Ziggy Hanaor, "Life (As We Know It)" (Cicada Books, 2025)

Summary

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New Books Network — Detailed Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network — Children’s Literature Channel
Host: Mel Rosenberg
Guest: Ziggy Hanaor (author & publisher, Cicada Books)
Feature: Life (As We Know It) (Cicada Books, 2025)
Date: November 8, 2025

This episode features an in-depth and lively conversation with Ziggy Hanaor, discussing her new nonfiction children’s book Life (As We Know It). The episode delves into the book’s unique lyrical take on evolution, the challenges and philosophy of independent publishing, the interplay of illustration and text, and Ziggy’s background as both a writer and a publisher known for taking creative risks in children’s literature.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. About the Book: "Life (As We Know It)"

(03:28–05:22, 05:39–08:15)

• Lyrical Nonfiction:
  Ziggy describes the book as “a story of evolution from the very beginning until today,” written in a poetic style that captures “the incredible miracle of life” and illustrated by Cristóbal Schmal, lending vibrancy and visual metaphor to the text.

  “It's basically a story of evolution from the very beginning until today. But it's written in quite a lyrical style, so it sort of captures the poetry, which is the kind of like incredible miracle of life.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 03:29

• Readings — Opening & Ending:
  Ziggy reads the evocative opening, which frames the birth of the universe as a “singular point, 10 zillion times smaller than a grain of sand.”
  The host encourages Ziggy to read the book’s bold ending, which moves through human impact on the planet, acknowledges uncertainty and cosmic mystery, and pointedly avoids simplistic reassurance for young readers.

  “Next, the changes will keep happening. The atmosphere will warm and glaciers will melt and sea levels will rise, but the Earth will continue spinning... Life on the planet will change too. Some life will disappear, but then more life will appear.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor (reading), 07:00

• Philosophical and Honest Tone:
  The host praises the book for tackling big themes—death, renewal, climate change—with candor rare in books for ages 6–12, calling Ziggy’s approach “gutsy” and “philosophical” (08:15).

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2. On Courage and Independent Publishing

(08:28–11:06)

• Taking Risks:
  Ziggy credits her ability to take creative risks to her position as both publisher and owner of Cicada Books:

  “It's my company, so nobody's going to stop me. And that's an amazing position of privilege. I take it really seriously... I have a responsibility to take risks both on illustration and content.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 08:51–09:19

• Balancing Creativity and Business:
  While creative choices are hers, financial realities can’t be ignored: “Sales are obviously really important… but ultimately the buck stops with me.”
  — 09:19–10:15

• Commitment to Nonconformity:
  Host Mel notes that most small publishers “try and go for the convergence,” while Ziggy’s books “challenge children to be young scientists” and think existentially (10:15).

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3. Ziggy’s Background and Journey

(11:16–14:28)

• Personal History:
  Raised by an academic father and librarian mother, Ziggy grew up without a TV, reading voraciously and cultivating a passion for visual art, though she ended up studying drama. She lived in Israel, England, and the US, and began her career in script editing before moving into art/design publishing.

• Founding Cicada Books:
  Ziggy left traditional publishing to create her own company while raising her children, focusing on books at her own pace and vision. Her shift to children’s illustration coincided with Instagram’s transformative effect on the global illustration community.

  “I was doing one or two books a year and then it sort of gradually picked up and I really wanted to work with illustrators... the world of illustration is something that I feel like I instinctively connect to.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 12:36–13:07

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4. Publisher-Led by Illustration — The Creative Process

(14:28–18:17)

• Illustrator-First Publishing:
  Ziggy describes Cicada’s rare model where illustrators are often the creative starting point. She seeks artists whose work inspires her, then collaboratively develops book projects around their interests and strengths.

  “I find illustrators whose work I really love... I set up a Zoom... What’s the book that you want to do?”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 14:48–15:16

• Nonfiction and Fiction Projects:
  About half of Cicada’s 8–10 annual books are nonfiction (“bread and butter”), often developed with input from writers and consultants, always in dialogue with illustrators.

• Author-Editorial Role:
  Ziggy is a deeply involved editor for both illustration and narrative—even in projects where illustrators don’t write the text.

• Example:
  Cites successful book Grand Hotel Feeling by Lidia Brankovic and Sven Volker, noting its translation into 26 languages (17:14).

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5. The Creation of "Life (As We Know It)"

(18:20–22:40)

• Genesis of the Book:
  Began as a more traditional nonfiction project (Stones and Bones) about fossils, which inspired Ziggy’s fascination with the story of evolution. She found herself telling the story as a concise, poetic narrative at a party and, “as I was telling it, I was like, this is a story... I went home that night and I wrote it.” (21:33)

• Collaboration with Illustrator:
  Unsure if the concept was “too ambitious,” Ziggy shared it with Cristóbal Schmal, who was immediately enthusiastic.

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6. Approach to Difficult Themes and Honesty with Children

(22:40–24:31)

• Rejecting Simplification and False Comfort:
  Ziggy states firmly that she resists “books that preach” or give “false reassurance,” especially around environmental issues.

  “What I don’t want to say is it’s all going to be fine.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 23:37

  “I have no interest in lying to children because children know when they’re being lied to... It’s really important to give children what facts we have, which is: this is happening... The world is bigger than us. We are just... nothing.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 23:37–24:31

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7. Other Writings and Projects: "Alte Zachen" & More

(25:28–33:28)

• Alte Zachen

  • Written for PJ Library, the book follows a crabby old Jewish lady (“Bubby”) and her grandson in New York. It explores intergenerational perspectives, heritage, and memory.
  • Initially rejected by PJ Library, it eventually found life with illustrator Ben Phillips, gaining critical acclaim.

  “She’s a really cantankerous, grumpy old lady... basically the city is not as she remembers it... her grandson... accepts the city in a kind of very wide-eyed kind of way.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 27:41–28:27

• Connection to Memory & Identity:
  The book is an amalgam of lived experience, family stories, and memory, similar to many of Ziggy and Mel’s works, often exposing subconscious autobiographical threads.

• Graphic Novels and New Projects:

  • Continuing focus on illustration-led, often experimental books, including teen graphic novels (Everything Amplified).

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8. Being a Small Boutique Publisher

(33:56–36:19)

• Selective and Hands-On:
  Cicada Books publishes just eight titles per year, led by Ziggy and one other staff member. The company prioritizes hand-drawn illustration, collaborative development, and rarely takes writer submissions unless an idea is truly outstanding. “Your chances are less than one in a zillion... however, every grain of sand came from somewhere interesting.” (35:10)

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9. Advice for Authors and Illustrators

(36:22–38:39)

• On Writing:
  Ziggy offers little universal advice, noting that process is deeply personal; her own is rapid and intuitive, while others are slower and methodical.

• On Illustration:
  Acknowledging the challenges and low odds of breaking in, Ziggy says,

  “Illustration is like music... If you want to make music, you’re going to make music… even if you’re not making money from it.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 37:48

  Many illustrators maintain other day jobs but keep their artistic drive alive; Ziggy’s admiration for them is heartfelt.

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10. AI and Publishing: Tools & Boundaries

(39:01–40:21)

• Embracing AI Cautiously:
  Despite being “old school,” Ziggy admits to using ChatGPT as a junior editorial assistant, rephrasing and brainstorming, but is skeptical of its trustworthiness and flatly refuses to use AI for illustration:

  “For me, that would be a terrible betrayal of the fundamentals… Never for illustration. No way.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 40:10

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11. Personal Notes and Name Revelation

(40:21–40:50)

• Name Origin:
  Ziggy reveals her real name is “Sigal,” which means “Cicada” in French, tying into her company’s name (40:31–40:37).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Risk and Responsibility:

  “I have a responsibility to take risks both on illustration and content.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 09:19

• On Honesty with Young Readers:

  “I have no interest in lying to children because children know when they're being lied to.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 23:52

• On Being a Boutique Publisher:

  “Your chances are less than one in a zillion... but every grain of sand came from somewhere interesting.”
  — Mel Rosenberg, 35:10

• On AI in Art:

  “Never for illustration. No way.”
  — Ziggy Hanaor, 40:21

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Key Timestamps

| Segment | Topic | |---------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:28–05:22 | Book introduction & lyrical reading | | 05:39–08:15 | Dramatic reading of the book's ending | | 08:28–11:06 | On taking risks as a publisher | | 11:16–14:28 | Ziggy’s upbringing and journey into publishing | | 14:28–18:17 | The illustrator-led creative process at Cicada | | 18:20–22:40 | How "Life (As We Know It)" was created | | 22:40–24:31 | The importance of honest storytelling for children | | 25:28–33:28 | “Alte Zachen” and other works—identity, memory, community | | 33:56–36:19 | Boutique publishing: selection and advice | | 36:22–38:39 | Guidance for writers and illustrators | | 39:01–40:21 | ChatGPT and AI: practical use and ethical lines | | 40:21–40:50 | Personal revelations and connecting name to imprint |

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Episode’s Essence & Tone

The conversation is warm, candid, and playful—marked by mutual admiration, humor, and deep respect for children’s literature and illustration. Mel Rosenberg celebrates Ziggy’s “guts” and unique voice, while Ziggy speaks with humility and clarity about the creative risks, business acumen, and ethical considerations that define her publishing journey. The episode is inspiring for anyone interested in literature that trusts children’s intelligence and curiosity, embraces discomfort, and values artistry above market predictability.

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Recommended For:
Aspiring authors and illustrators, independent publishers, educators, and anyone interested in honest, artistically-driven children’s nonfiction.

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“Life (As We Know It)” and Cicada Books challenge kids (and adults) to marvel at the universe without skipping its mysteries, messiness, or responsibility—one lyrical, risky page at a time.

Transcript

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[A]

Welcome to the new.

[B]

And hi everybody. And how lucky I am to be interviewing the one and only Ziggy Anaor, who has painted her decor to be in what's the word with my T shirt. And Ziggy is the first act.

[C]

That's right, it's all color coordinated.

[B]

Coordinated. That was the word I was looking for because you spent time in Israel. When I look at you, I want to speak to you in Hebrew and then I have to go back to English. So very confusing. So Ziggy, welcome to the show. And I am Mel Rosenberg and I am the host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. And wow, also a publisher and also a wonderful, wonderful author. And in our little schmoose before, I mentioned that I've really never met an author like you who really doesn't hold any punches even for six year olds. So please, we're going to celebrate your brand new Book Life. I keep forgetting. I keep practicing in these brackets.

[C]

The world's life as we know it. I'm going to show you this event. Life as we know it.

[B]

Exactly. I'm going to practice. So no, show everybody and talk about. This is your opportunity to shine.

[C]

Well, should I say a little bit about myself and the company first? No, no, just. Just the book. Go straight into the book.

[B]

I know you. We're going to talk a lot about yourself and. Yeah, just straight into start.

[C]

About the book. Okay, so this is. This is a non fiction book and celebrates the origin of our planet and the life that inhabits it. So it's. It's basically a story of evolution from the very beginning until today. But it's written in quite a lyrical style, so it sort of captures the poetry, which is the kind of like incredible miracle of life. And it's brought to life by this wonderful illustrator called Christobal Schmal, who is originally from Chile, living in Germany, and he also brings his own artistic glory to this book. So it's nonfiction, but it's quite unusual nonfiction.

[B]

Ziggy, read us a spread. Show us one of your favorite.

[C]

Okay. All right. I'll begin at the beginning, because that's the only place to start.

[B]

That's where we started. A dot that's so much smaller than a grain of sand.

[C]

So we know this much is true. We think this much is true. We think this much is a truth. In the beginning, in the beginning, which was not a beginning because time did not exist, everything in the universe was concentrated in a single point. Smaller than the point on this page. Far, far smaller. A singular point. 10 zillion times smaller than a grain of sand. And then. And then the singular point exploded into time and space and matter, and the universe was born. This is called the Big Bang. That swirled and swirled, and in places it joined and became a new thing. A thing that was held together by a powerful force. This force is called gravity. And galaxies were formed and solar systems with stars in their centers that burned gases so hot that the particles in their core collided and created huge energy. Shall I stop or continue? Well, you know, I might stop. I'm going to leave it there. Yeah.

[B]

Now, usually I ask the authors to stop because I don't want to get into trouble with the publishers.

[C]

Well, I am the publisher. You are the pioneer.

[B]

You know what I want you to read, Ziggy. I want you to read the ending of the book. The ending of the book that most people would say, this is not for kids.

[C]

Okay. All right. A dark. So. Well, I mean, it's hard to do the actual ending because I guess I'll sort of skim through a little bit. It sort of follows the path of evolution, from the tiny, tiny cells that eventually photosynthesized to explosion of life that was the Cambrian explosion, to the emergence of fish, to then tetrapods, to reptiles, to dinosaurs. It covers all the extinction events that happened along the way. And eventually the dinosaurs are wiped out and it's the rise of the mammals. And some mammals started to swing in trees, and those mammals were called primates. And eventually a very smart primate emerged and that was called. And he was. And that species of ape began to walk upright. It could see the world around it. Its arms were free to use tools. This species was called Hominid. And the hominids roamed in packs. They learned to communicate simply at first, and then with more complexity. And 300,000 years ago, a new species of hominid appeared. And it had the biggest brain of all. It could communicate not just with a small pack, but with a giant tribe. It could outsmart even the biggest and most terrifying predator. This species is called Homo sapiens, or human. And the humans multiplied and spread. They learned new things every day. They told stories, and then they worked together to make some of those stories real. And new things happened to the planet. Not because of the volcanoes that erupted, although they continue to erupt, not because of the Earth's plates shifting, although they continue to shift, but because humans made them happen. They cut down forests for woods. They traded shiny rocks with each other. They dug up fuel that had been hiding deep in the earth for hundreds of millions of years. They burned the fuel to stay warm and to move places and to make things. The other animals couldn't keep up with the powerful humans, and many died out. And next, the changes will keep happening. The atmosphere will warm and glaciers will melt and sea levels will rise, but the Earth will continue spinning. It will keep going round and round the sun. And life on the planet will change, too. Some life will disappear, but then more life will appear. And then that life will die. More life will appear. This is a story. We think this much is true, but we don't know for certain because some things don't make sense, like the tears in the fabric of the universe called black holes, where nothing can exist, not even light, and the tiny particles of matter that somehow appear in two places at once. And we wonder whether there are infinite universes, whether time has any meaning, whether the light that shines down from stars that haven't existed for a billion years. Is the light that fed a planet just like ours or nothing like ours, filled with life as we know it or life as we don't. Then it's the end of the book.

[B]

Yeah, it's hugely philosophical and it talks about death and renewal and you have a lot of guts to publish a book like that.

[C]

Thanks.

[B]

So now we're going to segue to where Ziki got her guts.

[C]

So.

[B]

Talk about your life from when you were born and so on.

[C]

Well, I mean, I mean my life is, you know, just a life. But I guess, I guess the reason that you allowed to be.

[B]

Every courageous person will say that, you know.

[C]

Well, I mean, I think the thing that allows me to be. To basically take risks is that it's my company, so nobody's going to stop me. And that's an amazing position of privilege. I feel very lucky to be able to run a publishing company. It's not an easy thing to do. I've made a lot of mistakes.

[B]

But you own the company.

[C]

Yeah, it's my company. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if anybody told you this, but you know how much guts it takes.

[C]

Well, when the publisher gets guts and it takes someone else to earn some money because it takes a long time to make money in books. So I mean, it's like it's taken a very long time for the company to really work and I feel incredibly lucky to have had this opportunity and I take it really seriously. Like, I take it like I think I have a responsibility to take risks both on illustration and content. And that's what I do. And I don't have to answer to an editorial board. I mean, the sales are obviously really important. I need the company to, to make money. And I have distributors who sell the books into bookshops and Thames and Hudson are my distributors in the UK and I've got Lerner in the States. But, but ultimately the buck stops with me. And when mistakes happen, they're my mistakes. And when things go well, that's, you know, momentary validation.

[B]

You know, I. I have interviewed publishers of relatively small companies and I would say that usually they try and go for the convergence. And this book of yours, which I find fascinating and highly recommended and I saw that it's recommended for 6 to 12 year olds and that's perfect. It's a really philosophical, somewhat existential look at the universe and life and it's really challenging children to be young scientists. And as an ex scientist I really love it and I congratulate you. But it's not like the kind of thing that a regular publisher, a small one would say, oh, let's, you know, let's go for the Michigan here.

[C]

Thank you. Yeah. Sorry.

[B]

Let's start out with the very young Ziggy. We'll try and figure out what made you who you are today.

[C]

Well, I mean, I moved around a lot. My dad's an academic, my mom's a librarian. I spent a lot of time in libraries. I didn't have a TV growing up, which was obviously a source of deep pain. But it did mean that I read a lot. And I think I've always been kind of a visual person. I think illustration and visual communication has always been something that's. That I've been drawn to and perhaps in like, oh, what a fun.

[B]

I love it. I love it.

[C]

Yeah, right. Yeah. So, yeah, no, I mean, in another life, I would have gone to art school, but, you know, I ended up studying drama randomly in Bristol. I lived in Israel and I left Israel when I was 20 and I moved to the UK to study and I studied drama and I worked in television as a script editor for a while. And I really liked working with writers and I really liked working with story, but I didn't really like. It's a very kind of like, big, quite political world, television. And so I sort of, you know, it was the early 2000s, so you could just segue because there were jobs to be had. And so I managed to segue into publishing and I worked in art and design publishing, so doing kind of art and design books for adults. And I had some success. Like, I had, like, I worked for a small independent company, but, like, I commissioned books that did well. I guess I was probably, like, overly confident. And when I got pregnant with my first child, I was like, I don't want to work for anyone else. I'm going to set up my own company. I'm going to just, like, do it for a while whilst my kids are a tiny. And then I'll go back into the publishing world. But to be honest, once I was doing it for myself, I was like, I'm never working for anyone again. So basically, it started off very slow and my kids were tiny. I was doing one or two books a year and then it sort of gradually picked up and I really wanted to work with illustrators. I mean, the world of illustration is something that I feel like I instinctively connect to. And weirdly so this is sort of maybe like 2015, 2016. Like, the world of Instagram was really changing the landscape of illustration. Illustrators Traditionally, like basically live in caves, drawing and you know, and it's quite a solitary pursuit. And Instagram really opened up the world of illustration, created community and a discourse around illustration. So it's kind of good timing. And I was sort of, I really wanted to work with illustrators and you can't really do that very much in adult books, which I actually think is very sad. But that's how I sort of ended up in children's publishing. So I moved from art and design to children's and my official first year I consider to be 2018, which is when I published the first picture book from Cicada. And that's what I've been doing ever since, just working with illustrators. It's a very illustrator led process which is quite unusual for a publisher. Most publishers work and work with agents. You know, it's, it's quite an unusual way to kind of like let your illustrators kind of lead you places.

[B]

So this is my next question. So how do you, how do you. Because you have a separate unique way of illustrator led a publishing. And how does this work for someone who doesn't illustrate. Run, run this by me please, and everybody.

[C]

Okay. So I mean I work with, I work like, basically I find illustrators whose work I really love. Like when I, when I. And I, I don't see it very often, but like when I do, I know. And, and then I set up a zoom with them and I'm like, what do you want to do? What's the book that you want to do? So, so I have to. So, so I'll just explain. So Sakato publishes between eight and ten books a year. About half of them are nonfiction. And that is the bread and butter of the company. Like the nonfiction books I'm guaranteed to sell. And they can be on like I love doing nonfiction books as well. I mean life is nonfiction, but in my mind it's sort of like somewhere in between. Most of the books are more traditional nonfiction. I've done a book about sleep, about natural disasters. When I say I, we. The company has done books about these things. Fossils, empires and the way the. Basically I feel like I've slightly digressed, but basically I speak to an illustrator, I find out what interests them. Them. If they are somebody who can do nonfiction, that's great. We find a subject that interests us that is sort of vaguely. I know I'm going to be able to sell it. I know I'm going to be able to sell foreign language rights, which is very important. And then I get writers and I get consultants to advise, and we put the book together alongside the illustrator. So the text is sort of written, and I know what the illustrator kind of wants to draw and is kind of leaning towards. And. And it's a sort of back and forth between me and the writer and the illustrator. Putting the nonfiction books together, the fiction books, the picture books and stuff are a combination of things. So very occasionally you get an amazing illustrator who can also write. That's pretty unusual because illustrators tend to be visual people. Text and structure is not usually their strong point, but occasionally you do. There's, like, a few writers I've worked with who are brilliant. Sven Volker is great.

[B]

So let's shout out to Professor Sven Volker, who actually introduced us, which is.

[C]

Yeah, that's right. So, I mean, Sven is. Sven is. Hi. Hi, Sven. Sven is like an amazing. Like, he's just an amazing conceptualist. Like, he comes up with these incredibly smart ideas, and then he has the vision to kind of, like, visualize them and to kind of bring them into life. And Lidia Brankovic, who he actually taught, wrote the book that is most successful for the company at the moment, which is the Grand Hotel Feeling.

[B]

The Hotel. The hotel book.

[C]

Yeah. And that's been translated into 26 languages. Yeah.

[B]

And that's written in his course.

[C]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. It was her graduate project, so she did it when she was, like, 23 or something. Yeah. And so with those books, like, I mean, I'm a very involved editor, so I'll help them structure. I'll help them restructure it. I'll help, you know, I'll help them kind of find the shape to it, because often, especially when it's your project, you have a sense of it, but it's like, that's the joy of, like, the editorial role is kind of saying, okay, this is working, but we need to change this into first person, for example, or we need more of a kind of, like, structure towards the end. Like, we need a kind of nicer out, whatever it is. So that's. Yeah, that's sort of one of the ways in which I work with illustrators. But every project is different and every. You know, it's all very organic and many small publishers.

[B]

The publisher is also an author.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're also an author. So these books, the one that I love so much and can't remember the name, it is called Life as We Know It. So this. How was the evolution of this?

[C]

But okay, so that. That is basically. So I did a book called Well, I worked on a book called Stones and Bones, which is a book about fossils, and it is the story of life on the planet. It's a much more traditional nonfiction book. I can actually show it to you if you want. Do you want me to. One second. Yeah, sure.

[A]

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[A]

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[B]

We were returning home, and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and meet Kath and Andrew.

[C]

I got to sit in the driver's seat.

[B]

I grew up in an aviation family, and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me of myself when I was that age.

[C]

That's Andrew, a real United pilot. These small interactions can shape a kid's future. It felt like I was as the.

[B]

Captain, allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever.

[C]

That's how good leads the way.

[B]

It's your show, Ziggy.

[C]

Okay, well, this is Stones and Bones. And this is like a sort of. This is illustrated by this amazing illustrator called Sophie Will. So Sophie Williams and her partner, Rob Wilshaw, who's an amateur. Well, actually qualified paleontologist. Um, so this was a collaboration between the two of them, and I worked really closely with them editing this book, and it sort of blew my mind. So this is. This is Through Fossils, the story of Life on Earth. And it's like a much more traditional non fiction book. And I found myself like telling people about this book because it was like such a revelation to me. I don't know whether, like, maybe I wasn't listening in science classes when I was a kid, like, but this is like all brand new to me. Like the kind of the way in which kind of like the planet, there was nothing. It was just like this ball of molten rock. And then magically, this miracle, these cells appeared and they breathed and they reproduced and they started photosynthesizing and then the atmosphere filled with oxygen and then all these other creatures emerged. And I found myself at a party telling this friend of mine the story of evolution. And as I was telling it, I was like, this is a story and this is like. And I found that I could tell it very concisely. Like I could sort of like eliminate like 90% of the text. And the story still held, it still worked as a story. And yeah, and I went home that night and I wrote it. So. Yeah, that's how it came to be. Yeah. And then, and then I did. I sort of wrote it. And I wasn't sure. Like, it almost felt too ambitious, like it almost felt too arrogant to be able to kind of like, to kind of like say it like that. It seemed like a kind of, you know, especially as a non qualified scientist or anything. And I wasn't sure about it. And then I was talking to Christobal Schmal, who's the illustrator, and we were trying to find a project to work on and we were sort of bouncing ideas around and I was like, oh, I've got this text. Like, I don't know whether it's like crazy or like not. And he was like, no, we're doing it. This is happening. So that's it. That happened.

[B]

Fantastic. No, I mean, there's a lot of guts in this book for so many different reasons. Because essentially, as you acknowledge, we really don't know very much about our universe.

[C]

No. And that's why I say it's a story. It is a story. Like, I don't know.

[B]

That's why I like it. I mean, if a scientist had written it, it would have been, and I'm speaking now on behalf of all scientists, it might have been different. And also I can see the wonder in your eyes and in your story. Like, you know, you're arriving at life as we know it. And it's like I'm reading them and say, oh, you know, my Ziggy's like, You know, wow, wow, wow, wow.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But towards the end, there is this sort of teaching thing, you know, that we are destroying our own planet.

[C]

Well, I mean, I think it's just like, again, I didn't want to. I don't really like books that preach. I don't really like books that tell. And I also really don't like books that reassure, that give false reassurance. And one of the things that really annoys me at the moment is like, endless books saying, like, basically, if you recycle the planet, it's going to be fine. Like, it's not going to be fine. Like, things are not okay. And I have no interest in lying to children because children know when they're being lied to. And, you know, and I think it's. It's really important to give children what facts we have, which is like, this is happening. And, you know, and that's scary. But also, the world is bigger than us. Like, we are just. Like, we've been here for 300,000 years. That is like, nothing. Like, started nothing. And we will be gone and life will continue. There will be something else and maybe we'll leave something behind. Who knows? But what I don't want to say is it's all going to be fine.

[B]

No, that's what is so brave and gutsy about UN and the book. And I really. So finally, I just reviewed a book for adults on evolution. So it was interesting to compare. And I must say that I was reading your book just the other day, and, you know, I live near Tel Aviv, and the. It's November and It was like 30, 31 degrees, which in Fahrenheit, I don't know, it's about a million. It was like a hot summer day. And it's getting like this every year now. You know, we're getting into winter and. And I'm reading your book and I'm saying, oy vey, oy vey. I wanna be optimistic. And then you hit me with it. But it's a bravo book. And a few more. And so the Altesaghen. This wasn't your idea either?

[C]

No, that was my idea. Altersaghen was my idea. I mean, those two books are actually books that I wrote in advance. Sometimes I write books alongside an illustrator. Now, Alto Sachen was actually like, I wrote that for PJ Library back in the day. I mean, I was like, oh, I want a part of the PJ Library pie. And so I was like, what can I do it like that.

[B]

Not everybody here is Jewish. Not everybody knows the miracle. It's PJ Library. So a few words about PJ Library.

[C]

Well, maybe you should do a few words about PJ Library.

[B]

No, you do it because I, you know.

[C]

Well, I mean, I don't. I mean, PJ Library is basically like a. It's a charity that. That does themes, Jewish themed books and basically gives them for free to anyone, you know, from the Jewish community who wants them.

[B]

Or almost for free.

[C]

Or almost for free. And they do huge print runs. It is like massive print runs.

[B]

Yeah, well, I'm a. What's the word? A beneficiary. Because my recent book Emily Saw a Door in Hebrew, which is published in a 50,000 print run for kids here in second grade. So there's an Israeli arm called Pyjama which also publishes books here. So I'm only going to say nice things about them these days. So you wrote that book to send to.

[C]

I wrote that book to send them because they were looking for middle grade books and I was like, what can I do that feels honest? Because, I mean, my connection to my identity is. Feels very personal. I don't feel particularly part of, like the community in a way. Like, it's, you know, I feel very Jewish, but I don't. I have a. I keep a wary distance of. Of community, I guess, and I didn't want to do something that felt. That didn't feel right. And so I wanted to do it. So anyway, I wrote this book and it sort of. It's an old lady and her grandson walking through New York buying ingredients for Friday night dinner.

[B]

It's a crabby old lady.

[C]

She's a really cantankerous, grumpy old lady. And basically the city is not as she remembers it. Her connection to her community, her connection to the city is not there anymore. And it makes her really angry. And so she's really foul to like the girl at the checkout who's got like piercings and is kind of like gothy and, you know, and the. And the butcher who is like, is he really kosher? Is he really kosher? And, you know, and then she feels like he's ripping her off. And then there's like a hipster vaping and she like tells him, like, tells him to stop smoking. And he's like, it's a vape. And she's like. She's like. And he's got his sort of tattooed. And he's like, tattoos. I know people with tattoos. And so it's sort of like this.

[B]

This has to be autobiographical. There has to be A story that's sort of like.

[C]

It's an amalgamation of like, you know, a lot of old Jewish ladies. But it's also, to be honest, like I'm. I'm sort of more Benji than, than Bubbie. Like, you know, I feel. And so Benji, so she's walking through like being pretty confrontational and difficult whilst also kind of having her own memories that had sort of fed into this kind of like prickly exterior. And her grandson sort of like doesn't have that connection to Judaism, doesn't have those kind of references, like is who he is and sort of accepts the city in a kind of very kind of like wide eyed kind of way. And I wanted to look at that, I wanted to look at that experience through this intergenerational divide. And I don't know, I just wrote it. I just wrote it and, and I liked it and I wrote it and I was like, yeah, that's kind of good.

[B]

Who's the Bobby?

[C]

The Bobby is actually not like. Because my grandparents were not like Bobby. My grandmother on my dad's side was German, but they moved to Palestine in 1933. So they were not of the Polish Pale of settlement community. They were young Zionists in Berlin. They were kind of. They were sort of like.

[B]

That Bobby is so. I mean it's like not my Bobby, but other people's book.

[C]

Yeah, no, I mean it's mostly, mostly, mostly my friend, my friend who I grew up with, like, it's sort of her hobby really.

[B]

It's like, it's like a.

[C]

It's an amalgamation. I mean it's in Israel. Like you meet, you meet them, you meet a lot of those bubbies one way or another.

[B]

It's like a Marie Sendak. It's end up if he's aunts and uncles somehow.

[C]

Exactly. Exactly. Well, I guess so. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It's a wonderful book and it's already won awards.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. It was shortlisted for the Carnegie and it won the V and a best illustration award, which is a very big illustration award because Ben Phillips is an amazing illustrator. Like, just.

[B]

Do you have it to show us the spread?

[C]

I do, I do. I have it right here. Look, here we go.

[B]

It's so gorgeous.

[C]

Thanks. I'll show you one of the spreads. That's Bubby. That's Bubby and Benji. Yeah, yeah. I mean Ben. I'm actually doing another book with Ben at the moment which is an adult graphic novel and I just, I love working with him.

[B]

I don't know much about New York. These are actual places In New York. This is like, from your experience?

[C]

I mean, yeah, I lived in. Well, I lived in New Jersey as a child, and then I moved. I lived in New York for a year in 2010. So I guess, like. I guess I feel a connection to New York, but it's more of a. Yeah, I mean, New York is like a concept anyway, isn't it, really? I mean, there are like. It's like. I mean, the concept of New York, especially kind of for a Jewish community, is something kind of like that transcends the actuality of it. But, yes, I mean, the places are places that I know. Like, you know, there's areas of Brooklyn and the Upper west side, and they sort of tried traverse the city across the dark.

[B]

I think that all good books are mosaics from our memory. And my recent book is about a girl going from door to door, from door to door to try and seek acceptance. Welcome. And I just remember the other day that I used to sell products door to door in Ottawa.

[C]

Oh, there you go.

[B]

And, you know, I say, oh, my goodness, that book is about this too. So I think that sometimes, you know, a year from now, I'll remember some other thing that happened to me and say, oh, that's in the book too. I'm not sure we always know what we write about.

[C]

Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's true. You write it and then you look at it and you're like, oh, my God. Like, that's pretty exposing.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And so what happens with PJ Library?

[C]

Oh, they didn't want it. Like, it wasn't for them, which was like, fine. So I shelved it. I was, like, in a folder on my computer for, like, maybe two years. And then a similar thing with Christopher. Like, I saw Ben's work on Instagram. I was like, I have to work with this guy. Like, I just have to. And then we just couldn't find a project. And then I sent it to him. His maternal grandmother was Jewish, was actually kind of a similar character. So he connected immediately and was like, yes, this is the project. And then he slaved for, like, two years putting this book together. Because, I mean, a graphic novel is, like a million times more work than, like, any picture book. I mean, it's really life as we know. It was a really big project because that's also almost graphic novel format, but Alpozakhan was, like, even bigger. And at least with. With. With life. It's. It's. It's part of the coloring is digital. Ben does everything analog. So it's like, with light boxes. Like, he does the pencil and then the inking and then the ink washing. Like, it's incredibly laborious. And he just did such an amazing job. So.

[B]

And then you have the. Also the music one. That's a graphic novel type of book.

[C]

Oh, yeah, that's. That's ya. That's. That's just come out. That's actually not out in the States yet. That's everything amplified. This is a teen graphic novel. It's about teens, twins. Teens. And what is it? Twins, tunes and teenage turbulence. Sorry, I forgot my elevator pitch. Yeah.

[B]

You forget the pitch. I forget the name of the book.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Somehow.

[C]

Somehow we get there eventually.

[B]

Somehow we manage. So people can send you material, but you publish only eight books a year.

[C]

We publish eight books a year. I mean, it's a very small company. It's me and one other person. And then we work with all the freelancers. I mean, I don't really take on books by writers just because I write. I have people who I work with. And I guess if the most amazing thing fell on my plate, I might. But basically, if I take on a writer, that means that I'm splitting the royalty between the illustrator and the writer. And I really like working with her. I really like the illustrator. Getting money. We could. Because they work so damn hard for it. So that's sort of part of it. That's obviously not the only reason. But I basically like illustrator LED books. So if an illustrator sent me a portfolio and they don't even need to send me book ideas, if they sent me a portfolio and I really like their work, then I would have a zoom with them and we'd find a project to work on. I don't want to give anyone false hope. Like, it is a race. And actually my lists are pretty full, so.

[B]

No, no, let me somehow manage the expectations. Okay. Ziggy has a beautiful boutique publishing house. She publishes very few books. Your chances are less than one in a zillion. Like the. Like the grain of sand. In her new book. However, every grain of sand came from somewhere interesting. Yeah. So if you are an outstanding illustrator and you feel that you're not run of the mill, whatever that is, then it doesn't hurt to try.

[C]

No. And you can reach out to us on Instagram, like, you know, we read. I mean, that's probably the best because then I can immediately look at your work and see if it's, like, what we're looking for. Because. And when we. Basically, we're pretty much Mostly looking for hand drawn illustration styles. And you can, you can look at our books. It's cicadabooks.co.uk. have a look at kind of like what we publish, if you think your.

[B]

Wrap fits in, unless you're an American, which is Cicada Books.

[C]

Oh, Cicada Books, yes. Cicada. Cicada, yeah.

[B]

Potatoes.

[C]

Tomato. Tomato.

[B]

So we are unfortunately running out of time. And this happens in a world that is based on time, you see.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

So what advice do you have for. So we'll put authors. Because you're also an author, you know, I mean, so share some advice that you have.

[C]

I mean, I don't really have any advice. I think every author approaches things in their own way, finds their own way to it. For me, I'm a very fast writer. Like, when I have an idea and I can kind of feel it, I sort of feel it in its. In its entirety. And then it just like. And I just have to. I have to do it immediately because if I wait, it sort of might dematerialize. But that's the way I write. Like, my partner is a writer. He writes for television and he's really slow. He's super slow, but he's amazing. But it's like his process, it's like a much slower metabolism. It's kind of like he sort of digests and filters and it all comes out in its own way. So, yeah, I have no tips, really.

[B]

And for the poor illustrators who first of all work for Peanuts, and also the chance of breaking in in the traditional publishing world is so slim. I'm sure that you go to Bologna, perhaps we'll meet this year. And illustrators. Beautiful illustrations all over the place and so hard to break it. A few words.

[C]

Look. I mean, illustration is like music. It's like I. I mean, it's like you have these incredibly talented musicians and you're like, why is that one successful and that one not? I honestly couldn't tell you. There are some incredibly talented illustrators. It's a cutthroat world, but it's like anything. It's like musicians. It's like, if you want to make music, you're going to make music. You're going to keep doing it, even if you're not making money from it. And the same is true for illustrators. A lot of the illustrators I've worked with have, you know, they. In fact, most illustrators I work with have other jobs. They work at schools or they teach or whatever it is, or they work in a cheese Shop in one case. But, like, you know, that's. It's like. But they. But they do it to keep their art alive, and they keep their art alive however it needs to stay alive. And then, you know. And I love them for it. I really love my illustrators.

[B]

Which brings us to the last question for today, because I definitely want to have you on again. The time just. I can't believe we scored 40 minutes already. So we'll talk about the elephant in the room named Chachi, pt, Claude, so on. And, like, I sense, Ziggy, that you're old school.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I am old school. I mean, look, I can't. You know, I don't. I'm not old. Like, I don't want to be a dinosaur. I don't want to kind of, like, I don't want. But, you know, you have to stay abreast of things. You have to engage with things. I do use ChatGPT. I actually find ChatGPT quite helpful because, like, I can use it almost as a junior editor. I can write things, and I can ask it to rephrase it, and then I can kind of like. And then I can edit what it gives me back. Like, and that is a super helpful tool for me. I would never ask ChatGPT to write a book, and I would never, ever ask.

[B]

You don't have to. Can't he help you? Can I write your book?

[C]

I'll tell you, though, for nonfiction, there is that temptation of, like, you know. But unfortunately, ChatGPT lies, so I can't rely on it. So it's actually a fairly easy temptation to resist. For anything fiction, of course, there's no point. But the thing that I feel very strongly about, and maybe it's because I'm not an illustrator, is that I will never use AI for illustration. For me, that would be a terrible betrayal of the fundamentals. I'll use it for writing in a very specific way because that's my metier, and I know how to control it, and I know how to make that. Okay, but, like, never. Never for illustration. No way.

[B]

And finally, Ziggy Hanaor. What is your. What is your real name? Not Ziggy?

[C]

Sigal.

[B]

Sigal.

[C]

That is such a beautiful name, which means cicada in French.

[B]

Aha. Okay, we understand.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Okay, so we found some secrets today.

[C]

You did?

[B]

Anything else you want to divulge while we're still on the air?

[C]

Not really, no. I feel like I've divulged quite a lot.

[B]

You have. So this is a time to wave your gorgeous book, Life as We Know It.

[C]

Which one? Love as We Know It.

[B]

Yeah, Love as We Know it and Life as We Know it, which is a wonderful brand new book. The illustrations are, I'm going to say, out of this world, literally and figuratively. And it's a thought provoking book that doesn't hold any punches. Nonfiction, but overwhelming in several ways. And congratulations on that. And congratulations on Cicada. Cicada. You know, I didn't know who you were when I saw Sven foil Page Books and it was like, oh, my goodness, who publishes these? Amazing, incredible. And now we've had a chance to meet and I thank you very, very much for your time. So I've been here with the author and publisher, Ziggy Hanaor, AKA Sigal. And I'm Mel Rosenberg, talking to you from the Holy Land. And I am the. What am I? I'm the host of the Children's Literature Channel, the New Books Network. And Ziggy, we're going to send everybody else home, run out and buy her books. The ones she's written and the ones she's published. They are really, really gorgeous. Ziggy, thanks. We're going to go and come back to the same link and send everybody else to learn more about you and your wife.

[C]

Okay? You want me to leave and come back or stay here?

[B]

Yeah. Everybody else is just going to leave. You have to leave and come back.

[C]

I have to leave and come back. Okay, see you later, everyone. Great, thank you. Bye.