Podcast Summary:

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Tori Montrose (Interviewer; sometimes referred to as Sharon)
Guest: Vanessa R. Sasson, Professor of Religious Studies, Marianopolis College
Episode: Vanessa R. Sasson, "The Gathering: A Story of the First Buddhist Women" (Equinox, 2023)
Date: February 1, 2026

Overview of the Episode

This episode centers on Vanessa R. Sasson's book The Gathering: A Story of the First Buddhist Women, a genre-blending narrative that brings to life the early Buddhist women's journey toward ordination. Sasson and Montrose discuss the research, creative process, and contemporary resonances of the book, as well as its uses in and impact on academic and Buddhist communities. The conversation explores themes of female friendship, motherhood, courage, and the power of storytelling as academic method—placing ancient narratives in dialogue with present-day women's experiences.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Vanessa Sasson's Background and Approach (02:32–05:14)

• Academic Journey:
  • Sasson’s doctorate was in comparative religion, comparing early rabbinic, Pali, and Sanskrit texts.
  • She describes herself as a comparativist at heart, despite focusing on Buddhist studies.
  • Her introduction to Buddhism was shaped by an unplanned, life-changing year in Nepal.

"I landed in Nepal and my world was blown open. Everything fascinated me. Everything was different and alive and vibrant and shocking and upsetting. And it was so much emotion all wrapped up into one." — Vanessa Sasson (03:48)

2. On the Genre: “Hagiographical Fiction” & Participatory Scholarship (05:40–10:10)

• Book’s Unique Genre:

  • Sasson’s work is neither pure fiction nor traditional scholarship; she’s termed it “hagiographical fiction”—narrative retellings rooted in academic research yet told as story.

• Motivation:

  • Sasson wanted to experience “being the storyteller”—not standing apart as observer, but entering the stories herself, much like stepping onto a stage after years of analyzing performance.

• Research Transparency:

  • The novels are bracketed by introductions and comprehensive endnotes, laying bare the research and interpretive choices for academic readers.

"Telling the story instead of describing it, being the storyteller instead of being the audience member is what I’ve tried to do… I very much abandoned my academic distance. But it still felt like a profoundly intellectual project." — Vanessa Sasson (06:29)

• Pedagogical Value:
  • This immersive methodology enabled Sasson to notice narrative nuances and character complexities that a purely scholarly eye might overlook.

3. Choosing the Narrative Focus: Protagonists and Creative Decisions (10:37–19:12)

• Continuity from ‘Yashodara’:

  • Sasson’s previous book ended with women standing at the threshold of seeking ordination. She felt “I had no choice” but to continue the story with The Gathering, despite its political and emotional weight among Buddhist women.

• Why Vimala as Protagonist?

  • Sasson chose Vimala due to her audacious, textured presence in the Therīgāthā but relative obscurity in Buddhist imagination—allowing creative freedom without “trespassing” on major canonical figures like Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī or Patachara.

"Vimala had to be a small character in the popular Buddhist imagination or it wouldn’t work… I thought I could play with her and give her space to move around all of this without bothering people’s imagination of what they expect." — Vanessa Sasson (17:36)

• Selection of Companions (Patachara & Bāhīya Kunḍalakesā):
  • Chosen for their strong personal resonance with the author and for their compelling, diverse backgrounds.

4. New Insights from Storytelling (19:59–25:56)

• Narrative Perspective Unlocks Nuance:

  • Writing as fiction surfaced new questions—e.g., how did the women actually manage such a dangerous, unsupported journey after the Buddha’s repeated hesitation/refusal?

• The Fourth Petition:

  • Sasson emphasizes the overlooked audacity of the women petitioning the Buddha a fourth time—contrary to established convention—highlighting their extraordinary courage.

"I think the only way the story makes sense is that the Queen was walking ahead of the pack, because otherwise they were a free for all… Writing the story helped me appreciate the courage and the political surprise of the story that I don’t think I appreciated until I tried to write it." — Vanessa Sasson (23:53)

• Community, Leadership, and Vulnerability:
  • The presence of Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī (the queen) was essential for the women’s safety and cohesiveness.

5. Contemporary Resonances: Ordination, Gatekeepers, and Grassroots Change (25:56–29:13)

• Parallel to Modern Buddhist Ordination Movements:
  • Sasson draws a striking parallel between ancient and modern Buddhist women: both need grassroots driven action, but ultimately require key “gatekeepers” (figures with authority) to open institutional doors—illustrated by recent events in Bhutan where the king played a decisive role in women’s ordination.

"What was true then is still true today, that you need the grassroots, but then at one point, the gatekeepers have to meet you and open the door." — Vanessa Sasson (27:44)

• Sakyadhita Conference:
  • Sasson discusses launching the book at the international Buddhist women’s conference (Sakyadhita), underlining its emotional and historical impact.

6. Themes: Motherhood, Grief, Female Friendship and Solidarity (29:39–35:58)

• Motherhood & Trauma:

  • The Therīgāthā and early literature provide nuanced, varied portraits—‘not just idealization or destruction’—including women losing children, choosing renunciation, or navigating motherhood differently.

• Power of Female Friendship:

  • Sasson notes the communal nature of women’s monastic entry, contrasting men’s often solitary ordination. Drawing on primary sources, she suggests that sisterhood, solidarity, and support were essential and underappreciated.

"You have homeless widows and you have prostitutes and courtesans and queens and princesses, and they’re all eating from the same food… I find that really quite beautiful. And I don’t think I appreciated that until I had to imagine it." — Vanessa Sasson (31:32)

• Not Always Explicit in Texts:
  • The Therīgāthā rarely explicitly presents friendship, but subtle references and interwoven stories reveal deep relational dynamics.

"We miss a lot of things that then you see when you look again." — Vanessa Sasson (35:56)

7. Pedagogical Impact: Storytelling in the Classroom (35:59–41:04)

• Teaching With the Books:

  • Sasson highlights the books’ value for making Buddhist history “come alive” for students, especially those who struggle with formal academic writing.

• Emotional Investment and Nuance:

  • Stories spark engagement and provide space for critical questioning and nuanced thinking—students become invested in debates over the Eight Heavy Rules, for example.

8. Reception Among Buddhist Women and Concerns Over Representation (41:11–47:49)

• Launch at Sakyadhita:
  • Sasson recounts trepidation about cultural appropriation but describes overwhelmingly positive, emotional responses from Buddhist nuns worldwide—who found validation and recognition in the stories.

"They were so happy that I told them the story. For the next five days…the nuns…I became the story lady. And…what moved me the most was…they said, thank you for paying attention to us" — Vanessa Sasson (45:41)

• Representation of Ordinary Experience:
  • Many women resonated with characters whose reasons for ordination were pragmatic or ordinary—not purely spiritual—mirroring real-life motivations.

9. Environmental & Artistic Choices: Trees, Birds, and the Book’s Cover (47:49–51:43)

• Intentional Visual and Textual Imagery:
  • Sasson integrates trees, birds, and forests as active presences—both in homage to Buddhist cosmology and as an environmental statement inspired by Amitav Ghosh’s work on climate storytelling.

"I wanted the Earth to be more of a participant, but it was very hard to do…That was a big part of why the trees and the birds and…forest is such a big part of the story." — Vanessa Sasson (49:17)

• Diversity and Symbolism:
  • Biodiversity on the cover reflects the diversity among the women at the story’s heart.

10. Looking Ahead: Next Projects and Rest (51:43–52:56)

• On Taking a Break:
  • With two new books out in the same year, Sasson is momentarily resting and reflecting, with an as-yet-unwritten book “in her head.”

"I have not been in this position in over 20 years where there’s nothing in the works…maybe I’m taking a break…Rest is generative." — Vanessa Sasson (52:36–52:49)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On storytelling as scholarship:
  “It became a really interesting opportunity to see the literature differently. And I also came to start appreciating the storytellers I was reading…I started imagining Ashvagosha. I never imagined Ashvagosha before…” — Vanessa Sasson (09:35)

• On community and courage:
  “The only way the story makes sense is that the Queen was walking ahead of the pack…otherwise they were a free for all…they were out there without any protection.” — Vanessa Sasson (23:53)

• On the lived experience of women’s Buddhist history:
  “You need the grassroots, but then at one point, the gatekeepers have to meet you and open the door.” — Vanessa Sasson (27:44)

• On the emotional resonance with Buddhist women today:
  “For the next five days…they called me the story lady. And…what moved me the most was…they said, thank you for paying attention to us.” — Vanessa Sasson (45:41)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:32–05:14: Vanessa's academic background & path to Buddhist studies
• 05:40–10:10: “Hagiographical fiction,” participatory storytelling, and book structure
• 10:37–19:12: Choice of protagonists and creative narrative decisions
• 19:59–25:56: New insights, the audacity of early Buddhist women, and narrative surprises
• 25:56–29:13: Contemporary ordination movements, Sakyadhita Conference
• 29:39–35:58: Themes—motherhood, female friendship, trauma, and community
• 35:59–41:04: Pedagogical uses, student engagement, and classroom experience
• 41:11–47:49: Buddhist women’s reception, cultural representation, Sakyadhita reflections
• 47:49–51:43: Imagery, symbolism, and book cover choices
• 51:43–52:56: Future projects and the value of rest

Tone and Style

Warm, reflective, and deeply engaged—both scholarly and personally invested. Sasson’s candor about her methods, uncertainties, and reception by Buddhist women infuses the discussion with authenticity and emotional depth. The conversation balances literary exploration, historical scholarship, and contemporary relevance.