Podcast Summary:
New Books Network – Vartan Matiossian, "The Color of Choice: The Armenians and the Politics of Race in the United States and Germany (1890-1945)" (Brill, 2025)
Host: Ari Barbalat
Guest: Vartan Matiossian
Date: October 6, 2025
Overview
In this insightful episode, Ari Barbalat interviews Dr. Vartan Matiossian on his groundbreaking new book The Color of Choice, which delves into how Armenians were perceived and racialized in the United States and Germany from 1890 to 1945. Through comparative analysis, Matiossian unpacks the shifting and intersecting racial constructs Armenians faced in contexts shaped by white/“Aryan” supremacist thinking, situating Armenians alongside and sometimes conflated with Jews as “problematic” outsiders. The conversation traverses legal battles over racial identity, anti-Armenian stereotypes, Nazi and fascist policies, Armenian responses, and the broader implications for understanding race, discrimination, and migration in the West.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Genesis of the Book and Central Message
- Matiossian’s Background: Born in Uruguay, raised in Argentina, with academic roots in economics and accounting, later drawn to Armenian studies due to heritage and professional curiosity. (02:36)
- Inspiration: Confronting the omnipresence of racial categorization upon immigrating to the US prompted Matiossian to examine how Armenians were classified racially and historically marginalized—especially vis-à-vis US and German frameworks. (05:10)
- Gap in Scholarship: Noted lack of comprehensive historical research on how Armenians have been racialized, especially synthesizing both US and German case studies. (05:10)
"This question of race was so pervasive that... it forced me to rethink, okay, what race I should write [on the forms]... This led me to start studying..."
—Vartan Matiossian (05:10)
2. Primary Themes and the Story Told
- Recurring Discrimination: Armenians faced prejudice not just in their homeland, but in diaspora communities worldwide, from the Ottoman Empire to Western Europe and America. A pattern both persistent and transnational. (08:18)
- Forgotten/Overlooked Histories: Emphasizes that anti-Armenianism ("anti-Armonism") was ideological and systemic, not simply episodic. (10:23)
3. The Concept of Anti-Armenism
- Definition and Pattern: Matiossian proposes “anti-Armenism” as an ideological construct, analogous in some ways to antisemitism—spread through literature, politics, and social policy. (10:23)
- Dehumanizing Stereotypes: Armenians were often grouped with Jews and Greeks as exploiters, money lenders, or ethnic “others” in negative national narratives in British and German contexts. (19:50, 22:33)
"There was a clear pattern of anti-Armonism as an ideological... matter and not just a matter of someone taking a position against Armenians..."
—Vartan Matiossian (10:23)
4. Armenians and Jewishness: Conflation and Stereotype
- Myth of Shared Characteristics: Persistent conflation of Armenians with Jews, based on presumed physical and “spiritual” similarities, led to blurred identities and shared stereotypes, especially in 17th-20th century European discourse. (15:23)
- Impact on Armenian-Jewish Relations: This overlap in perception created complex legacies, which the book explores through historical examples and limitations of available source material. (17:59)
5. National Variations in Anti-Armenianism
- Britain: British policy, especially in the 19th and early 20th centuries, was pro-Turkish, fostering negative stereotypes about Armenians as disloyal or exploitative. (19:50)
- Germany: Anti-Armenian sentiment predated the Nazis, tied to the German-Turkish alliance, and persisted through three different regimes (Second Reich, Weimar, Third Reich). Armenians were depicted as deceitful, “Semitic” outsiders. (22:33, 26:13)
- United States: Stereotypes existed, but less pervasive than Germany; peaked during restrictive immigration periods—especially 1924–1965. (22:33, 57:35)
6. Armenians and Aryanism
- Nazi Perceptions: Despite Indo-European linguistic ties, Nazis and some German intellectuals often classified Armenians as “Semites” based on physical stereotypes, leading to fluctuating legal status. A key bureaucratic intervention (Third Reich Interior Ministry decree, 1935) temporarily certified Armenians as “Aryan,” but this was always precarious. (26:13, 29:03)
- Diversity of Armenian Responses: Within Armenian communities, ideas of race were most often imported; discussions of “Aryan” or “white” status were generally derivative, not originating deep within Armenian thought. (30:36)
7. Fascist Policies and Experiences across Europe
- Italy: Armenian community was small; initial danger from racial laws under Mussolini abated after lobbying led to recognition of Armenians as “Aryan” in 1940. The issue was mainly bureaucratic rather than ideological. (38:56)
- Croatia: Despite almost no Armenian presence, Ustasha racial legislation explicitly classified Armenians as “non-Aryan”—unique among Axis states. Anti-Armenian stereotypes were used in anti-Serbian polemic, even in the absence of real Armenian communities. (43:46)
- Romania: Despite their long-established presence and assimilation, stateless post-genocide Armenian refugees were vulnerable to discrimination due to their “homelessness” and association with commerce; sometimes conflated with Jews and exposed to exclusionary pressures. (48:25)
8. Segregation and Legal Racialization in the US
- Restrictive Housing Covenants: Most severe anti-Armenian discrimination occurred in Fresno, California, where Armenians were barred from purchasing or renting property in white neighborhoods—a practice that was legally challenged only in the late 1940s. (51:22)
- Racial Court Cases: Armenians twice had to legally fight for recognition as “white” to secure citizenship, notably in the Halladjian case (1909, Boston) and United States v. Cartosian (1923–1925, Oregon). Active communal mobilization was vital in the latter. (55:18, 59:58, 64:39)
- Comparative Perspective: While Jews and Armenians both faced restrictive covenants, Armenians’ very whiteness was twice directly contested by the state—a fate they shared with South Asians, Japanese, and others. (55:18)
"Twice... the US government [questioned] their whiteness. And twice, in 1909 and 1924-25, [Armenians] had to go to federal courts..."
—Vartan Matiossian (55:18)
9. Immigration Legislation and Exclusion
- Impact of 1924 Immigration Act: Armenian immigration to the US was virtually halted, redirecting many refugees to South America (Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, Cuba)—including Matiossian’s own ancestors. (57:35)
10. Lessons for Today
- Shared Experiences: Armenians’ experiences were not unique but emblematic of the ways race, law, and exclusion have been entangled in modern Western societies.
- Contemporary Resonance: The book aims to stimulate reflection on the mechanics of racialization, drawing contemporary lessons from this “forgotten” past. (71:39)
"It's good to remember what happened in the past... in order to take some lessons for the present. And this... may resonate in the present."
—Vartan Matiossian (71:39)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On forgotten discrimination:
"Armenians have kind of forgotten... how they were subject to discrimination... wherever they were in the past centuries... a pattern that we see everywhere." (08:18) -
On British and German patterns:
"The Armenians... share the same characteristics of being into money lending and exploiting... because they were the merchant class... the Turks were the good guys. This was the basic model..." (19:50) -
On anti-Armenian “Aryan” discourse:
"Germans knew that Armenians were not blue eyed and with yellow hair... but there was a belief... that Armenians were Semite, and this existed until the end of World War II." (29:03) -
On exclusion in America:
"Restrictive racial covenants... appended to the deeds of housings... stated [buyers would not sell to] any Armenian, any inhabitant of the former Ottoman Empire, sometimes Filipinos... The most important case was in Fresno." (51:22) -
On Armenians and legal whiteness:
"Twice... [Armenians] had to go to federal courts and demonstrate that they belong to the white race. Because that demonstration was capital for... citizenship." (55:18) -
On resonance for today:
"It's good to remember what happened in the past and in order to take some lessons for the present." (71:39)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 02:36 – Matiossian’s biography & scholarly path
- 05:10 – Book’s inspiration and central questions
- 08:18 – Main themes & Armenians as repeated targets of discrimination
- 10:23 – Definition and spread of “anti-Armenism”
- 15:23 – Conflation of Armenians and Jews in European discourse
- 19:50 – 19th/20th-century British anti-Armenianism
- 22:33 – Stereotypes in Germany and US; comparative frequency
- 26:13 – Nazis’ “Semitic” classification of Armenians
- 38:56 – Armenians in Fascist Italy under Mussolini
- 43:46 – Ustasha Croatia: classification of Armenians as “non-Aryan”
- 48:25 – Armenian experiences and vulnerabilities in Romania
- 51:22 – Segregation and housing discrimination in the US
- 55:18 – Legal challenges to “whiteness” and citizenship
- 57:35 – Impact of the 1924 Immigration Act
- 59:58 – United States v. Cartosian (landmark court case)
- 64:39 – Halladjian case (1909)
- 68:45 – Comparison of both landmark legal cases
- 71:39 – Concluding reflections on uniqueness and resonance for present
- 74:29 – Matiossian’s current and future scholarly projects
Conclusion
Vartan Matiossian’s The Color of Choice sheds essential light on how racialized thinking shaped the Armenian experience in Germany and the United States between 1890 and 1945. Through nuanced, comparative research, the podcast highlights the persistence of anti-Armenian stereotypes, the arbitrariness and power of legal definitions of race, and the shared fates of Armenians and other targeted minorities. The conversation resonates as both historical truth-telling and a call to remember—and resist—the legacies of exclusion that shape societies today.