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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the New Books Network. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Academic Life. This is a podcast for your academic journey and beyond. I'm the show's creator and the producer, Dr. Christina Gessler. And today I am so pleased to be joined by Dr. Laura Tedesco, who is the author of How Government Killings and Kidnappings in Argentina Drove Mothers to Resist and Revolt and Eventually Won. It was published in the conversation in January 2026. Dr. Tedesco, welcome to the show.
- [00:35]
B
Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure.
- [00:38]
A
I am so glad that you're here and that we're going to talk about this article and your research that led to it. Before we do that, will you please tell us about yourself?
- [00:47]
B
Yes, thank you. Well, I am originally from Argentina and I study political science there. I started to study political science when we still have the military dictatorship in Argentina that lasted from 1976 to 1983. And then I left Argentina in 1991 when we already had democracy. But I wanted to do a PhD and I went to the United Kingdom to do my PhD. Then I was working. When I finished my PhD, I was working in a university in the United Kingdom, the University of Istanbulia, as a lecturer and senior lecturer. Later, and in 2005, my family and myself, we came to Madrid, where I am now in Madrid. And from 2014 I'm working in St. Louis University. The main campus is in Missouri, but we have a campus here in Madrid, so it's Saint Louis University, Madrid campus.
- [02:00]
A
You've shared quite a bit about your pathway, but I'm curious how you chose it. Did you know you wanted to go to the UK specifically to study? Was there a particular program that was luring you? How did you choose your area of expertise and where to study it?
- [02:18]
B
When I was in the university in Buenos Aires, I started to work in a Center for International Relations, which was like a sort of think tank. It was the first years of democracy after the dictatorship. So there were quite a lot of grants going to Argentina and different countries in Latin America which were also going through a transition to democracy, you know, to promote here and start to build this type of think tanks. And because of that, I was working in a specific project about the uk, the diplomatic relations between the UK and Argentina after the Malvinas Falklands War. And so, well, we re established relations and the United Kingdom brought an ambassador to Buenos Aires. And also it came the British Council. And so they were basically promoting Argentinians to apply and to go and study in the uk. And so I was in the right time, in the right place. And I was very lucky. I applied for. For one of the scholarships, and so I went to study in Warwick University, mainly because of fees, because I had the opportunity to have a scholarship for one year, and then the Argentinian government gave me scholarships for another two years to finish the degree.
- [04:03]
A
In your article in the Conversation, you tell us that you are a political scientist who studies authoritarian regimes. We are taping in February of 2026, and the term authoritarianism and terms like authoritarian regimes are being used more and more commonly in social media, in the popular press, and yet it's used without definition. Since you are an expert, could you take a few moments and define for us what these terms mean?
- [04:33]
B
Yes, it's okay. It's very different from liberal democracy. There are no elections, There is no freedom of speech. When we have the authoritarian regime in Argentina, everything was censored. There were quite a lot of things that we couldn't watch. There is no legislative. There was a commission named by the armed forces that were basically producing some sort of legislation. And there is no freedom of press. Yeah. And so, you know, you could have an authoritarian regime which is not necessarily ruled by the armed forces. You can have a president who is like, for instance, Hugo Chavez, that could be considered an authoritarian regime. Right. He was. There were elections. So there are different types. But the one that we have, especially in the 1970s and the 1980s in many countries in Latin America, the ones who were ruling were basically the armed forces. But it's. The most important thing is that they reduce your rights.
- [06:02]
A
And you tell us in the article that you were witnessing from abroad what was happening in the United States in January in Minnesota, and you were particularly talking about what you were witnessing from a group called ice, commonly referred to as ice. And witnessing this made you think about your own experience when you lived in Argentina, when you lived through the brutal military junta of the 1970s and 1980s. Can you talk a little bit about what that was? Yes.
- [06:41]
B
Okay. When you are living in. Okay. The first thing that, that, that you feel is fear. Yeah. Especially when you are in the streets. What. What we have seen recently in the United States. Yeah. Remind me a lot of times when you were having lunch or, you know, I was. I was in my secondary school during the dictatorship and finishing and going into the university. So maybe you were having lunch with some friends from school or from the university, and the soldiers would come into the coffee shop and ask for your identity card. And if you didn't have an identity card, they might Take you to the police station where your parents will have to go and beat you up. Right. Or if you were not a minor, you know, if you were over 21, you know, they will take you anyway and somebody will have to take to the police station the id. This is in the, you know, the everyday life. Yeah, but there were a lot of rumors about people that were disappearing. You could see the soldiers in different places in the city taking people away, and you didn't know what will happen with them. So when I saw this confrontation, yes, it remind me of situations in Argentina where you see the state repression, you see that face of the state, the one that basically dominates what citizens can do and what they cannot do.
- [08:31]
A
And you talk a little further on in the article that what you were witnessing through watching from abroad, the ICE agents were doing, runs counter to international law. And you point out that police violence more broadly runs counter to international law. I know some things are a little bit outside your area of expertise, but what is your understanding of how international laws are supposed to affect how governments can treat their people?
- [09:00]
B
Well, I mean, you know, the state is sovereign, so you know, sometimes the international law, this is one of the main problems of international law that, you know, you can't pick and choose what you want as a state because of the principle of non intervention. Right. And so this is something that is. Sometimes it's very frustrating because you have the Charter of Human Rights, you have a lot of legal tools, but the state is able to do more or less what they want if you are under an authoritarian state. And so when I see these pictures of ICE and what is happening in the United States, it reminds me of that face of the state, which is the, the repressive face that I haven't seen it in the United States before, all apart from the 6th of January. And okay, the worst, I mean, it's not a perfect state yet, but now it's more evident and it comes mainly with the approval from the government. So it's very worrying.
- [10:22]
A
And your article mostly centers on your expertise about what had happened in Argentina. And in it you say that mothers became a potent force in resisting authoritarianism and ultimately restoring democracy. But before we start to see how the mothers came together to do that, you talked to us about how at least the numbers vary, but about 30,000 people had been forcibly disappeared. And by that you mean they were secretly kidnapped and they were not never seen again. And in most cases no one knew where they had been taken to. The majority of these people, you tell us, were young men and women, they were involved in labor unions, they were students, they were people seen as having left leaning ideologies. But they were also priests and nuns who practice liberation Anthology. In your own personal history that you narrated, these people that they were disappearing were quite close in age to you at the time.
- [11:21]
B
Yes, they were a little bit older than me, but yes, they were very, very close. Yeah, they were around in their 20s. They were people who were under 20, but the majority were in their 20s. This was, you know, was the Cold War period. Yeah. And so, you know, we have a very different perspectives. Not the right wing perspective and the left wing perspective. Perspective. And most of young people in Latin America were more inclined to follow the left wing perspective. Socialism and equality and the authoritarian states, they basically tried to restore law and order, but in a repressive context. And that was the main problem. We have elections, but the armed forces and maybe the industrial bourgeoisie or the agricultural burglary, they didn't like who was in power. And so this is why they intervened. I also want to emphasize that, that, okay, the government who was, who was in power came from the Peronist party, Peron die and we have his widow as the president. And it was horrible. The government also had like a paramilitary group. Yeah. So you can understand, right, that we need this government to stop. We need elections or something like this. But it was the time of authoritarian regimes. And the United States supported the authoritarian regimes because they were against communism and they didn't want another Cuba in South America. So it's more or less what happened to Salvador agenda in Chile. So most of the countries of Latin America follow the same, you know, the same path. Yeah, but the problem was that these authoritarian regimes use the state. Yeah. To kill people illegally when you have, you know, when you have the legal system that allow you to find out whether somebody is innocent or is guilty or of any illegal act. And so the state has the power of the justice system. And the problem was that they were doing exactly what the others, the terrorist groups or militants from different political parties were doing. That it was to kill without using the, the legality to kill somebody who was not proved to be guilty. Do you see what I mean? Yes.
- [14:44]
A
And it explains, I think, why these people were targeted. If you believe in democracy. No, you wouldn't understand why they were targeted. But if it's the opposite of what the government is trying to do, these are the people that they want to suppress. I think one piece of this that might be surprising to people is that they were also going after priests and nuns, specifically those who. Who embraced what's called liberation theology. And liberation theology is a movement within the church that interprets the. The Gospels, which is the first four books of the New Testament, and that talks about really what Jesus did. And he was really a. A guy who kind of was against the power structure. He was for helping the poor, he was for the oppressed. And while there are many religions in the world, some leaders really devote themselves to talking about how important it is to consider the poor and the oppressed. And liberation theology is really embedded in that particular message and how to enact it. But we don't often think of the military as going against priests and nuns.
- [15:54]
B
Yes, but the liberation theology was quite powerful in Latin America especially. It started priests and nuns in Brazil and in Argentina. There were some of these congregations that are from nuns and priests. They make a choice. And the choice involved that they were going and living. They were going to live in shanty towns. They were living with the poorest of the poor, and they were helping them and bringing them also Jesus testimony. And so some of them disappear. Some of them who were Jesuits from the Jesuit company, disappear. And I don't know if you remember, but when the Argentinian priest was named the pope, Bergoglio Francis, that started a big debate in Argentina. Again, to what extent he supported. Because he was one of the. He belonged to the Jesuit company and he was one that supported the liberation theology. But what has he done to defend those who disappear? Because many nuns and priests also disappear. The military dictatorship saw them as a threat because they were like they were giving power to the poorest of the poor. They were basically making the poorest of the poor to confront the state, but not with weapons, right? With. With the word of Jesus. And they were making people aware and conscious about the fact that they were poor was not necessarily their fault. Right. And that this should be changed. Okay? The Church, the Catholic Church, wanted this to be church through Jesus. And then you have the others that maybe did not belong in the. Or didn't want to follow the Catholic Church. But the aim was the same, not to make people aware of why they were poor and that this should be changed either with the church or with the state. Right. But that this was a very unfair situation and it should not be perpetuated. Unfortunately, they were defeated. All those young people were basically defeated. Okay? The liberation theology is no longer a strong part of the Catholic Church. And okay, things remain more or less the same. Latin America is a very unequal a part of the world where there are People who are extremely rich and people who are extremely poor. And this has not been resolved by democracy.
- [19:24]
A
April 1977, roughly a year after young Argentines first begin vanishing. You tell us that 14 women gathered in the Plaza de Mayo, which is a central square in Buenos Aires, and it faces the Presidential Palace. And they went there for a particular purpose. Can you take us to their gathering and what they wanted?
- [19:46]
B
Yes, these were okay, because people started to disappear. So maybe your son or your daughter didn't come back from secondary school. Right. Or one night you knew they have a meeting with some friends, they didn't come back. Yeah. And you started to. As a mother, you started to go to the police station, the judiciary. I mean, you start to look for your son or your daughter. And they didn't know what was happening. And so these people who have been taken away, the mothers knew that they were involved in political parties or triunions, that they have political activity. And so the party, they started to suspect that the fact that we have now a military dictatorship, maybe the police or the government knew something about their fate. And they started with 1, 2, 3 moms that they knew each other. And they went to the Mei Square, which is the square which is in front of the house of government. And so they started to. To go there and see if they could speak with somebody in the government, in the house of Government, and ask about their kids. And at that time, we have a state of siege in Argentina. So you couldn't form a group in a public space. So this is why they started to walk around the square. They started to walk around the square. So, you know, the police would then tell them to leave. Yeah, because you are like, you have a. This is a political gathering, right. If you are walking, you know, you can walk in a square. I mean, we had a dictatorship, but still you could walk in a square. And there are some videos on which the mothers, at the very, very beginning in 1977, they started to confront the police and they started to say, where is my daughter? Where is my. And we started to get to know what was happening, mainly because of the mothers. I mean, I say we, as you know, I was a teenager, but the Argentinian society, not everybody, had someone who disappeared. And so we started to get to know what had happened because of the. Well, because of what the mothers started to do. And then every Thursday, and they are still there, the ones who are alive, because some of them had died already, they're still walking around the square because not everybody knows what had happened to their kids.
- [22:52]
A
And in the article, you describe arrests happening within the home in front of family members, people not returning home, people not knowing anything about whereabouts. And as I was reading that, I saw why it had taken you back to this when you were watching the television coverage of what ICE was doing in Minneapolis and what the news reports were that were coming out, because it's very similar methods of removing people. You go on to say that it would be much, much later that. That the Madres, the mothers, would know more details of what had happened to their missing children. And the details that came out were. Were horrific. They were of torture. They were also of these death flights. I don't know that most people are familiar with, with those. Do you want to explain a bit about that?
- [23:47]
B
Yes. Okay. Some people. There were some concentration camps in different parts of the city of Buenos Aires and in the Severns. And in some cases, we learned that many years after the dictatorship collapsed. And what we learn is that for some of these people who had been kidnapped by the government, they put them in helicopters or planes, they gave them some strong pills for them to be sleepy, and they throw them out of the River Plate, which is the river that is near. Well, it's by the city of Buenos Aires. And they just dropped them in the river. Alive? Yeah. Maybe with anesthesia or sleepy, but they were alive. Yeah. And, yeah, we learned this because somebody from the Navy confess these type of crimes when we had the dictatorship. We learn a lot of things after. Sorry, when we have democracy, this guy from the navy started to speak. During the first democratic government. We learned a lot of things after the dictatorship collapse. We knew that something was going on, but we didn't know what, how, when, and the extent that we didn't know the extent of all these atrocities. One thing that I want to emphasize, and this is quite important, we always say 30,000 disappear. Actually, the number is not 30,000. It's less than 30,000. But this was like. This is the number that we will always. Historically, I think that we will always mention, because it was the numbers that we were having during the dictatorship. It is less than 30,000. It's around 10,000. The ones that. Because after the military dictatorship, we have a transition government, and there was a commission that got quite a lot of information about those people who had disappeared. And the number there decreased to a little bit more than almost 9,000, which.
- [26:31]
A
Is still a horrific number.
- [26:33]
B
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. We keep saying 30,000 because it's the, you know, in the memory of the nation is 30,000 people disappear. Yeah, but, you know, to be exact. Right. We know it that. But the crime was horrific, even if it was 10 people. Right. Because that was the state that there was the state putting people in helicopters and send them, then send them to the river alive, just because their ideology was different. Some of them were involved in kidnappings and some of them had taken the weapons and there were bombs exploding in Buenos Aires. But the state has the justice system. If the state, and this is why we call it a state terrorism, if the state doesn't use the justice system, then you have a big problem. Right. Those who are a garisha movement are not going to use the justice system, but the state has to. And so this is when there is no democracy, if the state is doing this type of horrific murders.
- [27:47]
A
And you tell us in the article that when the mothers are beginning to gather and to walk around the plaza, they don't know these details yet. They, no information is being given because as you stated, it didn't come out during the authoritarian regime, it came out after and when the new democracy was starting. And so in, in 1984, there was a report written by the first democratic government after military rule, and it was published under the name Nunkmas. Can you talk a little bit about that report?
- [28:20]
B
Yes. Okay. Well, the first democratic government, when we have, in 1983, we have elections and then we have a democratic government. And what the president was Raul Alphonsin and what he named a commission of people that were very well known in Argentina, which were writers or journalists, and they became the commission for the. To know the whereabouts of those who have disappeared. Right. And so families went and explained to these people in this commission, you know, the last time that I saw my daughter, and they explained where they think that she was. Because some people who had disappeared then they were released. Yeah. And so they were telling the story of who was in that illegal prison with them. They were also telling that some women were pregnant and that the babies were taken away from them and then the mother was maybe killed. And so we started to get to know. The first years of the democratic government were really tough because it was when we realized as a society all the things that have been done. The concentration camps in the middle of Buenos Aires city. And so when we learn all this, it was really horrific. And this commission make a book which has been the bestseller in Argentina, which is known as the Never Again. Right. And it describes all the testimonies of these people that went to talk with this commission. Because then we have the trial against in 1985, we have the trial against those who were. I mean, not all of them, but the generals and the presidents of Argentina from 1976 to 1983, they were prosecuted. There was oral and public trial. And we were watching the trial every day on tv. Yeah. And we learn a lot of things. We learned because some people survive after the concentration camps and they were there telling the whole cities and so far the whole Argentinian say that what had happened to them, the tortures, the fact that maybe they knew somebody who was pregnant and that they take the baby away and then she disappeared. So there are quite a lot of things that we learned during the first democratic government. This is why we have the mothers of Plaza de Macho. But we also have the great mothers. The great mothers of Plaza de Mayo. Sorry, the grandmothers of Plaza de Mayo. And Argentina became a pioneer in DNA test during the democratic regime because. Well, there were a lot of. There were a lot of people that were buried in different cemeteries. And so they. Well, there was a commission who also started to look for where they were, who they were. And so there is a genetic base which has been developed by the mothers and the grandmothers to learn about the whereabouts of their kids and the grandkids.
- [32:30]
C
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- [32:50]
A
50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for 3 month, $90 for a 6 month or $180 for 12 month plan. Taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms. And the article gives us a feel for how long these women persisted and how difficult it was for them. You talk about how the dictatorship started, what in many ways sounds like a smear campaign to demonize, to deny, to discredit. And so they came up with a pejorative name for, for the women mocking their mental health and their well being at a time of massive grief and fear. They. They tried to make them sound just unbelievable. They. Well, you said. Well, some people were privately sympathetic.
- [33:39]
B
They.
- [33:40]
A
They felt they couldn't publicly express support because of the fear of repression, because of social consequences. But the government also stepped it up and they disappeared three of the women in this group.
- [33:53]
B
Yes. Yeah. One of the founders Also disappeared. Yeah. I mean, it was very tough at that time. Yeah. To defend the mothers, or we were. First of all, you have to think that there was no freedom of press. Right. So the newspapers, the TV channels, everything was basically distributing the discourse from the military dictatorship and making those who have disappeared as murderers and that they belong to garisha movements and horrible people. So a dictatorship, the manipulation of the press is crucial. And it's fear. Everybody, everybody was afraid in Argentina. Maybe the mothers were the ones who show a lot of courage because they were desperate. And when we are mothers, we realize, I would do the same if one of my kids disappear. And so it gave us quite a lot of. It was really. It was very difficult to live under a dictatorship. It's very difficult, especially because you are bombarded all the time with information which is not true. For instance, there was a very famous case also related to the Argentinian Embassy in France that also disappeared. And the French government started to put quite a lot of pressure on the military dictatorship. And, you know, the propaganda there was that, you know, France was a horrible country and that, and that, you know, they were all communists and, you know, all these type of things, and that the communists were eating babies, you know, was. The propaganda can be extremely, extremely powerful. Right. And so they were many doubts in Argentinian society at that time. If you didn't have an experience like the mothers had, if you were completely an outsider from politics, you were bombarded by different information. And it was tough. It was very tough.
- [36:30]
A
The article makes a really important point that so much of the support had to come from outside because of the conditions within the dictatorship and that by the women persisting. International human rights organizations started to take notice, some foreign journalists began to take notice, and some religious institutions. And they all played a crucial role in legitimizing the claims the mothers were making, but also in bringing the story outside the country to other places where help and pressure might. Might come from.
- [37:05]
B
Yes, yes. As I mentioned, France was a very important supporter of the mothers. And Jimmy Carter, the President of the United States, if I'm not mistaken, he called for a Christmas without political prisoners in 1977. So Jimmy Carter also was somebody who was, you know, putting quite a lot of pressure on the military dictatorships. But, you know, then with Ronald Reagan, it was completely different. Yeah. And so some countries make the effort. There were a lot of exiles from Chile that went to Scandinavian countries, for instance, and were really very welcome in Scandinavian countries because the Pinochet dictatorship was exactly at the same time. So it really Depends on who was in government at that time. But there were a lot of international cooperation with those who went into exile to different European countries or even in the United States. United States. But I remember that, if I'm not mistaken, it was 1977 that Jimmy Carter promoted Christmas without political prisoners in Latin America. Nobody paid attention, of course, but he did. Carter did.
- [38:49]
A
The article also makes a strong point that the democracy that came about was. Was in part built by mothers. You give numerous examples throughout the article of the. Of the work of the mothers, but I want to highlight a few more in the time that we have left. Even while they were being discredited and were living in fear, they continued to be this brave force for moral resistance. You say that over time, the evidence of the forced disappearance became undeniable. There was no point in denying it anymore when people, too many people knew that too many people were missing and had witnessed too many things. But the mothers did something that was a step further. They played a fundamental role in convicting dozens of military officials for their crimes against humanity. And that meant they had to repeatedly testify against military officials. I think of the emotional toll on these women to keep doing what they were doing. And then even in court, where they might have felt more safety than they had before, it still must have been terrifying to tell these stories in a room with the perpetrators.
- [40:00]
B
Yes. Yeah. No, it was terrifying for them. And, you know, they use. I don't know, they use a white. How do you say? Handkerchief in their head. Yeah. And when it was the oral and public judgment of the military, of the main military juntas that governed Argentina from 1976, 1976 to 1983, the justice system asked them that they have to take out this white thing that they have in the head. But this is their symbol, Right. And there are a lot of images in YouTube when this was done by judges or the prosecutor came close to one of the mothers and asked to take her this thing out, and they refused. They refused. They were very strong because they knew that they were right, that the state has the justice system, the police, the armed forces, they have a lot of legal instruments to prove if somebody was a murderer, if somebody was, whatever. And they didn't do it, they did it illegally. So I think they were very strong because they knew that they were right. And after many years, I think the whole Argentinian society also understood that this is the powers of the moms that they were fighting because they need to know where the kids were, and they have every right to know where the kids were. Even if the kids have done something against the law, the state has to protect even those who did something wrong. And so it took some time for the Argentinian society to respect the moms because they became very politicized, or they were politicized by outsiders, whether they were on the left or the right or. But I think everybody understood, the majority of Argentinians understood that they were crucial in building democracy just because they were asking for justice. And there is no democracy if there is no justice system.
- [42:54]
A
At the end of the article, you say the mother's activism, which continues today, has helped sustain public pressure in Argentina for accountability and to transform private trauma into collective political action. You go on to say that the killings in Minneapolis inspired you to recount this story for a simple reason. And you say the government can protect, condemn or kill Argentine history shows that it matters how society reacts to state terrorism. Would you like to say more?
- [43:25]
B
Yes. Well, I think that, you know, nowadays we are seeing that in. In different places in the world, the state is failing to protect citizens. I think who is in the government really matters. And we have seen in many cases in history where the state is the one who is violating human rights. And we have to be very careful because this undermines the legitimacy of the state, the legitimacy of the three powers of the state, the judiciary, the executive, the legislative. And what we are seeing today, it reminds me of. Of what happened in Argentina in the 1970s. I think that the one who is in power, it's crucial to see how he or she behaves and relates with the other powers, with the legislative and the judiciary. The power of the police. Yeah, because the police had to. Had to respect the law. Yeah. Even if they. Even if, you know, if they're in front of a criminal. Right. But they have to respect the law. Yeah. They cannot just kill somebody because it's a. Well, because they feel that it's the right thing to do. They have to be threatened by that person, you know, and so it is very worrying what is happening in many parts of the world. And it is very worrying what is happening, especially in the United States, because the United States, with all the, you know, I am from Latin America, so the relationship with the United States has always been difficult for Latin Americans. But this is still, you know, a liberal democracy. And if into a liberal democracy we see things that are happening now in the United States and there are no consequences, there are no legal consequences, well, then the rest of us get very worried. Democracy is no longer the only game in town. And this is very worrying. And especially when you see that there is an undermining of democracy in places like the US or, or in Europe.
- [46:22]
A
My final question is, what do you hope listeners will take away?
- [46:26]
B
Well, I think that is the fact that the state can become illegal and can't conduct illegal activities. And what are the consequences for that? Because one, one day it's against somebody that we don't know. And we don't really, you know, we have nothing in common with this person. Like it was in Argentina, there were a lot of families that didn't react to what happened to those who disappear. Because it didn't happen to me. It's happening to my neighbor. But okay, you know, I don't know what this with his son or daughter were involved in. Yeah, but it can. If it happens to your neighbor, it can happen to you. We need to be aware that the power of the state has to be controlled by the legislative, by the judiciary, by civil society, by NGOs and political parties. If the state becomes. If they feel that they can do anything and they can kill anyone or put in jail somebody who is 5 years old or kidnap a baby, a newborn. Right. Because they think that his or her mother was a terrorist. Because these babies were then given in adoption to another families. We have to be very careful about the power of the state and the power of the state vis a vis citizens that are unanimous. And they have every right to complain in a nonviolent way, which were the images that we have seen very recently. And it's very Warren. And maybe we have to defend democracy, we have to defend liberal democracy and we have to defend the justice system.
- [48:42]
A
Thank you so much for being here today, Dr. Laura Tedesco, and sharing from your article how government killings and kidnappings in Argentina drove mothers to resist and revolt and eventually won. You've been listening to the academic life. I'm Dr. Christina Gessler inviting you to please join us again.
- [49:00]
B
It.