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- [00:01]
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- [00:32]
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- [01:03]
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- [01:20]
William Cooper
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [01:23]
Liberty Mutual Announcer
Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:38]
Deidre Tyler
Hello everyone, and welcome to the New Book Podcast. I'm Deidre Tyler, host. Today we'll be talking with William Cooper, author of the Trial of Donald H. Runsfield, A Novel. How are you doing today?
- [01:55]
William Cooper
Doing great, Deirdre. Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:59]
Deidre Tyler
Thank you. I was wondering if you could tell us what was the single most compelling event or idea that inspired you to write a fictional account of Runsville.
- [02:13]
William Cooper
Well, if I had to pick one, I would say September 11, because I was a young adult and September 11, 2001 really caused me to get interested in politics and international affairs in a way that I hadn't before. And at the time Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense, he was giving press conferences consistently. And so watching him in that environment really was fascinating to me and was a big part of why I wrote the book.
- [02:48]
Deidre Tyler
Tell us a little about his background. That really was true inside of the book.
- [02:56]
William Cooper
So the first third or so of the book charts his background in an accurate way. It's an alternative history. So it's a novel, it's fiction, but there's lots of facts in there that did happen. And the first third of the book charts his rise. He came into Congress in his 20s. He was the youngest Secretary of Defense of all time. He was the oldest Secretary of Defense of all time. In between those two polls, he was a very successful CEO. And the first third of the book is really an opportunity to get to know Rumsfeld and learn his history.
- [03:33]
Deidre Tyler
Why did you decide to use historical fiction as the way to tell the story?
- [03:39]
William Cooper
I thought it would be a really fascinating way to tell the story, a really entertaining way to talk about Rumsfeld. And with non fiction, you're restrained in some ways. What you say has to be accurate and supported with citations and research. Whereas in fiction you can just run with your creativity. And I thought that there were some points that I really wanted to make about Rumsfeld and his time in government that are very applicable today to today, in 2025 and going forward. And that a novel would be a good vehicle for making those points.
- [04:21]
Deidre Tyler
Now, looking at his relationship with his family, that was an interesting part of the book. How did you come about with that information?
- [04:32]
William Cooper
I read a lot. I knew a lot about Rumsfeld and I read a lot about him for the book as well. So I just learned a lot about him. And then I took what I had learned about him, the research I'd done, and I used that to form the character in the novel. Including with respect to his family.
- [04:51]
Deidre Tyler
Yes. Now tell us more about how you, you developed that personality because he was a go getter.
- [05:00]
William Cooper
He sure was a go getter. Unbelievably ambitious and productive person. People that knew Rumsfeld would talk about his absolutely prodigious ability to get things done and be productive. He would work 18 hour days without breaking a sweat. And so I wanted to capture that, I wanted to capture that part of Rumsfeld in the book. And the goal was really to have the true Rumsfeld come through as I saw him and learned about him, and then weave that person into a historical fiction narrative.
- [05:42]
Deidre Tyler
Now tell us about the creative freedom. How did you organize everything in the book?
- [05:49]
William Cooper
Yeah, the great thing about fiction is that you just pick up the pen and go. And for me it's really enjoyable because you just run with, with a story and you're not encumbered at all by being accurate with the historical record or anything like that. And so what I did with the story was I said, okay, look, we've got this really consequential controversial figure in American history and how can I inject him into a fictional story that really brings out both his character and also important insights into the country and the world? And through alternative history, where he becomes president and there's a war with Iran and he goes on trial. I had a platform for pursuing that goal.
- [06:39]
Deidre Tyler
Now, if there was one central argument or critique, what would that be?
- [06:47]
William Cooper
The biggest single point I wanted to make with the book was that people in positions of power are just as human as everyone else. When you're a famous politician, you're often a lightning rod. People who like you and support you, lionize you, people who dislike you, have hostility towards you, twist you into kind of a cartoon character, into a villain. And people forget and don't process at all that these people are human beings with strengths and weaknesses, fallibilities, quirks, just like everyone else. The person standing at the podium or giving the speech is just as human as we are. Yet they have this incredible power, especially in international relations. And I wanted to tell a story. First of all. It was entertaining and people would want to read, but to bring through that part of that lesson, through the story, that these people that we treat like cartoon characters or superheroes or villains are every bit as human as we are.
- [08:02]
Deidre Tyler
Yes. Now, the novel is told through the eyes of a mysterious narrator. Give the audience a little bit about that.
- [08:13]
William Cooper
Yeah. I thought it would be fun to tell his story through the eyes of a narrator that you don't learn who it is until very close to the end of the book. And the narrator isn't just someone who tells Rumsfeld's story, but it's someone who plays a key role in the true events of Rumsfeld's time in government and then also plays a pivotal role in the novel, in the fictional side of the story. And to me, that was just a fun way to go about writing the book. I thought it would be a nice device to get attention from readers and to have them excited about the book they were reading.
- [08:57]
Deidre Tyler
What was your biggest challenge in weaving together real and historical?
- [09:02]
William Cooper
I found that surprisingly easy. I thought it would be harder, but what I did was I just took the raw elements of Rumsfeld that I knew were true. The various jobs he had, the people he knew and interacted with. And then I just ran with it, and I just kind of said, what would be fun and interesting? Let's make him president. Let's have a war that never happened, and a big constitutional crisis that flows from that, and let's put him on trial. What a dramatic way to look at a historical figure. So it was a little daunting at first, but it actually surprised me that it was easier to do than I thought. It would because you're still ultimately telling a story without the encumbrances of non fiction. I love not writing nonfiction and it's a great genre, but it does restrain you in a good way. You want to be. You don't want a non fiction book that's unrestrained and the author's just writing whatever they want. But it was actually surprisingly easy to me to, to make that happen in that intersection between fact and fiction. Was, Wasn't. Wasn't hard for me to, to. To. To occupy that terrain.
- [10:23]
Deidre Tyler
What type of research did you do about the Iraq war that was an interesting part of your. Your book?
- [10:31]
William Cooper
Well, I knew enormous amount about it because like I said, I became interested in politics right around September 11, 2001 in a big way. And the Iraq war was 2003. So I was in undergrad in college during the time I was reading books about it, following it really closely. And it was a very formative period for me in understanding the world and politics and international relationships. So I knew a lot. I revisited some things. I read a fair amount about it, but I was coming from a base of lots of knowledge just having been really interested in it at the time.
- [11:10]
Deidre Tyler
The detective said missing kids usually come home. What happens when they don't?
- [11:16]
Liberty Mutual Announcer
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- [11:20]
Abercrombie Kids Announcer
We discovered bodies.
- [11:22]
Liberty Mutual Announcer
By the looks of it, they're younger men.
- [11:24]
William Cooper
The things he did to those kids.
- [11:27]
Deidre Tyler
He's sick.
- [11:28]
William Cooper
The system failed these families.
- [11:30]
Liberty Mutual Announcer
Devil in disguise. John Wayne Gacy Streaming now only on Peacock. Do you know how many there are? Up to you to find out.
- [11:41]
Abercrombie Kids Announcer
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- [12:08]
Deidre Tyler
Was there anything you learned about the International Criminal Court to put into this book?
- [12:15]
William Cooper
Yeah. So Rumsfeld goes on trial at the International Criminal Court court. And it's a really, really interesting subject area that court because the aim in theory is to have this body that can bring justice to people who commit crimes in the world. But the problem in international affairs. But the problem is the. It's very hard to have objectivity with the arbiter of the dispute. So in. In a civil case in the US a jury will decide often decide an outcome and that's members from the community. In international law, the tribunals can be run by people who are rivals political and international rivals of the defendants. And so it can be, you know, very controversial and a lot harder to find justice, especially when you don't have, you know, if a country, a country agrees ahead of time to submit themselves to the jurisdiction of an international court, that's one thing. But when the court is asserting jurisdiction without any consent, it can be a very, very difficult and complicated area. And I thought that that was. I think that's a really interesting dynamic and something I wanted to have in the book.
- [13:42]
Deidre Tyler
Now, you also brought in some characters, President Ford. You also talked about the Pentagon. Tell us all about those interactions.
- [13:54]
William Cooper
Yeah. So Rumsfeld comes in to government in his 20s. In Congress, late 20s, he befriends Jerry Ford, who's a leading Republican on the Hill, in the House of Representatives. And then Romswell goes and works for Nixon in some lower level cabinet secretary positions, but lower level, not the big ticket departments. And then when Ford steps into the presidency after Nixon resigns, he calls his old friend Rumsfeld to help him run the transition and then become chief of staff. And then after Rumsfeld's chief of staff for a while, working with Cheney, his deputy, Rumsfeld goes to the Pentagon, the Secretary of Defense Cheney's promoted to be chief of staff. All of this is in the novel. And so you see rumsfeld in the 70s as secretary of Defense, and then later he comes back to the Pentagon under George W. Bush, and things have changed a lot. It's a very different experience for him that second time around.
- [14:58]
Deidre Tyler
Yes. Now, you also used dates to tell the fictional story. How did that work out? What was the end result of using the dates?
- [15:11]
William Cooper
Yeah, I wanted the book to flow in a sequential way. There's a lot of huge historical events in the book that did happen, a lot of fictional historical events. And so just having dates with, associated with most of the chapters felt like a good coherent way for the reader to follow along with what was happening.
- [15:32]
Deidre Tyler
Now you focus more on public statements and documents in your book, or did you just imagine internal people?
- [15:42]
William Cooper
It's a mix. It's a mix. There's a lot of statements in the book that were made publicly. There's a speech by Dick Cheney in the lead up to the Iraq war where I quote him directly. There's a speech from Colin Powell at the un his famous speech at the UN before the Iraq war where I quote him directly. So it was a fun mix of grabbing things from the historical record and putting them in and then also creating my own.
- [16:09]
Deidre Tyler
Now, if you were to include Anything else, What would it be in this book?
- [16:15]
William Cooper
It's a good question. I think I could have included maybe I really try to. To explain who Rumsfeld was and capture him as a person. And I might have included and thought about including more about his childhood, you know, maybe a chapter or two on him as a young person, as a child or a teenager. So I thought about that. There's some. Some in the book, some stories in the book about him when he was younger than, you know, before he went to Congress, for example. So I could have expanded a little there.
- [16:56]
Deidre Tyler
Now, looking at his relationship and historical information about McCain, what did you find out there that was surprising or tell us some imagination story about that relationship?
- [17:11]
William Cooper
Yeah, John McCain was a fiery senator for a long time from Arizona. I found him to be a really interesting person. He and Rumsfeld were contemporaries at times and interacted. And I just thought McCain would be a good character to be in opposition to Rumsfeld. So in the book, Rumsfeld's pushing for his president of the United States, and the United States ends up invading Iran. And John McCain is a big opponent of that war. He thinks it's an abuse of presidential power. And I really just thought he'd be a great character to have involved.
- [17:51]
Deidre Tyler
Now, what about President Nixon? I thought that was interesting.
- [17:56]
William Cooper
Well, of course, Nixon was a very consequential figure in American history, and the Watergate scandal was a huge, important episode for the country. And lots of. I think learning from Watergate is applicable to today's politics. So I wanted to delve into that. And there's a scene in the book where Rumsfeld's interacting with Nixon about Watergate. And I thought that would be a fun, dynamic scene. Rumsfeld, actually. And this happened in real life before the Watergate scandal really broke and got big in the public domain. Rumsfeld left Washington, left the Nixon administration in Washington and went to NATO to become NATO ambassador. So we had very good timing for getting out of Washington to avoid any additional scrap from that controversy.
- [18:51]
Deidre Tyler
President Reagan, how did he fit into the story?
- [18:55]
William Cooper
He was a bit player. There's not a lot of Reagan in here that would have been an interesting person to include, but I didn't. Didn't put much. But Rumsfeld in real life was Reagan's presidential envoy to the Middle east, and he met with Saddam Hussein. And there's a chapter on the book that details his meeting with Saddam.
- [19:16]
Deidre Tyler
And the last person out that we're going to look at, Obama.
- [19:21]
William Cooper
Obama, again, not a major player in the book. In the book, Rumsfeld becomes President of the United States, and then in 2008, Rumsfeld's the incumbent running against Obama and Obama. So Obama and Rumsfeld run against each other in the presidential campaign. And I'll leave to readers to find out what happened.
- [19:46]
Deidre Tyler
Attorney Barr, you mentioned him in the book, and that was funny. Tell us some of the stories about including him.
- [19:54]
William Cooper
Yeah. William Barr has been a really big figure in American government in the last number of years. He was Trump's Attorney general and very influential during that time. I thought he'd be a fun, controversial figure to have in the book. So he ends up he was the Attorney General for George Herbert Walker Bush, George W's father. He was his attorney general. And then he came back to be Trump's many years later, similar to what Rumsfeld did at Secretary of defense, coming back years later in the same role. And he ends up being Rumsfeld's Attorney General in the book.
- [20:33]
Deidre Tyler
Well, if there was any message through this novel, what would that message be to the reader?
- [20:42]
William Cooper
I think the main message is that, again, the people in power, in our system have enormous power in certain areas, but they're just as human as all of us. And it's important to remember that they're textured, complicated, multifaceted human beings. And one part of that, whether you like the politician or don't like the politician, is to remember that a lot of times they can be very smart people, very accomplished people, but when they're dealing with questions that relate to themselves, their judgment can collapse. Human beings have a quirk where sometimes we're really smart, really rational, but then we mess up our own self assessments. We're overconfident. We think we can do more than we can do. And that's a dangerous trait in somebody with a lot of power. So one of the things that we should look for in our leaders is somebody who's able to be rational. It doesn't make it all about themselves. And without naming names, I think that that's a really relevant concern in today's politics.
- [21:54]
Deidre Tyler
Well, I've taken up enough of your time. Can you tell us the next project you're working on?
- [22:00]
William Cooper
My next book in this genre that I'm thinking about writing, where I really enjoyed it and really had fun with it. So I like the idea of another book would be the Trial of Donald J. Trump, or alternatively, the Trial of Elon R. Musk, where important historical figure goes on trial and a big story surrounds the trial.
- [22:26]
Deidre Tyler
Well, we'll be looking forward to all of your projects. And again, thank you for being on the podcast. And we've been talking with William Cooper, the author of the Trial of Donald H. Runsfield, a novel. Thank you.
- [22:42]
William Cooper
Thank you so much. Always appreciate you having me on.