Newt’s World – Episode 910: The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy

Release Date: November 16, 2025
Host: Newt Gingrich
Guests: Gary Shapley and Joseph Ziegler (IRS Special Agents, whistleblowers, authors)

Episode Overview

This episode digs into the inside story of two IRS whistleblowers, Gary Shapley and Joseph Ziegler, who risked their careers and reputations to expose what they describe as political interference, stonewalling, and cover-ups in the federal investigation of Hunter Biden. Their efforts, detailed in their new book The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy, led to a conviction, presidential pardons, and a national conversation about systemic accountability, government integrity, and the role of courageous individuals within the bureaucracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Backgrounds and Origins of the Case

• Joseph Ziegler (03:53):

  • Grew up in Ohio; moved from private sector (Ernst & Young) to IRS in 2010.
  • Joined the IRS International Tax and Financial Crimes Group.
  • Discovered Hunter Biden’s name in routine bank reports tied to a foreign social media company, linking to unreported income, unpaid taxes, unusual asset transfers (such as a rare diamond), and evidence of potential tax evasion.
  • Quote:
    “It was facts of the case evidence that was in front of me... reviewing all the information, it really started become apparent that all the different things that Hunter was involved in, from Ukraine to Romania to China, I mean, what it also said to me... a lot of the money that he was making just didn’t make any sense.” [07:06]

• Gary Shapley (05:45):

  • Moved from AmeriCorps and NSA IG to IRS Criminal Investigations in 2009.
  • Extensive experience with high-profile, international tax evasion cases (e.g., Credit Suisse, HSBC, UBS).
  • Became Ziegler’s supervisor as manager of International Tax and Financial Crimes Group and inherited the Hunter Biden case.

2. Early Findings and Escalation

• The investigation revealed Hunter Biden failed to file tax returns for multiple years, with millions in unreported income (notably from Burisma, the Ukrainian energy firm).

• The agents emphasized the willfulness (mens rea) required to pursue criminal, not just civil, tax charges (08:45).

• Quote:
  “That’s what elevates something from being a civil issue to being criminal and into our hands. And that’s part of what we have to look at.” — Joseph Ziegler [08:45]

3. Obstacles and DOJ Interference

• DOJ Resistance:

  • Both agents spoke about repeated “preferential treatment” and obstruction from the Department of Justice, including blocking investigative steps, narrowing search warrant targets, and letting statutes of limitations expire for critical years (11:05).
  • DOJ attempted to move toward a non-prosecution agreement; plea bargains were thrown out only after Congressional attention and the whistleblowers’ testimony.

• Retaliation:

  • The agents faced isolation, loss of support, and efforts to limit their investigative actions within their own agencies.
  • Quote:
    “...there were multiple points to where we were isolated. A lot of the things that we were trying to do were just not getting approved. Flat out, not getting approved.” — Joseph Ziegler [13:07]

4. Becoming Whistleblowers: Risks and Repercussions

• Both sought legal counsel with Empower Oversight to navigate their whistleblower roles.
• The agents describe a split in institutional support: covert encouragement from colleagues vs. resistance from leadership.
• Quote:
  “Covertly, right Overtly. No one would say anything, no one would providing support... just being isolated and people fearing to come out and support us.” — Gary Shapley [14:45]

5. Systemic Problems or Anomaly?

• Asked if this case was unique or reflective of a broader pattern, both expressed hope it was an anomaly, but noted concern about entrenched bureaucrats wielding outsized influence (17:49, 27:59).

• Quote:
  “So are there people that do the wrong things, that don’t get caught? Yeah, that happens every day. But if they come across my desk... they’ll be treated the same as any other person.” — Gary Shapley [17:49]

6. Whistleblower Protections and Congressional Response

• Praised Senator Grassley as “the patron saint of whistleblowers” (18:45), but called for stronger, proactive protections against retaliation.
• Proceeds from their book are designated for a nonprofit supporting whistleblowers.
• Quote:
  “... the process and procedures of whistleblowers are that you blow the whistle and then if you’re retaliated against or you’re fired, you’re retaliated against and you’re fired. And the law doesn’t allow for those proactive protections...” — Gary Shapley [18:45]

7. The Laptop, Media, and Suppression

• Both agents confirm they authenticated Hunter Biden’s laptop early in the investigation, with its contents verified through legal channels and later accepted as evidence in the gun trial (31:39–34:12).
• Decried both government and media efforts to suppress or discredit the laptop story, specifically referencing the “disinformation” letter from 51 intelligence officials.
• Ziegler noted significant left-leaning media ignored their whistleblower story despite efforts at bipartisan communications.

8. Impact of Pardons and Shifting Narratives

• President Biden issued not just a pardon for Hunter but blanket pardons for family members, directly impacting public perception.
• The agents describe their truth-telling as forcing narrative shifts from the administration.
• Quote:
  “...what I found was very comical that we could have, by us speaking the truth, that the presidency of the United States had to change their narrative continually throughout the four years of his presidency.” — Joseph Ziegler [36:16]

9. Optimism, American Ideals, and Lasting Lessons

• Gingrich and guests reflect on the tradition of individual courage in the American system—invoking Emerson’s “one man in the truth is a majority.”
• Both Ziegler and Shapley remain optimistic, seeing their actions as part of a tradition that helps hold government accountable, even if it comes at great personal cost (25:06, 29:50).
• Quote:
  “I probably took 10 years off my life, if not more, with the stress that happened. But ... I would do it again if I had to. And I’m optimistic that we can turn this around.” — Gary Shapley [25:06]
  “...our forefathers created a system that was meant to move and to be flexible and to change and to take on new, new opinions and ideas. And it’s all driven by the people, right?” — Gary Shapley [29:50]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We were the best witnesses, whistleblowers that they have ever had, testified in front of their committees. Everything we said stood up.”
  — Joseph Ziegler [13:44]

• On DOJ’s preference for optics over substance:
  “I don’t know anywhere in the Department of Justice manual where it says optics should play into how you move forward with an investigation or how you make decisions.” — Joseph Ziegler [21:59]

• On whistleblower impact:
  “If we didn’t come forward, the American people wouldn’t know it. We wouldn’t learn the lessons that we learned to try to create a better process and system.” — Gary Shapley [37:38]

Key Segment Timestamps

• [03:53] Joseph Ziegler’s background and discovery of Hunter Biden’s case
• [05:45] Gary Shapley’s path to IRS Criminal Investigations
• [07:52] Early criminal findings: Unfiled tax returns and Burisma income
• [11:05] DOJ interference, whistleblower turning point
• [13:07] Workplace retaliation and legal strategy
• [14:45] Internal split within the IRS post-testimony
• [18:45] Current state and needed reforms for whistleblower protections
• [27:59] Systemic problem or one-off anomaly?
• [31:39] Laptop authentication, media, and suppression
• [36:16] The effect and symbolism of the presidential pardon
• [38:19] Final reflections on American ideals and personal risk

Tone and Final Reflections

The conversation is a mix of candid frustration, optimism, and patriotic reflection. Both Shapley and Ziegler repeatedly emphasize their commitment to the rule of law, equal treatment, and the capacity for individual action inside large systems to enforce accountability. Gingrich frames their struggle as emblematic of American ideals—courage, truth-telling, and the notion that the system can be corrected from within through moral resolve and democratic oversight.

Recommended for:

• Listeners interested in government accountability, whistleblower experiences, high-profile investigations, and the tension between politics and justice.

Read their story in full:
The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy — with all proceeds supporting future whistleblowers.