Best of Rory & Mal: Week of 10/20

Summary

New Rory & MAL – Best of Rory & Mal: Week of 10/20

Release Date: October 27, 2025
Podcast by: iHeartPodcasts and The Volume

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Episode Overview

This "Best Of" episode captures a week’s worth of the sharp, humorous, and opinionated banter that Rory, Mal, Dakota, Josh, and guest Justin bring to topics ranging from music industry practices (with a nearly philosophical Taylor Swift album variant debate), to candid insights on artist collaborations and heartbreak, and a breakdown of the NBA’s explosive gambling scandal. As always, the conversation jumps between hot takes, industry insider knowledge, and the group’s trademark unfiltered storytelling.

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Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

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1. The Taylor Swift Album Variants Controversy

[02:50 – 12:44]

• Twitter's Double Standards & Russ's Defense:
  The group discusses the social media discourse around Taylor Swift releasing multiple album variants, noting that other artists do it but only Taylor is labeled "greedy."

  • "Whenever Taylor releases a new album, all of a sudden the discourse of album variants comes into play..." – Josh [02:59]
  • Russ’s defense on Twitter is cited: if artists can sell shirts in different colors, why not albums with different covers?

• Consumer Choice vs. Manipulation:
  Consensus emerges that giving fans choices isn’t unethical, especially when "no one's forcing anybody to buy 10 different variants from Taylor Swift." – Josh [03:47]

  • Rory argues, "I'm never going to get mad at Taylor Swift being so good at creating a cult that they'll buy multiple versions of the same album if that's what they want to do." [04:05]

• Numbers Manipulation & Impact on Artists:
  Dakota introduces the argument about variant/deluxe releases skewing charts, which can prevent other artists from hitting No. 1.

  • "Taylor's going to number one anyway. But releasing deluxes, deluxes, deluxes... may keep somebody else from getting a number one on a country chart or R&B chart or Billboard 200. So that does affect other people." – Dakota [05:52]

• Fans and Fandoms:
  Rory emphasizes chart numbers don’t impact everyday fans: "Like nothing is going to change because of the numbers." [07:24] Still, for young fans, Dakota points out, concern over "manipulating a younger fanbase to continue to spend money" is valid. Rory’s response: "That’s the parents’ fault." [07:53]

• Ethics of Monetizing a Fanbase:
  The team debates creator guilt vs. consumer agency, with Dakota reframing: "You’re not holding a gun to their head... they find it valuable or not, and it's up to them to spend their money on it." [08:22]

• Final Thoughts:
  Both appreciate the vinyl and collector culture as a positive evolution for artists; direct-to-consumer strategies are "part of being a fan and a consumer." [11:40]

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2. R&B Collaboration vs. Rap Collaboration

[17:27 – 21:17]

• Rappers vs. R&B Community:
  Rory opens the discussion on why rappers are perceived as non-collaborative, when in truth R&B artists rarely work together within their own "graduating class." [17:27]

• Guest Justin’s Creative Reflections:
  Justin expresses nostalgia and mild regret over the lack of unity: "We started alternative R&B. There was no category for that... It is a shame to think that we never really did [collaborate]."* – Justin [18:39]

• Historical Context & Production Approach:
  Rory reflects that, historically, being in the same sessions led to more natural collaborations, whereas today’s R&B artists are vision-driven and hands-on with production, making joint work trickier.

• The Songwriter’s Dilemma:
  Justin muses on why "killer verses" work in rap but not so much for singers, given the holistic approach to songwriting in R&B.

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3. Artist Heartbreak: Meeting Your Idols & Creative Regrets

[21:17 – 27:57]

• Justin on Working with Pharrell (and Regret):
  Justin candidly describes his experience and missed creative connection with Pharrell during the "Kaleidoscope Dream" era.

  • "I just wish I would have locked in with him more because he's a hero of mine... I just wasn't ready for that." – Justin [23:29][23:59]

• On Young Artists with Strong Vision:
  The group affirms that being uncompromising as an artist is commendable, citing Jid leaving an Eminem verse off an album as evidence of creative integrity.

• Pharrell’s Foresight:
  Justin admits Pharrell was ahead of his time in urging him to lean into his Latin heritage, and years later, Justin recognizes he wasn't ready then, though he is now. "[Pharrell] was coaching, you know... I just wasn't ready." – Justin [27:57]

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4. NBA Gambling & Fixing Scandal

[28:32 – 47:07]

• The Breaking News:
  The crew unpacks recent arrests of former NBA players and coaches—including Chauncey Billups and Terry Rozier—in a mafia-linked gambling investigation.

  • "We have Damon Jones being arrested. We have Chauncey Billups being arrested. We have Terry Rozier, whose situation is separate, but it's still a gambling arrest." – Josh [30:16]

• Gilbert Arenas as a Whistleblower:
  Discussion turns to former NBA player Gilbert Arenas, who publicly joked he’d cooperate with the feds: "I didn't Snitch yet. I didn't cooperate, but I will." – Josh, quoting Gilbert [30:48]

• The Mechanics of Scandal:
  Details emerge about players leaking insider info (e.g. injuries) to organized crime, fixing prop bets, and point shaving.

  • "The defendants leveraged their connections to place prop bets... winning tens of thousands of dollars per bet." – Josh [32:22]
  • "Apparently, Damon Jones was just letting the Mob know about LeBron's ankle." – Rory [33:16]

• NBA-Wide Implications:
  The case implicates 30 people—including mafia members—across 11 states, and involves complex schemes such as shuffling machines at underground poker games.

• Sports Integrity & Hall of Fame:
  The hosts debate whether players caught in such scandals should lose Hall of Fame eligibility. Rory draws a line: "If you throw... get the fuck out of the hall of Fame. But if you bet on yourself, I think that should be cool." [44:38]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Taylor Swift's Fan Power:
  "I'm never going to get mad at Taylor Swift being so good at creating a cult that they will buy multiple versions of the same album if that's what they want to do." – Rory [04:05]

• On Manipulated Chart Numbers:
  "If you have the ability to create a fan base that will buy multiple products from you, I don't think there's anything to condemn there." – Rory [04:23]

• Parental Responsibility:
  "That's the parents fault. If Amara comes and says, I want three versions of the same Taylor Swift album. Amara, you're getting one." – Rory [07:53]

• On Working with Pharrell:
  "I just wish I would have locked in with him more because he's a hero of mine... but I just wanted to go a different direction." – Justin [23:29–25:03]

• On NBA Scandal Transparency:
  "This is just a trickle now, because if you remember, Gilbert Arenas was arrested a few months ago by the FBI... He said, I'm not gonna be there. When it's starting to go. Cause, yeah, I'm snitching now. Gilbert's words..." – Josh [30:50]
  "Do you think that's why the FBI called this operation Nothing But Net?" – Rory [31:28]

• Player Complicity:
  "[Ref Tim Donaghy] said in an interview that he believed every single ref was involved with some form of gambling or point shaving decisions." – Rory [40:25]

• Sports & Integrity:
  “If you've done anything to jeopardize the integrity of the sport... I think that is something to look at and be like, that might get you kicked out of the Hall of Fame.” – Josh [44:00]
  “I agree, but I do feel like Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame because he bet on himself.” – Rory [44:38]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Taylor Swift Album Variants & Music Consumerism: 02:50 – 12:44
• R&B Collaboration vs. Rap: 17:27 – 21:17
• Creative Regret & Pharrell Story: 21:17 – 27:57
• NBA Gambling & Scandal Deep Dive: 28:32 – 47:07

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Tone & Flow

The episode crackles with the hosts’ mix of sharp takes, dry humor, and openness about the complexities of fame, fandom, creativity, and the dark underbelly of professional sports. Their chemistry keeps the pace quick and the listener engaged, whether breaking down accusations against Taylor Swift or riffing on the mafia's infiltration of the NBA.

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For listeners who missed this episode:
This "Best Of" delivers the quintessential Rory & Mal vibe: bold opinions, real insights into music and sports, unfiltered humor, and the rare ability to turn industry drama into relatable conversations about money, power, and culture.

Transcript

[Dakota]

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[Rory]

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[Justin]

The volume.

[Josh]

I'm actually calling with more of a music industry question for y'.

[Rory]

All. Okay, so as all of us have.

[Josh]

Probably known by now, Taylor Swift has.

[Rory]

Released her new album recently.

[Josh]

Yes. And whenever Taylor releases a new album, all of a sudden the discourse of.

[Rory]

Album variants comes into play.

[Josh]

Even though most major artists release multiple different variants of their albums. And it's crickets on the timeline. But then once Taylor does it now.

[Rory]

There'S this whole discourse about how she's.

[Josh]

Greedy and she hates her fans, blah blah blah. And I did see on Twitter that.

[Rory]

Russ was kind of defending her and.

[Josh]

He made a really good point to me where he said if he decides to release merch or say new Rory.

[Rory]

Mall releases merch and they have a hoodie, but they have that hoodie in seven different colors, is that now all of a sudden greedy or is it just giving fans know variety and giving.

[Josh]

Fans what they want?

[Rory]

No one's forcing them to buy seven hoodies.

[Josh]

No one's forcing anybody to buy 10 different variants from Taylor Swift. So what are your guys opinions on album variants?

[Rory]

Are they a big deal?

[Josh]

Is Twitter just blowing this up because Taylor's reached a level of fame where everybody's just trying to find a reason to tear her down? But yeah, what's your guys opinions on this?

[Rory]

Thanks. I mean he brought up the Russ tweet and that's what I was going to bring up as well. I, I agreed with what Russ said. If you have the ability to create a fan base that will buy multiple products from you, I don't think there's anything to condemn there. Like if you have that ability where they will be that die hard to spend their money to feed your fan base that way. Like it's not feeding your fan base. But I'm never going to get mad at Taylor Swift being so good at creating a cult that they will buy multiple versions of the same album if that's what they want to do. I mean this is still America, right? They can do what they want with their money.

[Josh]

Yeah, I don't think there's anything about that.

[Dakota]

I agree. Now if you want feed your, feed your consumer, if you want to fight it on the basis of you feel like it's skewing numbers when you release a deluxe, a deluxe deluxe and a deluxe deluxe, if you feel like it's skewing numbers. You want to argue that that's an argument that people have been having. I get that.

[Rory]

But skewing numbers, that's only become. Well, let me not say only become something recently, but it's heightened in social media Stan culture as of late. Of course, like, once 50 and Kanye battled it out, that started the whole numbers talk for everything. But now it's to a whole different level. Numbers don't matter to the world. Like, it doesn't matter. Who cares if she manipulates the numbers there? Like, what. That doesn't affect anyone's life except for this label in her.

[Dakota]

That's not. Well, that's not true. I don't think that that's what she's doing or I don't care if that's what she's doing. But that's not true. You yourself, and this wasn't numbers manipulation. Your life changed because Tina Turner died before your album came out. And you were not able to get the number one R&B album which you would have had had Tina Turner not died and people streamed her music and she beat you.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Dakota]

So granted, Taylor's going number one anyway. But as far as just period on the overall scale of large artists manipulating things and releasing deluxes. Deluxes. Deluxes, where their album now keeps going back up to number one, which may keep somebody else from getting a number one on a country chart or R and B chart or a Billboard 200. So that does affect other people.

[Rory]

Like, I get what I'm saying from the fan side, like, that's just become a stand. Like, it doesn't affect anyone's life if Taylor Swift is manipulating now. Yeah. If I'm an artist and in my contract with a major, I get a bump on an advance because if I hit a number one or. Or stipulations like that. Yeah, I'm g be pissed. I mean, I wasn't mad at Tina Turner, but. But it would have been nice to. To say, hey, had number one. But again, it also didn't affect anything about that album. Like, the album got the same amount of strings that it would have had it been.

[Dakota]

Yeah, of course.

[Rory]

I think I ended up number three. It was two Tina Turner.

[Dakota]

Oh, yeah.

[Rory]

Two Tina Turners.

[Dakota]

Yeah.

[Rory]

How do I get a number three when I should have had number one? But I mean, yeah, I wasn't really mad at that. But I also am independent. Like, there's certain milestones that if I hit does. It doesn't affect what my deal will be.

[Dakota]

Yeah.

[Rory]

But to the fans that talk about all this, like, these numbers don't affect any of you.

[Dakota]

Yeah.

[Rory]

Like, I know it's cool. Like, if you're a barb to be like, I'm happy I can say Nikki has a number one. But if Nikki has a number two, pause. The album is still going to be the exact same to the consumer.

[Dakota]

Yeah.

[Rory]

Like, nothing is going to change because of the numbers. But Russ's point is, why the would you be mad at all artist that is utilizing their fan base? If y' all want to buy a bunch of, do it.

[Dakota]

To play devil's advocate, because I agree with Russ. But to play devil's advocate, just to have a conversation, if the fan base is young kids, which Taylor does have a lot of in her fan base, then you could say that you're manipulating a younger fan base to continue to spend money on your stuff.

[Rory]

Then I'm gonna get on my. My Cameron, Bill O'Reilly thing. That's the parents fault. If Amara comes and says, I want three versions of the same Taylor Swift album. Amara, you're getting one.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Dakota]

Yeah.

[Rory]

Like, yeah, you're getting one of them Now. I think there's a lot of Swifties that are adults that have great jobs and however they want to spend their money, as long as not harming anyone, who are we to judge anyone for that? We all buy weird shit. I was just talking about buying, like, yeah, but.

[Dakota]

I mean, but me and you have had.

[Josh]

We had an own pussy. Weird shit is hilarious.

[Dakota]

Me and you have a disagreement that we ended up cutting out of an episode. As far as when I said, you should start a patreon, a personal patreon, and then we talked about our own patreon that we have as far as like. And you were like, well, I feel bad having fans pay for things. And I said. And I said the exact same thing to you where I said, that's their choice to spend their money. You're not holding a gun to their head. You're like, I feel like I'm asking them for money. And it's like, no, you're providing something and either they find it valuable or not valuable, and it's up to them to spend their money on it.

[Rory]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I just view the consumer thing as what their, like, monthly overhead is and, like, what we're asking, like, all right, this month we're asking someone to pay for $20 here. We're releasing merch at this price. Oh, we also have live tickets on sale. Like, I think about those types of things. Because I do care about our listeners. Like to just add more shit.

[Dakota]

Yeah, but that's.

[Rory]

You weren't wrong in anything you were saying. It was like just more of a morality thing of like, damn, I. Like, I don't. Do I want to ask them to spend another $10. Like I know I should be.

[Dakota]

And that's what.

[Josh]

You have morals.

[Dakota]

That's what the people are saying about Taylor Swift.

[Josh]

Okay, but here's how she has no morals.

[Dakota]

No, they're saying that she's not considering the consumer.

[Josh]

Or you're just doing what most celebrities or stars do. Like people who you're trying to find a way to. Yeah, you're trying to find a way to. You can't please everybody, but you want to try to please as many as you can. So maybe you can't get this album, maybe you can't get this merch, maybe you can't go to this live show, but somebody can. Somebody can go to this live show.

[Rory]

Yeah, somebody can have different options of shit.

[Josh]

Different options of things that you can buy and support your artists or, you know, whoever it is.

[Rory]

I think you're both right that you're.

[Josh]

Supporting, but I don't think it's something that should be frowned upon. Now I do get where that can kind of trip the numbers and things like that, but somebody like Taylor Swift, that doesn't. She's Taylor Swift, bro. The numbers are gonna be the numbers. No matter if she has one version of her album or 17 versions of her albums, the numbers are gonna be incredible. Like, that's just what it is.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And.

[Rory]

And back to another conversation we had when we were talking about like the Billboard change, like the bundling rules with after what like Travis was doing and that entire thing. I never saw anything wrong with that either. I understand why Nikki was complaining about it because she felt like she should have had the number one.

[Josh]

I get that.

[Rory]

But I know artists up to Taylor Swift are getting. They're getting manipulated by a label. You have to find other strategies to manipulate a system that's manipulating you. So, yeah, of course I'm going to try to bundle something. Of course I'm going to try to sell different versions of this. I'm getting over here anyways. This system is. Is not even designed to be an artist friendly system. I have to find new ways to do this right, to make. Not to say Taylor Swift needs more money, but you know, just in general, for any artist we. It's not. It's tricking a system that's tricking the artist that's why I was never mad when people did bundles. Travis. Hell yeah. You're a great designer with your merch. You're a great artist. Like, yeah, work the system that's trying to work y' all already, right? I'm never mad at that type of.

[Josh]

No, you can't be mad at that.

[Rory]

So I, that's why I even love that, like people care about vinyls. Again, just because I know that's gonna help so many artists. Cause people will stream their music, but also wanna buy a collectible of the same shit. Like to me, that's, that's cool for an artist.

[Josh]

It's part of being a consumer, part of being a fan of the creator, the artist. Again, I get how some people like to have that argument about what it does for the numbers and things like that. And they feel like the artist is trying to play the numbers game. And again, even if that is what the artist is trying to do, what is the problem there? You're in the music business. You're in the business of selling music, selling products. So I mean, it is what it is.

[Rory]

And let's not act like fans and consumers aren't like, I mean, at least the, the nerdier ones like myself aren't like collectors. Like if I'm a hardcore Taylor Swift fan.

[Josh]

You mean you're not.

[Rory]

Of course, of course I'm a Swifty.

[Josh]

Okay, I'm just checking.

[Rory]

I'm.

[Josh]

I'm part of this.

[Rory]

I'm part of the 6 million sales.

[Josh]

Yeah, you about to get your Swifty car revoked real quick.

[Rory]

If I'm a hardcore Taylor Swift fan and I collect, I'm like indiv. Yeah, I'll buy three different color versions because like I like to collect things. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

[Josh]

No.

[Rory]

Now if you're manipulating with, whether it be bots or behind the scenes, like with that, that's a whole separate conversation, but direct to consumer with a. A product. Nothing wrong with that.

[Josh]

Not at all.

[Rory]

Sell it off, they'll buy it, no worry.

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[Rory]

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[Dakota]

I live below a cult leader and I fear I've angered her.

[Rory]

Well wait a minute, Sophia. How do you know she's a cult leader? Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm Not Afraid of a Scary Story week on the.

[Dakota]

Okay, Storytime podcast, so you'll find out soon. This person writes, my neighbor has been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals and now my ceiling is collapsing. I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder.

[Rory]

I think they may be part of a cult. Hold up, Sophia. A real life cult. And what is a dirt ritual? No clue. But according to this person, contractors are.

[Dakota]

Tearing down the patio to find out what's going on with her ceiling and.

[Rory]

Her neighbors are not happy. Well, she needs to report them asap.

[Dakota]

She did, and now they've been confronting her in really creepy ways all the time.

[Rory]

So do we find out if this person survives their neighborhood cult or not?

[Dakota]

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[Rory]

It's interesting too that like rappers kind of get the, the rap, no pun intended, that they're the ones that are standoffish or won't work with each other. R B artists are that times 10. Like if you go with the Coles, Kendricks, Drake, Big Sean, Wale, like that class, they've all collaborated with each other. Now if you would go with your class, which I you Frank weekend party next door. Like yeah, R and B people, even with their graduating class, it never really with each other like that.

[Justin]

It's. It's a trip. It's a trip. I was just having this conversation too. I was, I was, we were talking about the difference in support also because I can hear that class in the music and you know, and it's like I can look at it and be like, damn, like I did my thing. We did our thing. Like, it's. It's in, like. I can hear how my approach is, like, really actually kind of affected. And it's. It's such a. It's a dope thing to see and to see everyone else, you know, see everyone else's influence and the shaping of the sound. I mean, we started alternative R and B. There was no category for that. You know, it was like, we did that.

[Rory]

Yeah. There was no blog R and B at the time.

[Justin]

No, we were the ones. Right?

[Rory]

It was.

[Justin]

And. And it is a shame to kind of. To think that we actually never really did. And I don't know what that. What that's about. I think about historically, you know, when soul music was in Detroit, when it was Philly or Detroit, there was a hub of. In a scene where writers and artists were working together. Stevie's all over all the Motown records. You know what I mean? Marvin Gaye was in a. You know, he was in a band.

[Rory]

He was.

[Justin]

They were all working together, travel together, travel together, on tours together. I still don't have an answer for why it doesn't happen.

[Rory]

I mean, I think with a lot of them, they had similar producers in common. Right. So they would be in sessions. Everyone was kind of running through the same system where. That's different now. And I think rappers also. It's a bit easier if we both walk into a studio and agree on a beat. Something can easily come out of that. Where I feel like some of the greater R B artists are so in tune with their production.

[Josh]

Right.

[Rory]

Like, they are producers as well. That can get weird. Like, if you and Frank walk into a studio, you're both going to have different directions as far as the production goes.

[Justin]

The approach or the sonic or the sonic.

[Rory]

Whereas, you know, a loop beat with a soul sample. I thought Cole and. And Wally would be like, this is great. Let's go.

[Justin]

Yeah, like. Like banger.

[Rory]

Agree.

[Justin]

That is gonna go crazy.

[Rory]

So I think maybe that's where it could derive from. Just on the production side, because everyone's so hands on.

[Justin]

Especially before, too. We're talking about songwriters. Yeah. So. And crafters. Like, I write and produce.

[Rory]

Like, I produced a dope of real music. Yeah.

[Justin]

I wrote that song. You know what I mean? I wrote sure thing. And they're not. It's not a verse also. It's also the approach. Like, a crazy verse from an emcee is going to be like. Can kill the whole song. Yeah, it's like, man, like. Let me think. Like Nicki Minaj verse on Monster. Like her verse won the song.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Justin]

You know what I'm saying?

[Rory]

Two of the greatest rappers of all time on that.

[Justin]

But it's like a verse can go crazy for an emcee. For singing.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Justin]

For. I don't know how, you know?

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Justin]

I think it can still. I think now it's evolved where we could approach it that way, and I think it'd be interesting to explore it like that. But I know in the past, it was about. We're singer songwriters, you know, and we're producers, so it was about the song. It was the whole thing. And artists, so I wonder if there's something interesting there, though, you know, it's like, what if we just approach it as verses, you know?

[Josh]

Have you ever had to meet any of your idols or people that you looked up to and were, like, disappointed and, like, heartbroken? Like, oh, this person is not really a good person, or, like, not what I thought it would be?

[Justin]

Definitely ones where I wish we would have got on. Like, we could have found some, like, okay, I fuck with you. Like, on a personal. Who did I. Not really.

[Rory]

You know what?

[Justin]

Honestly, I would almost say. I would wager that more it was, like, me. That it was you, that it was me. Oh, am I the problem?

[Josh]

I'm the widow.

[Justin]

It was.

[Rory]

This was the eight years of disappearing. We're gonna learn.

[Justin]

I needed to go dancing. I was the problem. It was me, Drama.

[Rory]

So what was the scenario that you felt that way, that you looked back like, you know what?

[Josh]

Damn. Like, I. That up. Yeah.

[Justin]

No, no, I'll say this. I'll say this. This is one I like. I wish it would. And it wasn't because anyone was. Was when we were doing. When I was doing Kaleidoscope Dream, I was here at. At Platinum Sound. I was over there for a long time when Platinum Sound was over on in Midtown. Shout out to Jerry, one legendary man. I mean, what happened in that studio in terms of just, like, the amount of fun and the songs and all that was incredible. And I. I was. We have finally had momentum, and Adorn was. Was having a moment, and we were finishing the album, and I got to work with Pharrell finally, and Pharrell came, and he spent some days with me, and. And I still look at those sessions, and I'm like, man, I really wish we would have found one. What we did doesn't fit the album. It doesn't. It, like, it would have never worked on Kaleidoscope Dream, and I'm. I'm. I'm clear about that. But Also, like, I just wish I would have locked in with him more because he's a hero of. And I always, like, just like, damn, I wish. Was it me? Was. I just like, too. And I was really adamant, too. I was like. I knew what I wanted, and I was really sure. I was like, I don't think it's a bad thing.

[Josh]

That has to be commendable and respectable, especially for Pharrell to see a young artist so fixed on who they are and what they want and the sound that they want to create. I know what you mean, though, because it's like, dan, this is for real.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Justin]

But I will say this, though. He did. He had. I mean, look, he's a visionary. And he came in and we cut this record that is a banger. I don't even. I can't find, like, the hard drive that has the session on. It is like. It's somewhere and, like, in storage somewhere.

[Josh]

But.

[Justin]

But it. It very much feels like a Prince record. But if I were to. If I. But me still, you know, but he came in with such a vision, and I don't think I was ready for that. I was like, how to clear a clear, different vision? And I've seen in subsequent interviews of his, they've asked some questions. Like. I mean, you could tell. I've thought about this. I've really thought about this.

[Josh]

Yeah. This has been haunting you.

[Justin]

Oh, bro. It's been on my belt.

[Josh]

Like, man, like, why did you get eight years right?

[Justin]

Like, why didn't we. I know. It was all that. Like, damn.

[Rory]

It didn't have. If Kaleidoscope Dreams wasn't a classic, I'd say this should keep you up at night.

[Josh]

But you got it right with Kaleidoscope Dreams.

[Rory]

But would that have worked maybe more on Wild Part? Because, I mean, that was kind of the stereotypical fan perspective of, like, all right, is he about to do his. His Prince thing?

[Justin]

He's going, yeah. He's going, no, no. I. I think, on the contrary, this was. This. I don't even know where this record would have fit, but I do think it would have probably at the time, it probably would have hit. I think he was right.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And I think based on what. What fans wanted, what's known about me and my taste and who I'm drawing from, my inspirations and whatnot, it would have made a lot of sense. And the record was a great record, but I just wanted to go a different direction.

[Rory]

And he spoke about it in interviews.

[Justin]

As well, that no record specific talked about other. He's talking about other situations where he's been in a room and he's like, you know, not everybody's ready to hear my vision. And the ones that do have listened, you know, he's like, more often than not, you know, I've had great moments with them, and he. He didn't.

[Josh]

He's talking about you.

[Rory]

Yeah. You were watching YouTube in your kitchen. Like, that's about me. This is about me.

[Josh]

And even if it's not, you're gonna feel like that. Like, that's about me.

[Rory]

Definitely.

[Justin]

Yeah. No, no, he definitely wasn't. And I think it might have been an interview before I. Even before I worked with him, but. But I think he was, like, referring to, like, maybe Justin or something at the time. And he's like, you know, not every time I go in and they're ready to hear what I. What I'm seeing, but when they trust me to just do the thing is, like, that's where. That's how we get this and that. And I think he was talking about Justin and whatnot. He might have mentioned Kendrick or something in it, but that is one of those ones where it wasn't either of us. It just didn't happen. And I always look at it. I'm like, fuck, man. I really wish it would happen again.

[Rory]

I think that speaks more to greatness and your vision. Like, for example, we definitely. We were talking when Jid dropped his record with Eminem and was like, this isn't on the album. And it made me go, oh, this Jid album has to be great. That he's so stuck on his vision. Yeah. That this Eminem is not. Not what I'm trying to do with a project. It made me more excited about it.

[Justin]

Valid.

[Rory]

Because to just leave off a Eminem verse, your album is like, you have a vision.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Rory]

The same way of like, damn. Am I really about to just leave a Pharrell session and be like, nah.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Rory]

The.

[Justin]

We did a couple other ones, and I've been meaning to hit him because he was telling me earlier that I should be leaning into just being Latino. And, like, he's like, bro, who can do it? He was definitely, like. He was coaching, you know, he was like. And I wasn't in the place at the time also. I. I didn't feel like I had done the work to feel Doing music in Spanish felt organic.

[Rory]

It just.

[Justin]

It was too up. Too big of a leap at the time. But he's like. He's like a whole. I mean, eight, maybe 10 years actually, because after my sessions for Kaleidoscope Dream, we worked in, like, Nashville during, like, Bonnaroo or some shit like that. And he was like, bro, you gotta get on your Latin shit hard. And he cooked up some. Some like, you know those rhythms.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And I just wasn't ready for it.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Justin]

But then fast forward eight years later, this. On this album, Kyle's like, I'm definitely intro, am I? Yeah, yeah. I'm in it. And I've been waiting for. For the time when I see him. And I'm like, you were right, bro. I just wasn't ready.

[Rory]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin]

Because this album definitely got no 100 deep.

[Rory]

So you still have that loaded up in your MPC the you cooked up in that shit.

[Justin]

I'm like, where is that.

[Rory]

Storage up?

[Josh]

Like, I gotta find this hard drive. And we're gonna get into that. We're gonna get into the snitches and the rats, everybody else.

[Dakota]

What happened?

[Josh]

What happened? Oh, you just open your phone.

[Dakota]

I seen you guys send something to the group, chat about the NBA, but I don't know, I'm just a girl. I don't know what's going on.

[Josh]

The NBA, no bets allowed. It's about to be some no bets allowed. Yeah, bets a lot, I'm telling you. But I always listen, bro, when they made gambling legal and they even started having, like, you know, the logos, which we love, with the logos on, like, uniforms. And, you know, if you watching the game of tv, they even have it where they could put the logo on the court that's not really on the court. Only people on TV could see it. Like, they started doing shit like that. You gotta know that the guys behind these things are in business together. You have to. Which means now the people that are a part of it, they're going to be approached with conversations and opportunities to make a little extra money on the side. If, you know, if you're a coach, if you're a player, if you can make an extra 6,7 million that nobody knows about, you probably going to take that opportunity for sure. And lo and behold, today we open our phone. But this is just a trickle now, because if you remember, Gilbert Arenas was arrested a few months ago by the FBI for running illegal poker games and things like that. Now, I'm not calling Gilbert a snitch, but he did say out his mouth, he didn't snitch yet, but I will. Those are Gilbert words. If I'm Josh, maybe you can pull it up. I believe verbatim he said, I didn't Snitch yet. I didn't cooperate, but I will. So now today, we have Damon Jones being arrested. We have Chauncey Billups being arrested. We have Terry Rozier, whose situation is separate, but it's still a gambling arrest as well.

[Rory]

Nah, man.

[Josh]

How many.

[Rory]

Gilbert was at those court steps smiling ear to ear when he left his indictment.

[Josh]

Yeah. Because Gilbert is probably like, listen, I'm not the big fish. I know what y' all want here. Y' all want. Y' all want the big guy. That's not me. Yeah, I was gambling. I was running poker games. You know, it wasn't. I owned the house. But, you know. And this is what Gilbert said. He won't be worried. Good luck in court. I'm pretty sure I ain't gonna be there when it start. When it's starting to go. Cause, yeah, I'm snitching now. Gilbert's words, they had said this.

[Rory]

This investigation has been going on for quite some time.

[Josh]

Yeah. August Gilbert got arrested, arrested. It was more investigation. He put it on himself. He said, I'm not gonna be there. Pull it up again, Josh. I don't want to misquote the great Gilbert Arenas. He said, I'm not gonna be there when it starts going. When it's starting to go. Cause I'm snitching. That's what he said. I'm pretty sure I ain't gonna be there when it's starting to go. It's going. Rory, we got the text, the messages today because, yeah, I'm snitching. You can see that at the 9 minute, 20 second mark, if you want. I am not calling Gilbert Arenas a snitch. Gilbert Arenas said himself that he is snitching.

[Rory]

Yes.

[Josh]

There you go.

[Rory]

Do you think that's why the FBI called this operation Nothing But Net?

[Josh]

Have you ever seen Gilbert shot.

[Rory]

Have you ever seen Gilbert joke. I'm reading it.

[Josh]

Have you ever seen Gilbert shoot the ball? Pure shooter, barely touch the rim. Nothing but Operation Nothing but Net has commenced, and you niggas is going to jail. Adam Silver, I'm pretty sure they're gonna be knocking on your door soon, fam.

[Rory]

I. Of course, the one year that it. It might be the Knicks turn to finally go all the way. I think we're gonna get a lockout. Not by the players, by the FBI. In a month like this, could get really, really, really bad for the game.

[Josh]

Oh, it's gonna keep so current. NBA play. Current and former NBA players and coaches Chauncey Billups, Terry Rosie and Damon Jones have Been arrested. This was an illegal gambling and sports rigging operation that spanned years. So this ain't something that they just started investigating and, you know, they've been looking at this.

[Rory]

Gilbert just connected the dots.

[Josh]

Well, he was the first chip that they grabbed that we know of. That was the public figure that we would know years. Across 11 states in total, 30 individuals have been arrested, 13 mafia members. The case involves La Costa Nostra. Charges include illegal gambling, wire fraud, and extortion. There are two separate indictments. The defendants leverage their connections to place prop bets based on confidential insider information, winning tens of thousands of dollars per bet. Mm.

[Rory]

There was. There was another article, and it wasn't like the greatest source, but one of the. Damon Jones they say in the paperwork was talking about LeBron's injury. Like LeBron is. Not that LeBron did anything wrong, but apparently he's in the paperwork that Damon Jones was just letting. Letting the Mob know about LeBron's ankle.

[Josh]

Yeah, that's inside information. It's all this and then you go. The FBI says the NBA player Terry Rozier told the defendants that he was going to leave a game early on March 23, 2023, with an injury. The defendants then placed more than 200,000 of wages on the unders for his prop bets. With Rosier leaving the game after nine minutes, those bets paid out tens of thousands of dollars in profits. And the defendants and Rosier counted the money at his house.

[Rory]

Yo, did you see.

[Josh]

Did you see the movie? Did you see where Scorsese at? Scorsese is having a ball reading all of this. Yeah, get the red camera, Scorsese, because this is a movie.

[Rory]

Charlotte Hornets, Trailblazers, Lakers and Raptors are all involved with it. I mean, did you see the compilation of cherry throwing games?

[Josh]

Listen, man, I'm not trying to start nothing, but I will say, the other day during the Lakers game, LeBron looked very, very. I don't know, he had this look on his face the whole time on the bench. He wasn't even looking at the game. He was looking straight into the crowd at the Bonannos. Yeah, like. I don't know, man. I. I think that, you know, a lot of players know what's happening, what's going on behind the scenes, and we joking and. And it having last. Rory. But this is going to get. I mean, it already is, but this is going to get very.

[Rory]

Oh, yeah, no, this is. Everyone's fucked on this.

[Josh]

Yeah, this is going to get serious.

[Rory]

And I mean, we was joking about the. The Gilbert thing, but if you don't think Chauncey Billups and the rest of them are going to have the same mentality. Like, these aren't, like, street guys that have a code of, like, they're gonna tell everything. This is gonna continue to get worse. Yeah, more names gonna come out. But, I mean, down to the point shaving. Chauncey Billups was involved with the mob with the shuffling machines that. Red cards in the deck. And then they relayed the information to an off site operator that they called the quarterback, then sent the information to someone at the table. This is why I never, like, fucked with gambling spots like that. Like the underground gambling spot, like, in the house. Like, there's no way this is not rigged somehow. Already at the casino, you're fucked. But there's no regulation here. They got trust the mob.

[Josh]

This is interesting because this is. All right, this is the NBA we talking about. I feel like it's easier to kind of throw games in other sports, like, say, baseball. Like, it's easier for me as a hitter to go up there and just keep whiffing at fucking, like, bad pitches.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Josh]

Like, on the basketball court, like, if I'm just turning that shit over, dribbling that shit off my foot, like, it's like, all right, bro. Like, what the fuck is he doing? And they pulled up Rozier's highlights or what they think one game that he was throwing, that was the most obvious shit. That was the most. That's what I'm saying in basketball, it's a little more noticeable. In baseball if I'm a hitter, and I'm just like, yo, I'm gonna go over four tonight. That's. That's hard for y' all to pick up on. I could just be up there just swinging that. And it's like, well, I'm just having an off night. I'm just not hitting the ball. But look at Rosie. He throwing that. Look at this. Watch this, watch this. This one is crazy.

[Rory]

This is the one. He starts running back before he even threw the pass.

[Dakota]

Yo, I'm crying.

[Rory]

He was so happy when that went.

[Josh]

Look at this. That pass was crazy.

[Rory]

But I feel like you could at least purposely miss a lot of shots and it wouldn't look that crazy. This is just blatant. This is crazy.

[Josh]

Yo, that just up there doing whatever. Take me through there, take me through there.

[Rory]

He could play 2K.

[Josh]

So much money. He like, man, fuck this basketball.

[Rory]

The hilarious part was the come off, the announcers were like, rough night for Terry. Anytime I was like, this is the most obvious Thing ever.

[Josh]

Yeah, this is. This is going to get bad. Obviously, the FBI is still investigating. We just got to wait and see who else, man. I think more players are going to be called into that room and more players are going to cooperate. Yeah, but this is going to get bad again. This doesn't surprise me. Once gambling became legal, I mean, one of the first things I thought was, all right, so now, you know, it's just more opportunity for players to throw games, be involved in it. You know, me and my friends used to joke all the time, like, I got a lot of friends that played in the NBA. They're like, yo, why don't you just call him and tell him not to get six rebounds tonight? I'm like, yo, y' all joking? But that's how easy and simple it really is. Yeah, like, yo, bro, listen, man, just go. Just don't get six rebounds tonight. You can do everything else. Don't grab six boards. I'm gonna get this quick, 10, 20K. We good. This is the result of things like that.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And, you know, unfortunately, now a lot of players are gonna have to answer to this. A lot of, you know, coaches, GMs. I'm sure it's gonna be. It's gonna be a lot of people like that. We start seeing getting arrested and being questioned behind this whole thing. I think this is just the start of it.

[Rory]

I mean, but even with that, like, I assume how they. I'm just guessing how they even got involved with the mob was they had some type of gambling debt with them. Cause to your point, why wouldn't. Because gambling is legal now. Why wouldn't you just go off the parlays that you could easily control rather than with. With the mob to do this?

[Josh]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Rory]

Like that. That, to me, is the craziest part. Like, they must have been so deep in debt that they were doing it this way. Because we all assume that there's plenty of players that do exactly what you just said. But it's.

[Josh]

Sure.

[Rory]

But it's through legal, even though that's illegal legal gambling off those parlays. But this, like, how you. How you even get involved with this? If you're Chauncey Billups as a coach.

[Josh]

You know, you take a guy out if you see he's approaching.

[Rory]

No, I'm saying to even get in. In bed with or owe people this type of stuff, like throwing games, because.

[Josh]

You owe them underground gambling spots, man, y' all gambling at the house. You know, I might. I might have lost a million. I'm like, Shit, I need some of that back. All right, well, tomorrow go out there and don't let him. Don't let your point guard score 20 tomorrow, pull him out the game. It's that simple. It starts going trickling to that. And now you in bed with them. Now it's like, all right, now you part of it.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And here comes the FBI investigation years later, you thinking it was just over with. It was just that one time. Nah, man. All of this is going to be uncovered. So that's what I'm saying. This is something that I think is going to a lot of players. I'm not going to lie. Seeing Chauncey Billups involved with this, kind of like I was surprised to see his name. Yeah, he wasn't somebody I expected to be involved at all, but here we are.

[Rory]

Yeah, there's a lot of NBA players stepping on their phones and erasing their iclouds. Currently stepping on their phones.

[Dakota]

It's funny as fuck.

[Josh]

Well, we got ways to see what else. Gilbert. You know, what other verses Gilbert laid out.

[Rory]

Gilbert the Bull.

[Josh]

I mean, Gilbert might be in the booth right now, you know, giving him a 16, letting them know what happened was really going on. Listen, again, this is Gilbert saying he would do this. I'm not putting this on Gilbert Arenas. He said he was. He would snitch, not me.

[Rory]

I mean, what was the. Can we look up the referee that was caught? Tim. Tim Donnie, if I remember correctly.

[Josh]

What's his Twitter?

[Rory]

Didn't he.

[Josh]

Let's see what he's talking about today.

[Rory]

Didn't he say in an interview that he believed every single ref was involved with some form of gambling or point shaving decisions? Every ref in the NBA. And we just skipped over that. Listen, man, every ref in the NBA, which is. I mean, that's kind of nuts, but I'm sure it's a large majority. No, he was straight up saying that they. They're all involved. Like, he's not the only one here.

[Josh]

Yeah, he's not. He's definitely not the only one. You can't be the only one in a league that big with that many games on however many nights. You not the only one, bro. Yeah, there's no way. You're definitely not the only one.

[Rory]

No, he.

[Josh]

Steve Javi. Look, they got a picture of Steve Javi up there. But that's not. But listen, man, we go back to. You got players like Chris Paul who say every time Steve Jarvi ref one of his games. Scott Foster. I'm sorry, Scott Foster. I didn't put that on Steve Jarvey, Scott Foster, Chris Paul said that. He said, yo, every time he refs one of my games, it's like I get thrown out. I get this, I get that. So you got it. Sounds crazy, but even things like that affect a bet. A player getting ejected, picking up two quick technical fouls, picking up quick personal fouls. Gotta sit out the whole first half. Like we sit here and we just watch games and thinking like, yo, the ref just made a bad call. Okay, but why did he make that bad call? That could be a loaded call. That could be a million dollar bad call he just made.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Josh]

You know what I'm saying? We don't think about it like that, but essentially that's exactly what all of this is gonna end up showing us. Like little things like that that kind of dictate the game and affect the game in whatever way. While it looks little to us, a turnover doesn't look that bad to us in the third quarter. Yeah, but at the end of the night, somebody had a bet placed on that. And over and under and the score and the money line and things like all of those little things add up to a bigger picture. And this is part of the bigger picture.

[Rory]

Ma, I know you're thinking about upgrading to an all new iPhone 17 Pro designed to be the best and most powerful iPhone ever.

[Josh]

You're my thoughts again.

[Rory]

Yeah, listen, man, weeks you've been thinking about this, but are you also thinking about the traffic on the way there?

[Josh]

I think about that all the time.

[Rory]

Yes. You in traffic has always been a thing.

[Josh]

Oh my God.

[Rory]

Of fact. That's one of your best lives.

[Josh]

Absolutely.

[Rory]

Well, good news mall. When you order a new phone online with Boost mobile to send an expert right to our office, they'll set up your whole iPhone 17 with Boost Mobile within minutes. No hassle whatsoever.

[Josh]

Visit boostmobile.com to get started. Delivery available for select devices [e-mail] terms apply.

[Rory]

And I mean, how far does the, the rabbit hole go with the gambling thing? Because outside of like the regular sports parlay stuff and that, they got sites that say how many times Taylor Swift is going to be shown in the booth at a Kansas City Chiefs game? Like there's an over under for that. And at what point if you are the cameraman at an NFL game, man, like when the producer sees all the screens and was just like one more time it. Man, listen, was it like six times?

[Josh]

Listen, we joking and talking.

[Rory]

Two more in the second quarter.

[Josh]

Listen, we joking and talking.

[Rory]

But that's, that's real because they come up with the. The craziest things on those sites.

[Josh]

That's real.

[Rory]

As far as that goes.

[Josh]

Like something like that. I'm not. Listen. That doesn't affect the game on the field. So something like that is like, you know, that's just like a cameraman, you know, trying to just make a little whatever on field. Anything that interrupts the game or disturbs the game, like the integrity of the game. Back to your question of should you be kicked out of the hall of Fame if you're in. I think so. I think if you've done anything to jeopardize the integrity of the sport, to jeopardize the outcome of any game, that, whether you were involved in it or not, just the sport, I think that that is something to look at and be like, that might get you kicked out of the hall of Fame.

[Rory]

I. I agree with you. But I do feel like Pete Rose should be in the hall of Fame because he bet on himself. Like, he wasn't betting against the Reds.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Rory]

Where he could really jeopardize. He. He was confident. His team was, like, putting this down.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Rory]

So to me, that's fine. If you want to bet on yourself, I think that should be cool. But against yourself. Yeah.

[Josh]

But bet on yourself to perform or underperform because heroes bet on the Reds to win. Okay. Yeah.

[Rory]

Which to me is cool. I mean, I get it. You. You can't have a gray area there. If you gamble, you gamble, you out.

[Josh]

I get that.

[Rory]

But with gambling being legal now and those rules being a little gray, I. I think only if you bet to affect the game negatively. Like if you throw. If you're throwing a game. Yeah. Get the out of the hall of Fame. But where you draw the line with the steroid thing? Because I think Barry Bond should be in there. To me, that's affecting the game.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Rory]

No, it is, but it's still. You still should be in the hall of Fame. I don't think there should be an asterisk there.

[Josh]

But it has to be an asterisk because the playing field is not. Even if I'm on steroids and my opponents aren't, I already have an advantage. So that's where it kind of gets tricky. Because it's like, all right, if we can all take steroids, then cool. Cause it evens the field. But now when you get in the field, in the territory of. Okay, the playing field is. I have an advantage over all of my opponents. That's cheating.

[Rory]

Yeah. But I think everyone was taking steroids.

[Josh]

At that time I'm not gonna say everybody, but I do think a lot of people were.

[Rory]

Yeah. And I only bring up that point to this gambling shit. Cause if we end up finding out that for the past 20 years every player has been involved, then I don't think anyone should be kicked out.

[Josh]

The whole thing.

[Rory]

Everyone's doing it. That. That was the game at that time.

[Josh]

I know one thing. They better not put Michael Jeffrey Jordan and none of them investigations. I don't want to hear about Mike. Don't tell me Mike was.

[Rory]

Mike doesn't. Everyone knows Mike doesn't gamble. Huh?

[Josh]

He didn't serve what he served his.

[Rory]

Time for in AAA baseball. He did six months with the White Sox.

[Josh]

Mike was not gambling on no NBA game. Ooh. He's gambling to win. Because that's all.

[Dakota]

Fuck.

[Josh]

He did this thing.

[Rory]

Everyone knows that.

[Josh]

That's all he did was win.

[Rory]

Everyone knows that Mike is a degenerate gambler. But Mike is also the biggest competitor of all time. Mike would never ever bet against himself.

[Josh]

No.

[Rory]

So I think Mike bet. I think Mike bet on himself for sure. There's no way he did not put money down on his own games for sure.

[Josh]

I don't think so, man. I think he's such a big. That would have came out. We would have been found out about that.

[Rory]

Yeah.

[Dakota]

That.

[Rory]

That. Why do you think that he.

[Josh]

No, no, no. That was.

[Rory]

He changed his number. No, no, no, no.

[Josh]

That was. That was the conspiracy I'm talking about. It would have come out as a fact that he bet on bulls games already by now. He's been retired for almost 30 years.

[Rory]

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[Josh]

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[Rory]

Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[Josh]

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[Dakota]

I live below a cult leader and I fear I've angered her.

[Rory]

Wait a minute, Sophia, how do you know she's a cult leader?

[Dakota]

Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid.

[Rory]

Of a scary Story week on the.

[Dakota]

OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon.

[Rory]

This person writes, my neighbor has been.

[Dakota]

Blasting music every day and doing dirt.

[Rory]

Rituals and now my ceiling is collapsing.

[Dakota]

I tried to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think think they might be part of a cult.

[Rory]

Hold up a real life cult? And what is a dirt ritual?

[Dakota]

No clue, Dakota.

[Justin]

Find out how it ends.

[Dakota]

Listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.