Loading summary
Transcript55 lines
- [00:00]
Commercial Narrator
I get so many headaches every month.
- [00:02]
Dr. Charles Petill
It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.
- [00:08]
Commercial Narrator
Botox Onobotulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for Those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
- [00:53]
Dr. Charles Petill
Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more.
- [01:01]
Commercial Narrator
Uncovered windows can make your home feel up to 20 degrees hotter. Stay cool and save up to 50% off custom window treatments during the 4th of July mega sale@blinds.com from outdoor shades to room darkening blinds, finding the perfect fit is easy. Get free samples, expert design help and professional measure and install services or diy. With confidence and support every step of the way. Shop up to 50% off site wide plus huge savings on door busters. Right now during the 4th of July mega sale@blinds.com
- [01:32]
Historian Ted Powell
this episode is brought to you by Starbucks. That is fire. Whoa.
- [01:36]
Commercial Narrator
That's good.
- [01:37]
Historian Ted Powell
This might be the drink of the summer. Okay, I like this one too.
- [01:40]
Dr. Charles Petill
I'm rocking with it.
- [01:41]
Historian Ted Powell
Okay, try it for yourself. Starbucks refreshers concentrates are coming home.
- [01:45]
Dr. Charles Petill
Find them in the coffee aisle and make it yours.
- [01:50]
Historian Ted Powell
Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:54]
Dr. Charles Petill
Good day. Welcome to New Books Network. My name is Dr. Charles Petill. I'm a host on the channel. And today we are pleased to have with us historian Ted Powell. Ted Powell is the author of such books as Edward VIII An American Life. And today we are discussing the latest book. His latest book, Churchill and the Crown, published by Oxford University Press. Welcome, Ted Powell.
- [02:14]
Historian Ted Powell
Thank you very much, Charles. Very good to talk to you.
- [02:17]
Dr. Charles Petill
Why did you write this book?
- [02:19]
Historian Ted Powell
Well, it was a sequel really to my previous book which you mentioned, Edward VIII An American Life in that Winston Churchill kept on popping up in the course of writing that book. And of course he plays a notable role in the abdication of Edward VIII in 1936 as virtually the only senior politician who champions and supports Edward. And it was obvious from that, of course, that he was an ardent monarchist and rated very highly the role of the monarchy in the British constitution. So having identified that particular aspect of Churchill's career, I was very surprised to find that there was no full length study, no book on that specific subject of Churchill and the crown. So I felt this was an opportunity to fill that particular gap in the literature.
- [03:28]
Dr. Charles Petill
It's not the case that while a ducal crown assured the Churchills a place in the highest ranks of the British aristocracy, au fond, most of their peers thought the Churchills were, were, as it were, a bit maumeton and nouveau riche. I'm thinking in particular of families like the Howards, the Cecils, the Stanleys, the Cavendishes, the Manners and the Russells.
- [03:51]
Historian Ted Powell
Yes, I suppose that's interesting. I wouldn't categorize them as nouveau in the sense, of course, that the fortunes of the family were established by John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough, in the late 17th and the early 18th century. And they always had perhaps a slightly raffish reputation. And Churchill himself was regarded with a degree of suspicion at the beginning of his career. And I wonder actually whether that was because of his half American parentage and in the. The sort of snobbery of the British aristocracy In the early 20th century that was regarded in some quarters as slightly dubious, I think.
- [04:44]
Dr. Charles Petill
What was Lord Randolph Churchill's relations with the crown?
- [04:48]
Historian Ted Powell
What were they? Yes, overall mixed, I would say. Of course, he was very close to Albert Edward as Prince of Wales and was part of his intimate social set. But as I discuss in my book in one of the earlier chapters, he had quite a spectacular falling out with Edward, the Prince of Wales, the future Edward vii. And this was in part because of a divorce scandal in which his elder brother, Marquis of Blandford, was involved and, and for some years he was very much Persona non grata with Edward vii. He did win his way back into royal favor towards the end of his career, in part by enthusiastically supporting the cause of monarchy. And there is the question the degree to which Jenny Churchill's relationship with Edward VII. They were probably lovers in the, perhaps in the 1880s. We don't quite know what impact that had on Lord Randolph, whether he was aware and disapproved of it or whether it was something that he tolerated an influence on.
- [06:13]
Dr. Charles Petill
Winston Churchill was his father in the context of Relations with the crown. I'm sorry, how much of an influence was lord Randolph Churchill, Winston Churchill's father, Winston Churchill's views on the crown?
- [06:28]
Historian Ted Powell
Certainly lord Randolph was a very enthusiastic pro monarchy advocate, and there must be a sense in which Churchill inherited that mantle. But I think it was also something which Winston came to of his own accord. And certainly in the years after the first world war, after what he called the holocaust of crowns, the collapse of the European monarchies and empires, he formulated a very distinctive view of monarchy and the role of monarchy in a modern political society.
- [07:12]
Dr. Charles Petill
What was Churchill's relations with Edward vii?
- [07:15]
Historian Ted Powell
I think Edward vii regarded him as a. A wayward nephew, if you like. He was fond of him, and he was very close to his mother, Winston's mother, Jenny, of course. And Jenny was very assiduous in cultivating the relationship to promote Winston's career, Particularly in the early days, Once Winston had entered parliament. I think Edward found him slightly wayward and frustrating, in part because, of course, at that early stage in his political career, Churchill was a radical liberal, and that was not a political stance which found favor with Edward vii. And indeed, Edward was recorded as saying that Winston, once he had entered government with the liberals in 1906, that he was more of a cad in government than he had been in opposition.
- [08:27]
Dr. Charles Petill
Why did Churchill leave the home office to become the first lord of the admiralty? After all, the former coast was much more prestigious. And unlike the admiralty, a good number of prime ministers have been home secretaries, while Churchill was the first and the last personality to become prime minister.
- [08:44]
Historian Ted Powell
That's an interesting question, and I'm not sure I can put my finger on the answer to that. I think possibly he was a little too lively and a bit too controversial as home secretary for Asquith. But the role of first lord was, of course, immensely important, particularly in the lead up to the first world war, because, as you know, we are in that phase of relations with Germany when there is a naval arms race, and there is a real fear in Britain that Germany was threatening to catch up and perhaps indeed surpass Britain in terms of the scale of its navy. And that was something that the government could not tolerate at all. So Churchill was very active in promoting and modernizing and expanding the admiralty, the royal Navy, in the years in which he was first lord.
- [09:55]
Dr. Charles Petill
How even did the great war impact on Churchill's view of the monarchy?
- [09:59]
Historian Ted Powell
It had a huge. It's difficult to exaggerate the impact which it had, I think, because before the first world war, the world. The world in which Churchill grew up, it was a world of monarchies and the world had been governed by monarchies, certainly in Europe, for more than a thousand years. And it was just something that everybody took for granted. It was part of the, of the pattern of life. And of course, the impact of the First World War is utterly catastrophic. With the collapse of the Russian Empire, the Russian monarchy, the Hohenzollerns in Germany, the Habsburgs in Austria, and of course the Ottoman Empire. And that, I mean, we are probably still living with the effects of that political revolution a century after it happened. And for many, and I think for Churchill, this was a deeply traumatic event because the familiar world in which he'd grown up was completely transformed. And of course in Russia it was replaced by Bolshevism, to which Churchill took a visceral hostility. And he saw the Treaty of Versailles as a disaster. Is a republican document promoting the new model of republicanism without a monarchy. And over the years between the wars, after 1918, he developed a sort of modern theory of monarchy. That it stood as an important bulwark against the rise of dictatorship and autocracy. The separation of what he called pageantry from power and the symbolic role of the monarchy as the repository of national identity and pride was important in keeping the sort of constitutional nature of the regime.
- [12:26]
Dr. Charles Petill
How Churchill reacted to the downfall and subsequent murder of Tsar Nicholas II of
- [12:31]
Historian Ted Powell
Russia, what was his response?
- [12:33]
Dr. Charles Petill
Yes, his human response, as it were.
- [12:35]
Historian Ted Powell
Well, he was obviously it was a matter of utter outrage for Churchill and I think it for him it illustrated the barbarity of the Bolshevik regime and it merely confirmed the hatred of Bolshevism that Churchill had and which of course he maintained. And as I'm sure you know, he was one of the few advocates of military intervention in Russia to crush the Bolshevik government in the immediate post war period. But there was nobody who was, after the traumas of the First World War, nobody really had much appetite for further warfare.
- [13:23]
Dr. Charles Petill
Overall, what were Churchill's relations with King George V?
- [13:29]
Historian Ted Powell
Strained, I think one would say. They never really got on very well. They were like chalk and cheese temperamentally. George V, of course, was very conservative. It was a small C and with a big C, I would imagine he distrusted Churchill. He thought he was unreliable, self promoting, always pushing himself forward. And of course he felt that he had poor judgment. And that, of course was, in George V's eyes, vindicated by the fiasco of the Dardanelles expedition and the failure of the Gallipoli landings, which Churchill was strongly identified with. So in those early years, their Relations were, were distant and not, they were cordial but not close. And Churchill at that time regarded George, I think as a, if you like, a dim witted reactionary. Matters changed after the war for the reasons that I've outlined, that Churchill's view of monarchy evolved and he came to see George V as a stalwart and representative of the good old monarchical order and a force for stability and continuity in a changing world. And by the same token, George was respected. Churchill's role, for example, in the peace negotiations with Ireland and the settlement, at least from the UK point of view, the settlement with Ireland and the establishment of Irish independence in the years immediately after the First World War.
- [15:40]
Dr. Charles Petill
I'm sorry, why was Churchill's relations with, with the Prince of Wales, the future King Edward viii, so much warmer than that of Churchill relations with Edward, the Edward VII father?
- [15:50]
Historian Ted Powell
Again, I think that was a matter of, of temperament. Edward VIII as we know was a, was a very different, very different character from his father and in a sense was a, a reaction against that, that generation in terms of his views. And early on in Prince Edward's career, when he'd just come out of the war, Churchill was instrumental in assisting and mentoring him in his first steps in public life and advising him on how to make speeches and supporting him when he had official functions. And I think that was something which, which Edward greatly appreciated. And as the heir to the throne, Edward, I think for, for Churchill he was worth cultivating that, you know, in the fullness of time he would of course become King. And building a friendship with Edward was an investment that was worth making. And as I said, I think Edward was, was grateful for the support which Churchill provided and he continued to do so. He, Edward continued to seek Churchill's advice, for example, on, on speech making right through his career. And as we know he was, Churchill was there right at the very last. I don't know if you, if you're aware, I expect you are, but Edward had a ranch, a cattle ranch in Canada, in Calgary or in Alberta. And on one occasion when Churchill was on one of his North American tours, he was a guest bearer and visited Edward's ranch.
- [17:51]
Dr. Charles Petill
Sorry, why was Churchill so sympathetic to the Emperor William II of Germany?
- [17:55]
Historian Ted Powell
This was one of the most intriguing features of the research I carried out for the book and it was not something I had expected really to devote a great deal of time to in the book, but I found myself, as you saw, if you've read the book, devoting an entire chapter to the relations between Churchill and the Kaiser and it is something of a, it is something of a mystery. He did of course, meet the Kaiser in person at the German war maneuvers in 1906 and again in 1909. He was the guest of the German government and they exchanged cordial words. And there's no doubt that Churchill was dazzled by monarchy and monarchs. He loved to meet them and talk to them and, and in a sense those. He perhaps felt it was a, it was a friendship. And certainly after the war when there were the calls to hang the Kaiser, Lloyd George was campaigning on that in the post war election. Churchill was not in favor of that. I think that was because of his essential sympathy with monarchy. He did not regard Kaiser as a war criminal. He felt that others were more responsible for Germany's going to war and he felt also that monarchy was the best form of constitution for a post war Germany. Now there was never any real prospect, of course, of the, the restoration of the Hohenzollern dynasty in Germany, but that was something that Churchill advocated and in his journalism, in his writings. After the First World War, when he was out of office in the 1920s and the 1930s, he did write a number of articles in praise of monarchy and suggesting that the old traditional dynasties of Central Europe might be restored. One of the most surprising things, and this is something I touch on in the book, is that at the beginning of the Second World War, on 10 May 1940, which was of course the day, as we all know, Churchill became Prime Minister, he had in cabinet made a proposal that the Kaiser should be offered political asylum in Britain because of course, the, the Germans were overrunning Holland at the time. And given the scope and the extent of the crisis on that particular day, it does seem to me to be remarkable that Churchill should even have given any thought at all to such a proposal. But it is quite revealing, I think, and the reasons for it, perhaps there were several. No doubt. A residual respect for the Kaiser. Also, I think the idea of having a German government, an anti Nazi government in exile led by the Kaiser, was quite a persuasive idea. Of course, as we know, the idea came to nothing. The Kaiser was thrilled at the success of the German armies and he certainly didn't want to spend the rest of his life in obscurity in Britain.
- [22:10]
Dr. Charles Petill
Churchill seriously take up King Edward VIII's part in the question of Mrs. Simpson?
- [22:18]
Historian Ted Powell
Yes, he did.
- [22:20]
Dr. Charles Petill
But why? So why did he?
- [22:22]
Historian Ted Powell
Why did he? Because he felt that Edward was being very shabbily treated. Because he greatly admired Edward and whether rightly or wrongly, he thought that Edward would make a successful king. He also regarded him as a personal friend and I think he attributed to Edward qualities of all the qualities that a king should have of sort of charm, honor, devotion to service, pride in the country and so on. So, but in particular I felt that he felt that Edward was being unceremoniously bundled out of his throne by Baldwin and that he had not been given sufficient time to reflect and consider. And what essentially. Edward was in need of, Churchill thought was time. What he was hoping for, let's say what Churchill was hoping for was that pressure could be put on Wallis Simpson to withdraw from the idea, to withdraw from the proposal to marry Edward. What Churchill of course did not realize was that Edward was absolutely determined to marry Wallis Simpson and nothing would stop him from that objective. We know, in fact, and this is something I touched on in my previous book, that Wallis Simpson was indeed ready to withdraw. She could see only too clearly the disaster that was unfolding and had actually written to Edward to suggest that she withdrew and left the country. But he was having none of it. He was absolutely determined to marry her. So I think there's a sense in which Churchill felt that he, he knew Edward and his character but perhaps was deceived. He didn't, he didn't really understand the man's personality. But it says, I think it says something for Churchill that he, he stuck up for Edward even at the expense of his own personal status and his political fortunes at the end of 1936 and 1937. Because as we know, he, he did face tremendous opprobrium and disapproval from his political allies and his opponents as a result of his support for Edward in
- [25:23]
Dr. Charles Petill
George vi be less than then enthusiastic about Churchill becoming Premier in May of 1940.
- [25:31]
Historian Ted Powell
No, he was not terribly enthusiastic. His preference, and I'm sure you know this, his preference was for Lord Halifax. But Halifax very, very sensibly had no stomach to take on the role. George VI at that early stage had almost certainly, how should I put it, inherited the views of Churchill which his father George V had had. That is to say, he regarded him as something of a political maverick, a bit self advancing, unreliable and not the sort of person that he would want as Prime Minister. That was also reinforced by Edward, by Churchill's support for Edward VIII in 1936, of course. But that view, the King's view did change quite rapidly. Perhaps it took months rather than weeks. And in the early days of Churchill's premiership he had so little time that he was a bit cavalier in meeting George and Giving him, keeping him briefed on events. But certainly by the end of 1940, George's view has changed and they've begun to forge that sort of close working relationship which we see strengthening and growing throughout the Second World war, up to 1945.
- [27:06]
Dr. Charles Petill
King George VI have on Churchill. Are there any examples of royal interference such as George VI's convincing of convincing Adle to drop Dalton as Foreign Secretary, instead appointing Ernie Bevin?
- [27:23]
Historian Ted Powell
There were one or two tentative attempts early in Churchill's premiership when Churchill was making appointments of his colleagues. I'm thinking of Lord Beaverbrook and Brendan Bracken to government positions. And in both cases Churchill gave. Well, he was the private secretary, of course, rather than the King personally, but he gave very short shrift to any sort of hint of political interference in his freedom of choice, members of the government and so on. And particularly, of course, this was in the summer of 1940, when the scale of the crisis was unfolding and Churchill was very much up against it. There is one celebrated occasion on which George VI views did prevail over Churchill's and that was, of course, in relation to D Day. And this is actually, it is quite, quite funny really, in that Churchill announced, probably about a week before the D Day landings, that he was intending to witness the landings in person on a Royal Navy battleship. That's to say he would, you know, he would watch the landings from a. From a Royal Navy ship. Now, initially, George did not balk at this and indeed he said to Churchill that, you know, he'd quite like to go too, that he would, you know, he would join him in the viewing the landings. Now, naturally, this caused absolute consternation both within the government and at Buckingham palace. And the, Naturally, the, The military and naval planners for D Day were horrified at the prospect of Churchill and indeed the King putting themselves at risk. The, you know, the very thought that both the King and the Prime Minister could be killed by misadventure on D Day was. Was too dreadful to contemplate. So there was a very active campaign to deter both of them and it was very easy to deter George vi. His private secretary, Tommy Lassells, prevailed on him very, very quickly by pointing out that if both he and Churchill were killed, then Princess Elizabeth would have to nominate a new Prime Minister. Churchill, however, was immovable and he was still determined to go. And George started to deliver the big guns. So he wrote Churchill a couple of very strong letters urging him not to take the risk, not commanding him as his sovereign, which would have got Churchill's hackles up. But as a friend and advisor, suggesting that this was not the best route and that Churchill should stay at home. And I think it was only a couple of days before D Day and George still had not heard anything back from Churchill. And he was all set actually to drive down to Portsmouth to meet Churchill and in person to prevail upon him to decide against joining the landing party. But Tommy Lassells, the private secretary, rang Churchill and finally extracted a grudging agreement that he would not, after all, witness the landings. And that took probably the best part of a week in order to encourage Churchill to stand down. And I think that's probably the only substantive time in which Churchill modified his behavior or his actions as Prime Minister as a result of George's suggestions nature.
- [32:12]
Dr. Charles Petill
Churchill's relations with Queen Elizabeth ii, did he replicate Melbourne's relations with Queen Victoria?
- [32:18]
Historian Ted Powell
Perhaps they were. They were not dissimilar. Certainly Churchill was absolutely besotted with Queen Elizabeth and he did rather, like Melbourne, play the role of genial mentor and a sort of grandfatherly figure, if you like, to guide the young new Queen in her first years as monarch. And of course, for Churchill, who was in his late 70s by the time that the Queen came to the throne, the, this was an ideal opportunity to postpone retirement because he felt he should enable her to settle in again. I think it was his sort of romantic notion of monarchy that he felt the Queen's reign opened a new Elizabethan era in Britain and represented new hope and new development in the, in the history of the country and indeed of the, of the Empire and Commonwealth, although that was perhaps at that stage a forlorn hope. And it was perhaps, one might call it the, the indulgence of an old man. They got on famously mainly because they spend a lot of time talking about horses and horse racing, which was of course a great passion of Queen Elizabeth's. And in the post war years, Churchill himself became interested in horse flesh.
- [33:57]
Dr. Charles Petill
On the occasion of his last weekly meeting with the Queen, did the Queen offer Churchill a dukedo and is it true that she would horrify if he accepted?
- [34:08]
Historian Ted Powell
Yes. This again illustrates one of these peculiarities of the, of the British establishment. It was felt because of the enormous contribution which Churchill had made to the war effort and to getting Britain successfully to victory. The advisors at Buckingham palace felt that honour would be satisfied if Churchill were offered a dukedom, and that perhaps would have echoed the rewards to the Duke of Marlborough, Churchill's great ancestor, who was the, of course, was granted a dukedom in recognition of his great services. However, there had been a decision within the royal household that no new royal dukes would be created. And so this would have created something of an anomaly if Churchill had accepted. So discreet inquiries were made of Churchill's staff and his close advisors that if he were indeed offered a dukedom, he would turn it down. And indeed, indeed he did. Although he did say that at the time, he was so overwhelmed by the Queen's generosity and kindness that he came quite close to accepting. Perhaps more important for him was the Garter was being conferred the Knighthood of the Garter. Again, like his great ancestor, the Duke of Marlborough.
- [36:04]
Dr. Charles Petill
People take one thing away from your book. What would it be?
- [36:07]
Historian Ted Powell
Churchill's passionate support for the monarchy. This was not unqualified, of course, because his support was for the constitutional monarchy and he regarded this as the best of all forms of political structure. Indeed, he did say that any king is better than no king. And I think one of the point which came out most strongly to me in writing the book was how it was not merely a token support, but it was a substantive political philosophy that constitutional monarchy was, for Churchill, the best of all possible forms of government. And that was represented, of course, by the British Constitution, which was the naturally the. The best in the entire world, and that all countries would do well to seek to imitate that. And as I explained a little earlier, the particular contribution which Churchill made was developing a notion of modern monarchy as a bulwark against autocracy and dictatorship and the separation of pageantry from power. So thereby giving monarchy a modern role, if you like, as a keystone of the arch of the Constitution, which brought it up to date for the 20th century. So I think that's probably for me, the most important takeaway of the book.
- [37:58]
Dr. Charles Petill
I would like to thank you very much, Ted Powell, for being. Being so kind to speak with us today. This is Charles Matiah. You've been listening to New Books in History, a podcast podcast channel, New Books Network. Ted Powell, thank you again very much and thank you.
- [38:11]
Historian Ted Powell
That was most enjoyable.
- [38:12]
Dr. Charles Petill
Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us on Instagram and BlueSky with the handle ewbooksnetwork, and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.