free on YouTube. You can find it there with. I mean, it's in Russian, but it's got English subtitles on it. So as I recall from the book, you were saying that it's. The film is. It's basically a pro, kind of a monarchist film, as I recall, was the word you used. It's very much a pro Russian state film. So the Decemberists don't come off looking all. All that good. So here we'd see, like, that the memory of the Decembers be put. Being put to a different use in our time and place. Right. So I was just wondering, is there anything you'd like to say about the. The film version of the. Of the book? Like, how is it pro status or anything like that?

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's a very interesting film and I definitely recommend. Is sponsored by the Russian state, and it presents Nicholas as some kind of hero who saves Russia from the prospect of civil war and also from the destruction of the state. And it's very conservative interpretation because in the film, the emperor, or is portrayed as realizing that change must evolve organically and gradually, like from within. And that the Decemberists are mistaken because they think that they can import foreign IDs and install them in Russia to establish a Western kind of republic or constitutional monarchy. So that's one part of the story that is interesting, the portrayal of the emperor. But then we have also the contrast or the portrayal of the Decembrist leaders. And I mean, the Decemberist movement was not unified. They had. I mean, they had different ideas, and some were more radical, some were more moderate. And I think that also comes out a little bit in the film, that some of the leaders are portrayed as fanatical, while others are portrayed as foolish romantics. But they. All the Decembrists are all seen as. Or the problem that they portray in the film is that the Decemberists aspire to introduce alien ideas to Russia that threatens to undermine the unity between the Tsar and the people, I would say. So that's my interpretation. What did you think?

[Aaron Weinocht]

Yeah, I. I found myself at various points really scratching my head about the. About the film, because on the one hand, it's kind of hard to. It's hard to make a film. It's hard for a radical nationalist government to make a film about nationalists where the nationalists are the villains and not the heroes. Right.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron Weinocht]

It's a very Difficult problem. And so, I don't know, I thought. I thought a lot of the. A lot of what I saw as the problems in the film basically arose from that basic tension. Right. That, in theory, I can imagine, at least for the constitutional monarchist wing of the Decembrists, I can imagine the Putin regime making a pro Decembrist film, you know, where they're the. The heroes and. And because, I mean, it's not like anybody wants Nicholas the First back. At least if they do, they don't say so out loud.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

No, that's true, but. But it's still. The fact that they wanted a revolt is of course, not something that they can promote, the state can promote.

[Aaron Weinocht]

So, yeah, yeah, I thought we'd maybe finish up by talking about this because, of course, the character of Russian nationalism these days, that something is on a lot of people's minds and just has some unique historical characteristics. And that film is kind of an interesting historical way of looking into current events. In a way, there's that. So I don't know, it's. It's. Whatever its historical value, it's certainly worth watching for its insight into, you know, contemporary state thinking about Russian nationalism. That's how it seemed to me, anyway.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, but you're right that it's very complicated for them, for the Russian states to. How to formulate their nationalist in. Because they don't want to be ethnically nationalistic and they don't want to be too. I mean, it's very. It's tricky. And.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Yeah, lots of. I suppose you could say lots of political minefields, I guess.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Exactly, exactly.

[Aaron Weinocht]

So, yeah, maybe last. Last. Before we knock off our. Our chat here, I. I wanted to ask you about something much different. I thought that one of the most interesting sections of your book was your coverage of the Decembrists in exile and in particular, their wives. I thought that was a really interesting section. I knew nothing about that going. Yeah, that was all brand new to me. What did you see as the significance of that period of the ones who weren't hanged? Right. The ones who went off into exile? What's the significance of that in particular, that their. Their wives go along with them?

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Well, to me, it was the experiences of the wives that was interested that fascinated me because they're usually just portrayed as coming along because of marital duty, female loyalty and so on. But when you read their letters and diaries and so on, you can see that there are different reasons for them to follow their husbands. And of course, one of them is economical, practical, but there are Also, other reasons. There are. I mean, reasons of religious duty. And in some cases, I know that the prison priest approached the wives to try to compel them to. Or to follow their husbands because of. I mean. And that was also an important part of it, I think. And then we have the more romantic reasons. This was a time when romanticism was, of course, very influential. And you can see that in the correspondence between the wives and husbands that romantic love was clearly expressed in these letters. And that was another reason for them to go. And then, as with Maria Volkonskia, it was also the sense of being a romantic heroine that made her follow her husband to Siberia because she really appreciated romantic literature especially. She was especially influenced by Byron. And that affected her a lot. But then. So that's one part that interested me. But then also the way that the women are so resourceful and brave when they both. When they traveled to Siberia, but also, of course, in exile, and how they. They assisted the exiles with a lot of things. And they, for instance, they wrote all their letters to relatives because they were not. The Decembers were not allowed to write themselves. So the women wrote the letters, but also practical things that they made the prison authorities change things for the better. Several things. For instance, installing windows in the prison, which were not there from the beginning. And then what is also, I think, fascinating is the kind of community they created, both the women and the men, they cooperated and they tried to. I mean, those who had more money paid for things that. I mean, so that everyone could, for instance, get books and journals and medical instruments and medicine and so on, with the help of the women, of course, because they couldn't have done it by themselves. So there are a lot of aspects in exile that is interesting. I think also one fact that is that the community that they created made them stronger. And also that they could continue talking about these political ideas that they had and develop them. Some did, some did not, but. Yeah, so there are several things that are interesting.

[Aaron Weinocht]

When I was reading that kind of concluding section of your book there, where you were talking about the period in exile, it sort of struck me that there's kind of this. Well, it's almost a tradition. Not only is there a tradition of Russian radicalism, but there's also a tradition of going to Siberia for it as well. You know, think of that famous painting of, you know, Stalin in exile and, you know, just almost like a, I don't know, rite of passage or something like that. I don't know. You think that. You think that or, you know, the Final scene from Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment, right, where he, you know, heads off to Siberia and, you know, there's. The woman follows him right there. I mean, you think that I'm again, thinking back to the ways in which the Decemberist revolt has been significant in Russian history overall. You think that. Can we say that there's a tradition of, well, getting sent off to Siberia is just what happens to you, and we can see it kind of starting here in some ways.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

In some ways, Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's interesting that, for instance, both Navalny's and Khodorkovsky's wives were called Dikebristka. That is, at Decembrist's wives, they were referred to as Decembrist wives. They followed their. Yeah, they followed their husbands to Siberia.

[Aaron Weinocht]

And that's why I did not know that.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

It'S ongoing.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we could wrap up then by concluding that whatever we disagree about, everybody can agree that authoritarianism is still an issue of concern.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Definitely. Yeah, that's.

[Aaron Weinocht]

And likely to stay that way. So I suspect that, you know, we were talking about the recent movie that probably analogies with the Decemberists are going to continue in future generations. No doubt.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Yeah, Yeah, I agree. And it's, I mean, still, when you talk to Russian Russians, they, they are. I mean, at least those in my generation, they grew up with Decemberists as heroes in, in school. So, yeah, still, it's. It's. Yeah, but not, not the, the younger generations, of course. It's. It's a different matter.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Well, well, thanks for. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me about the December. It's. It'd been a long time since I read about him. It was nice to kind of have a. Have fresher on the occasion of 200 years.

[Susanna Rabo Edling]

Thank. And thank you for having me.

[Aaron Weinocht]

Sure, sure. So thanks for. Thanks for the chat and we will sign off here. You can't count on much these days. No way, Jim. This is incredible, but you can always count on Sundays with the NFL on CBS and Paramount. Plus, here we go. This time for real. Watch your local NFL game live every Sunday all the way through the AFC Championship game, and he's in for a touchdown. Visit paramountplus.com NFL to get started today and count on Sundays with the NFL on CBS and Paramount. Plus.