Episode 948: ‘Moneyball’ for Politics

Summary

Newt’s World – Episode 948: ‘Moneyball’ for Politics
Host: Newt Gingrich
Guest: John Hart, CEO of Open the Books
Release Date: February 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how the principles of “Moneyball”—using deep data analysis to inform decisions—can revolutionize government accountability and citizen engagement. Host Newt Gingrich speaks with John Hart, CEO of Open the Books, about harnessing artificial intelligence and the world’s largest private database of government spending to bring transparency and real-time insights to every American. The conversation delves into the partnership between Open the Books and Citizen Portal, the potential for AI-powered “surveillance citizenry,” and how pattern recognition in government data might enable a new era of democratic oversight and fiscal responsibility.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Scale and Vision of Open the Books

• Open the Books holds over 10 billion data points, tracking federal, state, and local government spending, salaries, and pensions.
• Mission: “Capture every dime and put it online in as close to real time as possible.” (04:00)
• Collaboration: Open the Books is partnering with Paul Allen’s Citizen Portal to pair massive datasets with AI and create tools for public scrutiny.

Notable Quote

“For the first time, taxpayers can compare what politicians say with what they do and spend—all in one place. This is an amazing achievement.” – Newt Gingrich (03:50)

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Transparency & Pattern Recognition as the Cure for Fraud

• Recent fraud scandals (e.g., $1B in MN) are seen as symptoms of too much centralized power and insufficient transparency.
• Hart’s Analogy: Comparing the advent of AI in public scrutiny to Galileo’s telescope:

  “In 1609, Galileo... discovered there are these bodies orbiting. That changed civilization. AI enables us to recognize patterns... bring clean data and insights to the electorate, and it will revitalize citizen engagement.” – John Hart (06:00)

The Aqueduct Project

• Named for ancient Roman engineering, this effort aims to deliver “clean data” that empowers and informs.
• "If we can bring clean data and clear insights to the electorate, it will revitalize and rejuvenate citizen engagement like nothing in our lifetime." – John Hart (06:09)

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Surveillance Citizenry: Flipping the Script on Power

• Concept: Rather than AI enabling a “surveillance state,” Hart envisions “a surveillance citizenry,” where citizens wield advanced tools to hold government accountable.
• Use Case: At a town hall, a citizen could instantly pull up a politician’s voting history and statements on their device.

  “We’re trying to flip the script... give you the tools you need to become a super intelligent citizen.” – John Hart (07:21)

• Tech Demystified: AI requires three things: big data, algorithms, and processing power. “Big data is like enriched uranium; it could be used for peaceful or destructive purposes.” (16:30)

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From Google to Real-Time Government Transparency

• Hart helped create USASpending.gov in the 2000s, aiming for all government spending to be available and searchable online.
  • Quote: “Transparency is like the oxygen in the public square. We can’t speak and debate if we can’t breathe.” (09:03)
• The vision: Merge first principles of open government with modern technology, and make real-time transparency the new norm.

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Real-World Applications and Implications

• AI vs. CBO: Hart critiques the Congressional Budget Office as a “black box,” arguing AI will enable the public, not just bureaucrats, to model budget impacts.
  • "We can run circles around CBO in a very short period of time by building this technology..." (17:01)
• Case Example – Education Data:
  • Open the Books correlated overhead spending with student achievement in 12,500 school districts—finding a slight negative correlation.
  • “No one has looked at 12,500 school districts. As we build these arguments and data sets, it’s going to again create super intelligent citizens.” (21:23)

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The AlphaFold Analogy – AI for Public Policy

• Hart likens their AI project (“Aqueduct”) to AlphaFold in biology:
  • “AlphaFold did 50,000 years of research in one year. What we’re talking about with Aqueduct... it’s like AlphaFold for public policy.” (19:08)
  • By simulating policy scenarios, “it’s like a time machine—simulate trillions of future realities and get a probability curve for the impact.” (29:57)

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Ensuring Adoption & Trust

• Coalition Building: Diverse advisory committee to ensure AI-powered transparency tools are politically neutral and trusted.
  • “With AI, getting the coalition right is as important as getting the technology right. If people don’t trust the technology, they’re never going to use it.” (32:10)
• Core Principle: “If you care about fraud, there’s no constituency for fraud except the fraudster.” Both left and right should unite for radical transparency. (34:45)

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The Future Relationship Between Citizens and Government

• Hart envisions a new “renaissance moment,” where transparency and citizen engagement define the social contract.
  • “I see this tool as one of the most important ways to address our debt burden, enable economic growth... You cannot have accountability without visibility.” (36:01)
  • Predicts Open the Books will have a global impact on government transparency in the coming years.

  “First in the US, but then around the world.” – Newt Gingrich (37:59)

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Selected Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On Surveillance Citizenry:

  “We’re trying to flip the script and... give you the tools you need to become a super intelligent citizen.” – John Hart (07:21)

• On Transparency:

  “Transparency is like the oxygen in the public square. We can’t speak and debate if we can’t breathe.” – John Hart (09:03)

• AI as Policy Game-Changer:

  “It’s like AlphaFold for public policy... looking at all the relationships between the data to enable you to do pattern recognition and pattern prediction.” – John Hart (19:10)

• Optimistic Outlook:

  “We’re at the most important renaissance point in hundreds, if not thousands, of years... You cannot have accountability without visibility.” – John Hart (36:01)

• On Coalition and Trust:

  “Getting the coalition right is as important as getting the technology right. If people don’t trust the technology, they’re never going to use it.” – John Hart (32:10)

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Important Timestamps

• 04:00: Gingrich introduces Open the Books and new partnership for AI-powered transparency
• 05:06–07:06: How fraud occurs and how AI/technology can prevent it
• 07:15–08:21: Concept of “surveillance citizenry” and empowering individuals
• 08:41–11:19: The journey of bringing government transparency online; origins of USASpending.gov
• 16:05–19:10: Moneyball analogy, merging data sets, pattern recognition, AlphaFold comparison
• 20:53–22:51: Data-driven insights: mass transit, school district spending correlations
• 23:20–26:27: Story behind the partnership with Citizen Portal and vision for the future
• 29:50–33:40: Power and promise of AI and quantum computing, building trust and transparency
• 35:35–37:59: Hart’s vision: a renaissance in citizen power, the global potential for impact

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Episode Conclusion

Gingrich and Hart close on the note that real-time, citizen-driven analysis of government spending is both feasible and urgent. The technology is here; achieving the social and political will for maximum transparency will define the future of democracy. Listeners are encouraged to follow Open the Books’ developments and anticipate further revolutionary advances in holding government accountable.

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Find out more:

• openthebooks.com
• Open the Books Substack

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Transcript

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[B]

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[D]

On this episode of Newts World. Open the Books operates the largest private database of public spending ever in history. 10 billion points of data that includes all federal salaries, line by line spending by the feds, all 50 state checkbooks, including their own line by line spending each year, plus millions of state level salaries and pension funds, and spending across more than 17,000 municipalities. Their goal is to capture every dime and put it online in as close to real time as possible. Their database is open to journalists, researchers, activists, public officials, and most importantly, every American taxpayer. Now Open the Books is joining forces with Citizen Portal to create a first of its kind tool. Combining the largest private database of government spending with artificial intelligence. The new database has indexed over a million hours or public official remarks and meetings. For the first time, taxpayers can compare what politicians say with what they do and spend all in one place. This is an amazing achievement and that's why I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, John Hart, the CEO of Open the Books. John, welcome and thank you for joining me on newts world.

[A]

Well, Mr. Speaker, it is an honor and a privilege. Thank you for taking the time to have this conversation.

[D]

Well, you know, this seems to be a remarkable period for talking about fraud and misspending and corruption. You know, recent federal investigations uncovered over a billion dollars in fraud across several Minnesota schemes with nearly 100 people already charged. From your perspective, how does something of that scale actually happen? How do you get to a point where a state government manages to spend a billion dollars on fraud?

[A]

I think it happens because we've lost touch of our founding principles and our first principles and our founders were obsessively on what I view as the right question, which is what is the optimal relationship between the individual and the state? And so when too much power is consolidated in a central government, then fraud becomes a feature, not a bug. And so the system is really set up to be defrauded. And I think what we're doing with AI and technology is so important because we're looking over the horizon and saying how can we prevent this from happening in the future? And the way to do it, in the simplest way I can put it, is what AI will enable us to do is do pattern recognition on a scale never before possible. And Then pattern recognition enables pattern prediction. When you can predict patterns, you can stop them. The Free Press did a piece on our collaboration with Citizen Portal. And Citizen Portal was founded by a guy named Paul Allen who was a co founder of Ancestry.com and what we're doing is combining data sets. So we have the open the books data set of all government spending at all levels. Again, not just federal, but state and local. And when you merge data sets, that enables you to do correlations that recognize patterns. And so I think we're at a point with AI technology that is like 1609 when Galileo used the telescope to look at patterns in the sky, look at all these points of light, and discovered there are these bodies orbiting this other point of light. And that changed civilization. So the underlying project that we're working on, we call it aqueduct, and that's an allusion to the Roman technology that brought clean water to an urban area, transformed western civilization, unleashed incredible amounts of human flourishing. If we can bring clean data and clear insights to the electorate, it will revitalize and rejuvenate citizen engagement like nothing in our lifetime. And so we're thrilled to partner with Citizen Portal on this.

[D]

Now, when you talk about citizen engagement, every day citizens will be listening to this conversation. What are you talking about and how would it occur?

[A]

Right now people are rightly concerned about AI technology creating what we call a surveillance state, where the state can know more about you than you know about the state. We're trying to flip the script and the best way to thwart a surveillance state is to create a surveillance citizenry. So we're not suggesting, let's delegate our authority as we the people to this mysterious black box technology called AI. What we're trying to do is give you the tools you need to become a super intelligent citizen. So you've got this AI robot on your flank helping you identify and navigate government. So case in point, let's say as a citizen, you're at a town hall meeting. People are rightly concerned about government doing visual recognition and surveillance on individuals. But you could take your phone up and look at the politician talking and then immediately have access to all of their votes, all of the things they've said, a deep analysis of the policy positions they've taken, that informs you it's not about delegating authority, it's about investing authority with we the people. And the applications are mind blowing for what could be done in the very near future with this.

[D]

This is a rapidly evolving area because of artificial intelligence. You helped create USASpending.gov, back in 2006, did you ever expect you'd get to a point where literally in real time, everyday citizens could look at virtually everything?

[A]

You know, honestly, we did, you know, back in 2004, 2005. And you and I will both remember that. Well, we're old enough that the Google search engine was a mind blowing technology. So as a kid, I grew up reading the Encyclopedia Britannicas. I pull it off if I was bored in the summer and read, and then all of a sudden all of the information ever written is available to search online. And I work for Coburn, and it's wonderful that we're having this conversation because as you remember very well, Coburn was often your best friend, but also your nemesis. And so it speaks to the power of our system that we're having this conversation all these years later and the shared passion we have for the future and what we did. When Cockburn got to the Senate, I was with him in the House. We got to the Senate, he was incensed that you would have appropriation committee staffers hide basic spending data. So he was one of these legislators that actually believed in reading bills before he voted on them. And we would ask the committee staff for reports. So rather than give us a searchable document, they would take an extra step and turn it into an unsearchable PDF. And in response to that, there was an ambitious colleague from Illinois named Barack Obama. And our first plan with Obama, who clearly wanted to have a bipartisan accomplishment, was to get him to moderate his views on healthcare, which that didn't succeed, sadly. We could do a couple of the podcasts on that. But what did click with him was this idea of transparency. And transparency is a first principle that was written into the Constitution. It precedes the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment itself. So the argument I make is transparency is like the oxygen in the public square. We can't speak and debate if we can't breathe. And the founders really were inspired, as you talk about frequently, the classics, the Romans, the Greeks. In 50 BC, Cicero said, true law is right, reason in agreement with nature. So true law, which is natural law, is the synthesis of using reason and understanding the world as it is. And that informed the founders focus on transparency, and it's in the Constitution. And so we thought, let's merge these first principles and these ancient truths with modern technology. And the vision of that bill, Mr. Speaker, wasn't to just change a law, but to shape a norm and to create an expectation that government spending in all localities should always be online and now the technology has evolved real time transparency should be the norm. So we're working on an upgrade to USA spending to really create real time transparency. To me, that's one of these no brainer policy positions that everyone on both parties should be falling over each other to get ahead of that one.

[D]

How much has the acceleration of technology changed all this?

[A]

It's changed quite a bit because it's made it very, very hard for policymakers to hide the ball. But history is an eternal battle between freedom and tyranny. So anytime there's a new technology, state actors will want to use that to keep themselves in power. It's really a balance of power Question where is the center of gravity in a free society? Is the center of gravity and authority with we the people or is it with the state? And the founders were obsessed with this question. That's why they wrote the Constitution, which is primarily a document about limitations, not permissions. Every generation has a responsibility to use technology responsibly to advance human freedom. So this fits into our broader mission at Open the Books called the AI and the Future of Freedom Initiative. And this partnership with Citizen Portal is one of those elements, along with the Aqueduct project and some other things.

[B]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures tired

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[D]

You've got a great line. You said instead of creating a surveillance state, we believe artificial intelligence can create a surveillance citizenry. Sort of taking the Chinese model and putting it on its head. Walk us through what A surveillance citizenry

[A]

will be like, let's say we merge the open the books data set, okay? And just take one quick step back is the way AI really works. To demystify the technology, you need three things. You need big data, you need an algorithm, and then you need processing power. And you don't need as much processing power. People think to build the technology. In the AI age, big data is like enriched uranium. It could be used for peaceful purposes or destructive purposes. So we're sitting on this very big rich data set at open the Books. Now, if you take our data set and then you merge it with other data sets, for example the Bureau of Labor stats or economic performance indicators, wage growth, education, and you start to identify patterns, then that enables you to do pattern prediction and pattern recognition. And that was the genius behind Billy Beane and Moneyball, is that they didn't invent new metrics. They discovered metrics that were always there but never applied. So what we're trying to do is give citizens a deeper understanding of the relationship between data so that they can make better decisions. For example, as you and I know, the CBO scoring model is notoriously incorrect. It's a black box. It's hard to understand, it's politicized. So why not devolve that power and give it to we the people? So what we're describing, we can run circles around CBO in a very short period of time by building this technology and again invest that power with the electorate so that we preserve a free society. A practical example is let's look at energy policy. So the project I did before Open the books was on energy and environment. We did a report called Free Economies or Clean Economies. And we looked at the correlation between the Index of Economic Freedom and the Yale Environmental Performance Index to show that free economies are twice as clean as less free. So the conventional wisdom we hear a lot from kind of the progressive fundamentalist crowd is that we need a top down command and control model to have a better environment, when actually to have a better environment and to have more economic growth, you need abundant energy. That's what the data and evidence shows. We're a 501c3 nonpartisan organization. But I believe in being transparent about worldview and assumptions so people can make their own judgments. I believe in submitting my worldview to evidence and let's have an evidence based conversation and let's see whose policy perspectives are the most effective.

[D]

It ought to be possible to have an artificial intelligence check on CBO where you could ask the artificial intelligence given this data, what do you come up with? And I suspect it would be dramatically different and more accurate than the Congressional Budget Office.

[A]

Absolutely. This technology has been proven to work in the real world. Let me give you an example. When most people think about AI, they think ChatGPT, and those are all the large language models. And it's very powerful technology. It hallucinates. There are problems with it. But the better example is something called AlphaFold. And AlphaFold, if your listeners aren't familiar with it, spend 15 minutes reading about this. Because what AlphaFold is, is the chemistry field figured out how to use AI to map proteins and protein mapping is critical for drug development. So they used AI to do mapping prediction, and they did 50,000 years of research in one year. And that's going to revolutionize pharmaceutical development. So what we're talking about with Aqueduct is really the better analogy is it's like AlphaFold for public policy, where we're looking at all the relationships between the data to enable you to do pattern recognition and pattern prediction. Like a movie that I refer to a lot too is called Minority Report. Okay? This is the Tom Cruise film. It was all about stopping future crime, where this idea that you could figure out who was going to commit a crime and stop it before it happened, well, we can prevent future spending crime. You can prevent future waste by understanding the relationship between all these data sets. And again, it's about investing that authority within individuals so they can make the decision. It's not about handing it off to some mysterious technology.

[D]

You know, I just was looking today at Steve Moore's newsletter, and he has a report that the more we invest in mass transit, the fewer people ride it. The number of people on mass transit going down every year or the amount of money the federal government puts in goes up every year. It's astounding.

[A]

The best way to make something expensive is for government to make it affordable. Because the central conceit of government is that we know how to allocate scarce resources better than the market. I'll give you a really good practical example of how this works. So I talked about understanding energy policy at Open the Books. We have the biggest data set ever put together. So there are 13,500 school districts in the United States. We have coverage of about 90%. We did a comparison of 12,500 school districts and did a correlation study between expenditures on overhead versus student achievement. So here we took two data sets. We compared student achievement with overhead spending, and guess what? We found a negative correlation. Now, there was a slight negative correlation that the schools that spent more on overhead had worse student achievement. So that should pique people's interest because, you know, as limited government people, we know that more spending in education is not the answer. That's been studied, studied. But no one has looked at 12,500 school districts. So as we build these arguments and data sets, it's going to again create super intelligent citizens. And every generation has these conclusions they make that we look back and think, I can't believe we believed XYZ was a sound way to approach a problem. Like for example, the use of leeches in medicine. You know, for centuries we used leeches and there was no magic moment when people realized that was a dumb idea. It took decades. Leeches peaked in the 1830s, 1850s, and then you had germ theory and other sort of advances in technology and medicine and it took decades to move away from that. So there are things that we're doing with the relationship between again the individual and the state that make no sense. That is going to become more and more clear the more we submit to an evidence based conversation. That's what we're calling for to open the books is let's open the books together and have a fair fight on the left and right and see who's right. Let's submit to the evidence.

[D]

One of the things you did that's fascinating. I got to know Paul Allen, the co creator of Ancestry.com when he was working at Gallup. And he's very, very smart and thinks deeply. And you've partnered with citizen portal AI which he helped create, and you now have this enormous database that's searchable is a big jump for you to go to work with suits in portal AI and create this. What led you to do that?

[A]

Paul and I are both, I think we're unreasonably persistent and optimistic people. So we were in different fields 20 years ago again when the Google search engine came online and we looked over the horizon in Coburn's office and our team really got that right, like we called it. We realized, this is going to be a big deal. We need to get government spending out there as fast as possible because that's where technology is moving. And then Paul was in a similar spot, but in the private sector. He realized, wow, people are passionate about their story. Let's figure out how to get all these genealogy records online. And built this incredibly successful site called Ancestry.com so we were both entrepreneurs and pioneers in different fields. And then in the interim years when I left Coburn's office, I started my own consulting shop. And I worked with not just nonprofits and political candidates, but Silicon Valley companies. So I Learned directly from CEOs how these new technologies and search engines work and how they're built. And again, the secret, as I alluded to before, is an assembly line of data entry. When Adam and unexpectedly passed away a year and a half ago, I was involved in Open the Books for years. But that tragedy happened and the board asked me if I would come in and lead the organization. And I immediately realized that because of all my work and data, Open the Books was sitting on an incredibly powerful gold mine. Again, this enriched uranium set of data. And so then a few months later, this guy, Paul Allen started to contact me. And his approach to me was actually not unlike Adam Manjievsky's approach to me when I worked for Coburn. He just wouldn't stop asking to meet and have a conversation. So usually there are two things that are true in this situations where they're either a crank or they're a genius. Paul Allen is a genius, right? Very smart, very principled, very fundamentally decent person. So it has been an absolute joy to collaborate with him. So what we're doing again is we're enabling his users to access our data in a way that's free of charge. He has a separate for profit model that he's using, but to me it's a natural partnership. The reason we've collected all this data again and the whole genesis of the Cobra Obama bill was we wanted to keep the center of gravity and authority with we the people. Again, that's the timeless struggle throughout history, this battle between freedom and authoritarianism. So it's really a natural outgrowth of that belief system that led us to work together. This is one step. Paul has built a fabulous tool that is really designed on the user interface. But what I think is going to be transformative over time is the back end aqueduct project, which is the merging of all the data sets. So it's the merging of these different sets that again are like Galileo looking at the stars over 400 years ago. We're still doing pattern recognition, pattern prediction based on that technology. We're in a renaissance moment with representative government.

[B]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated Assets are like etc ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com Disclosures

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[B]

Research shows there is a significant connection between the ability to continue to work and cancer recovery.

[A]

We can make work a better place for healing. Learn more, and sign the [e-mail].

[D]

How much did the emergence of artificial intelligence and very large scale computing, how central is that to the kind of revolution that you're undertaking?

[A]

Very central, because I think the AlphaFold example proves that this technology works. So we don't have time to describe quantum computing, but the people that built AlphaFold, again, we're talking about chemists, they were concerned about molecules, and you deal with quantum uncertainty at that level. And they thought, well, in order to ever do anything meaningfully predictive, we'd have to have quantum computing. And that's, of course, the next level of computing technology that exists. But it isn't quite at the level of doing the simulations that we need, but it could be. But they prove that you can just use AI and an algorithm to do these pattern predictions. And if they can figure that out at the molecular level, we can certainly do a lot more than we're doing on the policy level, because in the policy space, you're dealing with economics, you're dealing with an incredibly complex set of unknowns where the way the technology really works is doing essentially almost an unlimited amount of future simulation. So it's like a time machine where you would enter one variable, let's say $100 billion on mass transit, to your example earlier. Using this tool, you can simulate trillions of future realities or billions of, and then compare the result in those future simulations, and you get a probability curve to figure out what is the impact of those things. That's what AI can do that we can't do with Excel. So as a staffer, we would beat our heads against the Excel wall. There's only so much you could do with traditional pen and paper or the Excel spreadsheet. And AI allows next level comparisons.

[D]

We're entering a period right now where even with traditional computing, because of scale, you're going to have real time data at a granularity that was unthinkable. And you're going to be able to have data that covers virtually everything that happens in American government. If we do get to quantum computing, which we probably will at some point, that changes everything overnight and gives you a totally different level of capabilities. But isn't it also true that these large models actually learn? The more they work with you, the more they understand what you're looking for, the more sophisticated their analysis will become?

[A]

That's absolutely correct. That brings up a critically important point that I think separates our work from other people talking about using Economic modeling. With AI, Getting the coalition right is as important as getting the technology right. Because if people don't trust the technology, they're never going to use it and it's not going to be adopted. So if people think, oh, this is a right wing thing or this is a Republican thing, they're not going to use it. So with the aqueduct project, we're building a steering committee of people from all over the spectrum. But we're all united in a belief that we want to have an evidence based conversation so you can be transparent about your worldview, your assumptions, but let's submit our assumptions to the evidence and let's bring a group of people together and explain to the public, step by step, what data sets we're including, how it's being shaped so that the technology can be used and trusted. There aren't these bright lines where we woke up one day, realized leeches were really dumb to use for medicine. It takes time, and so it may take 10 or 20 years, but hopefully faster for this technology to be adopted and used in a very practical way.

[D]

If I understand it, the more information you generate, the more it's analyzed, the clearer it becomes, the more potential control you're giving the citizenship to actually check and balance what's being done by the politicians and what's being done by the bureaucracy. And in that sense, it all becomes a kind of partnership between the technology and the citizens.

[A]

Exactly. It's a partnership led by the citizen. That's the critically important point because that's so much the anxiety around AI is, quote, losing control of the technology. And I'm not dismissive of those fears, but I think we have a responsibility to shape it because technology doesn't have a reverse gear that doesn't work. We're not going to put this genie back in the bottle. So let's direct the genie. And I think one of the most important policy things that Congress, the administration can do is to do everything possible to push for real time transparency, maximum transparency at all levels, in all ways, because that will make citizens more intelligent. And one of the great breakthroughs of Doge, when Elon and Doge got access to the treasury payment system for people that don't know what that is, the treasury payment system is really where the money goes out the door. And there was all this controversy because Elon got access to it. People were afraid, oh, is he going to turn off Social Security payments for people that voted for Kamala Harris? You know, all that was nonsense. It didn't come to pass. But I had this epiphany that this is really the time to push for giving all Americans access to that system. Because the treasury payment system is like the administrative state's holy of holies. You know, only the high priests shall enter when really it should be America's checkbook because it's our money, it's not the government's money. Just as you and I can go and look at our personal checking account, whatever we wish, we should have that same right to look at the government's checkbook in real time. And there are legislative things that can be done, and we're working on Chip. Roy did a bill that would give Congress access to the treasury payment system. And we're working with Chip and other members on both sides of the aisle to really enable real time transparency, which would effectively be an upgrade to USA spending. And that is achievable and urgent to do as quickly. Again, if you care about fraud, again, there's no constituency for fraud except for the fraudster. They're the only person benefiting from it. So if you're on the left or right, there's no reason to be against greater transparency.

[D]

You've worked with this a long time. You clearly have a general vision. You understand the technology that's emerging. If your vision succeeds and the technology continues to evolve, what do you see in the long run as the relationship between citizens and government?

[A]

I really see we're at the most important renaissance point in hundreds, if not thousands of years. Two thousand years ago, Cicero said true law is right, reason in agreement with nature. He made assumptions about nature that science has proven over and over again that we know that systems flourish when there's balance. For example, when you think about astrophysics, the Goldilocks zone, okay, for a planet to have liquid water, it can't be too close to the sun, it can't be too far away for a star to form. You can't have too much gravity because then it becomes a black hole. Or if you don't have enough, it never forms and everything's just flying around chaotically. Progressives would typically talk to Coburn over the years. The accusation would be, oh, well, you're anti government. It's like, no, we're not anti government. We just believe in the right balance, that usually history errs in one direction or the other. And so what I see is we're on the beginning of one of the great advances of citizen engagement. And I see this tool as one of the most important ways to address our debt burden, to enable economic growth, and again, to deal with the debt issue, as you've studied for decades, it's largely a healthcare entitlement problem. So this transparency theme is connected at a very deep level to all of these problems. So if you have greater transparency, you have greater competition, you have greater accountability. You cannot have accountability without visibility and you can't allow markets to work without visibility. And scarce resources can't become more abundant resources unless you have competition and entrepreneurship. I have a very optimistic vision. I think we need to be clear eyed and realistic about the dangers and we're in this era of frothy expectation. Like every technology we had the.com bubble and there's a lot of chatter and talk about AI that's not going to go anywhere. But what really separates, I think what we're doing, one is the quality of the coalition. We have the ability to bring together people who are very serious leaders in the field. But then secondly we have the actual data. If you talk about AI, you have no data to bring. You're not really doing much sort of

[D]

a marriage made in heaven because you now have an ability to bring the material to transform it, but you also have the ability to bring the material. And so the two coming together, I predict the next three to five years Open the Books will have an astonishing impact on government at every level. First in the US but then around the world. John, I want to thank you for joining me. Our listeners can see the work you're doing on transparency by going to openthebooks.com and people can subscribe to your substack@openthebooks substack. This has been a great conversation. I want to check in with you again in a couple months because I have a hunch you're going to keep evolving and it's going to get even more exciting.

[A]

Well, I'm thrilled to have the opportunity. Thank you so much Mr. Speaker for your vision and your deep understanding of history and also the future and the optimism that you're bringing to this dialogue.

[D]

Thank you to my guest, John Hart. In Newt's World is produced by Gingrich 360 and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Garnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by Steve Pendley. Special thanks to the team at Gingrich360. If you've been enjoying Newts World I hope you'll go to Apple podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Join me on [e-mail] I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newt's World.

[C]

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I think when you're diagnosed with cancer, you crave a semblance of normalcy and control and so work allowed me to be me. So I think it's really important that companies stay flexible. Cancer in a diagnosis can be all consuming, but it doesn't have to be.

[B]

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