Sven Völker, "The Museum of Shapes" (Cicada Books, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

New Books Network
Episode: Sven Völker, "The Museum of Shapes" (Cicada Books, 2025)
Host: Mel Rosenberg
Guest: Professor Sven Völker
Date: October 8, 2025

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Overview

This episode features a conversation between host Mel Rosenberg and German author, illustrator, designer, and university professor Sven Völker, focusing on his new book, The Museum of Shapes (Cicada Books, 2025). They delve into the inspirations behind the book, the intersection of concrete art and children's literature, Sven’s unconventional journey to picture books, his philosophy as a creator and teacher, and his students' successes. The tone is engaging, warm, and candid, offering insights for aspiring authors, illustrators, and anyone interested in how ideas and creativity can be fostered in the world of children's books.

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Main Themes

• The Creation and Concept of "The Museum of Shapes"
• Concrete Art and Visual Storytelling
• Sven’s Artistic Journey: From Graphic Design to Picture Books
• Teaching Picture Book Creation at University
• The Nature of Creative Ideas
• Gender & Diversity in Picture Book Publishing
• the Process of Publishing and Collaboration

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Sven Völker and the New Book

[04:23–06:48]

• Sven Völker is introduced as an author, illustrator, designer, and professor.
• The new book The Museum of Shapes is born from a request by the Museum of Concrete Art in Ingolstadt, Germany.
• The book mimics a museum visit, guiding young readers through the evolution of shapes, using characters Max (a dog) and Alma (a curator inspired by Bauhaus toy designer Alma Siedhoff-Buscher).
• Sven emphasizes the intent to avoid "art" as a defined term:

  "I wanted the word art to be nowhere in it... It’s really about the beauty of forms." (13:16, Sven Völker)

2. The Book’s Structure and Artistic Philosophy

[08:08–13:49]

• The book's design, from the endpapers (Forzatz/Forzatz) to the journey from dots to three-dimensional and "wiggly" shapes, is described in detail.
• Importance is placed on personal engagement—readers are invited to pick favorite shapes and notice the imperfections from real life:

  "You never have simple shapes in reality. Some shapes are in our heads ... a circle can be half a circle, and half a circle can turn into something like a sunset." (09:41, Sven Völker)

• The project’s dual life: it inhabits museum spaces as well as bookstores, accessible beyond its physical origin.

3. Publishing Journey and Recognition

[12:20–16:31]

• Sven discusses how the museum’s proposal evolved to broader publication by reaching out to publishers, notably Cicada Books.
• He appreciates Cicada’s understanding of both art and commerce:

  "I've not met many people that have this foot in both worlds and kind of work with it and not just try to sell books or just try to be arty-farty." (14:01, Sven Völker)

• Previous successes are mentioned, including The Million Dots, recognized by the New York Times as one of the 10 best picture books of 2019.

4. Sven’s (Non-)Traditional Artistic Background

[16:59–23:36]

• Sven did not grow up drawing or immersed in "classical" illustration but was drawn to music, playing drums in numerous bands.
• He only later shifted towards graphic design and eventually picture books, making his journey non-linear.
• The influence of international picture books during childhood:

  "You grow up with Maurice Sendak and Richard Scarry... and Tomi Ungerer, of course." (22:03, Sven Völker)

5. Entering and Exiting Illustration; Facing Creative Struggles

[23:36–24:47]

• Sven left illustration in art school due to self-doubt about his drawing skills compared to peers. Photography and design became alternate creative outlets.
• Emphasizes now not caring about tools or technical perfection:

  "I don’t care about tools—use a stick and a little mud, that's okay to do illustration." (24:11, Sven Völker)

6. First Book, Collaboration, and Learning

[24:47–27:44]

• The launch of his first picture book, A Little Black Spot on the Sun Today (based on Sting’s song), marked his entry into published children’s books.
• The creative (and legal) process of adapting Sting’s work into a book is detailed.
• Early works reflect Sven’s minimalist visual vocabulary:

  "At the beginning of my picture book career, I couldn’t even draw more than a triangle." (25:28, Sven Völker)

• The importance of inviting readers on a journey, rather than seeking to solely impress:

  "You can make everybody be stunned... but you can also invite the audience to join you on that journey." (26:38, Sven Völker)

7. Overcoming Barriers and the Role of Agents

[27:44–29:49]

• Sven’s struggles after first publication:

  "I've been really struggling for three or four years to get my second book published with a good publisher... Maybe making picture books is not what you want to do." (15:51, Sven Völker)

• He now works with multiple publishers and has a non-traditional agent.
• Expresses a proactive, open approach to finding publishing opportunities, especially internationally.

8. Teaching: The Picture Book Lab

[29:49–38:50]

• Sven teaches at the university level, leading a "Picture Book Lab," where students create full book concepts each semester.
• His teaching method:
  • Weekly sessions: start by reading picture books aloud.
  • Encourage students to tackle both writing and illustration.
  • Focus on developing one’s own ideas, regardless of illustration skill level:

    "I force them to write their books and illustrate their books... it has to be your idea, your concept." (37:01, Sven Völker)

• The approach is structured but creative, with the goal of students producing publishable dummies for events like the Bologna Children’s Book Fair.

9. On Ideas and the Creative Process

[40:05–41:44]

• Sven discusses cultivating ideas as a skill, not a mystery:

  "There’s an idea every 20 seconds or every day or every half day or every hour, every conversation, every visit to the museum..." (41:22, Sven Völker)

• Importance of risk, process, and documentation (e.g., carrying a notebook).

10. The Realities of Publication & Gender Dynamics

[45:43–48:33]

• Gender question: Most students are women, but successful published illustrators at book fairs are predominantly men.
• Sven believes pay inequality is a more pressing problem than publication opportunities:

  "Women are paid worse, have worse contracts than men in this business... But I believe it's a very open world in which anybody can contribute." (46:55, Sven Völker)

11. Admissions, Student Support, and Course Access

[49:09–50:39]

• Entry into the Picture Book Lab is selective, based on portfolios and initial ideas.
• Graduates are welcome to return and contribute, helping foster a multi-generational learning environment.

12. Authors vs. Author-Illustrators

[51:31–53:47]

• Sven respects authors who choose the concise format of picture books:

  "It’s like writing poetry ... only 10 words, and that should be it." (52:07, Sven Völker)

• Finds it essential, personally, to combine words and images.
• Admits he is open to adaptation/remixing existing texts, as with his upcoming project based on Pinocchio.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Authenticity and Artistic Growth:

  "As an author or artist, you can make everybody stunned and impressed ... but you can also invite the audience to join your journey." (26:38, Sven Völker)

• On the Role of Ideas:

  "There’s an idea every 20 seconds or every day ... Every visit to the museum, every film you look at, there’s ideas. And you just have to see them, document them." (41:22, Sven Völker)

• On Picture Book Possibility:

  "What I really do is I work on books pretty fast ... For me, it’s more important to stay relaxed and easy even if the deadline approaches." (42:06, Sven Völker)

• On Teaching Approach:

  "I let them do the work and then I try to steal as many ideas that are floating around that place as I can." (36:16, Sven Völker)

• On Diversity and Fairness:

  "There’s definitely an unfair way of paying ... women are paid worse, have worse contracts than men in this business. That’s not okay. That needs to change." (46:55, Sven Völker)

• Memorable Host Banter:

  "You are the personification of [the book] The Dot." (26:31, Mel Rosenberg)

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Important Timestamps

• Intro & Book Presentation: [04:23–08:08]
• Book Concept & Process: [08:08–13:49]
• Publishing & Cicada Books: [14:01–16:31]
• Artistic Beginnings & Childhood: [16:59–23:36]
• First Books & Collaboration: [24:47–27:44]
• On Ideas & Creativity: [40:05–41:44]
• Course Description (Picture Book Lab): [36:30–38:50]
• Gender in Picture Books: [45:43–48:33]
• Authors v. Author-Illustrators: [51:31–53:47]
• Upcoming Projects: [52:59–53:47]

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Conclusion

Sven Völker’s episode offers a vibrant look at the intersection of minimal, concrete art and emotive children’s storytelling. By combining practical advice, honesty about creative blocks, and reflections on community (both in publishing and education), Sven personifies the open-mindedness and evolving spirit of contemporary picture books. Aspiring creators will find inspiration in his journey from "not an illustrator" to an acclaimed voice in the field—and in the grace with which he welcomes continual learning from peers and students alike.

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Find out more about Sven Völker and the Picture Book Lab at his website or visit in person/online if you’re interested in illustration or children’s literature!

Transcript

[Mel Rosenberg]

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[Professor Sven Foerker]

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[Professor Sven Foerker]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Ladies and gentlemen. You know that I. I always get excited when I have these videocast podcasts, but today I am super excited. And I've waited for months and months and months to interview this incredibly gifted, talented, versatile, kind, generous and very busy person. And the reason he's busy is because he is an author, an illustrator, a designer and a university professor. So will you welcome to the New Books Network, Professor Svenker. Thank you. Did I pronounce your name right?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, very close. Sven Foerker. But that's totally fine as long as the umlaut, which is difficult always to write. And I didn't have the umlaut for many years and then I took it back and now it's on all the books and then it disappears again. So that's kind of the world.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm going to suggest to you after the show that we work on your name. Yeah. Because I spent two hours and didn't get it right.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, like an F. You have like an F. It's not. I mean, the V is kind of whatever.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's not. It's not the F for me, it's the U.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

The U. Yeah. Well, it's a difficult part Wouldn't it be boring?

[Mel Rosenberg]

I don't know. You know, people are. I'm willing to invest hours in learning how to pronounce people's names. But you know, regular Joe Smith, right Is he may not.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

It's okay. But poor Joe Smith would be disappointed if we say that's only regular.

[Mel Rosenberg]

He might give up at Sven. So can I call you Sven? I'm not going to call fast and freeze the whole show.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

No, no, no, no.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Call me. You call me Mel.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

And I'm not that busy as you said. I mean it's very. It was very nice and flattering to hear all that, but it kind of full of things and I'm so happy.

[Mel Rosenberg]

To be here today, my friend. We met in April at the Bologna Children's Book Fair, which is a marvelous place and we were sitting on a bench and you were eating a sandwich and I was very jealous because you had food and you didn't get the hint. But we became friends anyway. And it's taken us how long? It's six months, but here we are. So, ladies and gentlemen, I have person here who is an award winning author illustrator, but also teaches picture book writing and illustration. And I've seen his students work and it is amazing. So before I forget, I'll just introduce myself. I am Mel Rosenberg. I am the host of the Children's Literature Network of the. No, the Children's Literature Channel of the YUKOX Network. I should get that right, you know, you remember 198. Sven.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Well, it's your channel. You should get it right.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Maybe by 200 of the new Books Network. Sven. So first of all, we're celebrating a brand new book of yours which launched just last month. Now's the time to talk about it and show it to everybody. I'm assuming it's square or rectangular. A book about shapes, the Museum of Shapes. Please introduce it.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, Museum of Shapes is like the latest idea to turn forms into picture books. And I think what makes this book kind of special is because it was like it was a requested project by a museum here in Germany, in Ingolstadt. They have a museum for concrete art, which is not art about concrete, but it's about art that is coming from mathematics. So in simple words, or in a very uncomplete definition would be to look at the beauty of math, to decide on a logic and then turn that into something that we would like to look at, for example, squares or triangles or circles. And they asked me if I would like to make a book for the occasion of the new building. And then I said, of course I would like to, because Max Bil, for example, or Eugen Gomringer, the concrete poet who just passed away 100 years at the age of 100 last month. That, you know, they are some of my biggest heroes in terms of art and abstract illustration and so on. And when they asked me to make a picture book, I said, yes, definitely. And then it turned into a really wonderful project. And I thought, I never believed that this could work out as it did because it doesn't have a real story. It doesn't have, like a classic picture book narrative. It really is like a visit to a museum that starts with a little dot and then gradually turns into more complex forms. Looks at them from different angles. And we as readers, we follow a little dog with the name of Max and the curator of the museum, Alma, and we just walk with them through the museum. And then by the end of the day, there will be the opening of a new exhibition. So it's a very simple but nice idea, I think.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Is Alma named after a real curator?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

No, after an artist or one of the students of the Bauhaus, Alma Sidhoff Buscher. She designed toys. The most famous one is like a little ship toy, which is like wooden elements that you put together to a sailing boat. And as a young woman, she had children. And then the teachers at the Bauhaus said, you no longer can be an artist. Now you have to be a mother. This is how it was like 100 years ago. And then she kind of ended her design and art career at the age, I think, of 27, really young, and then never turned back into it again. And she died because of a bomb at the end of World War II. Very early also. So it's kind of a super sad story. But then on the other hand, she's like one of the important women figures that we know from the baus.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Fantastic. But this program is about you, Sven.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Okay, fine.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So show us the book.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

The book?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Where is it? Hang on.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Sven, we've been rehearsing. You're supposed to have your books ready.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I don't hear you one second.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I said you're supposed to have your books ready.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, I know. This is it. Sorry. This is the Museum of Shapes. And as you can see, the shapes are like Bubb out of the building. And then you start with. Which is, I think, always the most important page in a picture book, which is like the opening, the end papers, the front end papers.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Here in Israel, we call it Forzatz.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah. In Germany, we call it Forzatz.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You see, we have something in common.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

So much. And the museum, then it starts, you know, to get into it. And this is Almerheim the dog. Max and Dave very. At the beginning we talk about where the forms arrive at the. Hang on, I'll have to push it a little bit down so it's easier for me. So the shapes arrive. I think zoom is zooming in all the time.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No, we can see it well.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

And then there's like the most simplest form is a little dot here. And this little dot, if you connect two dots, it becomes a line. And if you have two lines and have an angle, and if you have three lines and three angles and three dots, it becomes a triangle. And then there's not just triangles but squares and all kinds of. Here, this is the German version. Fehr egg, funf egg, sieben egg and so on. And then Alma and Max are thinking about shapes. They're collecting them, they're sorting them. And I think what's important point is also that the reader finds the shapes that he really likes, the shapes that he prefers to other shapes that he thinks about. What I like about a shape, for example, a circle can be half a circle and half a circle can turn into something like a sunset. And the book becomes a three dimensional object suddenly. And you never have simple shapes in reality. Shapes in reality are always a combination of shape. I mean, it's really hard to find a perfect square or perfect circle. Some shapes are in our heads, like this beautiful, tasty orange. And then if I say apple or if I say orange, you think of something and I think of something. And it always depends on what we have in our minds. And we have three dimensional shapes and they kind of start to become interesting because the sun casts a shadow suddenly. If a shape is three dimensional, then you can get into details and become very nitty gritty and very clever and talk about the pyramids and the shapes the pyramids are standing on or the other versions of three dimensional objects. And then we take this little X course into the world of wiggly shapes, shapes that are crazy and a little stupid, and find out that most of the shapes, like a cooked. Like a cooked spaghetti or like a long black hair, really doesn't follow many rules and have their own little logics and worlds to them. And then the last part of the book is more or less about Alma creating an exhibition, thinking of what objects to put together and what shapes turn out to become like the stars of that opening night where people arrive, people that are only like circles and then it ends here and it's actually the skyline, if you could say so, of little town Ingolstadt, where the museum is based. And the fun thing is that these books. Now here's the English version here also. So the book pops up in different museums and it suddenly is like in the Museum of Modern Art or in the Tate Modern in London or in Switzerland. And people. This is like the book about that museum.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, no, but. So here's what I don't understand. The museum in Germany came to you and they said, why don't you make a book about our museum? Did they say, well, we'll buy so and so many books, or did they say, go to Sakata and make a deal with them and then we'll then come back?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I said, well, they said, make us a book. And I said, yeah, but how many books do you need? I mean, you need a few hundred for your museum shop. And I said, that's kind of boring. And then I said, let's speak to publishers. And then. And publishers love that idea. And they, I mean, they like the idea of the book, but they also like the idea of having something that is more like a hybrid, that is not just something that lives in the publishing world, but also lives in the exhibition world and lives in that specific space. But as I said, I mean, if you buy this one in a. In a museum in London, you will have no idea where that comes from. And it doesn't matter, actually.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Well, I mean, you will now.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

You will probably now. Yeah, there's a little sentence in the end, but one last, I think important thing about the concept of this book is that I wanted the word art to be nowhere in it, really. There's not one place where the word art really is needed. And I didn't want to differentiate between what's art and what's not art or what's like high art and low art and design and art and all that. That's not what it's about. It's really about the beauty of phones.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So that's wonderful. And your publisher of choice is Cicada in the uk. Not the biggest publisher in the world, but very high quality books, definitely.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

And they are what makes them. I mean, I say they, but I mean they're really Zigiana or. And she's like this really wonderful, wonderful person that totally understands the world of art and picture books, but she also understands the world of publishing and selling. And she really. I have not met many people that have this foot in both worlds and Kind of work with it and not just try to sell books or just try to be arty farty. But nobody is interested in buying these books. And that's what makes them am a real special publisher. But I'm also working with other publishers. My new next books are coming with Ra Metallic in Italian. So I think a good thing about publishing picture books is that you don't have to stick to one publisher. And I would never do that. I always like have 3, 4, 5 publishers in my little.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm happy to hear that. But up until now, most of your books have been with Cicada. You have one with Felder from last year, the Piano, which I really love.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Very small publisher also.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah, that's okay. But Cicada manages to sell in North America. And your book the Million Dots, which is maybe up until now your best known and your best selling book, was cited as one of the 10 best picture books for 2019 by none other than the New York Times. So for a author illustrator from Germany, publishing in the uk, that is a huge, huge honor.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, that was a huge honor and a huge relief as well because it was only my second picture books and my first picture book, as you probably know, it was published by Noel Suit, no sad books. And it was a book together with a musician, Sting. And I thought it would be easy to get into this world of picture books, but it was super difficult. And I've been really struggling for three or maybe four years to get my second book published or published with a good publisher. And then I kind of thought maybe making picture books is not really what you want to do, what you have.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Sven, let's roll back now because now we're going to talk about Sven, the human being, the child who became the professor of illustration. So where did you grow up? What were you like as a kid? How were you drawn to art? And I also do not like distinguishing art from illustration. I do not understand the difference difference. So maybe you do. But tell us, what were you like as a child?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I grew up in South Germany in a very small village with a very big church. And I was like this little minister in the church. And it was a very, very kind of boring place. And I wanted to escape as far away as possible. And took me to Bremen, North Germany and then to the art school. And the first day in art school was really exciting because I went directly to the ill class and I thought like, I'd be like, I'd be the best illustrator. I would be making picture books. And I was like only 22 years or so and then I stood there or I sat there next to all these other young students and they were all able to draw and I had no idea how to draw and I.

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[Mel Rosenberg]

One second, Sven. We're getting ahead. You know, you mentioned Bremen, which is a very important place in the history of children's books, as is Germany in general. But you didn't say anything about your childhood. Were you drawing from a young age?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I wasn't.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Did you fall in love with picture books? Are the picture books you grew up on different?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Had? No. I think it's important to understand that I'm not an illustrator. I'm not a visual artist as as many others are. And I don't come from that world. I really, of course I did art and I made paintings and I made graphic design, all that. But I'm not an illustrator and I would never say I'm an illustrator. I've never done one illustration job for a magazine or something. And really I only made picture books. And as a young child, the last thing I would be doing would be drawing. I was playing the drums. Actually, my career would have been one in music if I wouldn't have been so unsuccessful all the time.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And me too. What kind of music?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

All kinds of music. If you live in a small village or a small city, you know, and you're the drummer and you own. And you have a car or a driving license and your parents have a car, then you are the one that plays in all these bands. I've played in big bands. I played in punk bands, I played in metal bands, I played in rock bands. I played in, I think roughly at the age of 18. I played at, I would say, six or seven bands at the same time, but they were all unsuccessful. None of them were anywhere getting near the record deal or something. So at some point, art school was, for me, the kind of safe escape into a world that probably would give.

[Mel Rosenberg]

As a young child. Did you grow up on certain picture books? Do children in Germany grow up on different picture books than, let's say, American or Israeli or. Or British kids? The reason I'm asking this is because of your history of the Grimm Brothers and the somewhat.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I think there is that history, and I totally understand that you admire that, but we. And I admire.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Oh, no, I don't admire. I'm just saying.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I'm saying it's like. It's as if it's like music. If you say like Germany and music, and you have like, all these.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But, Sven, Sven, hold on, hold on. There's a lot of things about the Grimm Brothers that I do not admire. They're very anti Semitic, but not only anti Semitic, misogynic for various cultures that weren't theirs. But let's face it, the whole, let's say, 19th, early 20th century, it's all based on their lore, what we inherited from them. Now, go ahead.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, but it's not what you grow up as a child with. You grow up with Maurice Sendak and Richard Scarry, for example. I mean, I really dug all the American picture books that were near me. Or Tomi Ungawa, of course. I always loved this kind of really scary books that he made and that were really kind of tweaky. And you never understood. I mean, he also. He was a. He was a French man, German, kind of Elsa's background, but he wasn't American at that time. At the same time, he was living in New York and he was struggling there. And I think these books tell a lot about his really weird way of looking at the world. And that's what I really loved. I mean, that took me there, and I thought I would be able to learn drawing in art school. But the fact was that the art school expected Me to already know how to draw. I wasn't prepared for that. And so I became a graphic designer. I mean, to make a long. Long story short, it took me 20 years as a professional graphic designer. I did. I had like, a design company in Berlin. I made the corporate branding for Suzuki Motor Company, a Japanese company. And I made huge projects in graphic design as a graphic designer. And then after, I don't know, 20 years and being a professor on that topic as well for many, many years, then suddenly my first picture book opened that door. And the first year, 10 years ago, when I went to the lockdown.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Sven, hold on. You keep getting ahead of us here.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Okay?

[Mel Rosenberg]

You said your first course was in illustration.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And this was the dream. I left. Why?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Because I didn't expect me to be able to catch up with all the other perfect illustrators. And then I went, actually. Then the next day I went to photography class. And then there were all these men back then sitting around the table with their huge bags full of cameras and all these lenses and things. And I was like, I had my little Minolta X300, very small, cheap camera, and that was it. And I didn't have the confidence. I mean, today I wouldn't care. Shit. I mean, it wouldn't matter to me at all. I don't. I mean. And I don't care about tools. Use a stick and a little mud, then that would be okay for me to do illustration.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You had a very successful career as a graphic designer, a corporate graphic designer, but your first picture book didn't come out of nowhere. Something must have happened to you.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a. I mean, this is my. I don't have it here. I have it there again, sorry.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So much for rehearsing.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

This was like the first picture book. A little black spot on the sun today. And I mean, it's also a story that I could tell in half an hour, but I guess we don't have that time.

[Mel Rosenberg]

We have 20 seconds. What I'm interested in is how the copyright with Sting worked.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Well, I sent a box with my illustrations to his management in New York, and then nothing happened. And then a few weeks later, I received an email saying, sting really love those illustrations and he wants us to make a book. And then I said, okay. And then I asked my neighbor who was an agent in the music industry, and she kind of, you know, got the right question solved, which was more difficult than, I mean, expected. If Sting likes it, I like it, we make a book. What's the problem? But it turned out, it worked out and it turned into a really, really beautiful book. And. And I mean, the special thing about this is that it only. One second, it only uses triangles. I mean, this is like an excellent. You know, this is like the proof that at the beginning of my picture book career, I couldn't even draw more than a triangle. You know, this is like all triangles. It's all triangles or combination of triangles. It's nothing else. And from there, a million dots was lots of circles. And now with my new books, as I showed you, I can even draw stars and walls and dogs and all these things. And.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Good for you. But, you know, there's a famous book called the Dot, and you are the personification of that book.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

And I think you have to. You don't. As an. As a. I mean, to be serious, a little bit as an author or an artist, you. You can make everybody be stunned and impressed by what you are able to, but you can also invite the audience to join you on that journey. And many artists today do that with social media. They invite everybody in their journey, and then every cup of coffee becomes part of the process. I don't do that. What I really do is I work on books pretty fast, and now I have a very high speed of making books. My books come out now every six months. I have a new book at the moment, which is like, incredible, but it's also good for me to learn and get one step further. So, I mean, they're not bestsellers. Of course not. But they are helping me to get further in the process of becoming what I want to be as a picture book artist.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So let's talk about the difficult years. So your first book came out beautiful, Sting, and then you had this hiatus of two or three years until your next book. Do you have an agent? Do German author illustrators have agents? How does it work?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I have an agent, but she's not specialized in picture books. She's more like in literature and music. So she's not really the classic picture book artist agent.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So how do German authors, you know, you write a manuscript and you send it directly to the. To the publishers.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, I have some publishers that know my work, that like my work, and I talk with them and I meet them whenever in Bologna or here. And whenever I have something, I show it to them and I really say, yeah, I show it to everybody. And, you know, everybody can say, and the first who says yes and gives me a good contract, I would be happy to do it because I don't believe in making things complicated. I'M one of those persons who likes to say yes and try something and be open and be generous and try to find out how things work. And I believe that also it's a way to come up with good and better books. I'm not saying that my books are better. I'm just saying that they are taking a risk and they are not on the safe side, especially in Germany. Most of the publishers in Germany are really playing it on the very safe side. They are not interested in taking risks, in being very abstract, very modern, very difficult. And that I find that super, super boring. And that's why I'm trying to work with publishers from abroad. And that's where Bologna comes in again, where it's so helpful to have all these people from all over the world at one place, in one bar, in one restaurant. And you can talk to everybody and say, I mean, you do that, you're perfect at doing that. You speak to everybody. And it's like the way to get on the next level.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's the best way to move forward in anything, really. So it took three years, and now you have a series of books, one coming out every six months. And it's wonderful. And I'll ask you in a few minutes what's coming out, if you can share. But now I want to segue to your career as a. A university professor. You also have a PhD. You also teach, you have a. I.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Don'T have a PhD. I don't have a PhD. I have a master. Okay, I don't have a.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So I, I gave you an honorary.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

PhD, which is nice, but it's. Yeah. In the art world, that's really not the, the normal way of getting to the professorship. But yeah, when I was, When I was 27, I had like two things happening at the same time. One was that Suzuki asked me to design the global corporate design. I didn't even have a design company. I was like me, my brother, and a very small studio in the middle of Berlin. So this was like an incredibly huge project. And the worst fear we had was that Suzuki would come to Berlin and see that we only have that small studio. And the second thing that happened was that a professor that I knew called me and said, sven, do you want to do some kind of guest professor teaching? And I said, yes, of course. And then I went there and that guest professorship turned into a real professorship at the age of 28. And then I was like the youngest professor at an art school in Germany at that time. And at that time I had the feeling, yeah, that's how it should work. This is like how a career works. Twenty years later, I had the feeling I had an upside down career path, which was like not the normal way to get to know what you're doing is when you start with success and then have to keep up with that success. I mean, it's nothing, nothing terrible, but it's really something that always turned or had a great impact on how I work and how I teach and how I talk. When I was 28 at art school, most of my students were at the same age or older than I was. So I would never ever had the idea to say, I know everything and you have to listen to me. That was never my style until now. It is isn't. Or when I was, you know, as a 27 year old working with corporate branding managers worldwide, I would never had this we make big business thing. It was always like, let's be cool, let's be the coolest in the pack. And I think that really made a huge impact. But after 10 years in the corporate world and in the art school world, I thought this is not, this is not what I want to do the rest of my life. And then the story about this book, it has a lot to do with my child becoming ill and becoming then good again after many years. But at that time it was really complicated. And then you question everything and you think what makes sense, what's important and what do you really care about and whatnot. And then picture books, I think, think is not just something that is really a good way to create art that makes sense, but it's also something and a format and a medium that works very well for me. Telling a story on 32 pages, very simple to a young audience. So you don't have to be too serious. You can be like crazy. But also to an old audience because there's more or less all the time there's an adult sitting next to the child, child trying to read that what you've been creating. So I think.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And also children don't buy the books.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah. And that's why I really like that genre, if you can say. And then I think the final moment where I thought this is the right decision was when I went to Bologna and I saw all those really nice people, because in the corporate world or in the university world, people are not that nice all the time. But in picture books they are so nice. It's really like, that's only friends. I've never met a terrible person.

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[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it because, you know, thinking how many people I've met and interviewed and people in this genre are incredibly nice, kind of generous. And you talked about your church in your small town and for me, children, books. It's my temple, it's my synagogue, it's my calling in life. Now, it took me more years than it took you, but still to break it. So tell us now when you began this amazing course of, of teaching young, talented people to create their own picture books.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

The reason I started two years ago was that one of my students who did her master's degree with me, with Lilia Brankovic, and she made the book Grand Hotel of Feelings, which is super successful. I mean, many people have seen that it's like translated in more than 30 languages. It's really a bestseller. And she made that as her degree project with me in university. And then at that point I thought, if she can do that, there might be a second person or a third person among my students who could do that. And then I thought, yes, I will be making it. Because until then I always thought I cannot teach children's books if I'm just about to learn it myself. I'm not a professor in children's books at that time. But now I realize that was stupid, of course, because of course I am. And of course I can teach that and I can learn a lot from my students as well, which is honestly what I do most of the time. I let them do the work and then I try to steal as many ideas that are floating around that place as I can.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I would love to take that course. And we talked a little bit in Bologna. I also had the experience of, of teaching picture book writing, but together with a professor of illustration who was very talented. So how do you teach? Is there a curriculum? Students, come tell us a little bit about this. It's intriguing. People can go to the website of your students work and after one course they're creating beautiful picture Books.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, we have a very strict agenda, to be honest. It's like we start now, now next week, and then we have like 12 or 14 weeks until the end of the semester. We meet Every Tuesday at 10 o'. Clock. The first thing we do is I bring 10 or 15 picture books from my collection and then I put them on the table. And then I ask the students to pick one. And then always a pair of two students. One will read the book to the other one because I think it's really important. As adults, we only look at picture books and we think we know what they're about, but we have never read them. And reading the picture book is a complete different experience. So I force them to read the book. Then 20 minutes later, we meet again. We talk about the books. Some of the books have certain things to learn from. Others are like, you know, old, or they have a strange gender perspective, or they're a little bit racist or whatever. So as you said, there's a lot to learn, even from the bad picture books. But I have a lot of books. And then I bring them. And then the second part of the day, the longer, the bigger part of the day, we are working together. So people sit in this room. Everybody brings his own stuff. Either it's analog and painting, or it's digital. And we work and I sit next to the students. I would talk to them. We make, like, little presentations. We have guests, we talk to people. And then after 12 weeks, each of the students has to have a complete picture book ready. And I also, I force them to write their books and illustrate their books. I say, because many people say, yeah, I have a. I have a text that I would like to illustrate. And I say, yeah, it's nice, but not here. Here you have to make a complete picture book, even if it's badly written or if it's, I don't know, whatever. But it has to be your idea, your concept, if it. If it has text, your text and your pictures.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Sven, I'm so sorry. I didn't know you 10 years ago when I was doing this, because from my experience, the illustration students in Israel, right, they bridle, they complain when you to say that they need to come up with their own idea and write their own story because it gets them way outside their comfort zone. Give them a course where they illustrate Little Riding Hood or the Musicians of Bremen. They're happy campers. It's like chocolates. You say, now I want you to write your own story. But when you get them to do it, their brain yeah.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

And I mean, honestly, picture books don't need a lot of text. I mean, most of the picture books have less than 250 words. And many picture books have no words at all, or just numbers or just dots or whatever. So I think you don't have to have a writing. As an author, you would have to know how to work with words. But as a picture book writer, that's kind of not the most important thing. What's much more important is that you have an idea. What part of the story is that? What you want to tell? I mean, what. Because it's only like one idea. A picture book was like one or two ideas.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Hold on, Sven. Okay, now, we've been talking about all kinds of interesting things for 37 minutes, and now we've reached the $64 million question, which is the idea. And I don't have to tell you this. Oftentimes when you have an idea, the story almost writes itself. The biggest difficulty that I think we have is getting the great ideas. Do you teach the students how to come up with great ideas?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I think it's nothing that you can teach and then repeat, but it's something that you can understand at some point or experience yourself at some point, so that that something that you see in front of you turns into an idea. And this is the most beautiful experience. As an artist or as any person, if you have something, you look at it, and then suddenly in your brain, those two things connect to something else. And I think the only way to learn that or improve that is to just do it and do it more often. And the worst thing that you can do is like, think, I wouldn't have a good idea. And this one idea must be it. And then I work for weeks, and then there must be, at the end of those long weeks, there must be that idea. I think there's an idea every 20 seconds or every day or every half day or every hour, every conversation, every visit to the museum, every film you look at, there's ideas. And you just have to see them, document them. That's why I need a notebook, for example. It's just like to keep things.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And I've written down. I've written three ideas while we're talking.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, perfect. And there might be one that turns into a picture book and probably not. Probably, yes. And then you have to make that book. And then you have to really be so self assured that you go to your publisher and say, yeah, I have this idea. I spoke to Leo Timmers with my students. Leo Timmerson, the Belgium illustrator and author. And he said, yeah, he always makes these little, very small dummy books. And he has like 10 finished, perfect ideas and he shows them to the publisher. And from those perfect ideas, he only like, makes one of the books because his way of illustrating, he's drawing everything by hand and it takes him like four weeks for a spread to illustrate is so much work that he spends the rest of that year working on one of those great ideas and turns them into a picture book. And for me it's a bit different because my books are much faster. The way I make books can, you know, I can have the idea and then I can have a finished book a week later. And that's not impossible for me. It's more important to stay relaxed and easy even if the deadline approaches and I don't have anything to show.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So what happens if, let's say the course is only. We're going to talk after this, but I'm dying to meet your students. What happens if three or four weeks go by? And so you have 14 weeks to finish the project and nothing is gelling. The student gets very nervous.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, but that's also an experience that you have to go through. You have to kind of stand the problem to the idea. To throw something away just because it's not good, because it's just not good, because you didn't really finish it. You know, if an idea is good at the beginning, it will be good at the end. The only thing is you probably don't find the right way to draw it or to illustrate it, or you have to throw away things, or there's characters in the stories that need to leave or come back in another book, but not now. And these are hard decisions. And these hard decisions take time. And then I don't have a problem with that. Just to understand the process of these 14 weeks. At the end of those 14 weeks, I force them to create like six or seven spreads as pictures, as dummies. Like, is this. It's a bit like a fake catalog of books that don't really exist, but they are there on the website so we can show them to publishers. They don't have to be finished already and they don't have to have 32 pages. They can be only like a third of the book.

[Mel Rosenberg]

As the books aren't finished.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

The books aren't finished at that moment. So 14 spins books aren't finished at that moment moment. And then they have like the semester break, which is another 10 weeks or 12 weeks. And I say, okay, if you want to Come with us to Bologna. You need a perfect bound dummy, and that dummy needs to be in the shelf and people need to take it in their hands. And this has to be like a physical book. And then they go into our book binding workshop, into our print workshop, and then they create these dummies. And some of those are really finished and complete, and some of them are like half ready. And then the rest is only sketches and drawings. It can be anything. But I think it's important that every semester one book turns into something that you can sell. And I don't believe in students finishing a book to the very end, because how can they do it? I mean, it's really the work of a publisher, of an editor to work with you on something and then it turns into something else and it's stupid. Waste of time to like make a book finished as a student. You just know.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But I mean, yeah, the idea is to have a, a product. I don't want to call it exactly. I don't know what they're called.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

A good story, a good character.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But your publisher agents will feel that they know how to take. So I, I have as. I worried so much time has passed in our conversation. I have two more important questions for me, me. And the first one is the gender question. Most authors of picture books, most illustrators, are women. If you ask the women, they will say that the men have an unfair advantage. If you ask the men, they will say the women have an unfair advantage. But as illustrators, no, as authors or author illustrators in this genre.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I mean, the truth is that most of my students are female. Female. So I would say like 80% or even more are women. So the chances of a man kind of becoming visible is like, not the highest. But on the other hand, if you go in Bologna and look at the successful books, then there's like all these men, and they're all selling books and likes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Why? That's why I'm asking you. That's what the women say.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah. And I, I, I mean, I should care more. But to be honest, I don't really care that much. I think it's not that there's an unfair system running or something. I think there's definitely an unfair way of paying, I guess, because I, I believe, and that's what I hear from many people that know that women are paid worse, have worse contracts than men in this business. And that's not, that's not okay. That's something that needs to change. Change. But on the other hand, I believe that this is really Like a very open world in which anybody can contribute. And the personality is not so important as it might be in art or especially in music, where the personality that presents whatever you do is much more important. There are so many authors in picture books that you have never seen a picture of that you don't know how they look like, or you probably even don't know if they're male or female. So I should care more, maybe. I honestly don't care that much. And I more believe that it's really important that young authors get the chance to publish. Because now what I experience is that the older I get, the more easy it is for me to get a contract, a good contract, which is nice for me, but I think it's not fair to just have all those talented young people become part of that huge mass of portfolios that those publishers are like, burying in their backyards.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. One of the sad things about Bologna is you come in and there's this huge wall of really talented illustrators sticking their work on top of other work, on top of other work. And the odds of getting published as an illustrator are so low. I mean, I don't know whether they're as low as those of authors, but the odds of getting published in picture books is extremely, extremely low. Do you take all the students that apply for your course, or do you vet them first? You take just the best ones or you give everybody a chance?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Well, we, as a university, we have like an entrance, how do you say, bar, where we have to make a portfolio, and then we only take the best, I think, 10% or 20%. So we have very good students. So.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So you have to have a portfolio. Because I understood from you, from the. Well, you came to your university without a portfolio.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

No, no, no, no. I also had to have a portfolio back in the 90s, but it was a different story. But now. Now they also have to have a portfolio. The thing is, in my course in the Picture Book Lab, which is the title of that course in. In our Picture Book Lab, we have like two gold. One is once you finished one book concept to that point where it can be published on the website, you can always come back.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You can always.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

And I want them to come back because I think once they've done one book, they can do a second and a third and a fourth book, even if they don't need the credits for their studies, just because they're also teaching the other. The younger students. I use them kind of as part of that concept of working together. And the other rule is that if you're new, you have to have a concept, an idea, and you have to tell me what you want to do. I don't accept people just like, oh, I always wanted to make, like, a little picture book because it's so cute. I don't want those people. I want people that take that serious in terms of.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So they may not use the concept they come in with, but they have to have at least one idea before they come.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah. They have to have some kind of convincing few sentences to say. Why do you want to visit that course? Because it's always full. I mean. I mean, I have, like, last last semester, I had like 30 people in that, and it's far too many.

[Mel Rosenberg]

If I. If I could, I would be in your course.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, you're welcome anytime. Actually, actually, to be honest, it's really. It's open to. To people that already publish books. So I always say, like, anybody can come. I mean, anybody can come.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay. So, I mean, you know, there's like thousands of people listening to us now, but I got to. I'm going to come. I'm going to come. If there's a zoom possibility, I'm there. And. And the last question is authors versus author illustrators. A couple of words on that.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I. I think authors that made the decision to make picture books and not write long novels and complicated things, but really, really stepped down to this very stupid genre of picture books where. Where it's like, you don't have to write 300 pages. Those. I. I have a huge respect for that because that means that you. It's like writing poetry, you know, it's like only 10 words, and that should be it. It's like if you don't. I mean, it's like jazz. Yeah. If.

[Mel Rosenberg]

If you.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

If you don't make. Make the most complicated thing, but you make it really soulful, I have respect for that. But I must also say that I am a visual person, and I would find it really frustrating not to do both things. Have the idea of something and turn it into something. And the words are so important part of the pictures because somebody says something and then there is something to look at. And the child might only be able to look, but has to listen. And I think that's such a complex combination that I would find it super difficult to just do one thing. I can only imagine.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Ben, I need a yes or no here. Would you let somebody else illustrate a story you wrote? Okay. Would you illustrate somebody else's story?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

I did that with a song that Sting did. And in that respect, I would do it. And you asked earlier and I didn't answer. In the next two books. And one will be a book that I've done done, which is like the opposite version of A Million Dots. Half, half, half, half, half. It's just came out now, so you can buy it in Italian with italic, but the next book thereafter will be Pinocchio. And that's of course a story I haven't written. But I have taken the huge text of Carlo Collodi and made like a extreme remix of it, shortened it down and made like a 30. You know, it's like a 40 page book.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Wow. This one I have to see. Wow, wow, wow.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

It's gonna. I think we'll trying to get it done to Bologna. So that's like a very challenging plan.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But so I hope, I hope we will spend some time in Bologna. And I'm eager to see your new worth and I'm eager to meet your students. And please find me another hour next year for another interview because I feel we've just skimmed the surface.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

And you please find an hour for us and visit us at the Picture Book Lab. Because I think you are so good at asking the relev questions in that field and not the many beautiful ones that you could also ask.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Do you mean physically coming to Potsdam?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Physically, I don't know, because we have no money in this university. University business today means like no chance, but if you ever are close in Berlin or whatever. Of course, yes, definitely. But for us, Zoom is like. I mean, that came all with the pandemic, but Zoom is. Has opened universities up to really be global exchanges. I mean, it's simple. It's super simple and it's free.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Do your students speak English or do I have to learn Deutsch?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

They speak English. Of course they do, but you can learn there. And if you want, you speak it anyway.

[Mel Rosenberg]

The German I get is from Yiddish, by the way.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Yeah, definitely.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So anyway, listen, we have to. We have to say goodbye to everybody else. You and I are going to have a little tete a tete. How do you say tete a tete in German?

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Tete a tete. Okay. It was such a great pleasure. Thank you so much for asking.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I have to say goodbye formally say goodbye. So Professor Sven F. That's the best I can do. Professor of children's books, illustrator, author, designer, and a wonderful, wonderful. We say in the Yiddish, amench. Wonderful human being. It's been a great honor and privilege having you on the show. And I'm Mel Rosenberg. I'm the host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. This time I got it right. And we're going to say goodbye to everybody. Go have a look at the website of Professor Folker and his students. They are incredible. If you're an author illustrator, come and see us in Bologna. And for everybody else, I hope you enjoyed this at least half as much as I did. So, Sven, we're going to say goodbye to everybody. Cheers to everybody else.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Thank you so much and see you all in Bologna or somewhere in the world.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Take care.

[Professor Sven Foerker]

Bye. Bye.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Bye.