Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Jessica Zhu
Guest: Thomas J. Mazanec, University of California, Santa Barbara
Book Discussed: Poet-Monks: The Invention of Buddhist Poetry in Late Medieval China (Cornell UP, 2024)
Date: January 5, 2026

This episode features a rich and multifaceted conversation between host Jessica Zhu and Professor Thomas J. Mazanec about his open-access book. The discussion explores how a distinct tradition of Buddhist poetry was “invented” in late medieval China—specifically, the phenomenon of “poet-monks”: ordained Buddhist monks who became recognized poets. The episode covers both the history and the unique poetics developed by these figures, using both quantitative (social network analysis) and traditional close-reading methods.

Introduction & Author's Journey ([01:07]–[07:08])

Jessica Zhu opens by introducing Mazanec’s background and the innovative blend of methodologies in his research—social network analysis and traditional literary analysis. She praises the book’s luminous treatment of overlooked Buddhist poets and their religious-literary creativity.

Thomas Mazanec recounts his unconventional path: “It was really a whim that brought me into studying Chinese…once I started studying the language, I just kept at it” ([03:46]). He describes his fascination with Tang poetry and the serendipitous discovery of unusual Buddhist poems—such as those repeating characters three times in a row. Drawing on his religious upbringing, he notes, “I figured, well, why aren’t these two fields [Chinese poetry and religion] speaking to each other?” ([06:42])—a question that underpins his project.

“A lot of the scholarship I had seen on Tang poetry was…done in isolation from the scholarship on Tang religion. And very little…these two fields spoke to each other…shouldn’t someone try to bring these together?”
—Tom Mazanec ([06:42])

Structure of the Book & Opening Poem ([07:08]–[14:20])

• Jessica Zhu outlines the unique two-part structure: Part 1 (History), Part 2 (Poetics), each with three chapters. She appreciates the integration of history and close literary analysis.
• Zhu highlights Mazanec’s central claim that poet-monks dismantled the dichotomy between “religion” (private, monastic) and “secular” (poetry, literati) by fusing Buddhism and Confucian classicism.

Mazanec contextualizes the parallel development of lyric poetry and Buddhism in China (~1st century CE) and their eventual convergence in the Tang Dynasty, especially after the An Lushan Rebellion. He reads his translation of Qiji’s poem (“Stirred by a Whim in Mid Spring”), emphasizing its blending of Confucian, Daoist, and Buddhist language to illustrate the “mutually illuminating” relationship between poetry and spiritual practice:

“We have this idea of the underlying pattern, the li, the ultimate reality, being accessed kind of in two different ways, both through poetry and through religious methods, religious cultivation.”
—Tom Mazanec ([11:56])

Part 1: History

1. Formation and Social Networks ([14:20]–[19:22])

• Zhu praises Mazanec’s fusion of digital social network analysis with traditional humanistic inquiry.
• Mazanec explains the emergence of poet-monks in the late 8th century after the devastation of the An Lushan Rebellion, mass migration of educated elites to the Jiangnan region, and developments in both literature and Buddhism.
  • The first “poet-monk” label applied to an identifiable social circle (e.g., Jiaoran, Yan Zhenqing).
  • Their emergence links to the spread of tea culture (e.g., collaborating with Lu Yu, author of The Classic of Tea).

Notable Moment: Zhu directs listeners to “take a look at the graphs generated through social network analysis” to appreciate surprises—like the unexpected connectivity of minor monk-poets.

2. First Generation and Liminality ([19:22]–[27:05])

• Focus on the mixed reception of poet-monks as “secondary elites”—admired, yet kept at arm’s length by literati.

• Mazanec illuminates the subtle politics of praise and exclusion:

  “They’re praising these monks, but…in a way that still keeps them at a distance…There’s some degree of agency in the poet monks themselves…to use it for their own benefit, to fall into this role even if it reduces their actual complexity.”
  —Tom Mazanec ([25:53])

• Detailed discussion of Lingyi, Jiaoran, Lingche, and their ambivalent depiction by mainstream critics, often as paradoxical or “oxymoronic” figures.

3. Becoming a Tradition ([27:05]–[34:09])

• Mazanec maps the “multiplicity” of the poet-monk identity:
  • From a social label to a recognized literary role, lineage, and self-conscious tradition.
  • Poet-monks claim and playfully perform their dual identity, with increasing acceptance—sometimes full, sometimes partial—by literati.

“They’re both full-time monastics…and also practicing this Confucian literati art…what’s interesting then is that literati seem to be much more into it and accepting of it…and sometimes they’ll highlight more of their Buddhist practices.”
—Tom Mazanec ([31:33])

Part 2: Poetics

4. Repetition, Triplication, and Negation ([34:09]–[42:40])

• Mazanec analyzes unique poetic techniques cultivated by poet-monks, especially “retriplication” (repeating characters/ideas three times) and complex uses of negation.
• Discusses the Buddhist “Catuṣkoṭi” (四句, fourfold negation, as in Nāgārjuna)—its philosophical basis and manifestation in poetic language.
• Reads a “mind-bending” anonymous poem from Dunhuang, which showcases philosophical complexity and linguistic innovation:

“What’s unique…is how this philosophical discourse then creates new possibilities for what people can do in poetry on just a simple verbal level.”
—Tom Mazanec ([41:46])

5. Incantation, Sonority, and Foreignness ([42:40]–[50:39])

• Explores “incantatory” patterns in the poetry, often derived from Buddhist Dharani (spells) and sutra recitation.
  • Some poems were physically included in ritual manuscripts, valued more as performative utterance than literary text.
• Mazanec reads Qiji’s poem “Given to the Sutra-Minding Monk,” highlighting how the blending of Sanskrit (by way of transliteration) and Chinese poetics creates a third, transcendent sonic register.

“[Qiji] sees this as this harmonious combination of Indic Buddhist culture and Tang classical Chinese culture mixing together, becoming some other third elevated thing…in the very sound, right? In the very patterns and structures of sound.”
—Tom Mazanec ([48:19])

6. Meditation, Effort, and Absorption ([50:39]–[59:25])

• Tackles the evolving equation of “poetry as meditation” (and vice versa). For Tang poet-monks, this was not a metaphor but a lived confluence of practices.
  • Buddhist notions of “absorption” parallel elite poetic ideals of diligent craft.
• Reads Qiji’s poem addressed to Jungkook, where “two gates” (poetry and meditation) are routes to the same realization.

“Poetry is one way of accessing that, and meditation is another way…At least as I interpret it, this is a kind of concentration and attention to the physical world and the larger truths contained in it.”
—Tom Mazanec ([55:21])

Conclusion and Afterlife ([59:25]–[65:36])

• Zhu voices sadness at how later literati (e.g., Ouyang Xiu) erased poet-monks from the literary canon.
• Mazanec reads the closing paragraph of his book, calling for scholarly work that bridges disciplinary silos and challenges received categories:

“If as scholars, we do not break down the normal barriers between literary and religious studies…we will continue to overlook such figures as the late medieval poet monks, and we will keep reifying our old categories of understanding Chinese cultural history.”
—Tom Mazanec ([61:17])

• Encourages future comparative work in “religion and literature” beyond the Christian/Western sphere.

Additional Highlights

On Digital Methods ([14:20]; [62:20])

• Mazanec encourages listeners to “check out the graphs and details” generated via social network analysis, available in his open-access materials and GitHub repository.

On the Global Conversation ([62:20]–[65:36])

• Advocates for expanding “religion and literature” studies to include more non-Western traditions and intertextual comparisons.

What’s Next for Mazanec? ([66:52]–[72:28])

• Serving as East Asia editor for JOS/JASPA journal.
• Working on a new translation of 300 Tang Poems (Tangshi Sanbaishou) with selections from traditional commentaries.
• Co-editing The Worst Chinese Poetry: A Critical Anthology, exploring “bad” poetry and changing literary values.
• Encourages others to pursue boundary-crossing research in Chinese and comparative literature.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Literary and Religious Studies Divide:
  “A lot of the scholarship I had seen on Tang poetry was…done in isolation from the scholarship on Tang religion.”
  ([06:42])

• On Radical Innovation:
  “They propose nothing less than a tonsuring of the classical literary tradition.”
  —Jessica Zhu quoting Mazanec ([08:30])

• On Liminal Identity:
  “They’re not in fact poets, but monks or poet-monks.”
  —Jessica Zhu ([21:45])

• On Self-Conscious Blending:
  “Poetry is one way of accessing that, and meditation is another way…”
  —Tom Mazanec ([55:21])

• On Breaking Barriers:
  “If, as scholars, we do not break down the normal barriers between literary and religious studies…we will continue to overlook such figures as the late medieval poet-monks.”
  ([61:17])

Timestamps

• [01:07] Introduction & Mazanec’s journey into the field
• [07:08] Book structure and its methodological innovation
• [10:04] Definitions of "poet-monk" and their philosophical-literary importance
• [15:52] Social network analysis and emergence of the poet-monk identity
• [22:54] Liminality, agency, and literati perceptions of monk-poets
• [29:19] Multiplicity of “poet-monk” as role, label, lineage, identity
• [34:09] Repetition, triplication, and Buddhist negation in poetry
• [42:40] Incantation, sonority, ritual use, and sound as spiritual power
• [52:52] Poetry as meditation: absorption, qinyin, and “two gates”
• [59:25] Conclusion—erasure, boundaries, call for broader scholarship
• [62:20] Digital methods, global “religion and literature” studies
• [66:52] Future projects: 300 Tang Poems translation; Worst Chinese Poetry anthology

Final Recommendation

The episode provides a compelling portrait of how Buddhist monastics fashioned a new literary identity within—and sometimes against—the mainstream Chinese tradition, and how their poetry, blending rigorous craft, incantatory sound, and deep philosophical play, reshaped the spiritual and literary landscape of medieval China. Both specialists and general listeners will find Mazanec’s insights and translations highly accessible, and the conversation encourages further exploration at the intersections of literature, religion, and history.