Podcast Summary: Uneasy Allies: Sino-American Relations at the Grassroots, 1937–1949

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Charles Coteo
Guests: Zach Fredman (Duke Kunshan University), Judd Kinzley (University of Wisconsin, Madison)
Air Date: September 16, 2025
Book Discussed: Uneasy Allies: Sino-American Relations at the Grassroots, 1937–1949 (Cambridge UP, 2024)

Overview

This episode features a deep dive into the edited volume Uneasy Allies, as hosts Charles Coteo interviews co-editors and historians Zach Fredman and Judd Kinzley. The discussion centers on the grassroots, everyday experiences and relationships that shaped US-China relations during the Second World War and the Chinese Civil War (1937–1949). The guests highlight the importance of looking beyond high-level diplomacy to explore the networks and actors—from cryptographers and journalists to students and women—who played crucial roles in forging, complicating, and challenging the alliance between the US and China.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Purpose and Genesis of the Book

[02:24 – 03:51]

• The book originated from academic workshops where the editors noticed innovative research on US-China relations utilizing Chinese-language sources.
• Judd Kinzley emphasized the lack of scholarship that employed Chinese sources for this era, motivating the collection:

  “There was a lack of people using Chinese sources in many cases for US–China relations. … For us, that was something that was an exciting opportunity.” (03:19 – 03:51)

2. Defining 'Grassroots' and 'Networks'

[03:58 – 07:17]

• The focus is on “actors who were not at the top” of decision-making hierarchies, such as rank-and-file soldiers, interpreters, hydrologists, and commodity producers.
• The editors aimed to spotlight the largest-ever direct engagement between Americans and Chinese, which has often been reduced in history to a few elite personalities.
• Many influential figures were “non-state actors” whose roles were later subsumed or regulated by the state after the war.

“The idea was to focus on different actors … that are not sort of the typical cast of characters that we tend to look at.” — Judd Kinzley (05:04)

3. Intelligence and the Enigma of Herbert Yardley

[07:17 – 09:57]

• Yardley, a notable cryptographer, was hired by the Nationalist government after achieving fame (and notoriety) in the US.
• The Nationalists sought Yardley's expertise to counter Japanese signals intelligence.
• US authorities were reluctant to share intelligence with China, fearing Communist and Japanese infiltration and holding racialized suspicions toward Chinese officials.

“From the beginning, the Allies never really took Chiang into their confidence.” — Zach Fredman (09:25)

• US preferred limited and indirect engagement, often via “semi-state” or independent actors like Yardley.

4. British and American Rivalry in Southern China

[11:28 – 12:48]

• The US held a skeptical view of the British role in China; FDR blamed colonialism for the war’s origins and opposed a postwar British empire in the region.
• American and British organizations (and even American agencies among themselves) often worked in parallel, rarely cooperating and frequently duplicating efforts.

“I think you could even make that argument about the various American intelligence agencies ... during the war.” — Zach Fredman (12:37)

• Notably, there were up to 14 different US intelligence agencies with overlapping missions in China.

5. Gong Peng and Public Diplomacy

[13:13 – 15:32]

• Gong Peng, a Chinese Communist Party figure, worked in Chongqing as a PR expert, building deep relationships with American journalists and scholars.
• Her approachable style enabled effective CCP influence campaigns among key American opinion leaders, impacting US public perceptions of wartime China.

“She ends up having a really significant amount of influence over many of these [American] figures ... having very fond memories of Gong Peng, despite ... she is a Chinese Communist Party agent.” — Judd Kinzley (13:49)

6. The China Institute in America & Cultural Diplomacy

[16:19 – 18:52]

• The China Institute supported scholarly exchange and Chinese students in the US, funded partly by Boxer Indemnity scholarships.
• Facing wartime funding shortages, it failed to secure Rockefeller Foundation support (which shied away from entanglements with the Nationalist government), but did receive funds from Henry Luce, a media mogul sympathetic to the Nationalists.

“The China Institute was seen to be much more politically engaged ... the Rockefeller Institute was less interested in getting involved in those thorny kind of politics … but Luce is much more clearly engaged ... and so is ... willing to get his hands dirty.” — Judd Kinzley (17:37)

7. US Military Misconduct and Civil Society Reactions

[18:52 – 22:36]

• After WWII, US troops in North China became increasingly unpopular, particularly among students, due to violence, jurisdictional impunity, and perceptions of racism.
• During wartime, a common enemy obscured these tensions, which later fueled Communist propaganda and protests.
• Economic benefits from the US presence created supporters in local societies, but university students, initially more open to Americans, were radicalized by negative experiences and Communist infiltration.

“Students, I think, initially were a group that was more sympathetic to the American military presence ... A lot of these students and former students have a bad experience ... They feel like they're treated as second-class citizens by the Americans.” — Zach Fredman (20:53)

• Kinzley observes that the narrative of universal anti-American hostility was largely constructed by effective CCP propaganda, though debates about the US presence in civil society were genuine during the immediate postwar period.

8. Hayden Boatner: An Overlooked Figure

[23:45 – 24:42]

• Boatner, a long-serving military officer in China, was largely sidelined in favor of elite-centric histories focused on figures like Stilwell but offers a window into broader US-China relations.

9. “Jeep Girls” and Women’s Agency

[24:42 – 27:17]

• The historian Chunmei Du’s chapter examines the so-called “jeep girls,” young Chinese women who associated with US servicemen.
• The authors affirm the chapter’s success in restoring agency and voices to these women, who have often been subject to derogatory, male-dominated narratives.

“Chunmei did a really good job going through these sources to bring out these kind of female voices that usually aren't part of the narrative.” — Zach Fredman (25:14)

• The derogatory label appeared around late 1944–early 1945, at a time of economic crisis, and was linked to anti-American, anti-female sentiments.

10. Aftermath: People-to-People Ties Post-1949

[27:17 – 29:08]

• With the PRC’s rise, almost all Americans depart China; grassroots US–China engagement sharply diminished.
• The Communist regime attempted limited personal outreach (such as children’s propaganda letters) but with little of the personal network activity of the wartime years.

11. Comparing Historiographical Tone: Michael Hunt’s Cynicism vs. Uneasy Allies

[29:08 – 30:51]

• Charles Coteo notes the absence of a cynical tone in Uneasy Allies compared to Michael Hunt’s The Making of a Special Relationship.
• Kinzley attributes this to the difference in eras and context—Hunt was writing amid post-Vietnam skepticism of US foreign policy.

12. Key Takeaways for Listeners and Readers

[30:53 – 32:53]

• Kinzley urges historians to focus beyond state actors, embracing semi-state and non-state actors to fully apprehend US-China relations.
• Fredman stresses the importance of engaging Chinese-language sources, noting that bestselling China books in English often ignore them:

  “Chances are, they're written by people that aren't engaging at all with Chinese language sources. So I think that's another important lesson of the book.” (32:36)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The story about this period for so long was this really small cast of characters ... and of course, it was a lot more than just soldiers.” — Zach Fredman ([05:55])
• “The famous kind of story of US China relations is the conflict between Chiang Kai Shek and Joseph Stilwell ... we wanted to take the perspective down a level.” — Judd Kinzley ([03:58])
• “There are efforts by the US Government to try to ensure that things don't get too deep ... and often that entails working with men like Yardley who are not directly … employed by the US Government.” — Judd Kinzley ([10:00])
• “Students ... play this role in modern Chinese history from May 4 onward as kind of conscience of the nation.” — Zach Fredman ([20:53])
• “The power of the piece is ... she tries to find ways to express that agency, to show what these women were like, how they're making these choices.” — Judd Kinzley ([24:53])

Suggested Listening Timeline

• Introduction & Book Origins – 01:36–03:51
• Why 'Grassroots' and 'Networks'? – 03:51–07:17
• Herbert Yardley & Intelligence – 07:17–09:57
• US vs. British in Southern China – 11:28–12:48
• Gong Peng’s Story – 13:13–15:32
• China Institute & Funding – 16:19–18:52
• American Troops and Local Reactions – 18:52–22:36
• Hayden Boatner’s Marginalization – 23:45–24:42
• “Jeep Girls” & Agency – 24:42–27:17
• Post-1949 People-to-People Ties – 27:17–29:08
• Historiographical Tone – 29:08–30:51
• Final Takeaway – 30:53–32:53

Conclusion

Uneasy Allies offers rich, granular perspectives on the complexities of wartime US-China relations by excavating overlooked individuals and networks beneath the state level. In this interview, Fredman and Kinzley demonstrate the dynamic, multivalent, and sometimes conflicted ways ordinary people shaped international history. The episode is a valuable listen for those interested in foreign relations, grassroots history, and the social underpinnings of geopolitics.