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- [00:02]
Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
And Doug.
- [00:03]
Commercial Narrator
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Dr. Karen Messina
Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera.
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
They see us.
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- [01:30]
Welcome to psychoanalytic Perspectives on Racism in America. This series explores the enduring presence of racism and the psychoanalytic mechanisms that sustain it. Drawing inspiration from key works and current research, hosts Dr. Karen Messina and Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams explore the complexities of racism through the lens of psychoanalysis as they foster a crucial dialogue on racial inequality. Here are your hosts.
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Dr. Karen Messina
Welcome to the Psychoanalytic Perspectives on Racism in America. I'm Karen Messina, your host, along with my Wonderful co host, Dr. Felicia Powell Williams. Today we're going to talk about the unconscious calculus of justice, racial bias in legal outcomes. This is a case I've been wanting to talk about for quite a while, several years. Well, we didn't have the podcast several years ago, but I've been waiting to see the outcome of this case. And lo and behold, we did get information. We as a country got information this July. So the outcome is fairly recent. I guess the whole picture is fairly recent. So it's a very curious story. The Department of Justice on July 17th rendered a decision, and that was of the three men who were involved, one was sentenced. His name was Brent Hankison. He was sentenced to initially, he was sentenced to one day in jail, which was, of course, time served. Now, there was an outcry and people were outraged about that, as most anyone could imagine, I think. And the sentence was eventually changed. It was somewhat longer, but they said, they, the Justice Department said that he had expressed Remorse and that he did have mental problems and he was permanently barred from any future law enforcement positions. But nevertheless, one day's outrageous. His charge had to do with civil rights violations. I believe it was firing a gun into a building. Who actually killed her were Jonathan Mattingly, I believe in Miles Cosgrove. But they weren't tried. So that's still curious to me. I don't understand that. I do notice I remember Brianna's mother feeling that that was a slap in the face and boy. But I feel that and much more. So it's still curious to me. I don't really understand it. I think it has to do with racial bias, obviously, but still it's a lot to take in. So despite the proclamations of impartiality, the laws don't often protect black people in the same way that they do white people. So that's enough of my opening thoughts. Felicia, what do you think?
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
Thank you, Karen, for sharing those thoughts. We're getting into a place now where we are looking at how one group might be very othered. And this is really important as we look at it from a psychoanalytic perspective. And so as we continue this discussion, I think this is going to be really important to hold onto. And hopefully as we share this information with our viewers, that this will resonate for others who are doing the work, psychoanalytic work or psychodynamic work, what this might mean in those consulting rooms in regards to this particular case. I think it's a wonderful example, as we will see a little bit more and discuss a little bit more today, the disavowal and the meaning of that, the disregard how one might experience or two individuals might experience the same situation, their perceptions. But looking at power and holding of that power and the use of that power to be an authority to decide what is just again, the disregard of the other. So I think we'll have some wonderful discussion today to look at this.
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Dr. Karen Messina
Absolutely. I'm glad you brought up disavowal because there's a sense of knowing and yet not knowing. It's different than denial, which is kind of not consciously, but one mind, one's mind just goes there. But this is knowing and yet not knowing. You might think of it as black death as public spectacle and white remorse as resolution. That seems to be a mindset of many. And it does seem that state sanctioned violence against black bodies has been followed by what could be described as a ritualized performance of remorse. It appears that people are remorseful and it appeals seems to appeal to good intentions. But there's also an attempt to blame individuals or someone might say bad apples. I think a good example of this is George Floyd. I mean, I think that the white officers involved were thought to be bad apples. And yet what's really happened since then, there was public outcry, but we're not specifically talking about that case. But where are people with that? Are they even thinking about it? Do they even remember it? So I don't want to get off track, but because we're talking about the case of actually Breonna Taylor and another woman who I thought we might compare a white woman killed by a black officer. And of course we have Breonna Taylor killed by white officers.
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
If you don't mind, Karen, I'd like to back up a little bit and go back into something that I noted. And that is how the system attempts to avoid guilt. That's really important. And doing so by not denying the facts of an event. How might we begin to, as you mentioned earlier, disavowal is not denial, but it's knowing but not knowing. And there is. This is so important for us to hold on to because I think that oftentimes when we look at defense mechanisms, they tend to integrate in ways in which we lose sight of really what's happening in the moment. It's just a disregard or it is a way in which we can, or an individual can put away something that's really uncomfortable for them. But when we start to talk about disavowal, we are talking about knowing that there is something, but also not knowing. And what is in the not knowing? Yeah, what is, is that a denial? Are there threads of that that tend to get woven into a disavowal? Because when we begin to look at the various cases and we can look at this historically, there is a knowing of something, but a not knowing. And is the not knowing a matter of turning one's head because it's too difficult to tolerate the frustration or the fear or whatever that aggression perhaps that one is carrying with them? And so to be there and not know may be easier than to take the reality of knowing and being able to speak to that.
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Dr. Karen Messina
Right.
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
We can all think from a clinical standpoint with many of our cases. How might we sit with knowing but not knowing? How might we sit with a disavowal? You know, what gets brought in, but also how do we get become a part of maybe a transferential or a counter transference enactment that may occur within our own work with our patients? So I do sit with that and wonder out loud with you and with our listeners, you know, how might that be work? How might we think about this?
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Dr. Karen Messina
It's an excellent question and I often find, which is not directly what you're saying, but it is, I think it's woven together with it is that one defense mechanism often kind of folds into another. So while partially is an element of denial, it is a just denial because of the knowing part. It's not that people don't know, they don't want to know, but they do know in many cases. It sounds like you have some thoughts about what it's like to sit with this. Would you like to share those?
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
Well, you know, in sitting with this, I think about we bring up the Brianna, Brianna's case and just the utter disregard for this life. And I recall those moments when we as just human beings, as a community within our country when Brianna was murdered, how there was a clear understanding of something that happened and we can all be with the unfortunate situation that someone was killed and it wasn't really thought about on another end of how.
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Dr. Karen Messina
Might.
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
We consider her death as something that was really unjust. And so as we begin to mobilize that thought, then there was this whole disregard for her life that she was just a human being that was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Dr. Karen Messina
I think she was she was in the right place at the right time. I think that the officers were in the wrong place at the if I may, she was, I believe she was in bed sleeping.
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
She was. That's what was reported.
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Dr. Karen Messina
And suddenly she was no longer sleeping, but she was dead. So it just, it's outrageous and really hard to comprehend that.
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
But again, when we talk about knowing and not knowing, knowing that she was this innocent person that was in her own home, but not knowing and again, just, well, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time is what was thrown out there. But you put your finger on the reality and sometimes that reality is what we don't want to look at. And the reality was she was in the right place at the right time and that someone invaded that space and threatened that space. And in that moment there was this way of trying to justify.
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Dr. Karen Messina
Yeah.
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
That what was being done was within some type of boundary. And so it takes away from the reality of what actually happens.
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Dr. Karen Messina
Right. And the other thing that's troubling to me is that the justification, it, it lasted so long, it's still present as far as I'm concerned. But like four years, I think it was because Breonna Taylor was a black woman. I think if she had been a white woman, there would have been a call to action. It wouldn't have taken four years for somebody to be sentenced.
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
How do you understand that?
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Dr. Karen Messina
Karen Well, I understand it as racial bias. Let me just mention another Woman who I thought we would talk about today without going into too many of the details, but I believe it was 2017 when a white woman, I believe it was in Minneapolis, her name is Justine Rustic Demond, was killed by a black police officer. Two officers were in a car, and she came towards the car and she was shot and killed. That case was settled pretty quickly. And the police officer, I mean, nobody considered a will a day is absurd. It's too absurd to even think about. But initially this man got 12 and a half years, I believe. Now, I think that maybe the state Supreme Court lowered the sentence to maybe four and a half years, but still, it's a whole lot different that even contemplating one day, I don't even know how anybody could even publicly make that statement that he was going to be sentenced for one day. It was so absurd. So then I think the answer is racism.
- [19:09]
Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
And I would agree that you're right. We're looking at this racial bias. For Breonna Taylor, there is this.
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Commercial Narrator
An.
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Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
Unjust decision made that he would go in, the officer would go in for just one day. And so when we start to think about these biases, then there's also what we would state is one group placing value on the other group, you know, and what is justifiable and how that gets determined by a group. And so at some point it is shown that there is only the value of this life is worth one day in jail. So it's very disturbing. It's very difficult to hold on to. But, you know, how often might we hear of this within the work that we're doing and where we may hear these unjust situations that will occur? And how do we begin to navigate our way as well as help those that are with us to navigate their way in understanding the injustice? And in doing that, it may be really important for us to look at what is it. And we've already started with this, and we've talked about this in other podcasts, but what is it that makes it really hard to sit with one's own feelings of not necessarily injustice, but feeling, you know, not valued within oneself, but one's own sadness, one's own anger? Those particular pieces are extremely important. And how we then begin to project so that we can feel more powerful and capable of going out into the world, so that we are projecting that onto another group and devaluing in our own minds what that might, what that group or that person is all about. So that is really an important piece for us to sit with here, because as we talk about Brianna. And then you give this beautiful comparison with her and Justine that is, you know, definitely a concern. And we see this often in many cases within the public eye where there is something that's being done quickly for one group versus the other, you know. But again, how do we sit with the projections and the denial of looking at what's actually being done? Because usually there is a justification given.
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Dr. Karen Messina
I was internally smiling about one thing that you said, of course, not about the case, but about what happens to us. And the smile was about. You often take me to my favorite defense to talk about, which is projective identification. I think what happens is we often don't sit with it, but project it onto others, to other groups. They're the less than people, they're the bad people, they're the racist, they're this, they're that. So that we don't have to have that feeling, just get rid of it. It's you, it's not me. And temporarily, consciously, that works. But it brings me back to. Or it brings me to another defense mechanism which is very powerful in this case, and that is the return of the repressed. It doesn't go away if it isn't worked through. It returns. And I think in Brianna's case, there have been so many. Well, there were protests, but a lot of Brianna is with us. It's in art, it's in documentaries, it's in community rituals. So Brianna has stayed with us that maybe while we're talking about this case, approximately five years after it happened. So the return of the repressed is powerful. If it's not worked through, it comes back. So I think this is a good.
- [24:03]
Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
Well stated here. And I'm thinking about something that we talk about often, and I feel the importance of mentioning that right now is, you know, we're often, you know, really insecure about things that we don't know. Sometimes there's in our own curiosities. We get excited and we want to learn. But, you know, early on in our own human development, we become very complacent with what's there. We learn how to navigate our way through our environment and form those secure attachments. And of course, there are those moments of insecure attachments that seem to also help in establishing the use of those defense mechanisms as well, but also in thinking about what feels comfortable for us, what are we familiar with, what do we see a lot of. And when we become uncomfortable with experiencing something that is out of our norm, then that creates a lot of thought and feeling, a lot of fear. And, you know, I always say, I would hope more. More curiosity and wanting to learn and know. But because of those moments, there is this need that we hold on to very early on, that if it doesn't look like us, if it doesn't think like us, if it doesn't feel the way we imagine it should feel and exist the way that we do, then there's something different. And can we tolerate that difference, or do we become frightened of that difference? And if we're frightened of that difference and that difference is able to move and exist in its own way without any type of hesitation or resistance, might we become angry? But that we're not moving, you know, that we then become, in a moment of comparison, you know, that that group, that or that individual who is really insecure about themselves, which then creates this. This moment of a bias. And it could be whether it's a racial bias, whether it's a bias with age or intellectual ability, if there's a bias with disability, whatever that diversity might be, there's something there that does get in the way of us being able to experience and take in all of the different blooms of life, you know, of human existence, that there is difference and there's beauty in that. But for. For some groups, if it's not like me, if it doesn't walk like me, talk like me, then there's something wrong. And I am needing to find a way to feel dominant within myself because there's something not right with this other group. And so I think that's important to hold on to, because we will see, see that instead of the learning and the embracing and being able to establish a community that's full and robust with all sorts of differences, because we learn and grow from difference.
- [28:03]
Dr. Karen Messina
Right. We're seeing this, well, this sort of thing a lot in various cities, specifically where I AM in the D.C. region this particular year. It's really, really quite disturbing. But that's another podcast for another.
- [28:27]
Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
That's true. That is true.
- [28:31]
Dr. Karen Messina
I have a question.
- [28:33]
Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
Yes?
- [28:34]
Dr. Karen Messina
What would justice look like if we dared to take Psychic Life seriously? If we grappled with these profound emotional and psychological differences and the impact that these differences have, what would that be like? I mean, that's also another podcast, but I thought you might have some thoughts. I just talk about a fair world, and we're not in one right now.
- [29:06]
Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
Exactly, Exactly, Karen. And in my own denial, I'm always a little bit more optimistic than I should be. But that's my wish also, and the wish to be able to embrace these differences, to integrate the thoughts of all of the various minds that are out there because we all have something that can contribute to, you know, our own communities, our own environment. And so, you know, when I think about this, if I'm hearing the question correctly, I would hope that, you know, taking that in will offer a place of exploration and being able to hear and see each other and hold that in with out so much of a resistance or a hesitation for feeling some level of insecurity or need to dominate. But to just freely be and be able to join together and go back to really needing community in order to mobilize growth, in order to create, create something that could be so beneficial for who we are as a society.
- [30:36]
Dr. Karen Messina
Absolutely. Interestingly enough, I think you'll find this to be interesting. I think maybe we do this by this together because A, we get along and B, I think we think in terms of. And what made me think of that was when you were talking about your optimism. Someone sent me a substack article a week or week and a half ago and somebody had done a pretty thorough job of going through the fall of democracy over the ages in various countries and regions. And this person was not optimistic. This person said, it has never really come back and nor will it here. And I thought to myself, now wait a minute. A, this person isn't clear, the writer isn't clairvoyant. So we don't know what's going to happen. It is scary, absolutely. I'm the first one to admit that. But we don't know what's going to happen. And also I thought, where's the hope? Once we lose hope, what do we really have? So I just, I was just reminded of that. So I had to write a response and send it back to the person who sent the first, the first article to me. So it just reminded me of your, your optimism.
- [32:05]
Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
My hope when, when thinking about Breonna Taylor, I said with that word, hope. You know, hope was something that was, was there. It was there with, you know, President Obama. It was there. You know, it's a word that just exists to have hope, to have possibility, to have another lens, to have a view, to have possibilities. You know, hope brings forth light. It doesn't lead us into darkness. You know, we, when we are sitting with hope, we know that there is some direction in which we can go that will be hopefully productive and that will be something that we can embrace and there will be a possibility for us to be able to exceed or, or, or, or grow in some type of way. And that was something that existed with the Breonna Taylor case is that there would be hope, that there would be an understanding of seeing the value of life and that it wouldn't just be for one group or population, but the hope that we could see that we all exist and that there is difference, but there should be a respect for life and there shouldn't be any type of qualification of how that respect should be given. But there was hope. And I think that oftentimes, and even now, each and every day, as the world continues to turn and the world continues to provide us with all of these new experiences, that there is hope in being able to move from where one discomfort into something that can be pleasing and gratifying. And not that we will stay in that, that pleasurable place all the time, but the hope that we can all be able to see that together. And oftentimes, you know, our lens are not compatible. They're. They're not in the same focus as we would hope they would be and not with the same thought and intent as we hope they would be. But there's hope. And in that hope, you know, that leaves us to wanting to move into a place that would be a little bit more optimistic, you know, than, than what we're sitting in right now. I'm remembering a question quote, and I'm not sure if it's a quote, but maybe a statement that was made. As African Americans, we are some of the most forgiving individuals because time after time we endure an injustice and you know, whether it's just the day to day injustices, prejudices, isms that we sit with, there is this constant forgiveness of what's there because of a hope that we can get to another place. I hope that we can all meet up at the mountaintop and be able to sit together and be able to embrace that dream that Martin so beautifully shared with us and so in his dream. So, you know, we have to be mindful that we are very forgiving. But we have to also wonder about in the forgiveness, does that cause us to deny sometimes the reality of the hurt and the pain that is there that we experienced with both of these cases that you brought up with us today.
- [36:14]
Dr. Karen Messina
Well, thank you so much for sharing your sense of hope and the pain that black people experience every day. I can't ever know that pain. So there's no reason to say I know it because I can't know it. But I. I can come to and think I have come to understand it somewhat from you and from my patients who feel it intensely and with them I feel it too, as much as a white person can. I believe that I do. But it isn't the same. And I think people kid themselves when they think that they can understand. You can't understand totally. So I think we could talk about this for a very long time, but maybe we can end with your idea about the Hope in Hope.
- [37:19]
Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
Oh, yes.
- [37:20]
Dr. Karen Messina
Pick this up again in our next podcast.
- [37:25]
Dr. Felicia Paolo Williams
Yes, we can. There's so much there for us to continue to explore, so I look forward to it.
- [37:32]
Dr. Karen Messina
Okay, so bye until next time and thank you so much for participating and for people who listen. Thank you very much and please share. Okay, bye. Bye.
- [37:54]
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