Podcast Summary:

New Books Network — William Cooper, "The Trial of Donald H. Rumsfeld" (October 29, 2025)

Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Deidre Tyler, features author William Cooper discussing his new novel, "The Trial of Donald H. Rumsfeld." The book is an alternative history told as historical fiction, imagining a scenario where Donald Rumsfeld rises to the presidency, leads the U.S. into a war with Iran, and faces trial at the International Criminal Court. The conversation explores Cooper’s inspiration, creative process, and the broader implications of fictionalizing recent history.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Inspiration for the Novel

• 9/11 as a Catalyst
  • Cooper recalls the impact of World Trade Center attacks during his early adulthood, which spurred his political awareness and interest in Rumsfeld as a public figure.
    • Quote:

      "September 11, 2001 really caused me to get interested in politics and international affairs in a way that I hadn't before...Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense, he was giving press conferences consistently. Watching him in that environment really was fascinating to me." (02:13)

Blending Fact and Fiction

• Approach to Rumsfeld’s Biography
  • The first third of the novel closely traces Rumsfeld’s factual biography, before venturing into alternative history.
  • Cooper focuses on both public record and imagined events to construct a nuanced portrait.
    • Quote:

      "The first third or so of the book charts his background in an accurate way. It's an alternative history...But there's lots of facts in there that did happen." (02:55)

• Why Historical Fiction?
  • Fiction provided creative freedom—unlike nonfiction, it allowed Cooper to explore character and scenarios unrestricted by scholarly constraints.
    • Quote:

      "With non fiction, you're restrained in some ways...in fiction you can just run with your creativity...a novel would be a good vehicle for making those points." (03:38)

Characterization of Rumsfeld

• Personality and Ambition
  • Rumsfeld is depicted as extraordinarily ambitious and productive, based on Cooper’s research and impressions.
    • Quote:

      "He would work 18 hour days without breaking a sweat. And so I wanted to capture that part of Rumsfeld in the book." (04:59)

• Family and Personal Relationships
  • Cooper consulted biographical material to portray Rumsfeld’s family life.

Creative Process

• Construction of the Novel
  • The narrative is driven by a mysterious narrator whose identity is not revealed until the book's end.
    • Quote:

      "The narrator isn't just someone who tells Rumsfeld's story, but...plays a pivotal role in the novel, in the fictional side of the story." (08:12)

• Ease of Fusing Fact and Fiction
  • Cooper found integrating real events and fictional possibilities easier than expected, relying on historical anchors for plausibility.
    • Quote:

      "I just took the raw elements...and then I just ran with it, and I just kind of said, what would be fun and interesting? Let's make him president." (09:02)

Central Themes & Arguments

• Humanizing Political Figures
  • A recurring motif is that power-wielders remain deeply human—subject to the same flaws, overconfidence, and errors as anyone else.
    • Quote:

      "People who like you...lionize you, people who dislike you...twist you into...a villain. And people forget...that these people are human beings with strengths and weaknesses, fallibilities, quirks, just like everyone else." (06:46, 20:41)

• Danger of Overconfidence in Power
  • Cooper reflects on Rumsfeld as a case study in hubris that can accompany authority.
    • Quote:

      "Human beings have a quirk where sometimes we're really smart, really rational, but then we mess up our own self assessments. We're overconfident. We think we can do more than we can do. And that's a dangerous trait in somebody with a lot of power." (20:41)

Research and Historical Context

• The Iraq War
  • Cooper’s personal academic engagement and research informed his depiction of the conflict’s impact.
    • Quote:

      "I became interested in politics right around September 11, 2001...and the Iraq war was 2003. So I was in undergrad in college during the time...it was a very formative period." (10:30)

• International Criminal Court
  • Rumsfeld’s fictional trial at the ICC enables examination of the institution’s complexities and limitations.
    • Quote:

      "It's very hard to have objectivity with the arbiter of the dispute...the tribunals can be run by people who are rivals...it can be a very, very difficult and complicated area." (12:14)

Supporting and Historical Characters

• Presidents and Politicians
  • Gerald Ford: Rumsfeld’s mentor; his rise is recounted precisely.
  • John McCain: Cast as a principled opponent to Rumsfeld's war policies.
    • Quote:

      "McCain would be a good character to be in opposition to Rumsfeld...a big opponent of that war. He thinks it's an abuse of presidential power." (17:11)

  • Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Barack Obama: All make appearances according to their historical or imagined interactions with Rumsfeld.
  • William Barr: Included for his repeated influence as Attorney General; also serves as a source of dark humor in the novel.

Narrative Structure

• Chronology and Real Events
  • Chapters are organized by specific dates to allow readers to follow the mix of fact and invention.
• Use of Public and Private Sources
  • Dialogue and events are based on a blend of public documents and imagined internal conversations.

Reflections & What’s Next

• Omissions and Future Work
  • Cooper considered adding more about Rumsfeld’s youth.
  • Teased possible future novels: “The Trial of Donald J. Trump” or “The Trial of Elon R. Musk.”
    • Quote:

      "I like the idea of another book would be the Trial of Donald J. Trump, or alternatively, the Trial of Elon R. Musk." (22:00)

Notable Quotes

• "When you're a famous politician, you're often a lightning rod...people forget...that these people are human beings with strengths and weaknesses, fallibilities, quirks, just like everyone else."
  — William Cooper (06:46)

• "Fiction...allowed me to take Rumsfeld—who I see as a consequential and controversial figure—and put him into a story that explores both his character and bigger national questions."
  — William Cooper (05:49)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 02:13 – Inspiration from 9/11 and Rumsfeld’s public influence
• 02:55 – Accurate biographical foundation vs. alternative history
• 03:38 – Choosing fiction over nonfiction
• 04:59 – Portraying Rumsfeld’s ambition and personality
• 06:46 – Main argument: humanizing the powerful
• 08:12 – The mysterious narrator device
• 09:02 – Weaving together reality and fiction
• 10:30 – Research into the Iraq war
• 12:14 – Depiction and critique of the International Criminal Court
• 17:11 – McCain as Rumsfeld’s fictional adversary
• 20:41 – Reflections on power, hubris, and leadership
• 22:00 – Future projects teased

Memorable Moments

• The host laughs about William Barr’s recurring role as Attorney General, paralleling Rumsfeld’s multiple stints as Secretary of Defense. (19:54)
• William Cooper’s enjoyment of the genre shines through as he describes his process and the creative energy fiction affords. (05:49)
• The closing exchange as Cooper hints at future books that would similarly place real, controversial historical figures in dramatic fictional trials. (22:00)

In summary:
William Cooper’s interview offers a thoughtful glimpse into the attractions and challenges of writing alternative history about powerful, real figures. His central theme—reminding readers of the humanity within the halls of power—anchors a discussion rich in political insight, literary method, and imaginative speculation. The episode is engaging for anyone interested in history, politics, or the creative boundary between fact and fiction.