Episode 992: America 250 – George Washington's Forgotten Highway West

Summary

Podcast Summary: Newt’s World – Episode 992: “America 250 – George Washington’s Forgotten Highway West”

Overview of the Episode
In this episode, host Newt Gingrich (former U.S. Speaker of the House and historian) welcomes historian and author Brady Kreitzer to discuss Kreitzer’s book, The National Road: George Washington and America’s First Highway West. The conversation explores George Washington's lifelong obsession with westward expansion, the significance of rivers and roads in early American development, and the pivotal—yet often overlooked—role of Albert Gallatin in realizing the vision of a unified, westward-looking nation. As the U.S. approaches its 250th anniversary, Gingrich and Kreitzer reflect on lessons from America's first great infrastructure project and the enduring importance of ambition, connectivity, and freedom of movement in the American character.

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1. Washington the Surveyor: Foundations of Ambition

[03:03–05:08]

• Gingrich opens by highlighting public perception of George Washington as general and president—but not as a surveyor.
• Kreitzer stresses that Washington was always “an infrastructure nut,” perpetually envisioning how to unlock America’s future in the land west of the Appalachians.
  • Quote: “He lived in a world of sails and ships, but I think he knew the future of America was a world of wagons and wheels.” (Kreitzer, 03:21)
• Washington’s formative experience in the French and Indian War shaped his vision of the Ohio River as the “superhighway west.”
• After 1763, Washington invested heavily—purchasing nearly 70,000 acres over the Appalachians—anticipating westward expansion.

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2. Rivers, Roads, and the Limits of Geography

[06:43–08:43]

• Gingrich and Kreitzer discuss the transformative importance of rivers in the colonial era; rivers were the “interstates” of the time.
  • Kreitzer emphasizes: “These were gifts of Mother Nature that could take you as far as you were willing to travel.” (07:19)
• Washington’s vision fixated on connecting the Potomac and Ohio Rivers—dreaming of canals or connecting roads.
• Canals like the Erie would later further revolutionize transportation, but Washington’s era still looked to water as the key pathway west.

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3. Colonial Identity and the Perils of the West

[08:43–12:36]

• Early on, Washington’s identity was bound to Virginia, and his focus remained state-centric even during the campaign against the French.
• Gingrich observes how remarkably the colonies moved toward a national identity at independence.
• The American “West” (especially Ohio) remained dangerous: Native Americans held sway, the region pulsed with unrest, and settlers (often Scots-Irish) were fiercely independent.
  • Quote: “In the early Republic…I would argue…it’s divided over east and west first.” (Kreitzer, 12:37)
• The “Western Insurrection” (later called the Whiskey Rebellion) revealed an east-west rift that predated the North-South divide.

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4. Five Crises of the Western Frontier

[12:37–15:16]

• Kreitzer details the five crises of Washington’s time:
  1. Discordant ambitions of western settlers (Scots-Irish, anti-establishment).
  2. A formidable Pan-Indian resistance led by Little Turtle.
  3. British forts remaining on U.S. soil after the Revolution.
  4. Spanish control and blockade at the mouth of the Mississippi.
  5. The instability of the western frontier posing direct challenges to U.S. expansion and unity.
• Washington’s answer: connect East and West through physical infrastructure, leading to the vision of the National Road.

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5. Albert Gallatin: Forgotten Architect of Infrastructure

[17:57–21:41]

• Few Americans know of Gallatin, the Swiss-born, French-accented treasury secretary who served four presidents.
• Gallatin believed in bottom-up prosperity, rooted in empowering America’s farmers and clearing obstacles rather than managing every detail.
  • Quote: “He was the conservative answer to Alexander Hamilton.” (Kreitzer, 18:14)
  • Quote: “He balances America’s budget like he manages his own finances.” (Kreitzer, 18:14)
• As Treasury Secretary, Gallatin engineered financing for the Louisiana Purchase, Lewis and Clark, the National Road, and kept the debt low.

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6. Roads vs. Canals: Two Visions

[21:41–23:57]

• Gallatin, familiar with European infrastructure, saw the transformative potential of a national network of roads and canals.
• His 1808 grand plan (never fully realized at the federal level) predicted much later development: “If you look at this massive tome he writes, most of those jobs do get done…he was right.” (21:41)
• He fostered lasting influence by mentoring new Congressmen, building personal connections and practical bridges between regions.

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7. National Road: From Rivers to Highways

[26:01–28:21]

• Gallatin’s “road-centric” model was a break from the river-based vision; it acknowledged that “rivers don’t flow everywhere.”
• The west already had a network of Native American trails (the Mingo Trail, etc.), which the National Road would formalize and improve.
• The National Road extended 683 miles, based on Braddock’s military road and indigenous paths.

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8. The Cumberland/National Road: Building the Republic

[28:45–32:01]

• The initial link (Cumberland, MD to Wheeling, VA) was called the Cumberland Road.
• The feat was massive—7 years, 130 miles—the greatest infrastructure achievement to that point.
• Financing was ingeniously managed: instead of federal taxes, “we’ll take a few cents of every dollar from land sales in Ohio, and we’ll use that to finance the road.” (Kreitzer, 30:28)
• Designated as a postal road, the project met a constitutional mandate and satisfied Jefferson’s demands for federal restraint.

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9. Lasting Impact: The Gift of Movement

[35:24–39:29]

• Kreitzer argues the National Road was both “too late and too early”: by its completion, canals and railroads were ascendant; nonetheless, it made possible the settlement and unity of the Midwest.
  • Quote: “I like to say the National Road was too early and too late at the same time...But…the National Road…is the reason we have a Midwest, and it was their lifeline.” (Kreitzer, 36:57)
• The rediscovery of the road with the advent of the automobile spurred the “Good Roads Movement” and set the template for the U.S. interstate highway system.
• Kreitzer emphasizes the “freedom to move”—a quintessential American liberty that roads, unlike railroads, provide.

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10. Lessons for America at 250

[35:40–41:29]

• The need for national ambition and large-scale infrastructure as central to American identity.
  • Quote: “At the core of patriotism is ambition. Ambition not just for yourself to do well, but for your country to do well.” (Kreitzer, 35:40)
• Gingrich asks what Washington and Gallatin would challenge us to do:
  • Kreitzer responds that they’d ask how America can continue to lead and be a “rising tide that lifts all ships,” especially as freedom faces challenges worldwide.

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11. Notable Quotes and Memorable Insights

• “He lived in a world of sails and ships, but I think he knew the future of America was a world of wagons and wheels.” — Brady Kreitzer (03:21)
• “The difference in the volume you could carry on a river was just astonishing.” — Newt Gingrich (06:43)
• “In the early Republic…I would argue…it’s divided over east and west first.” — Brady Kreitzer (12:37)
• “[Gallatin] balances America’s budget like he manages his own finances.” — Brady Kreitzer (18:14)
• “At the core of patriotism is ambition. Ambition not just for yourself to do well, but for your country to do well.” — Brady Kreitzer (35:40)
• “Roads are the new freedom, the freedom to move.” — Brady Kreitzer (38:32)

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12. Important Timestamps

• [03:03] Washington the surveyor and land speculator
• [08:43] Colonial and national identity; dangers of the west
• [12:37] The five western crises and the east-west divide
• [17:57] Introduction to Albert Gallatin
• [21:41] Gallatin’s vision and Congressional networking
• [26:01] How the National Road replaced rivers and leveraged Native trails
• [28:45] Construction, naming, and political debates of the Cumberland Road
• [30:28] Innovative, federal financing
• [35:24] Lessons for a 250-year-old nation

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Conclusion
This episode offers a deep dive into America’s formative years, revealing how Washington’s and Gallatin’s visions for infrastructure shaped the nation’s ability to expand, unify, and thrive. By connecting the past to the present—and the upcoming 250th anniversary—Kreitzer and Gingrich underscore the enduring importance of ambition, infrastructure, and the freedom to move in the American story. The legacy of the National Road, though sometimes forgotten, is the blueprint for the highways and ambitions that continue to define the nation.

Transcript

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[Child]

mom, can I have Lingokids? Dad? Lingokids, please.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

When did we become the Lingokids house?

[America 250 Announcer]

No idea. Last week it was dinosaurs.

[Child]

This week it's Lingokids.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Why Lingokids?

[Child]

Because it's the best thing ever. We can play games with astronauts, wild animals and superheroes.

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[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

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[Host Newt Gingrich]

Welcome to Newts World podcast on the iHeart podcast network. I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Brady Kreitzer. He's a historian of the American frontier, the award winning author of the Whiskey Rebellion, Gayasuta and the Fall of Indian America and Hessians. His work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, the Journal of the American Revolution. He hosts the acclaimed podcast Dispatches and appears regularly on into the Wild, Frontier, Outlaws and Lawmen and Fox Nations, Blood on the Bridge, the Battle of Lexington and Concord. He teaches at Robert Morris University and he's joining me to discuss his latest book, the National George Washington and America's First Highway West. Brady welcome and thank you for joining me on News world.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's a pleasure.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

Brady. Most Americans know about Washington as a general and as president, but your book also introduces us to Washington the surveyor. Why do you think that side of Washington is important to understanding who he was?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

You know, George Washington, his whole life, if you look at his different experiences from the French and Indian War through the Revolution, and even his presidency, he always had an eye for the land, and I think that's something that's lost on a lot of people. He was sort of an infrastructure nut, in a way. He was always looking at how to improve the land, how to make the land work for his colony and then his country, because he believed that the future of the continent, maybe not even in his own time, but certainly in generations ahead, was over the Appalachian Mountains in what he would call the West. You know, he lived in a world of sails and ships, but I think he knew the future of America was a world of wagons and wheels. And he always had his eye on the West. That was the great prize. Even in the Revolution. Places like Philadelphia and Boston were in the here and now. But the future was really all about what we would call today the Midwest, reaching toward the Mississippi.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

You know, I think that's an important thing to remember. I go down occasionally to Little Washington, which I think he laid out as a surveyor when he was 19. And at that time, that was the frontier, and of course, that's now east of the Shenandoah Mountains. So it lets you know just how thin the settlements were prior to the American Revolution. Now, you describe Washington, who had a passion for the land all his life. In fact, at one point, I think he may have been the largest landowner in the continental United States. Why do you think he got so totally engaged as a landowner, but also as somebody who just valued having land?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

That's a great question. So Washington's first real military experience is going to be in what's today western Pennsylvania and western Maryland and western Virginia in the French and Indian War. And I think that's a really formative experience, not just in his military career, but in his understanding of American growth and expansion, because he sees the enormous potential, really in the Ohio River. He understands that the Appalachian Mountains hem in the British world in the thirteen colonies. But the Ohio river is the superhighway west. And if you put a boat on that river, it could take you as far south as New Orleans on the Mississippi, or if you went north to the Missouri, even to the Rocky Mountains. And for George Washington, I think that was his grand vision. So after the French and Indian war ends in 1763, he begins this sort of land speculating mania. In a way, he can't buy enough land. We'd like to say he's land rich and cash poor. Because what he's doing is, even though it appears like he's putting all of his eggs in one basket, he's investing in the future. As you mentioned, speaker, he'll own almost 70,000 acres of land over the Appalachian Mountains, even up until literally the battles of Lexington and Concord. He's signing land deals in the Kanawha River Valley of today West Virginia. He just has this grand vision for the republic and he knows the American people have a will to move west, but they don't yet have a way. And I think that's where my book really picks up.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

But in a sense, it's hard for people nowadays to realize rivers mattered. They were the only way. At a time when you have horse drawn and ox drawn, wagons on dirt roads, if there were roads at all, the difference in the volume you could carry on a river was just astonishing. So there's this instinct about the importance of the rivers. It seems not obvious today, but at the time they would have understood that that was the key highway for everything that Wendy had done.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

I always challenge readers and students to think about America's river systems, lakes and creeks, the way we think of our modern interstate, because that's how George Washington saw it. These were gifts of mother Nature that could take you as far as you were willing to travel. But they ended pretty harshly for Washington at the Mississippi, simply because the river of his world, the Potomac and the Ohio river, the river of the future that led to all that. There was about 130 mile gap where there were no rivers that connected them, which became kind of his obsession. But he viewed these rivers as the way to reach distant places. Just the way we think of our interstate highway system today.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

And of course the interim period, because we're talking about a period before railroads is actually to build canals. And so you get the great canal structures of which I guess the Erie was the biggest. And they further, using water, change everything.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Water was your friend, you know, when Washington dreamed of connecting the Potomac to the Ohio. And that's a landscape he knows intimately. Well, he did envision it as a canal. It would end up being a road. But again for him it was a seafaring culture. You know, we were in a country of semis or even Conestoga wagons, yet we would be so for him, he always had water. And as the key, do you think,

[Host Newt Gingrich]

in the early phases, when he's out there as a surveyor and then initially as a member of the Virginia militia, at that point, is he thinking about America or is he assuming the British system but trying to develop economically within that framework?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Well, his focus, and I think because none of us can see the future, right, but his focus was always, interestingly enough, on the colony of Virginia. I mean, he always put Virginia first. So when he first entered the Ohio river Valley in 1753, at 21 years old, he was marching as a major in the Virginia militia. And then he returns in 54 and 55, all under the flag of Virginia. But when you hit 1758, you have this massive kind of colony wide effort to defeat the French. The new road they're going to build into the west doesn't begin in Virginia, it begins in Pennsylvania. And to your question, all the while on that campaign which Washington is a part of, 26, 27 years old, he's complaining that this new road is coming out of Philadelphia. This is going to be a permanent road. And that means all that commerce and all that wealth after the war that they'll win if they beat the French is going to go to Philadelphia and not Virginia. And by that point, Virginia for five years has spent innumerable blood and treasure building roads into the west, investing troops and building forts in the west, and again even to the American Revolution and beyond. Virginia is always front and center in his mind. Because I do believe he sees himself as a Virginian first, even as president, even if he gives lip service to the idea of all Americans and himself being the president. At his core, he's a Virginian. And I think if you look at a lot of the laws he pursues, the policies he pursues, he's still very Virginia centric. And that's just part of growing up in a colonial world.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

It takes a while to start moving from the thirteen colonies towards an identity that we are Americans, which in a sense makes I think, the Declaration of Independence. Even more amazing that you had these folks who come together write a universal document as opposed to colonial documents. You make a point that the west was actually dangerous and that we had gradually crowded Native Americans. But during virtually all of Washington's life, Ohio will remain the battleground. Ohio still remains a very heavily Native American dominated area and very dangerous for the colonists. And that's after the Seven Years War where we had fought with the French and Indians, although we also had Indian allies. And it was really at that point, Washington is taking over a country and leading a country which has a western frontier that's very unstable, both in terms of Native Americans, but. But also in terms of colonists who sometimes resent the east rather than identify with East. Talk a little bit about the complexity of the western region during Washington's first term.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

I would be happy to. This is actually, Mr. Speaker, the topic of my forthcoming book in 2027.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

So as a fellow author. So what is the title of your forthcoming book?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

We're tentatively. And you know how this goes in a perfect world, it'll be called Commander in Chief, How George Washington Won the West and Saved a Nation in Crisis. I think we'll be good with Commander in Chief, but editors like to have their way with your title sometimes, so we'll see how that goes.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

All right.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Everything you said is spot on. There is a series of what I would describe as five crises that dominate the west in Washington's time, and it is very much front and center in his administration. The first is the uncontrollable, I guess, differences in ambition and desires of the settlers that you mentioned. They're mostly Scots, Irish. They're not entirely American in the way that Easterners are, and they certainly wouldn't say they were. They're very suspicious of outsiders. They came to America because they suffered under landlordism, as they called it in England, and they wanted to get away from that, so they're fiercely independent. This will, of course, erupt into what we call the Whiskey Rebellion. And at the time, it wasn't called that in newspapers. They called it the Western insurrection. Because, Mr. Speaker, we always learn. And you, as a Pennsylvania native, transplant to the south, at one point in your life, you know, we always learn that America is divided between north and south, and that will be true. But in the early Republic, I would argue, and this is the crux of really all my work, that it's divided over east and west first. And these Westerners are very problematic. For Washington, the Whiskey Rebellion will be called the Western insurrection in its own time, and every newspaper in America calls it that. So that is compounded by a growing, I'd say, independence movement, resistance movement amongst Native Americans in Ohio, led by a Miami sachem named Michikanaqua, or Little Turtle, he forms this massive Western confederation of dozens of tribes, which has never happened before, to solely resist American expansion. Coupled with that, you have the British, who are still occupying forts in Ohio and Michigan and Illinois and Indiana and the Great Lakes, and they're supposed to have left after the Revolution. And they haven't because they don't think we'll be around for long. And the Spanish who control Louisiana are blockading the Mississippi River. So all of these things compound together to not only jeopardize George Washington's 60,000 acre empire he's built for himself, but any one of them, if they're successful, would completely stifle western expansion. So to me, this is one of the parts of Washington's presidency that we just don't tackle enough. And the way he wanted to solve all these problems was by building some kind of a connection, a physical infrastructure connection between east and west, which will end up being the National Road.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

When we come back, we'll meet one of the most influential figures most Americans have never heard of, Albert Gallatin, and explore how his vision for roads, commerce and westward expansion helped turn George Washington's dream of a connected nation into reality.

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[Child]

Dad? Lingokids, please.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

When did we become the Lingokids house?

[America 250 Announcer]

No idea. Last week it was dinosaurs.

[Child]

This week it was Lingokids.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Why Lingokids?

[Child]

Because it's the best thing ever. We can play games with astronauts, wild animals and superheroes.

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With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs and shows, LingoKids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids.

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So no dinosaurs.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

And dinosaurs, Mango, kids, everything kids love. Download it for free.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

So few people know Galatin. He's overshadowed in a sense by Hamilton, although he also has a statue in front of the Treasury. Share with us who Gallatin was and why he deserves to be considered a much bigger figure in understanding early America.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Albert Gallatin is born in Geneva, which is today part of Switzerland, but wasn't at the time it was an independent kingdom. And he'll come to America in 1780. He's short, he's very punchy, he's bald, he's got pointed features, a thick French accent. And he comes to America in the middle of the revolution and settles in Boston. And he says Boston's terribly boring. And he moves way out west to southwestern Pennsylvania, Fayette county for us Pennsylvanians. And there he sees this amazing wilderness and he sees nothing but potential. And he really sets himself apart in the frontier as like a very brilliant financial mind. He'll become a US Senator, he'll become a member of the House of Representatives. And when Thomas Jefferson's Democratic Republican party really takes hold and he's elected in 1800 to be president, Gallatin is his obvious choice for treasury secretary. And the way I like to talk about him is that he was the conservative answer to Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton had this centralized government view of the economy. He viewed himself like someone who would manipulate, I think, pieces on a chessboard, moving and making the American economy flourish. Albert Gallatin had the exact opposite opinion. He was as brilliant easily as Hamilton, but he viewed America from the bottom up. He believed America was a nation of farmers because he came from that community. And he didn't believe needed to be made successful. He believed they just needed the government to clear the way for them to succeed themselves. So in that regard, Gallatin is the conservative Hamilton in a way. And he's our longest serving treasury secretary. He'll serve four presidents during his time in office. He'll finance the Louisiana Purchase the Lewis and Clark expedition, the national road, and the War of 1812. And all the while, most amazingly, and I know you appreciate this, Mr. Speaker, he lowers the national debt, and a lot of people don't know that number actually can go down. They think it only goes up in their own time. That's all we've seen. So Gallatin is this brilliant mind, but he never loses his, I think, what I would call Western ethos. Simplicity, practicality, hardworking. He balances America's budget like he manages his own finances. I think he's just so fascinating.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

So he has this vision. I mean, on the one hand, as you point out, he comes out of Geneva, which is a pretty sophisticated city, ends up being bored by Boston. So he goes to southwestern Pennsylvania in what was then really the wilderness. I mean, he's out on the cutting edge of European civilization, and yet he develops this very sophisticated sense of how to knit the country together by having a transportation system that'll work. And he's able to transcend politics, the very fact that he could serve four presidents. He meets Washington for the first time in 1784 and starts to really argue for the kind of improvements that would bring the country together largely, I think, more through roads than through canals, which makes him different. Why do you think Gallatin was so persuasive?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Yeah, he and Washington would meet in a tiny cabin, 14 by 14ft, in southwestern Pennsylvania in 1784. But they shared this amazing vision for what America could be. So for Gallatin, he came from, as you've mentioned, a European world that was filled with canals and highways and toll roads, and he saw how it allowed the continent to flourish. And when he looked at America, he just saw vast potential because we didn't have any of that. I mean, before the national road, you know, our federal infrastructure was literally four lighthouses. That's all we maintained. And we weren't even great at that. So he believed if you had a nationwide infrastructure program, the full might and power of America could be unleashed because people just needed the opportunity to succeed. So in 1808, he releases this grand vision for the republic that includes, of course, the national Road reaching toward the Mississippi. It includes canals through the Delmarva Peninsula and the Great Dismal Swamp. There's improvements to New England and beyond. It would be enormously expensive. And it's never passed. Congress will never pass it. But, you know, in the next 30 years. The interesting thing is, if you look at this massive tome he writes, most of those jobs do get done sometimes at the Federal level, mostly at the state level. And as it turns out, he was right. I mean, it unleashed America's financial ability to exploit its natural resources, whether it be coal or timber or even still today, natural gas. And that was really all from the ambitious mind of Albert Gallatin.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

You make a point, which is sort of fascinating, that Gallatin really represents the West. He has somehow gone from Geneva to Western Pennsylvania and become a true Westerner. And in that sense, there's a significant difference in worldview between Washington. As an Easterner who's interested in developing the west, but not particularly interested in being in the West. How would you characterize their two sort of approaches to how the world works?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

I think you nailed Washington's perspective. The west was for the benefit of all Americans. Maybe not for him. He really just wanted to be at home. More than anywhere else since the Revolution, Washington wanted to be at Mount Vernon. But Gallatin was always a creature of the frontier, kind of like myself, to be honest with you. But even when he had to live in D.C. he never lost that kind of frontier ethos. So one of my favorite stories is Gallatin has this mansion on Capitol hill in Washington, D.C. the neighborhood of Capitol Hill. And people would come to visit him. And they all said the same thing, that he wasn't a great host because he never really served alcohol. His home was very plain. They didn't have a lot of furniture. And this is when DC Is really finding its kind of groove with parties and galas and status. And Gallatin never bought into that. But the one thing he would do is he would always host young congressmen from all over the country because he had been in that position for decades. And he would kind of counsel them on some of the problems legislatively they were having. He wasn't a member of the House, but he was like a mentor to these young men. And they all slept in dormitories. They were hundreds of miles from home. And what he was doing was, I think, very astutely, he was building a relationship with them on a personal level that was truly helping them. But I think he was accruing some goodwill for later legislation that he would have, too. But that frontier ethos, that eschewing what is fancy and what is considered to be upper class, it never appealed to him because he came from that world. In Switzerland, he came from relatively wealthy family members. That wasn't who he was. He and his wife Hannah, really were true Westerners. I mean, Westerners, if you came to visit a Westerner, you know, you might bring some tobacco, you might Bring some venison jerky. You're not bringing fine wines from Europe and, you know, sabers from Spain. This. It's a whole different world. But it kind of shows how America has always been this melting pot of interest.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

I think one of the key differences and where Gallatin plays a huge role in shaping America is that Washington, coming from the Potomac, had always seen a river centric development, but Gallatin had basically a road centric model. How does Gallatin gradually get the road to replace the river as the central theme and what's going to prove to be the first big American construction?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Yeah, rivers can take you far, but only so far, because we know that, you know, America is a vast place, but rivers don't flow everywhere. And what Gallatin seas are, there are just thousands and thousands of miles of land that are perfectly suitable for farming, but that are very far away from a river. So roads become the secret. Take the river as far as you can, in this case the Potomac, to Cumberland, Maryland, and then let the roads do the rest of the work. So he does have a very road centric view. And again, that comes from, I think, the way he made his life on the frontier. These are people that are living on lands that are not premium lands. You know, the wealthy will settle right on the river and control that commerce. But if you want to make it in the west, you have to carve your own path in a way. So the nice thing about the western frontier, and Gallatin knows this, is that it's totally crisscrossed by Indian trails. And they all have names and they're well understood paths, and westerners use them. I mean, the national road that'll extend 683 miles to Vandalia, Illinois, from Cumberland, Maryland. That is originally step one, part of Major General Edward Braddock's Military Road from 1755. And then from there it linked up with an ancient native trail called the Mingo Trail, which took it to the Ohio River. So really, the big secret of the National Road is it was a major construction project, but they were paving over essentially existing roadways and trails just to shore them up. And Gallatin knew these native trails like the back of his hand. And that's something I think Washington and most Easterners did not.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

You have Washington, who personifies the nation, but it's really on the eastern frontier. And Gallatin, who is Swiss and speaks with a French accent, but becomes, in a sense, the unifier of the nation by the construction of the National Road. Did they think of it from the very beginning as, quote, The National Road,

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

they would have called it in the first phase of it, linking Cumberland, Maryland, the end of the Potomac, to the Ohio at Wheeling, Virginia, they called it the Cumberland Road. And that's going to be a seven year construction project that covers about 130 miles. It was a gargantuan undertaking. When they completed that, you remember, this is before the Panama Canal, this is before the Brooklyn Bridge, and it's the greatest infrastructure feat in American history. And their goal was really Washington's dream of connecting the Ohio to the Potomac. But almost as soon as it was completed, we started to see settlement into what is today Ohio. And those people were screaming for an extension, and Gallatin was there for it. Congress wasn't so anxious to do that simply because you're talking about congressmen from places like Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, they're not benefiting from this. Massachusetts and Connecticut, they don't see how. This is a national project. You know, Virginia was actually very supportive of it because Wheeling, which is today West Virginia, one of my favorite places was Virginia at the time. And Wheeling was kind of Virginia's guarantee of continued dominance. You know, if America does move west, they have their foothold and Wheeling to build off of. So it involved Maryland, Pennsylvania and Virginia, which was very important. But a lot of people started to question, why are we going to keep paying for this as a national project? It doesn't help a tobacco farmer in North Carolina, it doesn't help a rice farmer in South Carolina. And these are the kind of debates we're used to seeing in Congress.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

The national road, how much of it was genuinely federal?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Well, what I would say is the entire construction in the first phase, the Cumberland Road phase, the big phase, was federal. And this comes back to the genius of Albert Gallatin, because President Jefferson, who was president at the time when it was began, was very skeptical of it. He didn't think there was constitutional grounds for it, and he did not want to pay for it. He also knew he had to work with state governments, which he didn't love. And this is Gallatin's genius. You know, at this time, the federal government is selling land in Ohio. And Gallatin says, well, let's let Westerners pay for it, since Westerners will be using it. So he said, we'll take a few cents of every dollar from land sales in Ohio, and we'll use that to finance the road. And in that way, in its initial form, it was revenue neutral. It did it with no new taxes. And Jefferson loved that. But on the other side of it, Jefferson was a strict constructionist. He never wanted to deviate from the Constitution. The Constitution mandates that the federal government maintain postal roads across America, which was always a serious pain in the butt for these guys because that means you had to find some random foot trail and designated a postal road. Gallatin said, let's make that the national road, the postal road. So those two things alone being revenue neutral and having a constitutional mandate kind of let Thomas Jefferson greenlight the project. So for that first phase, it was entirely paid for by the federal government via land sales in Ohio.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

Well, and as you point out, this whole process of moving west is something that Gallatin is intimately involved with. I mean, in the end, I think as a Secretary of treasury, he's the guy who finds the money to pay for the Louisiana Purchase, which then of course massively expands the United States and virtually guarantees that we'll be a great power just by the scale of our resources. Coming up, we'll look at what lessons the story of America's first great infrastructure project can teach us as the nation marks 250 years of independence.

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and dad living in Orange county, when we bring my five and seven year old to visit, we are sometimes in for a two hour drive that could feel like 10.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Oh, as an avid camper I know all about this.

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[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

this is either going to be the trip of a lifetime or a complete disaster.

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[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

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[Host Newt Gingrich]

From your perspective, to what extent should we learn from from the National Road experience and to what extent should that legitimize an infrastructure oriented America as a key component of our identity?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

I think the National Road teaches us that really ambition pays off. Incredible things can be done. It concerns me today that especially amongst young people, I get a sense that they feel like America's best days are behind them. And that's something that breaks my heart because I know it's not true. I mean, whether it be the National Road or the Panama Canal, whether it be the Oregon Trail or even going to the moon, we were always a country of reachers, dreamers, following pursuits that we probably had no business attempting to do and then succeeding overwhelmingly. And I think that is the spirit we need to come back. Because I think at the core of patriotism is ambition. Ambition not just for yourself to do well, but for your country to do well. And if you read this book you will see Albert Gallatin, George Washington, Henry Clay had a thousand reasons to quit. They had a thousand reasons not to pursue this dream. But they went for it. And it took a long time and it wasn't always pretty, but they achieved something remarkable. And I think at our core as Americans, that's what we do.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

If they had failed, if the National Road had not been developed, how different would American history have been?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Well, I like to say the National Road was too early and too late at the same time. It was too late because by the time it's completed, the canal age has come and gone and the railroad age is upon us. So a lot of people on a national scale looked at the road like, well, it was the first bridge to nowhere, but not for Westerners. I mean, it was there in a very real sense, in the Midwest. It's the reason we have a Midwest, and it was their lifeline. But I also say it was too early, because once railroads come, they completely dictate American life. One of the freedoms Americans didn't appreciate, and I think still don't appreciate, is the freedom to move. And railroads took that freedom away from you. You left when your ticket said you leave, and you went where the train tracks took you. But in 1908, an American named Henry Ford creates the Model T, an American car for American working people. And people start driving those things everywhere. And what they realize is you can drive a Model T car anywhere you want in your town, but you can't drive it to the next town because the only way to get there is a railroad. And people start to demand, Democrats and Republicans alike, north, south, east and west, new roads, good roads. They call it the good Roads movement. And people demand America invest in infrastructure just so they can ride their cars. And even their bikes were a big part of it. And that's when they rediscover the National Road. You know, the National Road was abandoned essentially by 1875. But right around 1908, they start to realize, hey, there's already a great highway that runs through the mountains. And guys like Thomas Edison and Henry Ford, they kind of show America this is the way forward. Roads are the new freedom, the freedom to move. That's when the National Road is designated State Route 40. They start building similar roads all over America. The Lincoln highway, one of my favorites. And then out of that, you get this vast interstate highway network signed by Dwight Eisenhower. George Washington would have been thrilled to see what President Eisenhower did. But it gives us that other expression of freedom, that freedom to move. So what would America have been like without a national Road? I think it would have had, especially in the Midwest, a very difficult time growing, dealing with the crises that the Midwest faces. But the National Road, in a bigger sense Gives us the blueprint for the vast interstate highway system we have now, which really has unleashed America's industrial power.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

If Washington and Gallatin were alive today, what do you think they would challenge us to do in the tradition that they had established?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Well, they would certainly recognize Congress. The fights in Congress haven't changed much in spirit, probably a lot in subject. Gallatin was always very contentious in Congress because he had that accent. I think President Washington will recognize that, too. I think the challenge they would lay before us is to ask, how can you make America successful? How can you make America great in a vastly different world? They would have never recognized America as the preeminent superpower on earth. That would have been great for them to hear, but they never saw that. So the question for them would be, how can we take what we do here? Freedom, industry, capitalism, the rising tide that lifts all ships, and how can we export that to the world? Because, as you know, Mr. Speaker, that is not popular in the world right now. Freedom is very much, I think, under threat around the planet. And there are nefarious other actors out there who very much see our system as a threat. I think Gallatin and Washington would say, you know, how can we make the case to the world that this is the best way? I think that's how they would perceive it.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

We are going to have our 250th anniversary. How will you be spending the 4th of July?

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

The 4th of July? I will be in Boston this whole summer, Mr. Speaker. You know, I'm an editor at the Journal of the American Revolution. I'm gone like four or five days a week, and it's fabulous. It's hard to be away from home, from the kids. But, you know, we've been historians like you and I working on this for years, and we're going to keep working on it. But we have a lot of eyes on us now for the 250th, so we have to kind of make hay while the sun shines, because those eyes won't be there forever. But I'll be in Boston, Massachusetts for the 4th of July.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

I want to thank you, Brady. Your new book, the National George Washington in America's First highway west, is available on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. And I agree with you. I think historians, this is their moment. It's a chance to remind people that this is all real and that really thinking about an America that's lasted 250 years, as Jefferson described it, as an empire of liberty, that's a pretty big moment in the history of the human race. So, Brady, thank you for joining me.

[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

[Host Newt Gingrich]

Thank you to my guest Brady Kreitzer. New Twirl is produced by Gingrich360 and iHeartMedia. Our executive producers Garnesy Sloan. Our researchers Rachel Peterson. Special thanks to the team at Gingrich 360. If you've been enjoying Newts World, I hope you'll go to Apple podcast and both rate us with five stars and give us a review so others can learn what it's all about. Join me on [e-mail] I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newt's World.

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[America 250 Announcer]

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[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

When did we become the Lingokids house?

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[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

Why Lingokids?

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[Parent / Historian Brady Kreitzer]

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