Episode 989: China's War on Faith A Conversation with Ambassador Sam Brownback

Summary

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Newt’s World – Episode 989: China's War on Faith – A Conversation with Ambassador Sam Brownback

Host: Newt Gingrich
Guest: Ambassador Sam Brownback
Date: June 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a compelling conversation between Newt Gingrich and Ambassador Sam Brownback exploring the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) ongoing campaign against religious freedom. Drawing on Brownback’s decades of public service and his new book, China’s War on Faith, the discussion delves into China’s crackdown on faith groups, lessons from Brownback’s human rights advocacy, the strategic significance of religious freedom, and practical recommendations for confronting Chinese totalitarianism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sam Brownback’s Background and Path to Advocacy

• Early Life & Career (05:17–10:14):

  • Grew up in rural Parker, Kansas, where hard work and family values shaped his worldview.
  • Leadership roles in Future Farmers of America and early political involvement inspired by meeting public servants.
  • Held positions as student body president at Kansas State and class president at Kansas Law.
  • Served as Secretary of Agriculture for Kansas, then as US Congressman and Senator.

• Religious Liberty Journey (10:38–12:24):

  • Brownback credits a staffer who raised awareness of religious persecution abroad, leading to his instrumental work passing the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998.
  • Realized the power of US political intervention: “We wrote a letter and we got him out of prison. Let’s do more of that.” (11:38)

2. Global Fight Against Human Trafficking

• Legislative Action (12:24–14:01):
  • Passed the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000, igniting a national movement against modern slavery.
  • Personal connection: family land tied to abolitionist John Brown, reinforcing Brownback’s lifelong aversion to all forms of slavery.

3. Lessons in International Religious Freedom

• Ambassador-at-Large Experience (14:01–15:13):

  • Profoundly impacted by stories of individuals persecuted for faith worldwide, especially converts willing to risk their lives.
  • “Their faith was just so real... it challenged my faith in a beautiful way.” (14:28)

• Personal Consequences (15:13–16:37):

  • Sanctioned and banned from China for advocating sanctions against CCP officials committing abuses in Xinjiang.
  • Viewed this as “the highest honor I’ve ever achieved.” (15:26)

4. Rethinking US-China Policy

• Regret Over China Trade Vote (19:02–20:27):
  • Both Gingrich and Brownback reflect on their support for granting China “most favored nation” trade status—a move now seen as a significant strategic blunder.
  • “I wanted to believe it... but it was a huge mistake.” (19:22, Brownback)

5. China’s War on Faith

• Ideological Roots (20:27–22:13):

  • CCP’s war is not just against organized religion but any worldview with authority above the state.
  • Chinese leadership studied Soviet collapse and concluded that faith communities pose a fundamental threat to authoritarian rule.

• Falun Gong Case Study (22:13–25:26):

  • The rapid growth of Falun Gong—a homegrown, spiritual exercise movement—alarmed the CCP, leading to ruthless persecution including forced organ harvesting.
  • “They thought, we’ve got to kill and wipe out these guys...” (22:25, Brownback)

• Three Ongoing Genocides (25:26):

  • Brownback asserts the CCP is committing “three genocides right now”: against Muslim Uyghurs, Tibetan Buddhists, and Falun Gong practitioners.

• Dependence on China and Supply Chain Issues (25:26):

  • Urgent call to break strategic supply chain dependencies, particularly for rare earth minerals and medicines.

6. Technology as a Tool of Oppression

• Surveillance and Technology Export (29:14–30:28):
  • Technology is not just a domestic tool—Chinese surveillance methods are being exported, with implications for US security and global authoritarianism.
  • “A Chinese car manufactured today is really just a computer on wheels with surveillance systems and cameras.” (29:32, Brownback)

7. Personal Stories of Persecution

• Case of Mirigul Turson (30:28–32:25):
  • Turson’s harrowing personal tragedies underscore the routine cruelty and psychological warfare used by the CCP against religious minorities.
  • “They give her his dead body and said he wasn’t strong enough to survive. They killed him.” (30:42)

8. Religious Freedom as Strategic Policy

• Shifting from ‘Human Rights’ to ‘Strategic Interest’ (32:33–33:29):
  • Brownback argues for moving religious freedom from a ‘human rights’ to a US ‘strategic interest’ policy framework, akin to the Cold War battle of ideas.

9. American Institutions and Corporate Complicity

• National Basketball Association Example (33:29–35:17):
  • Critique of high-profile partnerships with Chinese entities implicated in human rights abuses.
  • “We can’t continue to have U.S. companies... shilling for the Chinese Communist Party.” (33:41, Brownback)
  • Notes Hollywood’s avoidance of negative portrayals of the Chinese regime.

10. What Should the Free World Do?

• Policy Recommendations (35:17–37:41):
  • Recognize and enter the ideological battle—“There’s one solution here. We win, they lose.” (35:29, Brownback quoting Reagan)
  • Elevate religious freedom as a core value in international engagement.
  • Host high-level meetings with persecuted faith leaders.
  • Redraw maps to reflect Tibet and Xinjiang as occupied territories, highlighting China’s expansionism.
  • Direct engagement: meet the Dalai Lama, support Tibetan self-determination.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

The Power of Advocacy

• “We wrote a letter and we got him out of prison. Let’s do more of that.”
  – Sam Brownback (11:38)

On Sanctions and Perspective

• “I consider it the highest honor I’ve ever achieved... That's a badge of honor. I accept.”
  – Sam Brownback, on being sanctioned by China (15:26)

Falun Gong and CCP Paranoia

• “They thought, we’ve got to kill and wipe out these guys. And they have been absolutely ruthless about it.”
  – Sam Brownback (22:25)

The Challenge of Confronting the CCP

• “The people of the United States are ahead of the elites in the country on this... That Chinese Communist Party is ruthless and seeks to run the world.”
  – Sam Brownback (23:59)

Technology as Oppressive Export

• “We’re seeing these sort of surveillance systems... We’ve really got to get our act together to confront them.”
  – Sam Brownback (29:32)

Religion and Strategic Interests

• “I want to move religious freedom out of the category of human rights and put it in the category of strategic interest of the United States...”
  – Sam Brownback (32:33)

The Bottom Line

• “China is at war with God. That’s a war they are not going to win, and we need to make sure of it.”
  – Sam Brownback (38:16)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 05:17 | Brownback’s personal background and rural life | | 10:50 | Origin of religious liberty advocacy | | 12:24 | Anti-human trafficking legislation | | 14:01 | Ambassador-at-Large: firsthand experiences | | 15:13 | Being banned from China, targeting Xinjiang abuse | | 19:02 | Regret over China trade status vote | | 20:27 | CCP’s ‘war on faith’ explained | | 22:13 | Falun Gong as existential threat to CCP | | 25:26 | Outline of ongoing “three genocides” | | 29:14 | Technology and surveillance as policy tools | | 30:28 | Testimony: Mirigul Turson, Uyghur survivor | | 32:33 | Religious freedom as US strategic interest | | 33:29 | NBA and corporate complicity | | 35:17 | Policy recommendations and call to action | | 38:16 | Closing quote: “China is at war with God...” |

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a sobering yet energizing examination of the Chinese Communist Party’s campaign against religious belief, as witnessed by Ambassador Sam Brownback. With stories from persecuted individuals, institutional critiques, and clear policy recommendations, Gingrich and Brownback underscore the urgent need for the US—and the free world—to confront Chinese totalitarianism not just as a human rights issue, but as a central contest of values. Brownback’s central message: The fight for religious liberty must be a core strategic pillar as America navigates its most significant global rivalry.

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Transcript

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[Newt Gingrich]

Welcome to New World podcast on the iHeart podcast network. Coming up, Ambassador Sam Brownback joins me to discuss his new book, China's War on Faith and why he believes the Chinese Communist Party is engaged in a global war against religious freedom.

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[Parent (Lingokids User)]

with my mom and dad living in Orange county, when we bring my five and seven year old to visit, we are sometimes in for a two hour drive that could feel like ten.

[Camper/Parent (Lingokids Promoter)]

Oh, as an avid camper, I know all about this. We'll pack up the RV and know this is either going to be the trip of a lifetime or a complete disaster.

[Parent (Lingokids User)]

Which is why we load up the iPads with Lingokids before we even pull out of the driveway.

[Camper/Parent (Lingokids Promoter)]

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[Parent (Lingokids User)]

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[Newt Gingrich]

I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Ambassador Sam Brownback. He has spent decades in public service and on the front lines in the fight for religious freedom around the world. He represented his home state of Kansas in both the United States House of Representatives and the Senate, where he was a key sponsor of the International Religious freedom Act of 1998. He later served as the 46th Governor of Kansas before being appointed by President Trump as ambassador at large for International Religious Freedom, a post he held from 2018 to 2021. Ambassador Brownback serves as co chair of the International Religious Freedom Summit, Chairman of the National Committee for Religious Freedom, and a member of the Board of Directors of the National Endowment for Democracy. He's joining me to discuss his new book, China's War on Faith. Sam, welcome and thank you for joining me on NewtsWorld.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

Oh, gosh, Newts, great to join you. I've been a part of Newt's world since 1994, running for Congress, so. And you were a wonderful speaker and led the charge and brought us out of the wilderness after over 40 years of being a minority party in the House of Representatives. Just a pleasure to be a part of your world. Nude.

[Newt Gingrich]

Listen, it's a great thrill for me to have this chance to talk with you. You're such an interesting guy and has such a journey on your own. Can we take just a minute and start kind of with your own story? What was your life like growing up in Parker, Kansas?

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

Looking back on it now, to me it was idyllic. Mom and dad there all the time. The entire family engaged in the operation. It was a struggle. You're struggling against markets that you have no control over. You're struggling against nature, which you have no control over. You can pray, and we do, but we were there and we were together. And it was really before welfare reform grasped a lot of rural communities. Afterwards, you really saw a lot of families falling apart, rural areas and all over the country. And part of it I really laid at welfare, just not having that nuclear family that had to stay together. And we did. We had to stay together. And I didn't appreciate it at the time because we worked hard seven days a week, I should say six days, because we would get portions of Sunday off if it wasn't harvest season or planting season. It was really good, Newt. It was wonderful and I was fine with it, and I was fine with continuing that as my lifestyle. But one of my brothers wanted a farm and I did, too. And he got the tap from dad and I didn't. So I headed off to school.

[Newt Gingrich]

But in the process, while you're doing all this work, you also maybe showed your future career because you were elected state president of the Future Farmers of America.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

I was. And that was really kind of my gateway into politics. I'd never met a congressman before. And when I'm state president, future farmers, I come to Washington, I meet my congressman, Joe Scubitz, and I listened to what he did and what they were doing. And I was going, this is a great job. I wonder how you get a job like this. And then later was able to come in and represent much of the same area that Joe Skubits did years later. It was a wonderful introduction in a way, kind of defined a different path than the one I was on, farming.

[Newt Gingrich]

When did you decide for sure you were going to run for office?

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

Really? Not until probably the 90s. I wanted to do it. I was interested in doing it. I thought about running for the state legislature. I wanted to be engaged in politics, but it really got into the 90s. I was a White House fellow in a George H.W. bush administration, 1991. I got familiar with the Congress more there, although I didn't want to be a part of it at that time because Republicans were always in the minority. And I don't want to go back there and just lob bombs and not get anything really done. And then the chance came up when my congressman, Jim Slattery at the time, who was a friend and still a friend of mine, decided to run for governor of Kansas, opening up that slot. And I had an instant peace, really, at that moment in the 1994 cycle to run for Congress. I'd been Secretary of Agriculture for the state of Kansas at the time and thought, you know, this feels right. Even though I continued to have this internal struggle about, I don't want to do this because we're just going to be in the minority and never get anything done. But you led the revolution. And I think there were 72 freshmen in that class, and things changed.

[Newt Gingrich]

You really, I think, kind of understate your background because you're a student body president of Kansas State University. You're class president at the University of Kansas Law School. You become the youngest secretary of the Kansas Department of Agriculture. You really had quite a early career serving people and being involved in understanding and bringing people together.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

Well, I was blessed. Blessed to be a third child of four. That also helps you in kind of figuring out how do you negotiate and bring people together. That helps some, too. But I'd really been blessed to be able to be a part of a lot of different things. And then God's continued that blessing to allow me to be in the Congress, the Senate, governor, ambassador. I feel like I'm the most blessed man I know.

[Newt Gingrich]

You really became deeply committed on religious liberty back while you were in Congress. What attracted you to that issue?

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

I had a staff member when I first went into the Senate, Sharon Pate, who had worked in this field and back then, this is 1997, there was just very little activity going on in religious freedom. There was a few people, but just not much at all. But she was one. And she came into my office and worked there and she said, hey, we can start contacting some of these places around the world that are persecuting Christians at that time was working on primarily, we can maybe make their lives easier, might be able to keep them alive in jail. And so I said, well, let's do it. I remember we wrote the dictator in Uzbekistan and it was a Christian missionary that was in jail there. And she said, maybe we can, by just drawing attention to him, we can keep him alive. I doubt that we'll get him out of jail, but we can give him a profile. They might treat him a little better, at least not kill him. So I said, well, that's right. And I wrote a letter. And then, you know, it wasn't a few weeks later they let him out of prison. And I said, we wrote a letter and we got him out of prison. Let's do more of that. And that really kind of hooked me was that when I could see that you could use a position in the United States Senate to help people just simply be able to practice their faith in places where this was not allowed and was even deadly for him, that really hooked me into work in this movement. And I feel like really right now, note that it's a calling. It's something I've been called to do, and I love the calling.

[Newt Gingrich]

When you were in the Senate, you passed the Trafficking Victims Protection Act 2000, which really made human trafficking a federal crime and increased protection for victims. I mean, I know how real and how painful the human trafficking problem is. And you were a leader right there from day one, not just on religious liberty, but on liberty for people who were literally often caught in the equivalent of slavery. That was quite an achievement because you got that through in your very first term in the Senate.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

That's the bill that I have hanging on my wall at home that I'm the most pleased to have done been a part of, because I think it really did help ignite a movement against this modern form of slavery. And it has a double sense to me too. And you as a historian would particularly appreciate this. My mother was raised on the property where John Brown would stay when he was in Kansas, and you recall he was referred to as Oswatomi Brown. My mom was actually raised on that property where he would stay with his sister and brother in law. And on Sundays when US Grandkids would get too rambunctious. They would say, oh, go out back and look for the tunnel that Brown had here in case the pro slavery forces came across the line. We're looking for him. He'd go hide out in this tunnel and we'd look, never find it. But it was just there was that kind of tie with this aversion to slavery of any form, and particularly modern slavery in the late 1990s and 2000s. What is this doing still going on in the world? So I was just deeply opposed to it.

[Newt Gingrich]

You kept your word. You promised term limits in the Senate, and then you became governor, and then President Trump nominated you to serve as ambassador at large for international religious freedom in 2017. That puts you in a totally international relations, different kind of position, surrounded around the world by people who are being persecuted. What do you think you learned from that experience?

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

My faith grew. I was around people that have been persecuted for their faith and willing to put their lives on the line. That lost family members because of their faith, and it challenged my faith. I've been a man of faith. I'm a follower of Jesus. But these are people that when their life was on the line, they counted their life of no regard rather than to not follow Jesus. I would see that and I would study that in these people. Their faith was just so real. And some of them were converts from Islam to Christianity and then facing even family members trying to kill them. It really challenged my faith in a beautiful way. And that was the key thing I took away from it.

[Newt Gingrich]

You were obviously pretty darn effective because by July 2020, the Chinese government imposes a ban on you from even entering China anymore. Did you feel that was sort of a badge of honor?

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

I consider it the highest honor I've ever achieved. Newt and I was the first wave. They've since have done a lot of others. But it was partially in response to. I was studying what was going on in Sin John at the time and this beta test of a virtual police state that the Chinese Communist Party was putting in place over the Muslim Uyghurs at the hands of a party chairman by the name of Chen Kuan Guo. And I'm saying this guy is the himler of the Chinese Communist Party. He's the hitman. He's the guy they put over the Tibetan Buddhists first, and then they put him over the Muslims. I said, we've got to sanction him from the US and we'd never sanctioned a Politburo member before. And so I went internally and worked hard to do that. And we did. Secretary Pompeo. President Trump did, who by the way, is the first president in my estimation since Kennedy to confront China. And we got Chen Quanguo sanctioned from the United States as a Politburo member. And in return, I was one of five that they sanctioned to return. And I thought, yes, that's a badge of honor. I accept.

[Newt Gingrich]

When we come back, explore the Chinese Communist Party's War on Faith and why so many policymakers get china wrong this

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July 4th, come celebrate at America's Block Party Hosted by America 250, America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Experience music performances from major artists, patriotic tributes and the kickoff to Giving Forth, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history. It's more than just fireworks. Learn more about this landmark [e-mail]

[Parent (Lingokids User)]

with my mom and dad living in Orange county, when we bring my five and seven year old to visit, we are sometimes in for a two hour drive that could feel like 10.

[Camper/Parent (Lingokids Promoter)]

Oh, as an avid camper, I know all about this. We'll pack up the RV and know this is either going to be the trip of a lifetime or a complete, complete disaster.

[Parent (Lingokids User)]

Which is why we load up the iPads with Lingokids before we even pull out of the driveway.

[Camper/Parent (Lingokids Promoter)]

It's what dreams are made of. Lingokids keeps kids engaged and quiet with over 4, 000 interactive games, songs and shows that kids simply cannot get enough of.

[Parent (Lingokids User)]

You can pack whatever you think you'll need, but lingokids is the only entertainment you'll need for a stress free car ride.

[Camper/Parent (Lingokids Promoter)]

Or really any ride, plane, train, hovercraft, whatever.

[Parent (Lingokids User)]

Download Lingokids for free today or unlock

[Camper/Parent (Lingokids Promoter)]

even more amazing content with LingoKids.

[Parent (Lingokids User)]

Plus choose the yearly plan and save up to 60%. Search LingoKids in the app Store or

[Camper/Parent (Lingokids Promoter)]

Google Play Lingokids Everything kids love.

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[Newt Gingrich]

You stated that you voted yes on granting China's most favored nation status in 2000. But ever since you regretted that vote? Frankly, I favored China getting most favored nation status and I look back now and think it was a huge mistake. But why did you believe that this was the right vote?

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

I was a free trade guy. I'd worked in the trade rep's office in George H.W. bush's terms. I'm an agriculture guy. We're heavily dependent upon trade. I think anything you could do to open up trade would eventually loosen the political system up. And that's where I was wrong and that I really, I wanted to believe it. The Billy Graham association of Billy Graham people were for it, saying this will help open up China. I ended up selling myself on it, even though a guy like Frank Wolfe, Chris Smith, who you know very well, were opposed to it. And those were people I look to often to really think through these things. But I went along with it and it was a huge mistake. It worked during the Deng Xiaoping era. They did open up more. But since then, and you get a guy like Xi Jinping, who I believe is a reincarnation of Mao, if I can use those kind of terms. He is just using what we had worked with them on to now militarize China and really seek to take over the world.

[Newt Gingrich]

Your book, which is very important, opens with a very sharp warning that says, quote, the Chinese Communist Party is waging a war on faith. When you're writing from a great deal of personal knowledge and experience, do you really see that as a war against people who have beliefs?

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

I do. I think Newt, and again, this is something you taught me as a historian. I think they studied the fall of the Soviet Union, the Chinese Communist Party did, and they see the weaknesses of communism, I think in their own analysis. And communist dictatorships seem to have about a 70 year life expectancy. And they studied that fall of the Soviet Union. They saw the role of the Polish Catholics in bringing it down. And a Polish Pope who says be not afraid and it's over. Then they see the role of the Jewish refused Nixon undermining the authority of the Soviet Union when they just simply seek to immigrate. And they say we've got to suppress people of faith. And they've been ruthless about it. They've been dogmatic. They have spent billions of dollars annually. They've done things like forced organ harvesting on the Falun Gong. That's is this sort of Buddhist Taoist, indigenous Chinese religious movement. And the other piece of that too though is a flip side of it. Newt is That I see is that they fear religious freedom far more than they fear things like our aircraft carriers or nuclear weapons. So we should really be pressing this as a key advantage that we have with our belief in religious freedom. And they're viewing it as an existential threat.

[Newt Gingrich]

I've never fully understood the Falun Gong, which, as you know, is a breathing exercise system, but it puts autonomy in the individual. And for some reason, it just drives the Chinese Communist nuts.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

That one's puzzled me for the longest time until about six months ago. I'm really interviewing, I'm meeting with them. I go to their headquarters in the United States, whatever. I mean, they really don't claim a headquarters, but a key place that they have. And it finally dawned on me new this is an indigenous Chinese movement that went from zero adherence to 90 million in seven years. When they let it free, they had more people practicing Falun Gong, this spiritual exercise movement, and it freaked the Chinese out. And they thought this thing could really take off because it's much more indigenous than communism is. Communism is a European import, industrial era, European import. And all that the Falun Gong want is to go back to the old Chinese civilization that they had that has thousands of years of history and beauty to it. They became the really ground zero of the attack on religious people by the Chinese Communist Party. They thought, we've got to kill and wipe out these guys. And they have been absolutely ruthless about it. And the Falun Gong, in my estimation, could be one of our greatest allies in our current confrontation with the Chinese Communist Party.

[Newt Gingrich]

You write that the Chinese Communist Party has killed more of its own citizens than any regime in modern history. I agree with you. But it's amazing how hard it is to get our academic community to understand that or admit it.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

And even our elites, Newt, because we've been making a ton of money there and they've been making more off of us and then converting it into weaponry. I think the people of the United States are ahead of the elites in the country on this. Clearly, again, they don't trust the Chinese Communist Party. And it's not the Chinese, it's a Chinese Communist Party. My wife and I have adopted a girl from China 25 years ago, and we love her. And I love the Chinese culture. I think it's amazing. But that Chinese Communist Party is ruthless and seeks to run the world. And they've developed surveillance systems that they freely share with other dictators to make them better dictators to have an authoritarian run world. And as the former head of the Tibetan government in Exile once told me, he said, you know, either the world will change China or China will change the world. That's the sort of confrontation we truly are in today.

[Newt Gingrich]

So you go back to the Falun Gong for a second. Jiang Zemin, who's not seen as a hardliner in the same sense that Xi Jinping is now or that Mao was. But it's Jiang Jinming who orders that the Falun Gong has to be eradicated. Talking about a totalitarian worldview, they really went after destroying everybody who believed in what is essentially a breathing exercise that helps you re center yourself in the Confucian tradition.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

This isn't a fair analogy, but this is akin to somewhat to yoga for Indians where there's also a spiritual aspect to it that you have in the Chinese. But it takes off and I think that's what freaks out the Chinese Communist Party. Now Jin Jamin orders it, the eradication which I call a genocide of the Falun Gong. And I consider they have three genocides going on right now. Muslim Uyghurs, which we've already called it that, the Tibetan Buddhist, which they did early and they continue and it's a cultural genocide for certain. And then the Falun Gong and that's of a country that's got the second largest economy in the world, that much of the world freely trades with, that we do as well. And I think we have to break these supply chains that we've got with China going on now note particularly in these key areas where we're dependent upon them for rare earth minerals, rare medicines, anything that is strategic and completely necessary for us, we have got to break out of the Chinese Communist Party supply chain.

[Newt Gingrich]

Coming up, we'll explore how technology has become one of the Chinese Communist Party's most powerful tools and what life is like for those targeted by the regime.

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[Newt Gingrich]

I want to explore also this whole notion of how technology has now become one of the Chinese Communist Party's most powerful tools and in a sense something we need to be very sober about because that technology could show up in

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

the US and it has, it has shown up in the United States. We're seeing these sort of surveillance systems. A Chinese car manufactured today is really just a computer on wheels with surveillance systems and cameras. And where is all this information being fed back to? We saw that recent charge made of lawnmowers of all things. Well, what is happening with that? And what about the information being fed in through things like TikTok and the algorithms that they move people towards frivolity instead of education? We are seeing this stuff now taking place and we've really got to be much more sober minded about it. I think the Chinese Communist Party is a much more difficult foe than the Soviet Union, the communists there ever were and we really got to get our act together to confront them.

[Newt Gingrich]

An example that you bring up is a Uyghur survivor, Mirigul Turson. And what happened to her? Could you describe a little bit? It's so compelling. So clearly had a huge impact on you.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

Had a huge impact on me. You know, Newt, I used to get to interview people and I'd talk to him for 30 minutes, my office and advocate for him. What I got to do in this book was spend time with individuals and really get into their cases. And hers is just an incredible. Has triplets in Egypt. They trick her into coming back home. They take her babies away from her when she gets back to sin John where she was from a Remchi. They persecute, they pound on. She's a nursing mother at the time. After a few months they let her go back. I give two of her children back to her that she says, where's my son? Where's the third one is to come back tomorrow. And they give her his dead body and said he wasn't strong enough to survive. They killed him and all along they're driving into her, you know, okay, the president of China can let you go, but where's your God? Why doesn't he get you out of here? They're just driving to try to really drive faith out of people. They put a Chinese to live with them in their house to live in the same room with her while she's out of prison. They bring her back in, torture her more. She has any number of people that are disappeared while she's there of women doesn't know what happens to them on top of all of it. In Islam you're to bury your dead within 24 hours after she loses her son. They can't find any mom to bury the child in their town because they're all afraid of the Chinese communists and what they do if they help the family. They have to drive hundreds of miles to find any mom that would bury her child. That's how effective and thorough the Chinese communist and how cruel they are.

[Newt Gingrich]

And it's not just anti Muslim, but it's anti any religion which is competitive with the Chinese.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

Yeah, it's a higher authority than the Chinese government. If you answer to an authority that's higher than the government, you're a problem to them. And that's why I think this is such a strategic issue. I want to move religious freedom out of the category of human rights and put it in the category of strategic interest of the United States to press this issue similar to what Reagan did against the Soviet Union and what he would travel the country talking about. The godless communists and what they were doing to the Jewish refused Nixon. He really saw this is a way you can connect to the American public. It is also completely true about communism. And I think we need to do that because we're going to have to get in this sustained campaign against the Chinese Communist Party that could last decades in our confrontation with them. And the sooner we get about it, the better our options are.

[Newt Gingrich]

You sort of single out the National Basketball association, and it's sort of a case study in selling out human rights. Walk us through that for just a minute.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

You know, you got a current example, and Steph Curry signs a $400 million contract with a Chinese company that's been banned a portion of their products in the United States. And he's one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Just amazing shooting player. And he lends his name to the authenticating of a Chinese company that's banned in the United States because they use forced labor harvesting. That's my point. We can't continue to have U.S. companies and people and goods promoting and shilling for the Chinese Communist Party. And I think Steph Curry's a great American, an amazing guy, won the Olympics for us this last year. But that just keeps going on and on. And Hollywood, the last time they did a negative movie on China was 1997. I went to a recent movie of theirs, Hail Mary. And in the movie, the pilot of the rocket ship has a Chinese Communist Party flag on his sleeve. And he's kind of one of the heroes of the movie, or at least one of the responsible figures in the movie. No, you can't keep doing this and telling the American public this is all fine. It's not. And we should stand up against this totalitarianism that seeks to take down the liberal world order of individual rights. I call it really Newt, the CCP versus Western civilization. That's, I think, really the scale of clash we're in.

[Newt Gingrich]

What specifically would you recommend that America and the free world do differently if they want to help ensure that Chinese totalitarianism does not win?

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

I think first and foremost we've got to recognize we're in a fight. That was the Reagan thing that he did to start off with. He said detente doesn't work. There's one solution here. We win, they lose. I think we've got to realize we're in this kind of fight and get in it to stay in it, to win. I think we have to elevate the issue of religious freedom because it's so powerful. But tool against Communism. And in our 250th year anniversary, it is completely American. This is our base value. We're best when we stand on our values. And this is clearly one of them. I think the President, Secretary of State need to start bringing in members that have been persecuted from China of all different faiths into the White House, into their offices. I think we need to host a high level meeting in the White House or maybe the Congress can do it of religious leaders from around the world and world leaders to talk about religious freedom as a core human right for us to be able to build a free world towards in the future. It's the human right of the soul. It's the right that if we get it correct, we can stop some of these wars of civilization back and forth, particularly that we're seeing setting up in Africa, and we can confront the Chinese Communist Party. We've got to elevate that and use it as a strategic issue moving forward. And then I also think we ought to do things like go to Dharmsala, India and meet with the Dalai Lama on substantive talks about what's it look like for Tibetan Buddhism to actually be free and people to be able to practice that faith. I think we need to go in on a very substantive basis discussing these sort of things. And then finally, Newton, this is provocative, I know, but I think we ought to start putting out maps that show China as it actually is, which Tibet's never been a part of China, Xinjiang, they took over. Show the actual map. Tibet's no more a part of China than Poland was a part of Russia. Let's just show the people what the Chinese land mass actually looks like and what they've actually taken over as border countries that they control for the sake of communism.

[Newt Gingrich]

I don't think that's particularly provocative. It would, of course, drive the Chinese Communist dictatorship crazy. Sam, as always, we've been friends for many, many years. I admire greatly the work you and Callista did together on religious liberty. I'm delighted that you continue this cause because it's so central both to our relationship to God and to our liberties. Your new book, China's War on Faith, is available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. And I want to thank you for joining me.

[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

Thank you. And Newt, I'll quote you. China is at war with God. That's a war they are not going to win, and we need to make sure of it.

[Newt Gingrich]

Thank you to my guest, Ambassador Sam Brownlich. New 12 is produced by Gingrich360 and iHeartMedia our executive producer is Garnzi Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. Special thanks to the team at Gingrich360. If you've been enjoying Newts World, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Join me on [e-mail] I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newt's World.

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[Ambassador Sam Brownback]

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