Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Jenna Pittman
Guest: Vera Michlin-Shapir
Book Discussed: Fluid Russia: Between the Global and the National in the Post-Soviet Era (Cornell UP, 2021)
Date: September 12, 2025

Overview

In this episode, host Jenna Pittman interviews author and scholar Vera Michlin-Shapir about her book Fluid Russia: Between the Global and the National in the Post-Soviet Era. The conversation explores the book’s central thesis: rethinking Russian national identity through the lens of globalization, examining how the post-Soviet Russian experience fits into larger global trends of nationalism and backlash against liberal globalization. Michlin-Shapir draws parallels between developments in Russia and broader global political dynamics, presenting Russia not as an isolated case but as “patient zero” in a worldwide turn against certain aspects of globalization.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of the Book and Personal Motivation ([02:25])

• Vera’s background:

  • Personal history spanning Ukraine, Israel, and the UK shapes her nuanced view on identity.
  • Motivation driven by the growing significance of national identity in global and Russian politics.
  • Began project when Russian national identity was a less prominent topic on the world stage.

• Quote:

  "Coming to terms with the fact that identity is a complex issue and we need to speak about what identity means in politics is an important point as well."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [06:25]

2. The Concept of "Fluid Russianness" ([06:47])

• Rejects simple binaries in thinking about Russian identity:

  • Not merely “defective” or “aggressive,” but situated between multiple poles.
  • Emphasizes the everyday lived experience, conflicts, and manipulation of identity.

• Identity is inherently contested and manipulable by political projects.

• The “fluidity” is not unique to Russia but visible in identity politics globally.

• Quote:

  "Identity is a contested and fluid concept in itself... For decades, Russians lived a certain Russian normality with all its conflicts, inherent conflicts and tensions that all of us have... [which] are also a fertile ground for political manipulation."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [08:45-09:26]

3. Post-Soviet Dislocation & Globalization ([10:05])

• The collapse of the Soviet Union is just one part of the story.

• The unique conditions of the 1990s (neoliberal globalization, Western capitalism, political liberalism) deeply impacted Russian identity formation.

• Russia's attempt to anchor itself to Western trends, importing models that did not address underlying identity questions.

• No attention paid (at the time) to the impact globalization was having in reshaping people's identities and anxieties.

• Quote:

  "While the collapse of the empire received enormous amount of attention... the impact of globalization, of these global trends and how they interacted... it was just a blank page, as if that didn't happen. But it's so important..."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [11:55]

4. Russian Citizenship, Migration, and the Politics of Inclusion ([13:49])

• Early attempts at Russian citizenship were liberal, open, and tied to post-Soviet migration.

• Yeltsin-era policies welcomed diverse groups, including non-ethnic Russians.

• In the 2000s, Putin rebranded previous migration as “chaos,” using it to build his legitimacy, echoing right-wing rhetoric in the West.

• Migration (mainly from poorer former Soviet states, especially Central Asia) became a central yet misunderstood issue.

• Efforts to “normalize” migration led to new forms of marginalization rather than real control.

• Quote:

  "When Putin comes to power, one of the things that he says is that, I'm going to normalize this, right? I'm going to gain control over our borders. I'm going to gain control over who comes in... That process only created more illegal ways in which people move into Russia, pushed many people into the margins."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [19:37-20:38]

5. Globalization, Discomfort, and the “Freedom/Security” Dilemma ([23:44])

• Russians, like others exposed to rapid neoliberal globalization, experienced both unprecedented freedom and discomfort with new uncertainties.

• The tension between the desire for freedom and the longing for security is a major driver of political change.

• Putin capitalized on these anxieties by offering order and clear answers.

• Globalization brought about the question of “Who am I?”—many struggle to answer it, and seek leaders who provide clarity.

• Quote:

  "People are given freedoms, but then... feel discomfort with those freedoms... because globalization makes it extremely difficult for them to answer the question, who are you?... Putin said, no problem. Here it is."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [25:33-27:38]

6. Putin as “Patient Zero” and Architect of the Anti-Globalist Turn ([33:35])

• Russia is framed as the test case for the global backlash against liberalism and globalization.

• Putin constructed his legitimacy by promising order, national revival, and protection from external and internal threats, including foreign companies, migrants, and social change.

• Notable policies include the crackdown on LGBTQ rights—starting as an attack on homosexuality as a symbol of Western “chaos.”

• Quote:

  "Putin is the first global leader who comes on an agenda, who builds his legitimacy on the agenda of, 'You've had too much of this freedom, chaos... Let me take care of you. You don't know who you are... Why are all these foreigners here?'... I'm going to put them in their place."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [34:05-35:20]

• LGBTQ rights as symbolically central:

  • In the 1990s homosexuality was legalized, but became a political scapegoat in the 2000s.
  • Putin’s anti-LGBTQ agenda served as a rallying point against Western values and “fluidity.”

• Quote:

  "It was specifically homosexuality that was from the middle 2000s... became a sort of very, very toxic target... that men are not men and women are not women, that the genders are not in place, that the genders are in flux, that they're fluid. And this is something I want to stop because this is too confusing."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [36:13-36:59]

7. Media, Discourse, and Methodology in Understanding Modern Russia ([45:47])

• Politics in late modernity are deeply mediatized; politicians create policies and events for media consumption.

• Russian media played a central role in constructing and conveying identity debates and political projects.

• Examining Russian media discourse reveals how collective anxieties are articulated, manipulated, and legitimized.

• Quote:

  "Our politics are being mediatized... you are constructing certain policies for media consumption... In that sense, again, Russia is not really that different from how things developed in the West... media doesn't just report, but rather also constructs politics and how we understand our daily lives."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [45:47-48:45]

8. Current and Future Research Directions ([50:08])

• Vera has shifted to comparative work, partly due to inability to conduct research in Russia.
• Interested in tracing similar anti-global and identity-driven processes in other societies (UK, US, Israel, Poland).
• Sees contemporary “anti-globalist wave” as a multi-faceted phenomenon, with Russia offering an early case study.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why identity matters:

  "What does it mean to be myself? Or what does it mean to be part of a collective? ... I think that coming to terms with the fact that identity is a complex issue and we need to speak about what identity means in politics is an important point as well."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [06:25]

• On Putin’s political strategy:

  "Let me take care of you. You don't know who you are. You are confused. You're worried about where your, you know, where your income is going to come from... I'm going to put them in their place."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [34:25]

• On the role of Western progressivism:

  "The west is becoming more inclusive and more open since the 1970s and 80s... but then those leaders who come in and try to make a political capital on that... always exaggerate the anxiety. And that's why I call Russia Patient Zero."
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [42:16-43:03]

• On researching Russia as an outside scholar:

  "I no longer can visit Russia... actually the book that followed up Fluid Russia and was published last year was exactly about that. How can you even speak about Russia if you don't have reliable information from Russia or cannot go and look for it yourself?"
  — Vera Michlin-Shapir [50:21]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:25] – Vera’s personal connection to identity and motivation for the book
• [06:47] – Defining “fluid Russianness” and the lack of middle ground in identity discussions
• [10:05] – Post-Soviet dislocation and globalization’s overlooked impact
• [13:49-20:38] – Debates over citizenship, migration, and nationality
• [23:44-27:38] – Globalization, freedom vs. security, and personal/collective anxieties
• [33:35-37:15] – Putin’s anti-globalist turn, LGBTQ scapegoating, and Russia as “patient zero”
• [45:47-49:57] – The role of media discourse and methodology
• [50:08] – Vera’s current and comparative research directions
• [52:24] – Closing remarks and where to find the book

Conclusion

The episode offers a nuanced, richly contextualized exploration of how Russian identity has been redefined in the post-Soviet era—not as a singularly Russian problem but part of a global contest over identity, order, and the fallout from unchecked globalization. Michlin-Shapir’s insights into the interplay between migration, media, and political manipulation are essential for understanding not just Russia but current trends in global politics.