Podcast Summary: Tim Weiner, "The Mission: The CIA in the 21st Century"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Luca Trenta
Guest: Tim Weiner (Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, historian of the CIA)
Episode Date: September 22, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging interview with Tim Weiner about his latest book, The Mission: The CIA in the 21st Century. The conversation traces the recent history of the CIA, revisits its foundational mission, scrutinizes intelligence and policy failures from 9/11 to the present, examines the agency’s entanglement with targeted killings and torture, and places current threats to the intelligence community in sharp, urgent relief. Weiner’s candid commentary and firsthand insights paint a vivid picture of the agency’s evolving role amid shifting geopolitical and national political crises.

Structure & Key Discussion Points

1. Researching the New Book vs. "Legacy of Ashes"

[02:19 - 05:46]

• Shift in Research Methods:
  • Legacy of Ashes relied on declassified CIA documents; The Mission is driven by on-the-record interviews due to the breakdown of US declassification frameworks in recent decades.
  • “The mission covers the 21st century CIA. We start in the late 1990s. Actually, there aren't any declassified documents. The entire framework of declassification under law in the United States has pretty much broken down. So this is an interview driven book as opposed to a document driven book.” (Tim Weiner, 04:15)
• Notable Interviews:
  • Includes CIA directors and field officers, including Tom Sylvester, the chief of the Clandestine Service until 2025.
• Intended Tone:
  • Weiner hopes the new book is “a more vivid and immediate book” due to fresh interviews.

2. Who Was to Blame for 9/11?

[05:46 - 09:55]

• Shared Responsibility:
  • The 9/11 attacks, according to Weiner, reflect systemic failure across US institutions: the White House, CIA, FBI, aviation and immigration authorities, Congress, and the press.
  • “People talk about intelligence failures a little too freely. Often … what we call intelligence failures are in fact policy failures. The CIA is an instrument, an executor of American foreign policy.” (06:36)
• Warnings Ignored:
  • The CIA warned of the possibility of a “catastrophic systemic intelligence failure” in a classified report dated September 11, 1998.
  • “Three years later came that catastrophic intelligence failure.” (08:43)

3. War on Terror: Torture, Iraq, and Strategic Blunders

[09:55 - 13:24]

• Rushed Into Iraq:
  • Decision to invade Iraq was made at Camp David within months of 9/11.
  • “These guys, meaning the Bush administration, would have invaded, attacked Iraq, if Saddam had a rubber band and a paper clip to put your eyes.” (10:57)
• Faulty Intelligence and Torture:
  • The CIA's “dreadfully flawed estimate” of Iraq’s WMD was irrelevant to Bush’s intention to invade.
  • “It was for want of intelligence, a desperate search for intelligence that the secret prisons were built and torture inflicted on captured prisoners. Want of intelligence.” (12:27)

4. Reputational Damage and the CIA’s Revival

[13:24 - 17:42]

• From Counterterrorism Back to Espionage:
  • Years of focus on counterterrorism swamped the agency’s original spycraft mission.
  • 2017 marked a pivot back to espionage, with new focus on Russia following evidence of election interference.
• Successful Espionage:
  • The CIA successfully penetrated the Kremlin, obtaining Russia’s war plan for Ukraine in 2021.
  • Skepticism remained due to past intelligence failures— “the world said, oh really? Aren't you the people that told us that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? But of course, the CIA was right.” (15:48)
• Burns’ Leadership:
  • Director Bill Burns publicized U.S. intelligence on Russia, spurring NATO action—though it “did not stop the Russian invasion of Ukraine.”

5. Drone Strikes and the Obama Years

[17:42 - 20:39]

• Targeted Killings Become Core Mission:
  • Under Obama, drone strikes surged, shifting from needing to detain suspects to “incinerate than incarcerate.”
  • “He made the decision that it was better to incinerate than incarcerate suspected terrorists.” (18:55)
• Diminishing Returns:
  • Deputy Director Avril Haines convinced Obama drone strikes were “creating more enemies than they were killing.” (19:41)

6. Return of Great Power Competition: Russia & China

[20:39 - 27:18]

• Misjudgments About Russia:
  • Obama’s dismissal of Russia as a “regional power” was a mistake; by 2014, Russia was waging hybrid warfare against the West.
• Chinese Espionage:
  • CIA exploited corruption to recruit Chinese officials, but operational security flaws led to Chinese counterintelligence rolling up the network around 2011-12.
  • “Cash has always been the CIA's best secret weapon.” (23:11)
  • The Chinese moved to massive cyber-penetration, including US government personnel records and telecom networks: “The Chinese want to know us; the Russians just want to screw us.” (25:22)
• Trump and Russia:
  • The nature of Trump’s affiliation with Putin: “Trump is not Russia’s agent. He is Russia’s ally.” (26:50)

7. 2016 Election Interference and Domestic Partisanship

[27:18 - 31:38]

• Delayed Realization:
  • Obama administration and CIA were slow to perceive the scale of Russian interference.
• Exploiting Polarization:
  • Russian strategy: analyze “the wounds in the body politic and then rub salt into those wounds.”
• Current Threats Within:
  • Trump has appointed partisans like John Ratcliffe to senior intelligence posts, deriding the “Russia hoax” and reversing intelligence policy safeguards.
  • “These two have been put in those high places by Donald Trump to destroy the CIA and American intelligence defenses against cyber attacks and foreign espionage.” (29:37)

8. The Burns Era and the Importance of Leadership

[31:38 - 33:48]

• Diplomacy and Spycraft United:
  • Burns harmonized diplomatic and intelligence efforts, achieving “intelligence diplomacy”—“when all the horses are pulling in the same direction, you can accomplish things.” (33:41)

9. The Mission in Balance & America’s Changing Image

[33:48 - 37:51]

• Best Performance = Balance of Missions:
  • CIA performs best when espionage, analysis, and covert action are balanced, not exclusively focused on paramilitary or surveillance work.
  • “Let's remember that the core mission of the CIA from its creation in 1947 is espionage.” (34:54)
• Recruitment & American Values:
  • US used to attract foreign spies by standing for democracy and freedom; “the terrible fact is that the lights on the crowning city on the hill are going out because the President of the United States has joined the authoritarian axis.” (36:04)
• Demoralization:
  • Recent policy and alignment are gut-wrenching for intelligence officers working to support democratic allies like Ukraine.

10. How to Judge a CIA Director

[37:51 - 44:29]

• Orchestra Metaphor:
  • The CIA director is “the lead violin in an orchestra of 18 musicians” (i.e., US intelligence agencies).
  • Success depends on coherence between intelligence and policy set by the President.
• Recent Purges and Loyalty Tests:
  • Under John Ratcliffe, “if you want to be promoted at the CIA, you have to pass an ideological security test, a loyalty test … [you’re asked] Who did you vote for in the last election?” (41:54)
  • “Radcliffe then fired every one of the hundreds … trained up in 2023 and 2024, because these were Biden hires, just sent them packing.” (42:24)
• Dismantling of Diversity:
  • “Diversity was the CIA’s superpower. It’s how they don’t get caught.” (43:06)
• Parallels in the FBI and Pentagon:
  • Similar purges and politicization are eroding national security decision-making across agencies; “we're in a very dangerous place today.” (44:18)

11. A Bleak Present, a Slim Hope

[44:29 - 49:03]

• Are There Grounds for Optimism?
  • “The only way to stop the systemic destruction… will come in November 2026 … [Americans] will have to vote the Republicans out of power in Congress.” (45:11)
• Historical Parallel:
  • Weiner recounts his mother’s escape from Nazi Germany and survival, connecting her resolve to live a life of purpose with his own hope for America.
  • “Her writing and her story and her survival inspires me to this day and allows me to live in hope.” (48:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Intelligence and Policy Failure
  “The CIA is an instrument, an executor of American foreign policy. It does what the President tells it to do.” (Tim Weiner, 08:04)

• On the Drone Program
  “He [Obama] made the decision that it was better to incinerate than incarcerate suspected terrorists.” (18:55)

• On US Standing in the World
  “The lights on the crowning city on the hill are going out because the President of the United States has joined the authoritarian axis.” (36:04)

• On Politicization of the CIA
  “Radcliffe then fired every one of the hundreds and hundreds of newly minted spies … because these were Biden hires, just sent them packing… Diversity was the CIA’s superpower. It’s how they don’t get caught.” (41:54-43:06)

• On Hope Against the Odds
  “Her [my mother’s] writing and her story and her survival inspires me to this day and allows me to live in hope.” (48:42)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Genesis of the Book: [01:07 - 05:46]
• 9/11 and Counterterrorism: [05:46 – 09:55]
• War on Terror, Torture, and Iraq: [09:55 – 13:24]
• 2017 Revival—Russia, Ukraine, Espionage: [13:24 – 17:42]
• Obama Era and Targeted Killings: [17:42 – 20:39]
• Great Power Confrontation (Russia & China): [20:39 – 27:18]
• 2016 Election and Politicization: [27:18 – 31:38]
• Burns & Harmonizing Diplomacy & Intelligence: [31:38 – 33:48]
• Balancing the Agency's Mission: [33:48 – 37:51]
• Role and Judgment of CIA Directors: [37:51 – 44:29]
• Current Dangers & A Story of Hope: [44:29 – 49:03]

Tone & Takeaway

Tim Weiner brings factual rigor, directness, and personal conviction to this discussion. The tone is candid and sometimes urgent—often critical of the agency’s missteps and recent political interference, but not without nostalgia for periods when intelligence and national purpose were better aligned. The episode closes with a personal story, elevating the theme of hope and resilience despite chapters of darkness—whether in a single life or in the life of a nation.

Recommended for listeners interested in intelligence, national security, US politics, or institutional integrity under stress.