Wesley Brown, "Looking for Frank Wills" (McSweenys, 2026)

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: New Books Network

Episode: Wesley Brown, "Looking for Frank Wills" (McSweenys, 2026)

Host: Holly Gattery | Guest: Wesley Brown

Date: May 11, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode of the New Books Network, host Holly Gattery interviews acclaimed novelist Wesley Brown about his latest novella, Looking for Frank Wills. The conversation delves into Brown's inspiration for revisiting the Watergate scandal through the lens of the largely forgotten security guard, Frank Wills, and illuminates the lives and perspectives of those historically left in the margins. Through an engaging dialogue, Brown and Gattery explore the book's narrative structure, thematic motivations, character development, and its resonances with both history and contemporary society.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis of "Looking for Frank Wills"

• Focus on Marginality:

  • Brown is fascinated by characters who exist on the periphery rather than the center of events.
  • Frank Wills, the security guard who discovered the Watergate break-in, becomes a lens to explore overlooked narratives.
  • Quote:

    "I've always been fascinated by characters that are not in the center of an environment or the world... Frank Wills, who found himself catapulted into sort of the public eye through something that involved just doing his job..." (05:44, Wesley Brown)

• Historical Triggers:

  • The upcoming 250th anniversary of the United States and the 50th anniversary of All the President's Men reignited Brown’s focus on Watergate and the weight of history.
  • He identifies as "a child of the 1960s," and those events shape his outlook and writing.
  • Quote:

    "Since I am a child of the 1960s... I am primarily doomed to be, I guess, subject to history." (08:56, Wesley Brown)

---

2. Blending Fact and Fiction: Brown's Research & Approach

• Creative Liberties:

  • Brown focuses on the imagined interior life of Frank Wills, using minimal biographical detail as a jumping-off point.
  • He prioritizes character-driven storytelling over exhaustive factual detailing.
  • Quote:

    "I take a character like Frank Wills... and begin to imagine myself into the life of someone who's had experiences that I could not know about..." (10:33, Wesley Brown)

• The Limits of Historical Accuracy:

  • Journalistic and biographical sources serve as scaffolding, but invention drives the narrative.
  • Quote:

    "...for me is I take a character like Frank Wills... and then try to recreate, I guess, an interior life for this character." (11:18, Wesley Brown)

---

3. Structure and Perspective: Frank as an Elusive Figure

• Polyphonic Storytelling:

  • The novella's narrative unfolds largely through the perspectives of those around Frank—his barber, a photographer, his mother—rendering Frank somewhat enigmatic.
  • Frank’s own voice emerges directly only at the end, via a letter.
  • Quote:

    "Frank Wills doesn't actually speak for himself until the last portion of the novel where he has written a letter." (14:09, Wesley Brown)

• On Knowing (or Not Knowing) Characters:

  • Brown acknowledges that the unknowability of others—even oneself—is at the heart of fiction and the human experience.
  • Quote:

    "There are parts of all of us that are unknown to others and to ourselves... we spend most of our lives trying to discover who we are." (15:18, Wesley Brown)

---

4. Thematic Resonance: Anonymity, Media, and Parasociality

• Contemporary Reflection:

  • Gattery draws parallels between Wills’ transient fame and the phenomenon of parasocial relationships in today's digital landscape.
  • The novel subtly interrogates the limits of public perception, fame, and lasting recognition.
  • Quote:

    "It's again an interesting reflection on these relationships that people have with people on social media today... you have this idea that you know someone... and you can't. You don't know anybody." (19:27, Holly Gattery)

• Readers’ Interpretations:

  • Brown embraces the potential for readers to see the novel as a mirror, reflecting their own contemporary concerns and anxieties.

---

5. Language, Dialogue, and Characterization

• Reading: The Barber's Philosophy (Live Excerpt: 20:21 – 25:06):

  • Brown reads the opening of his novel, introducing Wayne Beasley—the barber and primary narrator.

  • Layers of metaphor connect the art of barbering to understanding human nature.

  • Notable Passage (Wesley Brown, reading as Wayne Beasley):

    "First off, the comb and brush settle any unruliness in the hair that the customer brings into the shop from all the commotion going on outside. Then the clippers get down to serious business..." (22:00–24:00)

• Style:

  • The prose is described as “conversational, colloquial, snappy and tender,” embodying the lived experience and musicality of Black barbershop culture.

---

6. Character Spotlights

• Kimbrough Meeks:

  • Brown's favorite character to write, Kimbrough is verbose, opinionated, and quick-witted—a verbal gladiator who embodies the wit and self-importance of the shop’s banter.
  • Quote:

    "He's the kind of... repository of all the goings on in the neighborhood... he just, you know, launches into these long monologues in attempt to impress the other customers..." (25:54, Wesley Brown)

• Barbershop Dialogue as Social Combat:

  • Brown discusses the tradition of “talk as combat”—out-talking rivals rather than coming to blows—a reflection of Black oral and communal culture.

• Frank’s Mother:

  • Inspired by the strong women in Brown’s own life, she is a model of tough, direct love, and serves as a counterweight to the barbershop’s verbosity.
  • Quote:

    "I've always been more interested in women characters and women more generally... I think her character is one that I wanted to find out about her. She is tough, she's opinionated..." (33:04, Wesley Brown)

---

7. Value Systems, Historical Context, & Moral Complexity

• Authenticity of Perspective:

  • Rather than over-explaining, Brown allows his 1970s Black male characters’ worldviews to emerge through dialogue and interaction, even when they’re problematic or uncomfortable by today’s standards.
  • Quote:

    "A lot of the points of view that these characters have are horrendous. You know, they're prejudice, even sometimes racist, sexist. But that is the sort of the Freemasonry... of human behavior..." (29:47, Wesley Brown)

• Letting Characters Speak for Themselves:

  • Brown’s process involves relinquishing control, embracing the contradictions and complexity of his fictional creations.

---

8. On Writing Process and Privacy

• On Discussing Works-in-Progress:
  • Brown demurs when asked about current projects, favoring quiet development over public discussion.
  • Quote:

    "If you talk about what you're writing or what you intend to write, you in all likelihood won't write it... So I try to not talk much about what I'm working on because I don't want to know that much about what I'm working on." (37:07, Wesley Brown)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Frank Wills’ Place in History:

  "Without Frank Wills, there is no Watergate. And without Watergate, the veil of secrecy and corruption that came to define the Nixon years... would have remained firmly in place." (03:22, Holly Gattery)

• On Discovery in Fiction:

  "For me, that's what fiction is about. It's a process of discovery... as human beings, we always in the process of discovering ourselves or denying what we would prefer not to know." (15:40, Wesley Brown)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:11] Introduction to Wesley Brown and Book Context (Holly Gattery)
• [05:44] Brown on Watergate, Frank Wills, and Marginalization
• [10:33] Research, Fact vs. Fiction, and Imagination
• [12:33] Narrative Perspective—Constructing Frank as Elusive
• [20:21–25:06] Brown reads from the opening of Looking for Frank Wills
• [25:54] On writing Kimbrough Meeks and the Culture of Shop Talk
• [29:47] Discussing Value Systems and Letting Characters Speak
• [33:04] Origin and Importance of Frank’s Mother
• [37:07] Brown on Not Discussing Unfinished Work

---

Memorable Moments & Audience Engagement

• Gattery’s anecdote about her 14-year-old daughter loving the book and asking about the barber shop characters (25:54)
• The dynamic comparison between verbosity of male characters and the economy of Frank’s mother’s speech (35:36)
• Lively exchanges on dialogue, language, and the real-life resonance of barbershop culture

---

Concluding Remarks

This episode offers an insightful look into how Wesley Brown’s Looking for Frank Wills retrieves overlooked histories, animates communities, and grapples with the complexity of knowing oneself or anyone else. The interplay of historical events, memory, collective identity, and richly drawn dialogue delivers an essential listen for readers and writers alike—underscoring fiction’s ability to uncover, complicate, and reclaim the narratives that shape us all.

---

Transcript

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

I love wearing clothing that's both comfortable and elevated. Outfits I can wear on a walk through the park or in a meeting with a client. Quince has become my go to with fabrics that are incredibly soft, clean and versatile. This spring I refresh my wardrobe with quints. I especially love their Pima cotton tees and bamboo jersey lounge shorts. Surprisingly soft and breathable with a quality level you'd expect to pay a lot more for. If you're looking for new clothes this spring, I highly recommend checking out their Italian swim trunks. I love swimming, but can never find swimwear that feels comfortable and looks good. Quince's swimwear is the best I've ever owned. I can't emphasize enough how affordable Quince is for the quality you get. Check out their incredible deals and offerings, especially if you're looking for clothes that feel good and look great. Whether you're at the office or the beach. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com NewBooks for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com NewBooks for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com NewBooks this episode is brought to

[Holly Gattery]

you by Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus. Elle every year after the Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point and more slow burns, second chances chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime Girl. Winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders that perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping for from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.

[Wesley Brown]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Holly Gattery]

Hello everyone and welcome to nbn. I'm your host Holly Gattery and I am really thrilled to have joining me today Wesley Brown to talk about his phenomenal and fascinating new book looking for Frank Wills. Welcome to the show, Wesley.

[Wesley Brown]

Oh, thank you. It's really glad. I'm really glad that you invited me.

[Holly Gattery]

Oh, I'm excited to talk to you about this book and I'm going to try to keep my fangirling to a minimum because I found it to be such an absorbing, compelling and just, I don't know, soul expanding read Perspective Shattering all that great stuff for our listeners. A little bit about the book it's 1972, Tricky Dick is in office, James Brown is on the radio, and Wayne Beasley reluctantly presides over the comings and goings of his barbers and patrons at Wayne's Clip and Trim in Augusta, S.C. when one of Wayne's former customers, an unassuming small town son, is designated 4F unfit to serve in Vietnam, he seeks refuge in becoming the next best thing, a security guard for a downtown D.C. hotel. It is there, on a hot summer's night, that Wayne's wayward reachment interrupts a break in that will disrupt the course of a nation's history and his own. Wesley Brown's Wesley Brown, author of Tragic Magic, Darktown, Strutters and Blue and a novella, once again remaps the tributaries that run into the stream of our American subconscious by dipping into the headwaters of pivotal memories and histories to tell the tale from the perspective of the real folks whose stories were too long submerged. Without Frank Wills, there is no Watergate. And without Watergate, the veil of secrecy and corruption that came to define the Nixon years, warping the very fabric of political discourse from that moment on, would have remained firmly in place. Wesley Brown's reimagining of the life of Frank Wills reconciles the greatest heist of all our place in American history. What was stolen from Wills as he was briefly thrust into the spotlight while excluded from the annals of history is reclaimed as Brown gives voice and breath to the people who loved him and the barber who did his best to guide him. Wesley Brown is an acclaimed novelist, playwright and teacher. He worked with the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party in 1965 and became a member of the Black Panther Party in 1968. In 1972 he was sentenced to three years in prison for refusing induction into the armed services and spent 18 months in Lewisburg Federal Penitentiary for 26 years. Brown was a much revered professor at Rutgers University, where he inspired hundreds of students. He currently teaches literature and at Barr College at Simon's Rock and lives in New York. Oh, I mean, I want to dive right into this because it is such a. I mean I, I'm Canadian, so I, I actually didn't know anything or very little. Of course I knew about Watergate. Like I I'd heard about it, but it was kind of like knowing about Other, like, other elements of history. It's something you know about in the collective subconscious. But I actually didn't know any details, Wesley, so I would love for you to tell me about where this book started for you. What was the flash of inspiration or insight or that moment of feeling that made you think, I'm going to write about this?

[Wesley Brown]

Well, I've always been fascinated by characters that are not in the center of an environment or the world. And either they have tried to move closer to where all of the action is and failed, or they've been pushed out of sort of the rough and tumble of the world and are at the perimeter and they were isolated. And so those are the kind of characters I've always been interested in. Frank Wills, who found himself catapulted into sort of the public eye through something that involved just doing his job, which is making a call where he discovered at this hotel, the Watergate Hotel, that there was something amiss because of the way the door to the area where the headquarters of the National Democratic Party, their officers were. And so apparently he called the police. There were burglars, or at least ostensibly they were charged for burglary, were taken, were arrested, and subsequently it was discovered that these were men who were working for the government and were really interested in trying to disrupt the Democratic Party in the election of 1972. And it became known that they were connected to the Richard Nixon administration. So that's the sort of the germ of where the story began. And I knew about this character, this figure, Frank Wills, prior to beginning to write this novel. And I'm not quite sure why I became fixated on him again. But I think because we're at this point of the 250th anniversary of our republic's founding, you know, 1976 is 50 years since, you know, was the. I guess the 150. No, 200th anniversary of the country's founding. So I think I was sort of caught up in these moments where there's this anticipation of a celebration of the country's history. And somehow I got reconnected to the Watergate conspiracy and 1976 being around the time that Richard M. Nixon resigned after it was discovered that he was at the bottom of this effort to try to disrupt the Democratic Party as far as the election of 1972. And so also, there was this film, all the President's Men, which came out in 1976. So apparently I just sort of gravitated toward that because we also. It's been 50 years since that film was released. So I always seem to be interested in these points of history. And since I am a child of the 1960s, I have had, I guess, that period of time during the civil rights movement, the anti Vietnam War protests, I am primarily doomed to be, I guess, subject to history, events that have occurred. So that informs a great deal of my writing.

[Holly Gattery]

Thank you so much for that answer. I was talking with someone recently about what constitutes historical fiction. And apparently it's anything that's 50 years or older, which. Which stings a bit for me in my mid-40s, and I was reading this, and I wasn't thinking of it as historical fiction. That's. That's where this question is. Next question is going that it seems that Watergate is still a term, a word, an idea that we think about often. But as I mentioned, other than it being just this idea in the collective subconscious as an example of corruption, I actually didn't know much about it. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the research process that went into creating this book. Because, you know, we have it based in fact. But I would only assume that you would have to take some creative liberties.

[Wesley Brown]

Well, you know, obviously, when I've dealt with actual occurrences that have occurred, that is, you know, I do have to take that into account. But for me, I'm more interested in these actual figures as characters, not as real people, because I have no way of knowing psychologically what their makeup is. So for me is I take a character like Frank Wills, who obviously I didn't know, and begin to imagine myself into the life of someone who's had experiences that I could not know about, or at least very minimally, and then try to recreate, I guess, an interior life for this character. Of course, I have to be interested in this character. So for me, I'm not so interested in the blow by blow account of the, you know, the details of someone's life who actually lived. But how I can reimagine their lives through invention. And this story about Frank Wills, who would became caught up in this event and who ultimately sort of drifted into obscurity. That's the kind of figure that I've always been interested in. So as far as research, I mean, I did, you know, there were journalistic accounts of what happened. There's a very short biography of Frank Wills, but for me, that is only a point of departure. I guess at some point after I've read, you know, pretty much I have the outlines of what the particular character's life are, then I just Sort of forget that and begin to see how I can imagine the story, which for me is more important.

[Holly Gattery]

I love that answer. And I have a perfect follow up question, as if we'd rehearsed this, which we haven't to listeners. And that is about how Frank is obviously a central character in the story, but we hear about Frank from everybody but Frank. So as Barber, we get insights about him through a photographer, to an extent, his mother. But he is this elusive, almost shadow figure. And I felt myself so drawn to him, but I felt like I never truly understood him fully. And then I started thinking, well, I don't know if Frank ever fully understood himself. And I was wondering if you could talk about the decision to structure the book that way.

[Wesley Brown]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure how that happened. I think for me, I discover the thrust of what I'm writing as I write, so I don't make these decisions beforehand. And it seems that this character of the barber, it was something that just came up to me as I started to write. And of course, a barber is someone. He owns this shop and he becomes the kind of tributary of what is going on within this establishment. And that this is a kind of world unto itself. And that intrigued me once I sort of came upon that really inadvertently. And so you're right that other characters, particularly the narrator, Wayne Beasley, speak, and Frank Wills doesn't actually speak for himself until the last portion of the novel where he has written a letter. And so I don't really have an answer to why I decided to take that approach as far as the way the novel unfolds. And for me, that's usually. That's a sign that I have. Not that I have done what I'm supposed to do, that I have focused more on my imagination rather than, you know, the. The process of how do I. How did I write this? How did I. How did I make these decisions? Because the decisions for me as far as this story and what I. What I chose to. How I chose to write it were decisions that I made as I wrote it. And so I know there are people who say, well, how can you deal with dramatically the life of someone that you not only didn't know, but that you have made up? And so I guess my response would be that there are parts of all of us that are unknown to others and to ourselves. We spend most of our lives trying to discover who we are. And so, and memory and what we think we know about another person is. Is very something to be skeptical of, that it isn't necessarily reliable that because someone knows someone, even if they're in the same family, they're siblings, that they are able to completely describe or explain who this person is. And for me, that's what fiction is about. It's a process of discovery. And you know, as human beings, we always in the process of discovering ourselves or denying what we would prefer not to know. So again, I sort of try to steer course away from trying to explain to myself or know too much about what I'm trying to write or the process that I've taken to get to

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

where I end up it's springtime, which means that Princeton University Press is having a its annual 50% off spring sale. From May 4 through June 9, you can get 50% off nearly every single print, ebook and audiobook from Princeton University Press. Just go to press Princeton Edu to get 50% off incredible books like Disneyland and the Rise of Automation and Beyond Belief, How Evidence Shows what really Works. There are so many fantastic books that you can get an incredible deal on. Go to press Princeton Edu and use the code SPRING50. That's S P R I N G50 Press Princeton Edu this sale only lasts for a month, so go and get some books hey NBN listeners. We're running our 2026 New Books Network Audience Survey, and we'd love just a few minutes of your time. NBN has been bringing you in depth conversations with authors and scholars for over 15 years. We haven't done a comprehensive audience survey since 2022, and a lot has changed since then. It's time to hear from you again. Here's why we're asking. We want to understand who's listening, what subjects and podcasts you love most, and where you'd like to see us grow. Your responses help us tell NBN's story to the publishers, libraries, libraries, and institutions we partner with. When we can show that our listeners are serious readers, lifelong learners, and heavy library users, it opens doors to new partnerships, better resources, and ultimately a stronger NBN for everyone. And one more thing. If you leave your email address at the end of the survey, you'll be entered to win a $100 gift card to bookshop.org, a chance to stock up on books while supporting independent bookstores at the same time. The survey takes just five minutes. Your answers are contacted confidential and your email will never be shared. Head to newbooksnetwork.com to take the survey today. We really appreciate your support. Now go take the survey.

[Holly Gattery]

I appreciate that answer. I think it was Robert Persig In Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance said something to the effect of reality is that flash before intellectual intellectualization and that. That is something I think about often. And I was also thinking while I was reading your book, just because I'm caught up in some parasocial world of new media like digital media and social media, about your book being an interesting commentary through the zeitgeist of today of parasocial relationships, of people's response to Frank, the general public. He's thrust into the spotlight, he's used up and tossed aside and people, as you said, people think they knew him, but nobody really knew him. And it's again an interesting reflection on these relationships that people have with people on social media today where you have this idea that you know someone, you have this idea you can judge who this person is and make comments about their lives and, and you can't. You don't know anybody. But it was interesting to. For me to think about that and to think about our behavior and treatment of each other and our tenuous grasp on humanity, but through an era and a story that is not linked to the incredible, the incredible drain of the digital world today. So I really appreciated your novel for that understanding that you were likely not intending for any of that to happen. But books are mirrors and this is what I was seeing reflected back at me. My next question for you is actually a request and I was going to ask if you have your book around you, would you read to us from it?

[Wesley Brown]

I guess I could read from the beginning. The opening section before Frankie was all over the news involving Watergate. I used to cut his hair when he was just scrawny and nappy headed. I watched him grow up in my shop from the time his legs weren't long enough for his feet to touch the footrest of the barber's chair. We were both born in North Augusta, South Carolina, just across the Savannah river from Georgia. He was an only child. I was the middle child of 10. Only eight survived infancy. I believe my life came at the cost of my mother's who died at the age of 48 of rheumatic fever. She made my father promise that since she gave her children life, it was his responsibility to make sure none of us didn't spit up our lives. The fate of too many Negroes during the Depression. As my father's namesake, it was assumed that I was the one he expected to follow him into his tonsorial enterprise. He called it Wayne's Clip and Trim, located next door to a pool hall that provided a steady stream of customers, whether they were heady from getting the best of lesser players or needed some grooming after being taken to the cleaners on a pool table. My father schooled me in his belief that becoming a barber was a calling that required an intimacy between one's hands and what he called the cutlery of the vocation. He'd spread out the instruments that were a barber's stock in trade as if they were silverware. Initially, he didn't go into the techniques in the use of the comb, brush, clippers, scissors and straight razor. He was more interested in the philosophy behind each tool. And this is his father, or as he reimagines his father, giving him instructions. First off, the comb and brush settle any unruliness in the hair that the customer brings into the shop from all the commotion going on outside. Then the clippers get down to serious business. But don't let the clippers give up too much information. Allow them to lay in the cut so as to keep the element of surprise in play. Because no matter what dudes say, they are really whatever dudes say, they really don't know what they really want until they see it. And by the time you get down to the clippers, what is to come is still too early to tell. Once the clippers. Now, once the clippers mow the lawn, so to speak, you change to another set of teeth, the trimmers which, unlike most people, don't beat around the bush. But cut to the chase, especially close around the ears, the area where too many people hear but don't listen. Now, when a dude is all lathered up for a shave, the anxiety of having a razor against his face and throat persuades him to tell you things he wouldn't ordinarily say to stay on your good side. Without him knowing it, you're getting a pretty fair idea of what it takes to get under his skin. The comb and scissors come into come in at the finish, tidying up any unevenness you may have missed. And once you hand him a mirror to show off your handiwork, you sometimes notice a change in attitude. That he's that he's full of himself now that he's that he's all that he's all that he's all hands. This is a moment for when he starts talking a whole lot of mess and is all lungs. Finally, you pull the cloth from around him and before sending him on his way, you use. You use the duster brush off his and whisk off any hair left on his clothes. He swaggers out the door like a brand new penny and doesn't realize you peeped his pedigree and know even if he doesn't, that whatever ever happens to him, the rest of the day won't get any better than this. The point of all I'm telling you is that you gotta be a student of human behavior to learn how it is to be the best barber you can be. So that's Wayne Beasley, the narrator who opens the novel. And that sort of, that, I guess, exposition I just read is him recalling the instruction that his father gave him about becoming an expert or competent barber.

[Holly Gattery]

I think it's also a really wonderful example of the conversational, colloquial, snappy and tender elements of the story, which I think really embody just the feeling I get when I'm reading this. It's just sitting down and listening to someone talk. It's not highfalutin. It's really like you're in there in the barbershop with this really amusing and smart and bewildering cast of characters. And this question's coming at you from my 14 year old daughter. She read your book, loved it, and wants to know who your favorite character in the barbershop was to write.

[Wesley Brown]

Well, I would guess Kimbrough Meeks. He's the kind of, you know, repository of all of the goings on in the neighborhood and particularly in the shop. And he has a very high opinion of himself and he just, you know, launches into these long monologues in attempt to impress the other customers of how knowledgeable he is, which gets on their bad side because he assumes that he knows that he's better than they are. So he becomes a character for me that is really interesting to try to create because of his verbal acuity and that I've always been interested in how characters speak. And as you point out, I'm more interested in sort of a kind of plain spoken and idiomatic way of trying to get into the way characters express themselves. And because I listened a lot when I was a child, I wasn't a talker. So. And in black communities, talking is a very sort of. In some ways it's a kind of combat, one upsmanship. And rather than get into physical confrontation, you can best someone by demolishing them through your verbal skills. So that's something I've always been interested in characters and Kimbrough Meeks is a perfect example of that.

[Holly Gattery]

He was a fun character to listen to, sometimes a bit infuriating, but I would say in the best possible way and you're so right about the conversation. It was so sharp, so snappy. I was just bewildered at the comebacks some of these people had, because I can't think that quickly. And, you know, if. If I'm playing checkers, they're playing chess on the moon when it comes to conversational skills. And I was. I really enjoyed it. I thought it just added so much momentum in life to the story. But, I mean, I felt like the story already had that because, as you said, it's a very plain spoken account, which. Which I definitely loved. My next question is actually about Kimbrough and about some of the opinions that were expressed, because I found some of them unsettling in a very good way. When I. I don't know, when I say something's unsettling, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a. A pejorative statement. It just means that it's up, it's upset something about my. The way I see the world. And I'd say a lot of us need our worlds upset it. That's not a bad thing. But Kimber would say things about, like sitting down and being quiet and not saying anything when something bad happened. And I found myself having these responses that are very much based in who I am and my world and the era in which we live. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about bringing the value systems and the perspective that somebody would have had, a black man would have had in that era to the book without over explaining it, because it's not over explained. You don't contextualize it because that's not something these characters would have done. But it's clear what's going on. But again, it's not. You haven't sat down and written a critical essay on why somebody thinks this way.

[Wesley Brown]

Mm. I'm always interested in characters who. Whose views are so far removed from my own because they become more interesting and I have to give up my control over their behavior because they say things or think things that I. That infuriates me. But that's why they're interesting. And so I take a step back and allow them to speak for themselves. A lot of the points of view that these characters have are horrendous. You know, they're prejudice, even sometimes racist, sexist. But that is the sort of the Freemasonry, so to speak, of human behavior that even people that we know intimately say things or behave in ways that we would not countenance. But, you know, because they're family or because we know them in a particular way. We are often unsettled by this kind of behavior. And for a fiction writer such as myself, those are precisely the characters that I'm interested in because Beyhol views that are in the world, they aren't necessarily mine. But, you know, we are very complicated human beings and we often say things where there can be three or four different meanings of what we say. And it's interesting to me that someone can say something and then their behavior contradicts whatever they've just said. Or it could be the other way around. And so I think that becomes for me something that I'm very interested in in terms of creating characters. I don't want them to. I don't want to control them. And I think once I give up control and allow them to speak for themselves, which is not anything mystical, it's just as I'm writing, I sense, I feel that I'm not expressing myself necessarily, or I'm expressing myself through these characters and they are speaking for themselves.

[Holly Gattery]

Well, there's definitely a lot of different people expressing a lot of different opinions, which I. I appreciated. And it. It added a kind of symphonic effect to this, this story. One of my final questions is about Frank's mom, because from the moment she arrives in the book and is this kind of enigma of a character who slowly becomes a little bit clearer as the story. Well, a lot clearer as the story goes on and as she gets older and Frank gets older, I. I was drawn to her. I was drawn to her toughness. I was drawn to her uncompromising dedication to her son. And I would love to know where she came from for you, where this character came from.

[Wesley Brown]

Well, you know, she is probably the embodiment of many of the women or, you know, girls that I knew growing up. Also aunts who. Who spoke in ways that fascinated me. I guess the thing I was most. I was closer to aunts than uncles, I think, because they talked to me, not at me. And the uncles that I had, the men seemed more aloof or wanted to command my attention through what they had to say, not rather than engaging me. So I've always been more interested in women characters and women more generally. And I think her character is one that I wanted to find out about her. She is tough, she's opinionated. And since, you know, women are. I'm not a woman. And so I'm interested in characters that. Who are not me, who are a different gender. And so I'm always been interested in female characters. And it was very important to me to have her in. In this novella. I don't think I could write anything where there weren't any women in the story. And so I think that goes directly to growing up with a sister who was six years older, her friends, aunts and uncles, particularly aunts, who embraced me in ways that the men on both sides of my family didn't. They were more aloof and were more interested in letting me know what they thought and less about what I. What I was thinking. So I think that's probably the reason that I. I was interested in her. And I'm always probably more interested in women characters because I find women, I guess, in many ways more interesting than. Than men and because they're not men.

[Holly Gattery]

Yeah. One thing that I enjoyed about her from the moment, again, she walked into the book, was where you have all these male characters who are waxing philosophic, including the barber. One of the first things she does is shut down the barber, who she thinks might be approaching or being kind to her son with an aim of getting to her. And in very directly and on no certain terms, she shuts that down. And her directness is such an interesting counterweight to the verbosity of all the men who are talking, talking, talking with, sometimes without really saying much of anything or, you know, saying in many words what could have been said in few. And she uses very few words to get her point across. And I. I felt like that economy of. Of language and that directness was really. It was. It was an interesting, as I said, an interesting counterweight to. To the men. And I appreciated it. And I also thought that if I met this woman out in the world, I. I don't think I'd want to know her opinion of me. Like, I'd. I'd be a little bit intimidated. But I appreciated her a lot as a character. My final question for you is about what you are working on now, if you'd like to share it or if maybe you're just taking a break.

[Wesley Brown]

I am working on something, but this is one of those questions I'd rather not get into. My feeling is that if you talk about what you're writing or what you intend to write, you in all likelihood won't write it, or you will spend a lot of time sort of waxing eloquent about something you're working on, which to me leads one to the. You know, to the. To the point of not writing about it at all, or that you've talked it to death and then there's no point in writing it at all. So I try to not talk much about what I'm working on because I don't want to know that much about what I'm working on.

[Holly Gattery]

I love that answer. I always say that when I have something in the early stages that I won't talk about, but it's like letting the air out of a balloon. The party's over. I don't. I don't want to go to the party anymore. I'm not going to do it. So I absolutely understand that response and I appreciate you sharing it with us. Well, thank you so much for joining me today to talk about your really phenomenal book. I cannot wait to read whatever you work on next. I've actually ordered at my local library a few of your backlisted titles. Everyone. We're talking to Wesley Brown about his fascinating novella, Looking for Frank Wills, which is available. I got it through McSweeney's. It's available wherever books are bought or borrowed, though. Thank you so much for joining me today, Wesley.

[Wesley Brown]

Well, thank you so much for inviting me. I really appreciate our conversation.

[Holly Gattery]

I enjoyed it so much. Thank you.