Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Terry Williams, "Life Underground: Encounters with People Below the Streets of New York" (Columbia UP, 2024)
Date: January 26, 2026
Host: Stephen Pimpair
Guest: Terry Williams, ethnographer and author

Overview

In this episode, host Stephen Pimpair interviews ethnographer Terry Williams about his latest book, Life Underground: Encounters with People Below the Streets of New York. Based on over 20 years of immersive research, Williams explores the hidden communities living beneath New York City’s streets, focusing primarily on the people inhabiting the tunnels under Riverside Park as well as their social structures, survival strategies, and the broader systemic and personal issues underlying homelessness.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction to the Project and Author (02:07-06:20)

• Terry Williams introduces himself as an ethnographer from the New School for Social Research.
  • Emphasizes his focus on hidden urban populations and transgressive spaces.
  • His Cosmopolitan Life Series includes five books on New York’s subcultures, with Life Underground being the final entry.

Notable Quote:

"All of these books are basically ways to capture, I would say, most of the world that people know little about... trying to account for hidden populations for the most part."
— Terry Williams (03:49)

• Williams describes meeting "the Lord of the Tunnel," Bernard Monty Isaac, and recounts his method: long-term immersion, participant observation, interviews, dream journals, and photography.
  • Tracked and documented 113 people, ultimately focusing on 8 for in-depth profiles over 20 years.

2. The Built Environment and Life Below the Streets (06:20-09:42)

• Williams discusses how the underground spaces beneath Grand Central and Riverside Park were originally constructed (e.g., Track 61), and how disused railway infrastructure became living space.
  • Residents adapted and utilized “bunkers,” alcoves, tents, and makeshift shelters.
  • Navigating deep darkness and uncertainty: "You don't know what you are stepping on. You don't know who can come from different spaces..." (08:17)
  • Challenges: procuring food, water, and maintaining dignity while being physically and socially marginalized.

3. Community Structure and Survival Strategies (09:42-13:55)

• Underground communities were organized around remnants of old railway infrastructure and improvised shelters.
  • "Bunkers" built by original track workers were repurposed.
  • Unique shelters such as the “Cubano Arms” built by Cuban migrants.
  • Social relations included solidarity but also fluidity, as many came and went.
  • Residents frequently went above ground for food, work, and social ties.
  • Emphasized the "working homeless" who reclaimed bottles/cans, did odd jobs, and ran cons to survive.

Notable Insight:

"But this connection between margin and mainstream was also important... there was a working homeless population there as well."
— Terry Williams (12:40)

4. The Social Function of Can Collecting (14:06-15:26)

• Collecting cans and bottles served as both survival mechanism and public service.
  • After the advent of the bottle law, street litter was substantially reduced by those "working homeless."
  • Williams highlights the need to recognize their contribution:

"...avoiding stereotyping and seeing this population as, sometimes, migratory, but... providing a kind of working homeless population... we need to give credit to them for doing that."
— Terry Williams (14:25)

5. Why Underground? Shelters, Dignity, and Trauma (15:26-17:58)

• Many prefer underground life over traditional shelters, viewing the latter as more dangerous and lacking dignity.
  • Common misconceptions: shelters are not always free; they come with surveillance and costs.
  • Homelessness is rooted not merely in economic crisis, but in trauma—loss of loved ones, jobs, addiction.
  • Homelessness is described as a "condition," not just a crisis:

"For the most part, everyone that I talk to has suffered a certain amount of trauma... to a person, a person has lost something. So this idea of loss plays a role in the story."
— Terry Williams (16:50)

6. Geography, Institutional Support, and Social Networks (18:28-20:30)

• Geography matters: where one lives impacts the outcome of personal crises.
  • Lack of support networks above ground leads people below.
  • Long-term family support can make a difference, but exhaustion and inability to help often results in further isolation.
  • Example: Jason, whose family gave repeated but eventually exhausted efforts to help him escape addiction and homelessness.

7. Changing Public Perception and Criminalization (20:30-23:01)

• Williams traces the historical shift from seeing homeless people as “deserving poor” (e.g., bag ladies, white women in the 1970s) to “undeserving poor” (increasingly black and minority men).
  • The latter group is much more likely to be criminalized and stigmatized today.
  • Race is a key factor in societal attitudes.
  • Quotes historical reference points, including the impact of racialized perceptions:

Notable Quote:

“We started to see the poor who were menacing. We started to see them as the underclass. And the underclass, of course, became criminalized. ...They became poor and black. ...That's where the criminalizing of this population exists. And that's where we are now.”
— Terry Williams (20:59-22:57)

8. Internalization and Possible Solutions (23:55-26:28)

• Williams talks about the self-perception of underground residents, noting their philosophical resilience and agency, specifically through the example of Bernard Isaac.
  • Policy interventions, such as vouchers introduced by HUD Secretary Cisneros in 1996, helped many people move above ground.
  • Access to affordable housing and strong social support organizations are key to solutions.
  • Notes city resources like Main Chance and support organizations, calling for increased investment and attention.

Notable Suggestion:

"...We can do more with this population if we establish these kind of entities [support organizations]."
— Terry Williams (25:50)

Memorable Moments and Quotes

• On research methods and duration:

“So all of that, of course, led to a 20 year adventure. ...I end up with eight people that I maintain a relationship with and I wrote about in this book.”
— Terry Williams (05:08)

• On moral transformation in society:

"We lionized for a time...the hobos...They were not considered to be disposable. ...Something happened, of course, between then and now where we now would see this population as disposable and, of course, seen as criminals."
— Terry Williams (12:40)

• On mutual aid and system change:

"At the very least, something that we have to realize is that people can only do well when there is some kind of support network. ...How long and how much that help...made the difference."
— Terry Williams (19:18)

Important Timestamps

• 02:28 — Williams introduces himself and the Cosmopolitan Life Series
• 05:08 — Description of Bernard Monty Isaac and the 20-year study
• 06:47 — Explaining underground geography and the initial forays into tunnels
• 10:14 — Forms of underground shelters and community structure
• 12:40 — Working homeless and social ties above ground
• 14:25 — Value of can collectors to the city
• 15:43 — Dangers and indignities of homeless shelters
• 16:50 — Trauma and personal loss as root causes
• 20:59 — Historical change: from deserving to undeserving poor, race, and criminalization
• 25:50 — The need for policy and organizational solutions

Tone and Language

Williams speaks with empathy, respect, and sociological precision, frequently grounding his observations in real stories and historical context. Pimpair’s questioning is thoughtful, inviting both anecdotal detail and systemic analysis from his guest.

Conclusion

Terry Williams' Life Underground offers a deeply humanizing and complex portrait of New York’s subterranean communities, challenging dominant narratives about homelessness. By uncovering hidden lives and overlooked labor, Williams reveals both the resilience of underground residents and the structural failings that drive people below the city’s surface. This conversation on the New Books Network is an essential listen (or read) for anyone seeking a nuanced understanding of urban poverty, homelessness, and the ways in which society views and treats its most marginalized citizens.