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Tom Meschery, "The Mad Manchurian: From the Internment Camps of Tokyo to the Hardwood Courts of the NBA" (Coffeetown Press, 2025)
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- [00:00]
A
Make every get together chill this Memorial Day. Get up to an extra thousand dollars off select top brand appliances like LG plus, get free delivery at the Home Depot. Tackle pool towels and camp laundry with a large capacity washer and host in style with the fridge serving craft ice, mini craft ice, cubed ice and crushed ice. Shop appliance Savings now through June 3rd at the Home Depot. Offer valid May 14th through June 3rd, US only. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $998 or more. See store online for details. Welcome to the New Books Network.
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B
Welcome back to the New Books Network. My guest today is Tom Meshery, author of the Mad Manchurian. From the Internment Camps of Tokyo to the Hardwood courts of the NBA. Tom played 10 years in the NBA. He was an NBA All Star. His number 14 is retired by the Golden State Warriors. After his playing career, Tom coached in the ABA and NBA. He had a long second career as an English teacher and a third career as a writer. In addition to this book, Tom has written a great deal of poetry and a few novels. Tom, welcome to the show.
- [01:15]
A
Thank you, Paul. I'm happy to be on the show with you.
- [01:17]
B
It's such a pleasure to have you on. As I said, I just absolutely love the book. I mean, you have a fascinating story going back to obviously your early years and your heritage. And then really, you kind of kept reinventing yourself, which made for a fun read. The first thing I want to ask you, Tom, is can you pronounce for our listeners, can you pronounce your full name as given to you at birth?
- [01:43]
A
Oh, Tom Nikolaevich. Mr. Teryakov, thank you.
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B
I cannot do that.
- [01:52]
A
Okay. My father, wisely, when we came to the United States in 1946, my father was already here in the States. My mother's sister and I came from the concentration camps in Japan and arrived in the United States in 1946. I mean, he was very, it was about, probably about eight years later during the McCarthy period that my father wisely shortened the name from Mesher Yaakov to Meshirik. So I've always been Mushari. And Army Slav is just a Russian version of Thomas. And so I've always been Tom Macheri ever since those awful McCarthy period days.
- [02:32]
B
Yeah. Can you talk a little about your, your Russian heritage and your ancestry, including one Leo Tolstoy?
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A
Oh, yeah, that's a relative on my mother's side. I, I'm not, you know, I really am not surprised that I turned out in, in my late years to, to be a writer, to, to be A novelist. Because all of Tolstoy's. On my mother's side, there were so many, so many writers, so many novelists. Of course, Leo Tolstoy being the most important, historically the most important. But there was also poets as well. And so, I don't know. It's just part of my heritage. I grew up listening to my mother and my father reciting Russian poems. Poetry is a big, big deal in Russia. For Russian people, poetry is like, you know, Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan. It's like pop music. And we. So I kind of grew up with it. I. I kind of kept it under the wraps while I was a basketball player and athlete because, you know, how, you know, I think the young men, particularly of those day, in those days, you know, kind of thought, well, you know, poetry is for women and, you know, not for men. But, you know, my father was 6ft and he looked like a bear, and he recited poetry. So I said, oh, what the hell, if he could recite poetry, so can I. But.
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B
But you were the. But you were the mad Manchurian, Tom. You're the. Sure, surely. Surely the mad Manchurian could get away with little poetry.
- [04:03]
A
Well, actually, a very good writer for the Philadelphia Inquirers, Andy Padley, later on, where I wrote for Sports Illustrated, Water, Columbia. He was the first guy who picked up on the poetry thing, and he published about three or four poems of mine and in the Philadelphia Inquirer. So that dates back probably around 1963, 64. And so he came out, you know, oh, my God, I'm out of the poetry closet here. And. And the guys on the team, they knew that I had a. Just a slightly fast fuse, so they stayed clear out of marking me. But so I was happy to have that out. And about that, I was a poet, and I've never shirked from it since.
- [04:57]
B
That's funny. It reminds me of I watched a documentary on Billy Joel years ago, the musician. And he talked about growing up. He was a boxer. And he said I had to box in high school so that I could get away with playing the piano.
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A
I'm really interested. I didn't know that he was a boxer. And when I look at it, I can visualize his face.
- [05:20]
B
Yeah, his nose looks like it's been busted a little.
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A
Like he took a couple of shots.
- [05:25]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, the early years of your. Of your life are just fascinating. And, you know, you document in the book, of course, how first your parents, you know, and ancestors fled Russia in the years after the revolution. They fled to Manchuria and then, and then in the war, World War II, you be. You and your mother and your sister became prisoners of war. Well, not prisoners of war, but you were held in an internment camp in Tokyo. And the, some of the details, the memories of that are fascinating. I, I suppose it's, it's interesting the things that stick with us or come back to us or it's also, you know, you touch, you kind of touch on the, the fallibility of memory as well. You know, certain of certain memories where you and your sister for example, had kind of conflic memories of what took place. I mean that, that's, that, that's a, a pretty intense thing for a young child to live through. What are, what are kind of your prevailing memories from your time in the internment camp in Tokyo?
- [06:39]
A
It's, it's a bit of a. Well, it's a bit of a mixed bag because the early years, from the time that we were taken from Harman Manchuria to Japan and then put in a tournament camp outside of Tokyo, those years were aside from the sort of the disappointment I had when we first landed in Japan because I thought we were going to be in America. I was just a three year old and I wanted to see my dad and there was no dad. There was just a light bulb hanging over my head in a room, in an empty room. And so there was that kind of scene of sadness that I tried to recreate in the, in the memoir. But from that point on, when we went to the, the internment camp until the last year of the war, there was nothing. It was a kind of a built in boredom, I suppose. My sister and I were the only two children in the women's and children's camp, but they were all women missionaries and nuns and my mother and, and my sister and I played together and, and the nuns taught us English and French and we spoke Russian mostly, but. And then the last year of the war happened and now that changed just about everything because the American bombers started flying in over, over Tokyo then and firebombed Tokyo and, and that last year was, was a conflict, liberation, fire and fury. And we spend most of our time even in some of the daylight raids in the basement of our internment camp and the nuns and the missionaries praying. I remember all of the various prayers that were being said aloud. My sister and I would climb up through a little tiny window on a ledge and to frightened the hell out of. My mother rushed to try and grab us down. But we managed to peek out and see what was going on. It was horrifying it was like the, you know, the apocalypse. I wouldn't have thought of that at the time, but it had that kind of end of the earth fuming to it. You know, I actually saw parachutes, American bombers being hit by flak and admin and parachutes, you know, sort of slowly floating down out of the dark sky. And it was, it was, it was frightening. And then of course the camp went on, you know, was church next door to the camp while our caught on fire was bombed. And then our camp caught on fire and so we have to go out and we spent probably maybe two months just walking guarded by our guard and our camp director, just walking the streets of Tokyo and it was just a rubble and we slept in the rubble. And I think I mentioned in the memoir that I woke up one morning and turned my head towards a little tiny hand just sticking out of a concrete bricks and just terrified me. And what's interesting, of course, you know, you're. You're a writer, you know that it's memory can be very strange. But as a writer what I found was that the close. The memories of those that last year in Tokyo are. Came back to me while I was writing the memoir in the form of nightmare. The almost as terrifying at my age as they were as a five year old, six year old in Japan. And then of course not coincidentally, once I stopped writing the memoir and sent it off to my editor, lo and behold the memo, the nightmare stopped almost immediately and I haven't had one since. But so Melanie said, well, maybe you should write another memoir. As in not a chance in God Fair. Wow.
- [10:47]
B
Yeah, that is, that is some intense stuff. You know, as you mentioned, I am a writer and by the way, I love that you're. You have a grandson named after Moses Malone.
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A
You bet.
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B
That's great.
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A
Definitely, definitely not the biblical.
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B
Right. So that, so my, my most recent book was a biography of Moses and I'm a very big believer in the importance of place, you know, of, of. And you know, Moses is from Petersburg, Virginia and I had to go to Petersburg and walk around and I did the walk that he did to the playground every day and the walk that he did to high school and saw the different sites and, and of course I felt it was crucial to speak to many, many people from his town and kid, the kid that grew up down the street from him because I think place is such an important play, such an important role in, in the people, in the person that we become. And here you are, Tom, where you know, you talk about in the book, you are legal, legally designated displaced person. You had no place. And really, in, in reality, your family, you know, going back to your parents, were essentially displaced two or three times, right? I mean, they were, they had to kind of flee their homes in Russia and go, you know, east in Russia. And then they left Russia from Manchuria, and then your father left Manchuria for the States where your mother and you and your, you know, you and your sister left Manchuria again for Tokyo and then came to the States. And so you were placeless. And, you know, I, I, you know, obviously that, that was a theme throughout the book. But how, how do you think that affected your development and the person you've become?
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A
Well, it's just, that's an enormous truth. One thing, of course, you're absolutely right, Paul Places. All the great writers I have ever met and enjoyed believe what you believe. Importance of place and how it affects the protagonist, how it affects the character, how it affects the author. But to go on, in my case, it's, I think, bottom line, I think that it made me gravitate to basketball and sports. I, I probably was a natural athlete. I know one of the great ironies is I was a very, very sickly child as a baby. I must have had seven or eight major diseases in China. But I grew up to be, you know, I was already in elementary school. I was tall and I was strong and I was able to run and I could do sports sort of naturally. And, and as I mentioned in the book, one time I kicked a kickball in a gayner. Kickball. Elementary school with a fence. From that point on, some of the kids who were, you know, really mocking me at that time because I was a Communist, I was a Russian, I was a Muskie, I was a Red, a pinko, because this was the McCarthy period, all of a sudden embraced me, you know, and, you know, I might have been raised a foolish child. I got, you know, I said, oh, oh, is this what it's going to, what it's going to take? You know, I'm going to be an athlete. No, I'll be an American if I'm an athlete. And I think one of the things I kind of regret and that I didn't pick up enough on in the memoir was that there was a little bit of a false hope. Sports didn't make me an American. Sports made me a sportsman. It took me a long time to come to grips with who I really was, but it certainly, in terms of plays ball, you're absolutely right. It was, it was that Place that, that moment in place and in time that I believed I could tr. I could stop being displaced and replaced as an American. And I remember very vividly how happy I was and how honored I felt when I first signed my doc, you know, my immigration papers when I was 13 years old and officially became an American. I was like, holy cow, this was terrific. Yeah, it's. I, you know, I have to say that I, I. Sports has been a. One of the most marvelous parts of my life and I, and I'm. And what's really, you know, Melanie jokes a little bit. You know, I started out being a jock and I probably going to wind up being a jock. I'm like glued to the television with these playoffs. I want to see, you know, who the hell is going to win. OKC is looking awful.
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B
Yeah, I, I'm. Although I'm very excited about my New York Knicks right now.
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A
Oh, that's right, you.
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B
Yeah, I'm from the, I'm from New York. So yeah, I, I've, I've been enjoying it, waiting to see who we play in the next round, but feeling good right now.
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A
You're feeling. I tell you what, the mix looking really, really tough and that Carl Anthony Towns has kind of come blossomed a little bit. That makes them even tougher. And I love Mike Brown, my coach, my, you know, was assistant coach with my warriors and on a number of times a real good guy. Got a terrible bad deal with Sacramento. So I'm pulling for him to do very well. I, I think they'll beat Cleveland and I got a strange feeling Cleveland's going to beat the distance. So it's. And that's going to make me sad because I'm a big cat Cunningham. But yeah, yeah, it's basketball. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm a writer, I'm a poet, I'm a teacher. I love teaching. You know, bottom line here I am 87 years old and what am I really? I'm a jock. I'm a basketball player.
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B
Well, I love to hear that. You know, I mean, one of the things I loved about the book too is you pulled no punches when it came to our current president and the political climate in this country and everything that's going on with that. And naturally we're talking about you being an immigrant. How do you feel as an immigrant with the certainly anti immigrant sentiment in the country right now?
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A
Oh, it's so sad, Paul. It's just so sad and so unnecessary. I mean we're a country of inlet branch. We we built the Statue of Liberty. We have a democracy. These poor folks, I mean, they're just poor. They come and they do our crap jobs and this guy thinks they're somehow evil. I mean, it's just total. If I didn't think he was so evil, I would just think he was funny and stupid. But if I take this very, very personally because as, as an immigrant, it's not hard for me to imagine and simply because I grew up during the Macliver period, anyway, I already know what it's like to be haunted and to be called at names and to be, you know, kept aside from society. So I really have a taste of that. I can't imagine what these poor young Mexican and Hispanic and other people of color must feel, how much rated they must feel when their president is talking to them, talking down to them and mocking them. It must just break their little hearts. And hopefully their parents are strong enough to withstand it. But I'm thinking about whether Those kids are 60, 16 and 14 and 10. How are they reacting to this? They, they're in their elementary schools. They have, they have kids looking at them and going, oh, you're brown or you're yellow or you're, you know what, Donald Trump is the macho dude, you know, and he's telling us that, you know, you guys are, they're bad. And we're. So they go to their parents and they say, dad, are you, you're not a killer, are you? You're not a, you know, rapist, are you? And, and of course, how does the father feel? It's just, it's just one of the most horrendous times we're living in. What we're hoping for is that the, in the next elections, we have to count on democracy, we have to count on our Constitution, and we have to finally, hopefully count on the intelligence of the majority of American people that they will come to grips and to come to understand what this very evil man is doing to our country. And in that case, we will wipe him out of the presidency and hopefully gain our constitutional and republic, our constitutional republic. And I pray for that every day. And I'm 87 and God knows, I don't know how many years I have left to live, but I would love to be around when that happened. And so thank you for asking that because I, that really was a kind of a central piece of my book. There were, there were times where I had to regress. I would, I would just switch topics. I, and, and, and talk about our, our. Where I was in terms of time, you know, in the, in the, in the memoir.
- [20:28]
B
Yeah, no, I, and I, as I said, I really appreciate it. I thank you for writing about those things there. You can't have too many people speak, speaking up and, and fighting back. And I think we don't have enough of it at times. I think, you know, I personally have, and you alluded to this at one point yourself, you got kind of depressed about the situation. I vacillate between, you know, diving in head first and then I need to step away for a while because I emotionally can't handle it. And it's. So I, I applaud you for, for speaking up.
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A
Right. And I thank you for your generation and for you and young men and the middle aged men.
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B
I'm 48. We could go with middle aged.
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A
Oh, you're just a baby. And I'm happy, you know, I'm just delighted that there are men that are willing to stand up and talk about this and reveal their emotions. It's straight. I, so anyway, thank you for that.
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B
Sure. You know, as you were saying, you, you know, you were talking about, you know, empathizing with, with young Hispanic children who go home to their parents and, and hopefully they have, their parents have the character to withstand the situation and, and you know, you're obviously, your parents are central characters in your book and obviously very important figures in your, in your life. And naturally they had their share of heartache, you know, dating back to, you know, the revolution in, in Russia and, and subsequent events. And it was interesting to hear, learn how both of them dealt with it. You know, your father was more the quiet type, I think, to just kind of keep that in and not talk about, you know, his experiences in the war and, and afterwards. And your mother was, you know, what came to my mind? Reading about your mother, there's a great, there's a great Joan Didion quote. We tell ourselves stories in order to live.
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A
Oh, gosh, that's. I, I know that quote. That is so fabulous and right.
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B
And it, and it, it applies to all of us. It's a universal quote. But it seemed to take on, be particularly applicable to your mother that she told stories in order for her to live and for you and your sister.
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A
Yes, that's true. And, and I was, I was really a captured audience. My sister, my mother. Some of my mother's stories were, how should I say, a little bit over the top or maybe fantastical, maybe, you know, just wishful thinking. I never could quite figure out all of them, but I, I was Fascinated by them, of course, because they were so historical. All about the revolution during those revolutionary times. Her father was. Was caught up in the Karinsky government in very strange ways. Nikolai L. My grandpa, who I referred to as the. My savior in the novel because you know, he was supposedly anti communist and back in Russia doing secret espionage things that my mother told me about. That was. Those were the stories that were. That kind of kept me going. My sister ignored them. She. I think she understood them and listened to them. But she wanted. She was already on a clear path to being the coo. She wound up to be, you know, years and years later. She had a. She had a goal. I was a little bit more wishy washy at that time and my mother would. Would entertain me and frighten me. And with a lot of these stories, a many of them are true. Many of them turned out to be true. My grandfather was the over procurator of the Holy Synagogue in Russia which under the Kerensky government, which meant that he was the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, the political head of the Russian Orthodox Church. And he did try in many ways to save the Tsar. And he tried to remove Kerensky from the government. Kerensky threw him in jail. He escaped and moved to France. So a lot of the stuff was very historical and some of them proved out, proved to be real. Some of it my mother could never prove. And one of the aspects of the novel was that the, the. At the very end of the novel I, I was. I received a letter from a friend of mine who lived in Russia. That was the last written word by my grandfather, Nikolai Lubov. And it seemed to me the way it was written that he was pleading for his life and didn't want to get shot. And he kind of was saying that he was a good, loyal Communist. Of course my sister doesn't believe that, but, but there it is in handwriting. And I remember getting that letter from my friend and feeling almost overcome with sadness about that because I had always thought my, my grandfather is the absolutely pure anti Communist. Now you have to remember back in those days in the McCarthy period, as I know a lot of people don't understand that, but the color red, you know, they were, you know, McCarthy was bringing people to trial and, and, and banning them. The Hollywood Nine, all of the playwrights from the Hollywood were being banned. It was a, it was a terrible time, you know, and so it was. So those stories. Yeah, and I think Vin is right. Of course we tell our stories. Everybody's got a narrative, you know. There's, I think Pat Riley, if you, if you read some of the stuff that Pat Riley wrote, he, he talks about that need a narrative. And then of course, he's talking about basketball and success and how you become successful and so on. It has nothing to do with some kind of historical narrative. And he talks about that a great deal. Yeah. Don't any ends. Right. He's, he's great too.
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B
Yeah. Wonderful writer. What did, so when did basketball become the thing? When did you, when do, when do you look at it and say I might have a future in this, this, you know, maybe I could, this could get me into college. When, when did, when did that kind of become a central focus for you?
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A
Well, I, I guess I, I guess I could say that for sure. Uh, I mean, I think I had moments believing that I was going to be a good athlete, that I was going to succeed as an athlete. I don't think I ever had many doubts about that after I kicked that ball out the fence. That was a hell of a tick. But when I got to high school, I think that that first year as a high school basketball player, the whole high school in San Francisco was, was. I, I was a, I was about six feet. We, we had mid year graduations in those days. And so I entered high school in January. January 53. 50. Yeah, 54. Bad January. And so I had a summer off and it was at. And during that summer I grew from 6ft to 6 foot 6. And I mean, Dr. Had me in bed and eating, you know, half and half, drinking half and half milk and eating steaks. And he was really worried and I could actually feel my bones. I could feel my, my, the, the knees and so on. It was, you know, it was just a thrust forward like a piece of corn. No, plant of corn. And then I, so I started the next semester, I, I became an all star and as a high, what they call the high freshman. And at that point, I think, I'm not sure, but I think that was the time when I said to myself, I can do. And I think I was shooting more for college than I was. The pros, the pros didn't enter my mind at that point, but I was looking for college and I thought, no, I might be good enough to play in college. And my basketball coach was a terror. Terror? Was it just a terror? And he complimented me one day and I knew that if you got a compliment from Ben Neff, you know, that meant something. And I think it was at that moment. So I'm going to guess that, that high freshman year when I made the San Francisco Bay Area All Star high school team, that was it.
- [29:40]
B
That was the moment you mentioned Coach Neff. That stuff was funny. I mean, you little son of a bitch, you know, that, that coaching style is kind of gone out of fashion now. You know, I don't think you get away with that same stuff anymore. But there are some merits to it, right? I think maybe. I don't know. Well, what do you think, looking back? Oh, no, the coaching style.
- [30:05]
A
Well, it would never. It would never wash today. It's, you know, and it. And it shouldn't. Yeah. Well, it was, you know, racial slurs. And you would call our black players bad names and, you know, and call me a commie. You know, I was, you know, I was a very stubborn youth. I still continued to think of myself, probably stubborn, but I had. I think Ben probably chased away players that could have been good athletes just because he was so contemporous. But he was a great coach. He was a terrific coach. I went into College at St. Mary's College. I went. I came in as a freshman at St. Mary's and I knew more basketball than any of the players, even the varsity players at St. Mary's College. I was a better player. I was more knowledgeable. And everything depended upon everything. Everything I was at that particular moment as a basketball player, I had to do with Ben. Nell. He taught me everything. He was. He was. He made me think of details and to be detail conscious as a player. And I can't thank him enough. But, boy, I would tell you what, he would get sued out or it would be. There would be. There wouldn't be a college or high school or elementary school that would hire Ben. Now,
- [31:34]
B
that's funny. How did you feel when you were drafted by the then Philadelphia Warriors?
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A
Oh, I was. I was thrilled. I was, you know, for one thing, no, I was drafted. It was. There were 10 teams, I believe where it was, there are eight, 10. So I was drafted ninth in the country. You know, my. My ego went right through the roof. I was, oh, hello, I'm ninth best player in the damn country. You know, I must be a really bad dude. And, oh, I, of course I was thrilled. And, and strangely enough, I. I paid very little attention to what that meant financially, probably because I never heard of a lot of financial stuff that had to do with the NBA. I knew that the nibl, the National Industrial Basketball League, which was very popular at that time, especially in the west coast, paid pretty good money and had some really good Situations for athletes to grow in their, you know, their companies. But I wanted to play with big dogs. I wanted to play. At that time, the big dogs were just delineated enough. From the nipl, we knew that Bill Russell was there, Chamberlain was there. I was a real big fan of Tom Gola. There was Bob Pettit, Trish Hagen, all of these, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor. These were the guys that I already had committed now to the NBA. So I knew that the best talent, talent that I wanted to compete against was in the NBA. So I, I assumed the nipl, although I knew that I would have been paid much better there. And I hesitate to say what I, what I received as a contract, but I think I revealed it in the memoir.
- [33:27]
B
Yeah, what was it like? I've seen a lot of footage of Wilt, I've read about Wilt, but what was it like? What was he like as a person? What was it like? What was he like as a teammate, as a friend?
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A
Oh, well, he was the first thing that just can't imagine, and I don't think I imagined it myself when I first met him. I've actually first met him in television called, oh, Allen, I can't remember the name now of the Steve Allen Show. Steve Allen show. That he had the college All Americans and the high school All Americans. That's the first time I met Wilt. You know, you look at Wilt, you look up at Wilt, and it's almost like looking up, you know, further up a redwood tree. It just keeps working. And so you're sort of astounded by it. But when I met him in Steve Allen show, he was nice, nicely dressed, and see him in a uniform with his body, scope and body was just astonishing. And so I was, you know, I was really, you know, I was overwhelmed almost, and, and I sort of stopped. It took me two or three or four practices with him and so on to begin to see him as a human being even. I thought maybe he was really from outer space. I, you know, and I today people ask me, well, what about will not be great guarantee today could he compete against this young ajanu Wembay Nana? And I think he will was young belief. He had great speed and enormous strength. Of course he would be an all star today. Not a whole lot of players from my era that would be all stars, but the ones who were all stars, you know, give or take some training chances, differences would be all stars today. Wilkes and of course, Wilk was a strange guy. He was very complicated and he, he was not Political, like Bill Russell was. So there was always that comparison between Wilt because they, those were the two giants that met each other on the basketball court and fascinated the growing NBA fans. And so he was always sort of the black hat and Bill Russell was always the white hat. And I was really wrong because Will was very sensitive, really wonderful guy in many ways. And we became, we became good friends. And I was just shocked when he died of a heart attack. I thought he would move forever. I think, you know, what? Giant. He's a giant old man. Yeah, I really loved Bill. I thought he was terrific. I admired, I admired Bill Russell, but I really cared for and loved Wilt.
- [36:30]
B
Chamber, we touched on a little bit before you are, and of course, the title of the book, the Mad Manchurian. And it's so funny to me to read your book and, and see what a. You know, you're an intellectual, Tom. You're an intellectual. You're a poet. You're, you know, you're a gentle soul. I mean, I think there's a gentleness that comes across in your memoir. And here you were, you know, this guy who would, you know, fight at the drop of a hat. And you were even crazy enough to go after Wilt once, as you documented in the book.
- [37:10]
A
Crazy.
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B
Now that's mad. Now that is mad. And, you know, it's clear in the book, you, you grapple with that a little bit, with that side of yourself. And I don't know, I, I. How do you feel about that now, looking back? It, it, have you come kind of made sense of that or come to terms with that side of your personality?
- [37:34]
A
I, I think the best I can say about that is that those were moments. It was as if basketball, the sport, was a door I could open and allow whatever fury I had in me to escape. And once the basketball door closed, that part of my life sort of ended. I think, I think the reason why I was so edgy as a basketball player is that I was always, you know, I was an immigrant. I, you know, I was, you know, when's the next meal, next meal coming from? You know, when, you know, when are we not going to be able to pay our rent? You know, it's a whole mindset. You're, you're, you know, you're trying to keep what you have. For me, basketball was so important that I felt anybody who intruded on me or made diminished me in any way, know, was going to get punched, I think sort of like that, I guess, you know, to, to, you know, that's One way I guess I can describe it, I just was, I was holding on and by holding on and, and, and you know, I was, I, I got, you know, I hate that cliche chip on my shoulder, but that's the way I played. I played every game probably in all my 10 years with a, been a huge big, you know, two by four on my shoulder. And once that particular part of my life ended, then I, that I had already matured enough. I think that when that time ended, I didn't need that fury anymore. What I needed was patience, kindness and various things that had to do with teaching. And you can't be, can't be an ass for one bit teach, just can't. Now you can't be a bad person. You can't, you have to brace your kids and mentor them and tutor them and help them. And those were the characteristics that I guess I exhibited and I guess that I embraced after that basketball ended. So that's about the best I can come up with.
- [39:44]
B
What do you think you liked most about being a teacher?
- [39:47]
A
Oh, the kids for sure. Yeah. It's just, they are just, I don't, you know, the thing is there's different levels of teaching. I have a terrific, my, my wife has a grandson who's, I mean a son in law who's an elementary teacher and he's perfect for the job. He's just, he's just really nice, good looking, tattooed guy who, who's. You can just see all these little elementary kids just jumping on his lap and so on. And my daughter is a middle school teacher. She's a big old Russian cow and I can see her success as a middle school teacher. I was made to be a high school teacher. I was born to be a high school teacher. I needed to have kids that I could discuss stuff with and really talk to them on a pretty high level. But all in all it still came down to, to enjoying students. And I've never been able to figure out, you know, I've been enough, you know, teaching rooms, teachers rooms to hear the grumbling that goes on amongst some teachers. It's always the same teachers. I've never been figuring out why the hell they even took the job. Why would you, why would you want to teach if you didn't like kids? So it's really down, down home, it's the kids. I can't, you know, I can't tell you how relieved I am. I don't have to spend up all night, you know, with my red pen and I'm really happy that part of my life is over.
- [41:21]
B
Yeah, I hear that. It's, you know, it's, it's interesting because you were, you had a very nice career. You spent 10 years in the league. We should note you were an all star one season. Your numbers are tired. That's phenomenal. And you also had this long successful career as a teacher. It seems that those two things would blend perfectly to coaching. And you did sub coaching. But I got the sense, reading the book that you felt that it just wasn't a great fit for you.
- [41:52]
A
No, it wasn't. And I should have. Let me put it this way. I, head coach, I, I was not a good fit for a head coach. I think I had some. I really, I think I enjoyed my two years as a, an assistant to Lenny Wilkins at the Portland Trailblazers. During those Walton years, those early Walton years, we weren't very successful. Walton was hurt. But I, I enjoyed that teaching aspect because that's what I was as an assistant coach was more a matter of teaching. It's not so much a matter of strategy or having to be dealing with individual athletes and their egos. When I had the head coaching job in the ABA in North Carolina, I was, I was the top dog. So I had to deal with all of that. And I was, I wasn't good about that. I was, I was very impatient and it was my first job and you know, who knows, maybe, you know, I could, if I could get a whole new life and a whole new history and go back and coach now, you know where I would probably maybe I bearded head coach back then I wasn't, I was inexperienced and I was impatient and I could not stand players who didn't put out a hundred percent. And I didn't know how to get them to do it. To be 100%. And really good coaches will be able to do that. You'll get a guy who's like an 80% ball player, you know, and under a good coach it becomes 100% ballpark. I didn't know how to do that. All I knew how to do was yell and be excited and get, you know, just get all sorts in there. Just feel miserable because I could never figure out how, how to motivate them. I just couldn't get it. And so I was, you know, I was happy that I, I got out of head coaching job. And luckily a very good friend of mine, Mark Strand, who was one poetry of the United States a little later on recommended that I applied at the University of Iowa Writers Workshop. And those were two Great years of my life and kind of molded me in the direction, directed me towards poetry. I haven't looked back since, but I had it like. I had a great time in Portland as a teacher. I. There were some. I had some. A lot of fun working with know, working on players, mechanics, talking to them and getting to understand them, inspiring them. Hope boy, as a head coach, I might have been the worst in the history of.
- [44:22]
B
I doubt that I've seen some pretty bad ones. And you know, I. I think it was very shortly after you retired from teaching, you were diagnosed with cancer.
- [44:34]
A
I was.
- [44:36]
B
How did that change your perspective on life?
- [44:40]
A
Oh, gosh. Well, when the doctor called me and said that that's what my diagnosis was, multiple myeloma. And he was so tactful, he said, well, you know, it's not durable. And almost fainted. And then I got a second. Second opinions. And I came to understand that there was a fixable part of it that I could. I had a chance to live some years after the diagnosis, granted that it is uncurable and eventually get me. But that was. I was 69 years old when that happened and, well, 68, I guess. 68 when that happened. So here I am 20, 26. So I maintained with. With the help of big Pharma, I think I'm supporting big pharmacy
- [45:35]
B
plummets.
- [45:36]
A
You know, you have to understand that what it does is it heightens your sensitivity. I think. I think you have to come to grips with a time period which a lot of people don't because they don't need to. They feel healthy, they feel good, live forever. But when, you know, you have an incurable answer and you know that there is a time limit and you need to try and in my case, I'm pretty compulsive. Lighter. I. To me, lighting is just everything. I just, you know, aside from loving my wife and my children and grandchildren, lighting is. Is what I do. It makes me. It forms who I am. So I'm not sure if I'm a real true American, but. But I, I know that I'm a pretty true writer. Never been able to figure out about that American. Very, very strange. But yeah, you have a timetable and that changes everything. So you, you're. You're hustling a little bit more. At least I am. I, I tend to hustle a little bit more. I tend to be, you know, I tend to want to get projects done. I have things in my mind that I'm like to finish so that you go to sleep at night and say, well, I'M going to wake up in the morning and say, yeah, you probably will, but maybe next week you won't. So there's always a little bit of internal conversation you're having yourself about your own personal life. So yes, it does. It just changes it in many ways. I think it might change you for the good because it does focus your attention. It, it does make you feel more grateful for the things that you've had. You feel more grateful for the people in your life and how good they are and you start hopefully tossing out the negativity. And I think that's at least in the last three or four or five years. That's what I've been trying to do, along with the writing is make sure that I, all the baggage, all the crappy baggage is out of my life, out of my thinking, so I can concentrate on the good. And that's kind of the way I'm approaching life these days.
- [47:52]
B
And, and speaking of the good, as you mentioned your wife Melanie, I love reading about her. She sounds like a wonderful woman and, and it's really a, a charming love story. And I found it inspiring too because of course, you know, you were married once before and for many years and had children and, But I think, I don't know, you know, my, my, my, for example, my father in law dropped dead at 69 years old out of the blue. And my, my mother in law was 66 and it was kind of like, okay, that's the end, you know, that, that the romantic part of my life, the having a partner, that's over, you know, and, and I think, I think we get a sense of, I don't know, some of us believe as we head to our late 60s that okay, we're approaching the fourth quarter here, right. Things are winding down. But I think it's beautiful how you didn't wind down. Even after this cancer diagnosis. You started anew and you started this new, fresh, beautiful relationship. And so I actually found that your relationship and the way you spoke about it very, very inspiring. Why do you think you and, and, and the fabled seem to be such a good fit? Why do you think she, she appears to really bring out the best in you. Why do you think that is?
- [49:16]
A
Well, she definitely brings out the best in me, but I can go back to, you know, I don't know if you know how, how much you believe in fate, but there is an coincidence maybe, but Melanie and I found out later that when I was in St. Mary's College, her father was, had taken a, I was taking A course at the University of California. And she and her parents were living in Orinda, which was just next door to St. Mary's College. And she was going to high school at Miramante High School. That was just down the road from St. Mary's College. And I would drive by Miramonte High School all the time and all of these little co EDS would have their thumb out wanting rides in Jorda and I. I've always thought that, you know, I never. I didn't know who Melanie was of course back then, but there she was. She was in California the same time as in St. Mary. And then later on when I had a bookstore in Truckee, she used to come in with her family from skiing and browse around my bookstore. And I always joke that she flirted with me. And then she jokes I flirted with her because I have dimples. Of course, men with dimples are just obvious flirters. And then when I finally met Melanie, I realized that she was a painter of icons. And she painted. She's a beautiful painter. She's a marvelous banger. And you know her, right? Her artist artistic name is Marant Melanie Marchand. And Marchand Dart is her. Her blog site, I mean her website for her paintings. And so she's just terrific. But she painted all these beautiful icon. And so you know, it was like of course we were teachers so we had a lot in common. She. I'm not too sure if she really loved sports that at the first, when we first met her, when I first met her but I think she was reading more meditation and philosophy and the good stuff. And I think I corrupted her with mystery novels and sports. So I don't know if she holds that against me, but she's close to it. She's a. You know, she's not just a romantic figure in my life. She's a pal, she's a friend. And it was. It was a thrill at any age I think when you meet somebody who is so closely associated you emotionally and spiritually. And that's how I always felt with Mel. She. We had that kind of an emotional and spiritual connection as well as all the other romantic things that go on and lucky travel. We had just. It was just. It was made actually I. And I have to say that I have to give credit to my son that in terms of how we met, I would. I came back from visiting Russia my friends in Russia for first time. I'd never been. It was right after I diagnosed with. From myeloma. And that's it all summer in Russia. I came back and felt terribly lonely. I was, you know, I, you know, my wife and I had divorced. My, my first wife and I are divorced. And I thought to myself, God, if only I had some partner, some friend, somebody. And to share this experience I have in Russia and Spain. I was, my daughter in Spain too, at the same time, on that same trip. Trip. And my, my dad said, my son said, dad, you know, why don't you go online? Oh. And I said, oh no, I don't want, that's for, you know, that I'm not going to do that. And so, dad, everybody's doing. Because the young people are doing it then, you know, midlife people are doing it. Everybody's reading online these days. So I, I thought, oh well, hell, I'll give it a shot. And so there was the fate, the fate. There she was, she was the first person I tricked on Yahoo Cleaning service and there she was and she painted icons and she gorgeous and I, I'm not sure if I fell in love with her that particular moment, but on our first date, I can guarantee you I was involved. And, and you know, it wasn't too bad feeling in love. 69, because people associate that kind of romantic experience with 20 year old or maybe possibly 30 year old, but I don't think they associate it with an elderly person such as myself. I remember feeling so grateful that I had that feeling in me. I saw her when we met and we talked. I thought, God, this is just terrific. I'm 69 years old and I'm meeting the love of my life. This is absolutely fabulous.
- [54:26]
B
That's beautiful. Tom. I'm, I'm happy for you. I'm happy for both of you that you, that you found each other. I, you noted, you noted earlier in our, in our talk that you, that you later in life kind of came back to basketball, rediscovered basketball. What, what, how, how big a role is basketball in your life now? What, first of all, what do you think pulled you back and, and how, how into it are you now?
- [54:50]
A
Well, I think I lost track a little bit about, in the game. I think I lost track while I was teaching. I was so involved in teaching when I got my high school jobs and that was a commitment that I was really into. And I have to say that I, I sort of, I found that the game was just a little bit boring. These were the times when there was a lot of cocaine going along in the game and often there weren't some great superstars and so on. So I found myself maybe not watching a Lot of basketball except the playoffs. And then I got multiple myeloma after I retired and my son bought me the recast. So I was isolated in my home in Truckee at that time. I remember watching an awful lot of basketball and it was the first time I had really paid attention to it. So figure I was, you know, for almost 24 years. I kind of just absented myself from the game of basketball. Then all of a sudden I turned on the television and started watching this new modern, high flying, you know, circus type of basketball that's going on. On. I thought to myself, gee whiz, this is, this is freaking great. This is some fribly. This is some fast moving sport and it's. That's wonderful. And so I guess I could say that I was sort of reborn when I was around 60, you know. 60. I guess it was. Yeah. You know, somewhere right after I was diagnosed by a little.
- [56:26]
B
Right.
- [56:26]
A
Went through that process. And, and I love the game. And then I'm, you know, I think there's some problems with the game today. I can't tell you how much I hate the three point shot. No, not the three point corner shot. I love the three point shot. I just hate the three point corner shot. I think it's the biggest sheet in the world. You know, it's a foot and a half shorter than the regular three point shot. And everybody goes, oh, look at that great three point shooter will help. You know, you're a foot and a half in, you know, you're, you're not shooting a real three point shot. So I, I hate it. I think. Saw my blog sometimes I'm always, you know, ticking around with that and you know, and whining about it. But I thought the game is really wonderful. And of course, you know, they, the NBA still have problems. It's a long, long season and it's so many, you know, they're trying with that, that tournament and, and I guess that's doing a little bit of. It's helping a little bit. But it's an awful difficult, it's awful difficult to play 84 games. Yeah. And then, then have a whole stretch of seven game, seven game playoffs. I, you know, and now the play, the end. So it's, it's, it bothers me, but the game itself wants to put the ball up in the air. You know, referee throws the ball off. It's still the most beautiful sport there is in the world.
- [57:51]
B
I'm with you on that, Tom. All right, I'm gonna, I'll get you out of here. With one last question I like to ask all my guests. But let me just say again, for, for my listeners, Tom's book is, is called the Mad Manchurian. From the internment camps of Tokyo to the hardwood courts of the NBA, there's so much fascinating stuff. I could, I, I could talk to you all day about this book, but I got to let you get back to your writing.
- [58:16]
A
Okay, I appreciate that. You get back to your writing too.
- [58:20]
B
Yeah. Tom, my last question for you is what is your all time favorite sports book?
- [58:26]
A
Oh, my gosh, you know, I hate to be real old fashioned. Bang the Drum Slowly is one of my real old time favorites. Great baseball book. Gee whiz, my mind's gone blank there followed.
- [58:43]
B
That's all right.
- [58:44]
A
That's. That's a good one. Hang the Drum Slowly I think is one of my favorites. And there's Tasha. Oh, I just, I. I'm sorry, I've just drawn.
- [58:55]
B
All right, I put you on the spot. It's all right.
- [58:58]
A
There was one, there was one about the Knicks that I love. Gosh darn that. One of the great lines of all time, Mindy Rudolph is, you know, you're a Mick person, right?
- [59:09]
B
Yeah.
- [59:09]
A
Yeah. You're. Yeah. So there's, it's the old garden and Mindy Rudolph, one of the great referees of all time, you know, is there. And you know how everybody's betting in New York. Everybody's a better in New York. So that in the game. And it's. Then he's calling some really crazy fouls and some guy comes out and this is the writer explaining it in his book. And he comes out of the stands and he yells, then they. Who's gardening the newsstand?
- [59:40]
B
That's great. Well, Tom, thank you so much.
- [59:44]
A
I do remember another book, Bill Russell's Red, which was a great book about art.
- [59:50]
B
Okay, great. I'll have to check that one out. Tom, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really, really enjoyed talking to you and I love the book.
- [59:59]
A
Thank you very much, Paul. It's been great talking to you too. Thank you for listening to this episode of the New Books Network. We are an academic podcast network with the mission of public education. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and rate us on your preferred podcast platform. You can browse all of our episodes on our website, newbooksnetwork.com Connect with us on Instagram and BlueSky with the handle ewbooksnetwork and subscribe to our weekly Substack newsletter at newbooksnetwork.substack.com to get episode recommendations straight to your inbox.