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- [00:00]
Cindy Crawford
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Public Investing Platform Announcer
Guaranteed Human support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com
- [01:06]
NFL Schedule Announcer
the wait is almost Over. Get ready for the NFL season with the highly anticipated 2026 NFL schedule release. Every rivalry, every rematch and every rookie debut with matchups locked and kickoffs confirmed. Be there for every can't miss moment. The full NFL Schedule release coming in May. Get all the details@NFL.com ScheduleRelease.
- [01:36]
Wayne Barnes
Amazon Pharmacy Presents Painful Thoughts it's been
- [01:41]
Cindy Crawford
a long, bumpy road dealing with yet another bladder infection and driving to the pharmacy to pick up meds. I went over a pothole and a little pee came out. So now I get to stand in line with pee pee pants.
- [01:55]
Wayne Barnes
Next time, skip the pain and get fast free delivery. With Amazon Pharmacy healthcare just got less painful.
- [02:06]
Cindy Crawford
Craving something specific?
- [02:07]
Newt Gingrich
From global flavors to viral snacks, TikTok has it all.
- [02:12]
Cindy Crawford
If you can dream it, you can make it right at home. Find your next favorite dish on TikTok.
- [02:24]
Newt Gingrich
Welcome to Newt's World podcast on the iHeart podcast network. You know we have the 250th anniversary of America's Declaration of Independence coming up. And one of the things that's being done is to take the original Declaration of Independence engraving and the Constitution and fly them to eight different cities and show how they tie in with the 250th anniversary. The National Archives and Records Administration and the National Archives foundation announced this week that several key founding documents will be traveling across America In a Boeing 737 dubbed the Freedom Plane. The Freedom Plane will travel to eight different cities, Kansas City, Atlanta, Los Angeles, Houston, Denver, Miami, Dearborn and Seattle. On the plane will be the original engraving of the Declaration of Independence, one of only 50 known engraved copies. The Articles of Association of 1774, which were signed by all 53 delegates urging colonists to boycott British goods the Oath of Allegiance signed by George Washington, Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr during the Revolutionary War in 1778 a rare copy of a draft of the Constitution with the delegates handwritten notes from the constitutional convention in 1787 and a tally of votes approving the Constitution from 1787. Rodney Slater, chair and president of the National Archives Foundation's board of directors, said the Freedom Plane national tour underscores that the rich history of our nation belongs to all of us, not just those Americans living in or visiting Washington, D.C. it's a good moment and a good time to remember what it means to be an American. Coming up, I'm talking with Wayne Barnes, former counterintelligence Special Agent in the FBI. He was involved in a secret operation that uncovered Robert Hanson as a mole. His new book, A Traitor in the FBI the Hunt for a Russian Mole, tells the story. That's next.
- [04:53]
Public Investing Platform Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures the
- [05:55]
NFL Schedule Announcer
wait is almost over. Get ready for the NFL season with a highly anticipated 2026 NFL schedule release Every rivalry, every rematch, and every rookie debut with matchups locked and kickoffs confirmed. Be there for every can't miss moment. The full NFL schedule release coming in May. Get all the details@NFL.com ScheduleRelease.
- [06:24]
Wayne Barnes
Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts I
- [06:30]
Cindy Crawford
I can't stop scratching my downtown.
- [06:32]
Wayne Barnes
Mm, yeah, but I'm not itching to
- [06:34]
Cindy Crawford
go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm
- [06:37]
Wayne Barnes
here to talk about my downtown.
- [06:40]
Cindy Crawford
Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.
- [06:44]
Wayne Barnes
There's no question too embarrassing For Amazon Health AI chat your symptoms and get virtual care 24. 7 Healthcare just got less painful.
- [06:55]
Cindy Crawford
Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but, like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningfulbeauty.com.
- [07:35]
Newt Gingrich
I am really pleased to welcome my guest, Wayne Barnes, a former counterintelligence special agent in the FBI. For 29 years, he worked KGB espionage, ran double agents, recruited hostile intelligence officers, and found his niche debriefing Cold War defectors. He's now a licensed private investigator, a signature expert, and he also recovers stolen impressionist paintings. The Dirty Harry for billionaires. What an amazing career. You went to Penn State and Villanova Law. What led you to become an FBI agent?
- [08:15]
Wayne Barnes
Well, I was raised in inner city Philadelphia. I had seen Ephrem Zimbalist on his FBI show in my youth, but nothing really led me there. I was in a Germantown high school, a very bad neighborhood, and part of the deal was to escape the inner city of Philadelphia, which I did at Penn State. But my parents were very good about having me lead a clean and straight life, which wasn't always the case with folks in my neighborhood. So Villanova Law, you know, you study hard, and I was a dorm counselor, which was money to get through room and board, and it was all working hard, trying to make something of yourself. And it wasn't till the end of my time at Villanova that someone came from the Philadelphia field office to talk about careers in law enforcement. That was the first time I actually even thought about the FBI. I thought I'd be a lawyer, but I didn't have any particular field I wanted to go into. But anyway, so that's really how it began, and I was very glad it worked that way.
- [09:05]
Newt Gingrich
But when you joined the Bureau, you pretty quickly moved into counterintelligence. What attracted you to that?
- [09:13]
Wayne Barnes
Well, as everything, there's always a backstory. I had Spanish in high school and French in college. And I'm one of those curious people that actually remembers things he learns. So when the Bureau gives you the Army Language Aptitude Test a lat during training, it's how well you can learn languages. Of course, that has to be based on Romance grammar, because, again, I have Cyrillic or Chinese characters in the questions. So I did really well in the test. So after a first office in Los Angeles for a year and then several months in the New York office, I got a call from headquarters saying, you have the next highest score in the language aptitude test. Would you like to go to Monterey, California, for nine months and learn Romanian? And. And I was happy to escape New York because I was a poor new, underpaid sort of FBI agent compared to the prices in New York City. So I went there, and in nine months, I took Romanian, and now I'm a Romanian speaker. And the benefit of that was I went to Washington, which was the dream career. And it's the home of counterintelligence in the FBI. New York has missions to the UN, but that's nothing like what we have in Washington. So that was perfect. Several years of working Romanian cases. A man who was the director of Romania's Foreign Intelligence Service, Ion Mihaly Pachepa, he was like the head of the CIA or kgb, but for Romania. He defected to the west, and I became his primary debriefer. The CIA had done a riff of all the Romanian speakers at the time, so they hated it. But the FBI got to be primary debriefers. And it was really, really important, because when someone would die, something happened with Castro or Khrushchev or Brezhnev. They'd all turn to Pichapa, and they'd say, tell us about this guy. And he knew them all. He knew Mao. He knew all the bad guys. So that was what led me into a really great career in the FBI.
- [10:49]
Newt Gingrich
You're a young guy with a limited income in Monterey, California. What was that like?
- [10:56]
Wayne Barnes
Well, you have six hours of class in the daytime and three hours of study at night while you can see the Monterey Bay, and you can do things the weekends. You are studying your Kisterov. But there are others in the class who knew four or five languages already, like German, Czech, Russian, but they didn't know Any Romance languages. So it was much easier for me than it was for others because the grammar is very, very similar. I got an award when we graduated for being a good speaker. And when I got to Washington, I would speak to emigres and the local priest, and I would practice. So I lost whatever Philadelphia accent I had, and I could speak it really well. So Monterey was just preparation for that. But I didn't do a lot in Monterey besides study, I'm sorry to say. But it was great weather.
- [11:34]
Newt Gingrich
Yeah, I was going to say. I'm curious. You're dealing, first of all with Romanians. What drew you to Soviet intelligence?
- [11:44]
Wayne Barnes
I got to Washington field office in 1974 after language school. There was a squad there with 39 agents, which was the largest squad in the FBI. And there were six or seven agents dealing with each one of the Eastern Bloc countries. Romania, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria. And everyone spoke a language of Eastern Europe. It was like a mini UN but we all got along. Unlike the un, we did really well and were able to recruit embassy officials, intelligence officers that actually compromised their intelligence services. And then when General Pachepa defected in 78, he had everything about the service. So the Romanian intelligence service pretty much went under. I worked other cases. I worked undercover against Czechs and Hungarians as a assumed name and identity. But at one point, it wasn't that. There wasn't any remaining work left. I was the undercover coordinator in the field office, and I just worked a lot of cases. I taught a lot of people that undercover matters, and they transferred me to work. Russians. Someone said at one point that they are unleashing barns on the Russians. That was one of the nicest compliments I ever had.
- [12:47]
Newt Gingrich
In terms of the Romanians, how much did they interface with the kgb, and how important or unimportant were they in the Soviet scheme of things?
- [12:58]
Wayne Barnes
Oh, they were very important. They were very important players at the time. The bloc countries, especially East Germany, which was a separate squad, they were really, really close to the Russians, to the Soviets, especially, technically speaking. But the rest of the Eastern Bloc, the war saw pact. They were affiliated with them, and their intelligence service was. For instance, the man who was in charge of the Czech intelligence in Washington in that time frame was a colonel in Czech intelligence, but he also had the rank of captain in the kgb. So that's an indication. They would have meetings at the embassy, at the Soviet embassy every week, sometimes every two weeks. They would discuss intelligence matters. And if you had someone you had recruited who went to one of those meetings as a Romanian, you were penetrating the Russians too, not just the Romanians. So that's the nature of what had happened there. An important thing that General Pacheppa explained. He later wrote a book called Red Horizon. You would recall from the time that Romania was especially Nixon. Nixon went to visit Romania, which was a real shocker, but that was a big deal for them. But Ceausescu there, Nicolae Ceausescu, the president for life dictator, he said that Romania was actually a socialist state in a sea of communism. And he portrayed them as like breaking away from the Warsaw Pact. And that was actually a massive international undercover operation that the Romanians and the Russians had put together. So they would get most favored nation trading status, they would have better ability to visit people in the State Department, got involved in meetings on Capitol Hill that none of the Warsaw Pact were in. And it was a trick. The whole thing was a trick set up by the Russians. And the Romanians have that look like the Romanians had more freedom than the rest of Eastern Europe. But they didn't. And that massive case they had, they code named it Horizon. So when General Pachepa wrote his book and explained all of that, he called his book Red Horizon. At one point, President Reagan held up his book and he said, this is my primer on how to deal with dictators. Because the book revealed what Ceausescu was and how bad they all were, which literally resulted in the downfall of his revolution against him.
- [14:50]
Newt Gingrich
You do the Romanians, you start to do the Soviets, but then your daughter has spina bifida and you moved to San Diego to support her treatment. How did that affect your career?
- [15:05]
Wayne Barnes
Well, let me just finish a little more on career. I got to work Russian starting in 81. I was debriefing defectors just as I had been doing in the bloc countries. And including the General. But that was a special niche. There was a squad that was created in 1979, I guess by Admiral Stanisl Turner, who was the head of the CIA and Judge Webster was the head of the FBI at the time. And they knew there always been contested areas between the Bureau and the agency and they wanted to get rid of that. So they wanted to create one single squad which they called courtship. Consisting of three FBI agents and three CIA case officers in an undercover off site location in Springfield with no apparent connection to the federal government, with the sole goal of recruiting Soviet intelligence officers. And we were successful, later executed. It was a successful squad to that degree. So I did that. It was a two year assignment. I was there for three and a half years. I must have been doing something right. But we really had extraordinary. They like to say you were either a high risk agent or low risk agent. And you can have a short leash or a long leash. I was a high risk, long leash agent. And that was what enabled us to do a lot of good things. I did many things on Capitol Hill. One of my colleagues, Senator Domenici, is a legislative assistant, George Ramones, you likely knew him from the past. He was at the White House a lot because Domenici was the head of the Budget Committee in the Senate. So those kind of people would help us and would be very, very beneficial for all of our cases. So after doing courtship, I was on a night shift duty for several months, and I wrote a handbook, a manual about how to work undercover counterintelligence, which the Bureau still uses today. So that was a real plus. And then finally, after having done all those things, my daughter was born. And we realized that the doctor said, the best orthopedic surgeons in the world are in San Diego. You need to go there. For me, it was like leaving an entire life behind because there was almost no counterintelligence in San Diego. So had that change. I thought it would be over. But then it turns out there were some cases that actually had the next MIG pilot who defected. They resettled them temporarily in San Diego so I could debrief him, which was special. It tells you that it was an important system. And just one other item about the time in D.C. if you debrief a defector and they have a story to tell, each vignette goes into what we call a letterhead, memorandum, viewer's letterhead at the top. The rest, however many pages, just as a narrative story. Not like a police report, not like a memo with numbered paragraphs, nothing like that. And I would write a four page memo, for instance, and it would go to headquarters. And if the man at headquarters who's reading this and try to understand it knows where it has to be sent. If he gets to page three and he's kind of bored and yawning, and he may not turn to page four, so you have to write them better. So I started using adjectives and adverbs. So at one point there were stories, and I was crossing Pennsylvania Avenue, and one of the senior people, the section chief at headquarters, stopped me on the median strip with cars zipping by on both sides. He said, wayne, Wayne, Wayne, I have to tell you. I have to tell you. So I said, what? He said, I was reading that memo. He said, I got the page Four. And when I finished, I got turned over. I wanted more pages.
- [18:04]
Newt Gingrich
Now, that's a compliment.
- [18:06]
Wayne Barnes
That was the first thing, that inadvertent compliment.
- [18:09]
Newt Gingrich
But back during that period, as you were turning agents, could you sense the decay of the Soviet system in that there were more people willing to defect, or is that not a factor?
- [18:23]
Wayne Barnes
It's a combination of things at the same time. John Douglas was doing his personality profiling. He invented profiling based on serial killers. He was interviewing in prison. What he was doing was not in the open per se, but wasn't classified, whereas we were doing the same kind of thing in counterintelligence. And so there was a connection there. You know, what is a serial murder? Like, why is he doing what he's doing for us? Who in the Soviet Embassy has the personality that we might be able to recruit him? And likewise, who is working on the new Wing B2 bomber architecture, who needs money and might want to sell secrets to the Russians? So we had to look for those two far ends of the spectrum, the Russian who would defect and the American who would commit espionage. So that was the profiling which was important. It's important for my book. A Traitor and the FBI, that became very important. But that was something that, because John Douglas did what he did, we got to have our portion of the puzzle. But ours was classified, so no one knew about it. Not until this bookends out. We got better. We just understood better how to do it. We had more one on one undercover operations. But a few things that were important that did happen. We had the undercover squad and we were working the cases much better. And then one day I was debriefing General Pacheca, and he said, you know, you need to tell your president who was Reagan at the time. He said, you need to tell your president that the Soviet Union, the economics. It's like a big oak tree. It looks beautiful, looks strong, but the bark is what's holding it up, and it's rotten inside. He said, if you can push that tree, it'll fall over. And that was around the time when Reagan stood on the Brandenburg gate and said, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. When he came up with sdi, which everybody knew later on technologically, could not have possibly happened at the time. But I was meeting undercover with a couple different Russians at the same time. And they were fearful, so afraid of the whole concept that their economy was going to fall apart because they had to put money toward defending against sdi. That was the way that the system works. So the Bureau did have a piece of the puzzle of the Berlin Wall coming down and the end of Communism as we knew it.
- [20:22]
Newt Gingrich
When we come back, the unbelievable story of the undercover operation to unmask the KGB's mole in the FBI.
- [20:30]
Public Investing Platform Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures the
- [21:32]
NFL Schedule Announcer
wait is almost over. Get ready for the NFL season with a highly anticipated 2026 NFL schedule release. Every rivalry, every rematch and every rookie debut with matchups locked and kickoffs confirmed. Be there for every can't miss moment. The full NFL Schedule release coming in May. Get all the details@NFL.com schedule release.
- [22:01]
Wayne Barnes
Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts why
- [22:06]
Cindy Crawford
did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.
- [22:24]
Wayne Barnes
Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.
- [22:32]
Cindy Crawford
Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age? Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty Beautiful Skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.
- [23:12]
Newt Gingrich
You know, you were telling earlier that you learned how to write interestingly, just to get into. Finish reading your papers. And then you began to figure out, well, gee, maybe you could actually write. And then you have this story which reads like a spy thriller, except it's real. Now, when you got into it in 1998, they pull you into this thing about finding a suspected mole inside the FBI. I mean, how did that happen? That was a huge shift from looking for the bad guys on the other side to looking for a bad guy on our side.
- [23:48]
Wayne Barnes
Yes, well, thank you for asking the question. It's the dream question. When I arrived in San Diego, there was a counterintelligence squad, counterterrorism. But there was minimal work. Even though the 31 military bases in San Diego, it was nothing like Washington. I ended up working healthcare fraud for a while, which is not to be confused with anything in the counterintelligence field. So one day I got a call from A fellow Gene McClellan I had known for years and years back in Washington. On Sunday morning, he called me, and he said, mike and Dave and I are coming out. Was Dave Greb and Mike Rochford. He said, we're coming out on Tuesday. Don't tell anybody we're coming. Not anyone in the counterintelligence squad. Not your wife, not anybody. So I said, what's going on? Like, I'm the maverick. Why would you guys want to come and talk to me? And they said, just, we'll tell you Tuesday. Tuesday they came out. We sat down in the Bahia on the Mission Bay, and Mike Rochard was in charge. And the case was Grey Suit, which turned out to be what later became known as the Hanson case. But we didn't know it then. It was just the unknown subject. And he said, there's a penetration of the FBI at a senior level. At one point, they thought it might be CIA, but based upon the information we had, it was really the FBI. He said, there is probably a dozen people in the world who might know what this man looks like or know how to identify him. And even as we later learned, the Russians didn't know who he was, but did know his face. He said, there's a man who knows the identity of the unknown subject coming to a film festival in two months. We want you to go to the film festival, get backstopping of some sort. Go to the film festival. It's in Santa Monica. He said, find him, meet him, befriend him, recruit him, and then show him photos of a dozen FBI agents we suspect as possibly being the spy, and then have him point out a photo.
- [25:25]
Newt Gingrich
Wow, this is out of the blue.
- [25:29]
Wayne Barnes
Yeah, it's clear blue. However, I'm the person who should catch this kind of case. I'm the guy In Washington, D.C. 1 a Soviet is assigned to the Soviet Embassy. During the Cold War, they would have a four year tour of duty. They would be there two years and then back home for three months. Home leave and then back for another two years. Whatever it's worth. That's when you should pitch a Russian. When he's just been back to Russia and comes back to the US to make the brain comparison. Like, that's a bad place over there. But nevertheless. But in four years, it was almost impossible to recruit a Soviet official, a KGB officer, or a GRU military. So I said, how long will I have to do this? And they said, eight days. The festival is eight days long. That is your Mission Impossible. And the other part of it is if you know Tom Cruise and his Mission Impossible movies, his obstacles are physical. He's jumping out of an airplane, he's scaling buildings. You know, that was all physical obstacles. My obstacle was psychological. There were two superpowers, the Soviet Union and the US of A. And the Russians thought they were members of the better superpower. So why would he want to talk to me? I did get backstopping. I did go to the festival. I did meet him. It didn't play out exactly like it was planned, but that's the kind of very difficult thing to plan to the
- [26:37]
Newt Gingrich
end for somebody who doesn't know all about this stuff. What does backstopping mean?
- [26:42]
Wayne Barnes
Oh, I'm sorry. So if you want to meet a target, it could be an organized crime or it could be in the black. I was an undercover Black Panther at one point also, which was another story. But nevertheless, I had a lot of experience in working undercover activities. When you meet someone, you need to be somebody, especially if it's working against Soviets because their lives are so controlled. When they're assigned to an embassy, if they go out to a luncheon meeting, you have to have approval in advance. And what restaurant they're going to has to be approved in advance. When they come back, they have to report what they've done, who they saw and what information they gained. So you have to have all that as backstopping. So at one point, I was a lobbyist for small airplanes from Vero Beach, Cessna and Arrow type planes. And I met a fellow who was in the Soviet military Intelligence, who had been a pilot. So I was a lobbyist for guys down at Vero Beach. And the Russians couldn't go any further. I said I was, and I knew how to fly a plane, so that was all I needed. But for Los Angeles, it was different. This was a film festival, and I've seen a lot of movies. I had took my kids to a lot of movies. But as it turns out, a fellow who was in the CIA at the time, his name was Jack Platt, great, great CIA officer. Had a sister in Los Angeles who was a member of the Academy. Academy of Motion Picture and Arts. And her name was Polly Platt. And he talked to her and asked if she would be willing to help the FBI. Now, you know, the Hollywood people wouldn't always lean toward the FBI. That's either an understatement or the opposite. It's true. Anyway, so she said, I have to meet the guy first. So I drove from San Diego to Los Angeles. I met her in her studio office in Carsey Werner Studios out in San Fernando Valley. And we talked for two hours, and we became great friends. So she literally was my fig leaf for my backstopping. So I went back. George Ramones, he was a senior guy working for Domenici. Great, great person. And we had a lot of good times together. But I needed backstopping from Washington. Because when you work undercover, you use your own life up to the point where you're not using your life. So if I was a lobbyist in Washington, those are the people I'd see. Those are the kind of things that I would do if I flew back to Washington. And George helped set up a cover with me, which was as a independent financer of movies, of films. And in theory, I had a lot of Texas millionaires who. They know that drilling for oil and gambling in the casinos had the same percentage for them as, for instance, making a movie that works. So they had money. They wanted to dabble in it. So I was there representing Texas millionaires trying to find a movie to make. And the film festival is called the American Film Market. It's made with people who bring in their. Not just their scripts, but movies sometimes already made abroad. They're trying to get distribution. They're trying to get their head to their movies into the public, as well as having movie theaters commandeered where they show their movies. And there's just a lot of breakout sessions with things to do. So the goal was to find the Russian and meet him and befriend him and recruit him. So the intensity of Trying to do that. The pieces of the puzzle you have to put together answers. Most of what you said, but there's obviously a whole book worth more.
- [29:36]
Newt Gingrich
How much time did you spend building the backstory?
- [29:40]
Wayne Barnes
Well, we knew he was coming within two months of when he was going to get here. If you're coming from the Soviet Union at that point, the former Soviet Union, nothing changed in the bureaucratic system. They still control their people, whether they're coming out or going. They still want to make sure you have a family left behind, that if you decide to defect, you'll be assured to come back because they have your wife and kids. Even though he had been assigned to the embassy in Washington in the 80s, they still had to have it. So that wasn't just him. Anybody from that area wanted to. He was in presence of an Armenian woman that was one of the 15 Soviet Socialist Republics. And it was the same way there. You have to get permission to get out of Armenia. It was crazy to us. They had internal passports where if you wanted to go from Washington to Toledo, Ohio, you had to have an internal passport to get you there. That's a parallel. Like, how could that be? But that's the way the system worked that a lot of people didn't fully understand.
- [30:31]
Newt Gingrich
When you're out here, you described that the very first touch is really important. Now, what does that mean?
- [30:40]
Wayne Barnes
First, the book is A Traitor in the the Hunt for a Russian Mole. And it's not that I'm hiding something from you or taking any wind out of my own sails, but the complexity of doing that. I invented and developed certain terms which I think are still used. And the touch is the very first time you meet somebody, what preparation you have to make. My view was always you had to have him see you first, to know that you were a person, whether you're with somebody else or in some kind of a conference, some setting. So if you meet him for the first time, that's the first time he's ever seen you, you could be suspicious to him. So you have to have preparations for the touch. And we did that in a very complex way with surveillance people. But then when you finally meet the man, it also has to look like an accident or he has to make the overture. So he thinks he's in the catbird seat. He thinks he's in charge of the relationship. And that's all very psychologically complex, but that was what we did.
- [31:31]
Newt Gingrich
You meet this guy at the film festival, you chat with him. What is your incentive for him to be helpful?
- [31:40]
Wayne Barnes
How do I cause him to have incentives. I hope your listeners will read the book and not get all of it now. But he was traveling with a woman who was a producer from Armenia, and she only spoke Armenian and Russian. He was translating for her. They were kind of attached at the hip. And if it was good for her, it was good for him. And I was the kind of person who might finance an independent film. So he was all in. But psychologically, you couldn't ask for a better result. But at the same time, you have to weave your way into the undercover operation. So that becomes the result.
- [32:13]
Newt Gingrich
And did you actually, in that eight days, show him the pictures?
- [32:16]
Wayne Barnes
No, no. It did happen later. It wasn't right to happen at that time. But we did the profiling of what he was, what he needed, which it goes into detail in the book and how that happened. I done this a lot, and to me, this was extraordinary. There was never a case like this, but something that goes hand in hand with that, which, again, everything is covered in the Trader and the FBI book. But. And as an example, and you would appreciate this as a person who dealt with paperwork on Capitol Hill and as speaker of the House. Paperwork, things have to be documented. Because the senior bad guy was in the FBI. If we had a case opened with his name on it, for instance, he could search the computer and see if we had a case going against him. That's a bad thing. So we couldn't do that. So I would beat the man. I mean, how I met him was fairly unique and extraordinary. But. So when I did meet him, we had a meeting of some sort. I would go back to my Holiday Inn hotel and I would type it up on my home laptop computer. I would go to the hotel's business office and print it out four or five pages, make sure the barrel was clear, that no one else could see what I printed out. Then go to a FedEx office and send it back to Gene McClelland, who was in Alexandria. And later, the next morning, he would get it. Then he would drive it into the field office where they had a scif, the compartmented facility, which was very important for this particular case. And he would put the page on the table and everybody would read it. But they couldn't put it in the computer system. They'd sat in a pile over in the corner and they would read it. And that's how everything. Everything transpired. I couldn't go to the Los Angeles field office and have them whip up a teletype or send a communication. This was about the beginning time of E Communications also and had been otherwise before that.
- [33:59]
Newt Gingrich
Coming up, the seven year struggle in getting the story published.
- [34:03]
Public Investing Platform Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It's screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures the
- [35:04]
NFL Schedule Announcer
wait is almost over. Get ready for the NFL season with the highly anticipated 2026 NFL schedule release. Every rivalry, every rematch and every rookie debut with matchups locked and kickoffs confirmed. Be there for every can't miss moment. The full NFL Schedule release coming in May. Get all the details@NFL.com schedulerelease.
- [35:34]
Wayne Barnes
Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts why
- [35:39]
Cindy Crawford
did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly traffic source in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.
- [35:56]
Wayne Barnes
Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast Healthcare just got less painful.
- [36:04]
Cindy Crawford
Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth activating melon serum. This next generation serum has the power of melan leaf stem cell technology. Its melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All that available@meaningfulbeauty.com.
- [37:10]
Newt Gingrich
It's fascinating how complex this was.
- [37:14]
Wayne Barnes
Yeah, for me it reminds me of the idea of books from years ago banned in Boston. You know, if someone hears the book was banned in Boston and they're in Los Angeles, they want to read that book. Boston may not have it, but everybody else on the country wants to see it. So I wrote it for three years, 2013 and 2016. Now you must understand there is a pre publication review office. If you write a book of poetry, write a book about fly fishing in West Virginia, the bureau wants to see it in case there's something in there, some analogy or whatever it might be. And if the CIA is mentioned, they have to send it to the CIA for their part of it so they can clear it or whatever agency. They had never had a book submitted to them before which was strictly, we call it Foreign Counterintelligence fci. But a counterintelligence book submitted before, not one that was true. You could have a fiction counterintelligence book and change all the names and have some fantasy things and it'll go right through. I wanted to make this documented because I saw this as FBI history and US Intelligence history. I wanted names and places because it happened just as it's in the book. It happened. So with all that, they had to make sure not just it was all accurate as far as they could tell, but also they had to see if there was what they call sources and methods. And that's pretty nebulous. Well, I sent it to them in 2016 and they have 45 days to review a book. Three years later they sent it back to me completely redacted, except for one half of one page. At one point I was with a Russian and he told me a joke which was negative, about Russians, which was good, meaning he had advanced from the hard Soviet bureaucracy. So I had to tell a joke back. Part of my cover was being a lawyer, formerly in Washington and now in San Diego. I told a lawyer joke, you know, like a Hindu, a Jew, and A lawyer driving down the road, the car breaks down one of those and it was half a page. And that was the only thing they didn't black out. Apparently the pre publication Review thought it was funny, but they did not think it was classified. So I argued with them. I flew back to Washington three times from Florida and Fort Lauderdale. I flew there three times to argue with them and make my case. Finally, after another four years, a total of seven years that it took to get it cleared.
- [39:20]
Newt Gingrich
That's wild. So what percent did they all the arguments?
- [39:26]
Wayne Barnes
Well, they had me change wording. For instance, if there was a certain kind of a school where you learn how to do undercover things, you have to just say something else, like specialized training, that kind of thing. They wanted me to reach out to every name who's in the book and I wanted all the names in there. This is documented history and it comes back to the way the politicians work. When I got permission from everybody, it was if you use my name, just make sure you spell it right, that sort of a thing. And even the ones that weren't spoken of kindly in the book, who had done things which I consider to be not pluses for the case, they all said, you know, go for it. It's an extraordinary story. So I think there were 32 individuals named that had to get their permissions and someone had to really do some searching because when a retired agent decides to go off the grid, he knows how to do that. So I had to find all of them. And a lot of them did not know they were part of this case because they just thought we were surveilling a Russian. They didn't know what the reason we were smailing him was. And he was under surveillance because we needed to know if anybody else was connected to him, what he was doing.
- [40:25]
Newt Gingrich
He ended up in a supermax, I guess, picked up in 2001 and died in 23. When you think about that whole story, and I really don't understand why he did it.
- [40:38]
Wayne Barnes
Good question. And the psychologists and psychiatrists will look at that for years. I've talked to some of the ones who dealt with him. There was Dr. Charnov, I think was named Charney, who had permission to talk to him for hours and then was able to talk to the public about it. Primarily, I guess his response that I gathered from it was compartmentalization. He could be a strong hardline FBI agent. One moment, he could be at the 6am Mass every morning as another aspect. And then at the same time he's taking documents and he's given them to Russians under a bridge in a park. How do you do that? When he was in Chicago and he had told someone when he was trying to become an FBI agent that he was going to become a spy for the Russians, and that didn't come out until a long time later. So if someone had heard that, that would have been different. Of course, the psychologist will always talk about no one in particular, but they'll always talk about the relationship that a boy has with his father. Apparently his father as a police officer was very, very stern. And it isn't actually getting back at him, but psychologically, that's a pattern of an awful lot of people who do bad things, either seek his guidance or seek his approval, and he couldn't get it, that sort of thing. But the irony was he spent the same number of years in jail, just about exactly as he had been working for the Russians. It's poetic.
- [41:53]
Newt Gingrich
Do you think there are still spies in the FBI?
- [41:58]
Wayne Barnes
Well, this is not something that people often ask. It isn't that there's still spies in the FBI. They're always spies all the time. I mean, there's been a recent breach. The Chinese apparently have breached some sensitive files in the FBI. And the question is, well, we won't have to worry about spies under the bridges anymore because we can do those all with technology. But that's not really so. When a Russian would defect in, say, 1980, his knowledge was then historic. He didn't know what was going to happen. Tomorrow you can debrief him like crazy about all the stuff from the past, but tomorrow, that was something else. If you have a live source, he can tell you, here's what we're going to do tomorrow. Here's where we're going to meet. Here's what's going to happen. You may be able to penetrate this system and learn some of that, but the nature of the meeting and what's going through someone's mind, that was something entirely different. Takes live sources. So even if you have technological breaches and breaks on your side, the idea of having a live source will always be important. If you can get one, if they volunteer themselves to, you have to make sure that they're bona fide. But at the same time, the live source is always important. And then when it comes the time that you realize who the bad guy is, who the source is, not as much with this particular case, but with any other someone in the military, you've realized that he's giving secrets away. You turn him around and you say, okay, in your next meeting you're going to give him these documents. And these are now disinformation. So the Russians will never know at what point when they finally find out that he's now given them bad information, they don't know at what point the real information became bad information. So you're able to compromise the operation for the Russians. It's the same way you could do it if there's a breach, if you know there's a breach and you'll tell the world so it goes out on CNN and wherever. And if you know there's a breach and then you can then give this information through the Reach so they won't know when it began to be bad information. So the techniques are going to be the same, even if it's not just humans versus computers and AI. So there will always be spies. You know, the second oldest profession and all that. Or the oldest. I'm not sure which one is first. Sorry.
- [43:54]
Newt Gingrich
I want to thank you for joining me. Your new book, A Traitor in the FBI the Hunt for a Russian Mole is available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. And your story is absolutely fascinating.
- [44:08]
Wayne Barnes
Today's publication day. This is the birthday of the bull.
- [44:15]
Public Investing Platform Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like E ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.com disclosure disclosures
- [45:16]
NFL Schedule Announcer
the wait is almost over. Get ready for the NFL season with the highly anticipated 2026 NFL schedule release. Every rivalry, every rematch and every rookie debut with matchups locked and Kickoffs confirmed. Be there for every can't miss moment. The full NFL Schedule release coming in May. Get all the details@NFL.com ScheduleRelease.
- [45:46]
Wayne Barnes
Amazon Health AI Presents Painful Thoughts why
- [45:51]
Cindy Crawford
did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.
- [46:08]
Wayne Barnes
Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.
- [46:16]
Cindy Crawford
Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of melon Leaf Stem Cell Technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All that available@meaningful beauty.com.
- [47:22]
Newt Gingrich
I'm pleased to introduce new segment to Newt's World where I answer listeners questions. To ask a question please email me at newtingrich360.com Mike from Orlando, Florida wrote me a very nice note about a time we met in person at the main Republican convention in Augusta, Maine in 1994 where he was serving as State Party Treasurer. He said, Newt, I simply want to know that this contemporary was very honored to meet you. I am certain you do not remember that brief interaction, but I wanted you to know that it was meaningful to me. I was impressed with your academic credentials, your speakership, and the way you managed to bring a struggling party to prominence. The folks of the day owed it all to you and I am confident President Reagan and President Bush recognized the importance of your contributions. Mike, that was a very nice thing for you to say and I'm very grateful that you said it. And of course 1994 was the year we had the Contract with America and we were beginning to take over. And I remember being in Augusta, Maine and being there in the fall and flying in a private plane at a low altitude and the colors of the trees was so spectacular. So you reminded me of a very fond event and it was a time when we all came together, we all worked on the same team, and we made history by creating the first House Republican majority in 40 years. So thank you for your note. I look forward to hearing from you. To ask a question, please email me at newtignglars360.com thank you to my guest Wayne Barnes. Newts World is produced by Gingrich 360 and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Jern Zlub. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. Special thanks to the team at Gingrich360. If you've been enjoying Newts World, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Join me on substack@gingrich360.net I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newts World.
- [49:46]
Cindy Crawford
This is Sophia Donner from OK Storytime this summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video and listen. We're not saying you need another obsession, but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice, so why not watch them a third time off campus? L the Love Hypothesis and more Slow Burns Second Chances chemistry you can feel through the screen and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got binge worthy series. Can't Miss movies. Perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems or procrastinating as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.
- [50:23]
NFL Schedule Announcer
The wait is almost over. Get ready for the NFL season with the highly anticipated 2026 NFL schedule release. Every run rivalry, every rematch and every rookie debut with matchups locked and kickoffs confirmed, be there for every Can't Miss moment. The full NFL Schedule release coming in May. Get all the details@NFL.com ScheduleRelease.
- [50:53]
Cindy Crawford
Summer adventures are better with Minky Couture. From road trips to ball games, beach nights to backyard movies, Minky has you covered. Don't miss the Everywhere Blanket. Water resistant, ultra soft and made for life on the go. Wherever summer takes you, bring comfort along. Minkycouture.com the original best Blanket Ever. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.