Podcast Summary: Wu Jianren, "New Story of the Stone: An Early Chinese Science Fiction Novel"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Nicholas Gordon
Guest: Liz Evans Weber (translator, scholar, Professor at the University of Rochester)
Date: September 11, 2025

Overview

This episode delves into Wu Jianren’s New Story of the Stone—a 1905 novel that blends social critique, literary homage, and imaginative futurism, now available in a new English translation by Liz Evans Weber. The conversation explores Wu Jianren’s literary background, his political and social contexts, his motivations for reviving the beloved character Jia Baoyu, and the novel’s remarkable vision of a scientifically advanced, culturally self-confident China. The discussion also touches on the book's political stance, its place in the broader history of Chinese science fiction, and Liz Weber’s experience as translator and scholar.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Wu Jianren? [02:56]

• Prolific Late-Qing Author: Wu Jianren was one of the most prolific fiction writers of the late Qing Dynasty, known especially for works of social criticism.
• Variety & Style: Began in journalism and tabloids, infusing his fiction with a witty, cynical, and observant style.
• Part of the "Four Great Novels of Critique": Canonized for his critical portrayals of society, e.g., Strange Events I Witnessed Over 20 Years.
• Flexibility: Even in genres like romance, Wu embeds social commentary and moral reflection.

“He has a really interesting eye for kind of gossipy, salacious details. He also has a really kind of witty but also cynical voice... He’s a keen observer of the things that go on around him.”
— Liz Weber [02:56]

2. China’s Political Context & Intellectual Milieu [05:24]

• Dynastic Decline: Qing China suffered internal turmoil, overpopulation, insufficient food supply, and corruption.
• Foreign Pressure: The Opium Wars and loss to Japan deepened a crisis of humiliation and spurred calls for reform.
• Reformists vs. Revolutionaries: The late 19th-century saw debates between gradualist reformers (constitutional monarchy) and radical revolutionaries (republic).
• Role of Fiction: Influenced by reformer Liang Qichao, writers like Wu saw fiction as a means of social education and nation-building.

“Fiction is the only tool powerful enough to educate our people and convince them they are, in fact, a nation.”
— Liz Weber on Liang Qichao’s influence [11:24]

3. The Novel as "Literary Fan Fiction": Using Jia Baoyu [12:10]

• Recasting a Beloved Figure: Wu brings Jia Baoyu from Dream of the Red Chamber to his present, transforming the original’s gentle, romantic dreamer into a pragmatic, political agent.
• Original Baoyu: Child of privilege in a powerful family; central to a web of innocence, love, and metaphysical meditation on life’s vanity.
• Wu’s Baoyu: Neither romantic nor religiously detached—he’s focused on societal betterment, politics, and indigenous innovation.

“He’s not romantic. He doesn’t really particularly care about women or anything particularly feminine... Wu Jianren, in taking Bao Yu and kind of recrafting him, is essentially rejecting both sets of previous baggage.”
— Liz Weber [18:27]

4. Structure: Dual Worlds & Their Contrast [22:05]

• Isekai Structure: Like modern “portal” stories, the novel transports Baoyu from Qing China into a utopian “Realm of Civilization.”
• Social Critique via Contrast: The mundane corruption and foreign dominance of real-world China are starkly opposed to the advanced, self-sufficient, and confident civilization of Wu’s imagination.
• Role of the Outsider: Baoyu, as a visitor from the past, points out China’s fall and what has been lost or could have been.

“He spends all of his time in Qing China totally disappointed and, and full of rage, often about the things that he encounters.”
— Liz Weber [22:59]

5. Critique of Modernity and Foreign Influence [26:54]

• Consumerism & Technology: Scenes involving Western commodities, like chiming watches, satirize the hollow pursuit of gadgets for profit over utility.
• Boxer Rebellion as Farce: Wu lampoons both the credulity of anti-foreign mobs and opportunists like Baoyu's cousin Xue Pan.
• Critical Distance: The cousins—critical Baoyu vs. credulous Xue Pan—embody Wu’s own skepticism of both Westernization and self-serving Chinese.

“What Baoyu is trying to say is Western style capitalism that innovates for the sake of generating profit, when an object is not necessarily actually that useful, has kind of got its claws into the Chinese market.”
— Liz Weber [27:53]

“Wu Jiangyuan is pretty unsparing in his criticism of the Boxers. ...Again, between the two cousins, we get a sense for Wu’s position here, right? This is absurd, right? Like, why would anybody believe in this?”
— Liz Weber [27:53]

6. The Utopian "Realm of Civilization" [36:39]

• Innovations Rooted in Chinese Knowledge: The fantasy China excels because it builds technology and medicine from indigenous, not imported, epistemologies.
• Spectacle with a Point: Visionary advances (brain lenses, bone-marrow viewers) are described as outgrowths of native science and classics.
• Cultural Self-Confidence: The society is utopian because it never abandoned its own epistemologies or ceded ground to foreign models.

“We have this high tech utopia that has achieved this utopia specifically by insisting upon its own native epistemologies... based on or fleshed out from some native either technology or knowledge system.”
— Liz Weber [37:36]

7. Conservatism, Progressivism, and Political Thought [41:31]

• Complex Political Stance: Wu is conservative in many respects—favoring moral discipline, hierarchical order, enlightened authoritarianism—yet progressive on some questions (e.g., ending foot-binding).
• Utopia’s Premise: Gender freedoms exist, but only because moral perfection has been achieved.
• Enlightened Authoritarianism vs. Republic: Wu ultimately values a benevolent, Confucian-style monarch but acknowledges constitutional solutions might be necessary when rulers are unfit.

“Wu is very much against republics. He thinks they are chaotic, he thinks they are inefficient. And really, the idea that you should just have a perfect monarch feels very like Mengzi, like Mengzi, Confucian philosopher...”
— Liz Weber [42:21]

8. A Place in Chinese Science Fiction History [46:22]

• Not the First, But Part of a Movement: Wu’s book is an early, not inaugural, example of Chinese science fiction—reflecting a broader turn to sci-fi in China’s 1900s as a vehicle for political and social critique.
• No Direct Line to Modern Sci-Fi: The period was full of experimental, futuristic novels; Wu’s is notable but not a solitary predecessor.

“I would say it’s part of a moment. I would not necessarily try to draw a direct line between this novel and the future of Chinese sci-fi.”
— Liz Weber [46:54]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fan Fiction:
  “This book is fan fiction. I mean, and I don’t mean that in a pejorative sense, but he’s using... his own, some would say, sequel to Dream of the Red Chamber.”
  — Nicholas Gordon [12:10]

• On Wu’s Literary Project:
  “Wu Jianren, in taking Bao Yu and kind of recrafting him, is essentially rejecting both sets of previous baggage or values that the original Bao Yu had. Either the religious kind of escapist version or the romantic kind of self indulgent version. Wu Jianren is effectively saying, like neither of those are things to be emulated. What China needs is someone who is effectively a political agent, someone who is not just interested in, but willing to work toward a stronger China.”
  — Liz Weber [18:27]

• On Satire and Critique:
  “He spends all of his time in Qing China totally disappointed and, and full of rage, often about the things that he encounters.”
  — Liz Weber [22:59]

• On Wu’s Utopian Vision:
  “We could have done this without sacrificing our own intellectual histories.”
  — Liz Weber [37:36]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction to Wu Jianren and his literary background: [02:56]
• China’s political context and the function of fiction: [05:24]
• Plot of Dream of the Red Chamber and use of Baoyu: [12:53]
• Why Baoyu is reimagined/recast: [18:27]
• Structure: the use of isekai, portal fantasy device: [22:05]
• Critique of late Qing society and satire of Westernization: [26:54]
• Satire of Boxer Rebellion: [27:53]
• Transition to utopian “Realm of Civilization”: [36:39]
• Technological and epistemological self-confidence: [37:36]
• Political conservatism and “enlightened authoritarianism”: [41:31]
• Place in Chinese SF history & legacy: [46:22]
• Conclusion and about the translation: [48:57]

About the Guest & Final Notes

• About Liz Weber:
  Professor at University of Rochester, noted for her translation work and research on late Qing literature. Working next on Flower in a Sea of Resentment with NEA fellowship support.

• How to find the book:
  New Story of the Stone is available from Columbia University Press and other booksellers; also offered as an ebook.

This episode offers a vibrant introduction to Wu Jianren’s New Story of the Stone, bringing to life the tensions, hopes, and frustrations of turn-of-the-century China and the enduring power of fiction to imagine alternatives. A must-listen for anyone interested in East Asian literature, science fiction, or cultural history.