Finding Your Outside Voice

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Finding Your Outside Voice"

Podcast: Next Comes What
Host: Andrea Pitzer
Date: January 15, 2026
Main Guests/Contributors: David Brooks, Jake Tapper, Laura Jadid, Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush, Harvard Study Director

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Andrea Pitzer confronts the alarming rise in authoritarian tactics and violence under Trump’s administration—connecting these trends to global patterns of "strongmen" leadership. Pitzer explores how information overload, online discourse, and police-state tactics are used to overwhelm, intimidate, and produce anxiety in citizens and activists, urging listeners to step away from virtual outrage and rediscover their "outside voices": building real-world relationships, taking concrete action, and protecting community well-being. Through on-the-ground protest coverage, examples from history, and current statistics, the episode challenges listeners to move past online performativity and engage meaningfully for lasting political change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Escalating Authoritarianism and Violence

• Recent Incidents Recap (00:00–02:26):
  • US “kidnapping” of Venezuela’s de facto president.
  • Federal Reserve chairman threatened with prosecution by Trump for resisting political control.
  • Minneapolis mother Renee Goode killed by ICE, with government painting her as a terrorist.
  • Pitzer: “Since the killing, ICE has doubled down on its police state punishment of the city for daring to be unhappy about murder in their midst.” (01:02)
  • City and state lawsuit against Trump administration over ICE presence in Minneapolis.
  • Heightened intimidation tactics and retaliations by federal agents.

2. Mental Overwhelm and Police-State Psychology

• Information as Control (02:21–03:32):

  • Police state tactics aim to "overwhelm opponents mentally before they ever even take action."
  • Social media’s rapid cycle of outrage amplifies anxiety and feelings of helplessness.

• Quote:

  “You don't have to spend your life feeling helpless or marinating in fear and fury.”
  — Andrea Pitzer (03:32)

3. Managing Anxiety, Building Real Connections

• Harvard Study on Well-being (04:11–05:24):

  • Interpersonal relationships—not online engagement—are crucial for happiness and health.
    • Harvard Study Director: “The single choice...most likely to keep us on a good path of well being is to invest in our relationships with other people.” (05:12)

• Andrea Pitzer’s Guidance (05:09-05:24):

  • Avoid self-defeating cycles of doomscrolling.
  • Acknowledge historical warnings (Hannah Arendt) about overexposure to political horror.

4. From Online Performativity to Real-World Action

• Social Media as a Trap (06:48–07:29; 08:50–10:13):
  • Overemphasis on knowing, commenting, and one-upping on social media, versus acting.
  • Laura Jadid’s ICE job exposé (08:38–10:13):
    • ICE’s careless hiring practices—a microcosm of broader chaos and lack of oversight.
    • Jadid: “They can't even keep track of who's behind the masks.” (10:10)
    • Real threat posed by “unknown armed thugs in masks terrorizing citizens.” (10:31)
  • Many activists and change-makers spend less time online, more time on direct action.

5. Hannah Arendt’s Lessons: Seeing, Naming, and Acting

• Discipline and Perception (11:00–11:50):
  • Arendt’s advice: Don’t rationalize or escape—see the facts, accept their horror, and act.
    • David Brooks: “You have to see it for what it is, and you have to accept it, as horrible as it may be...you should become politically active to save the Republic.” (11:26–11:44)

6. Pointless Criticism vs Useful Action

• Counterproductive Critique (12:00–14:00):
  • Online criticism (“armchair commentary”) often wears down activists instead of empowering them.
  • Social media outrage is not a substitute for real-world action.
    • Pitzer: “Before you make any effort to criticize people out there doing good works...am I about to take issue with someone doing good work in a way that is going to wear down motivated people in the world?... Pointless armchair commentary can be dispiriting day after day for people who showed up to actually do something.” (13:00–13:44)

7. Faith Community Mobilization and On-the-Ground Protest

• Protests Nationwide (14:00–17:30):
  • Over 1,000 events against ICE’s “lawless operation.”
    • Rev. Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush: "These abuses are being fueled by a blasphemous co-opting of my faith by adherents of a white Christian nationalist agenda." (14:28)
  • Reports from D.C., Arlington, and across the US: anti-ICE rallies, education on rights, and community actions to protect vulnerable people.
    • Terry, activist: “We need a return to the rule of law. I miss it.” (15:58)
    • Jessica, protester: ICE feels “entitled to attack and harm more and more people…” (16:54)
    • Laura Jadid: “If someone's to shoot me, then so be it. I'm going to stand up and I'm going to protest at every opportunity.” (17:24–17:30)

8. Patriotism, Justice, and Media Narratives

• Challenge to Hollow Patriotism (17:40–18:04):

  • Jake Tapper & David Brooks: Patriotism is not about aesthetics, “Patriotism is about loving the people who live in the damn country, every single one of them.” (17:56)
  • Contrasts between performative patriotism and actual justice.

• Media’s Role and Interpretation Wars (18:28–20:36):

  • David Brooks compares interpretations of violence to fans arguing over a football game: “what you believe now determines what you see.” (19:36)
  • Andrea Pitzer criticizes centrist both-sides-ism, calling for media honesty and clarity when lives are at stake.
  • Jake Tapper: Challenges instant narratives and government justifications, connecting them to past incidents and the undermining of law enforcement and accountability.

    “How can you assert that? There's no ambiguity in this before any investigation has taken place. ... Is that Agent Ross's voice calling Renee Goode a fucking bitch?” (21:13–21:45)

9. Shifts in Public Opinion and the Path Forward

• ICE Approval Collapse (23:07–23:34):

  • Jake Tapper: ICE’s net approval rating among independents dropped 17 points since Trump’s first term.
  • Public increasingly sees ICE enforcement as making cities less safe (51%).

• The Real Work is Offline (23:57-end):

  • Pitzer urges listeners to use their relative freedom for meaningful acts—demonstrations, volunteering, supporting the vulnerable, and building local relationships.
  • Social media presence is not enough; visible real-world action is vital to create change.

• Note on Community and Hope (24:30):

  • Jack Jenkins (Religion News Service) filmed a Minneapolis vigil where community members practiced protest songs—offering a glimpse of resilience and unity.
  • Pitzer: “When it comes to our political crisis, I wish our social media could be more like that, focusing on the big similarities instead of the small differences. People connecting to learn, to take action together, to get strong enough in their knowledge and in the extent of their shared morality and vision that they can find their own voices, improvise and carry those beliefs out into the world.” (24:30–24:52)

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Since the killing, ICE has doubled down on its police state punishment of the city for daring to be unhappy about murder in their midst.”
  — Andrea Pitzer (01:02)

• “Police state's goal is to overwhelm opponents mentally before they ever even take action.”
  — Andrea Pitzer (02:50)

• “The single choice...most likely to keep us on a good path of well-being is to invest in our relationships with other people.”
  — Harvard Study Director (05:12)

• “You can't actually win the Internet.”
  — Andrea Pitzer (06:32)

• “Is it on purpose, or are they really that sloppy with paperwork?”
  — Laura Jadid (10:21)

• "You should become politically active to save the Republic."
  — David Brooks (11:41)

• "These abuses are being fueled by a blasphemous co-opting of my faith by adherents of a white Christian nationalist agenda."
  — Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush (14:28)

• "Patriotism is about loving the people who live in the damn country, every single one of them.”
  — David Brooks (17:56)

• "If someone's to shoot me, then so be it. I'm going to stand up and I'm going to protest at every opportunity."
  — Laura Jadid (17:24–17:30)

• "How can you assert that? There's no ambiguity in this before any investigation has taken place."
  — Jake Tapper (21:13)

• "But if the only sign of what matters to you in your real life is what you post on social media, you are missing your chance to build a new world. Out there is where all the actual change happens."
  — Andrea Pitzer (23:57)

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Important Segments with Timestamps

• [00:00–02:26]: Summary of recent authoritarian incidents and violence
• [03:24–05:24]: The toll of mental overwhelm, Harvard Study on relationships
• [08:38–10:13]: Laura Jadid’s ICE hiring exposé
• [11:00–11:44]: Hannah Arendt’s “Home to Roost” & political responsibility
• [13:00–14:00]: The toxicity of endless online critique
• [14:00–17:30]: Reporting from nationwide protests, faith community involvement
• [17:56–18:04]: Real patriotism defined
• [21:13–21:45]: Media accountability, Jake Tapper refutes government spin
• [23:07–23:57]: Polls showing ICE falling out of public favor, call to action

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Takeaways

• Authoritarian government tactics—intimidation, violence, media distortion—are designed to exhaust and disempower.
• Healthy societies and resilient activists must prioritize real-world relationships, local organizing, and mutual support.
• Social media critique can easily become performative; real action requires moving offline.
• Solidarity, direct action, and reframing "patriotism" as inclusive and compassionate are tools against rising authoritarianism.
• The work of social change belongs to everyone—especially those with the freedom and ability to show up, speak out, and act.

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For listeners:
Engage beyond the feed. Find your outside voice—walk out the door, connect with others, and make your beliefs visible and real in your world.

Transcript

[Andrea Pitzer]

The first weekend in January brought us the US Kidnapping of the de facto Venezuelan president. And now it seems that threat is to Cuba. We're talking to Cuba. And you'll find out pretty soon. The second weekend delivered an official announcement from the chairman of the Federal Reserve. Good evening. That he's been targeted by Trump for prosecution because the president wants to control monetary policy by political pressure or intimidation. And in between, a Minneapolis mom was shot in the head, even if he.

[David Brooks]

Believed himself to be in danger first. In that moment there, his arms extended.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Into the window of the mother of.

[David Brooks]

Three, who's 37 years old. That is clearly no longer the case.

[Andrea Pitzer]

In broad daylight, now that he is.

[David Brooks]

Next to her vehicle when he is firing two more shots through the open window directly into Renee Goode's face.

[Andrea Pitzer]

And our government tried to portray her as a terrorist.

[Jake Tapper]

She was trying to ram this guy with his. With her car. He shot back. He defended himself.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Since the killing, ICE has doubled down on its police state. Punishment of the city for daring to be unhappy about murder in their midst. Meanwhile, here in Minneapolis, the city and state now suing the Trump administration over this influx of immigration officers, saying it's quote, unquote, spreading terror and chaos. And on Sunday, more federal agents in Minneapolis came face to face with a driver they accused of obstructing their work.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

For what? Stop following us.

[Andrea Pitzer]

They told the driver to stop.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

You are impeding operations.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Expressing dismay that anyone would follow the orders of a draft dodging president. The driver said he was on his way home and that he served the Lord.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

This is the United States federal government over here.

[Jake Tapper]

I got to get.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

This is your warning. I guarantee you're not going to like.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The outcome, it being Sunday.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

Go home to your children. Children, it's Sunday.

[Andrea Pitzer]

He suggested that the agents go to church.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

Yeah, go, exactly. Let people go to church.

[Andrea Pitzer]

One agent responded with a thinly veiled threat, asking the driver, I learned from what just happened.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

Go home.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Combine the recent brutality with elections coming near the end of this year, the continued attacks on the rule of law, and the alliance over Twitter's transformation into a pornographic player piano of abusive sexual images.

[David Brooks]

Another example of free society is Donald Trump goes to the Ford plant today.

[Andrea Pitzer]

And it can all feel kind of overwhelming.

[David Brooks]

A worker screams at him and calls him a pedophile protector, and he flips the worker off before walking away. I think. I think we have this footage. Play that for me.

[Andrea Pitzer]

So today I want to talk about managing the vast mess that is confronting us again.

[David Brooks]

Their whole thing is project strength and.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Why it's so hard to process in the mind.

[David Brooks]

Project popularity only care about the base.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I'll address the ways the police state's goal is to overwhelm opponents mentally before they ever even take action.

[David Brooks]

But that's not the reality out in the world.

[Andrea Pitzer]

And I'll offer a simpler approach for how you can take these crises in.

[Laura Jadid]

If you want to make the Epstein.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Scandal go away, which it seems the Trump administration very much wants to do, the way you don't do that is flipping off someone who calls you a pedophile protector on camera I'll talk about attending some of the protests from last weekend. Faith leaders, community members and labor groups.

[Laura Jadid]

Came together earlier today to announce their.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Plan for a day of action against ICE and other ways to respond to the violence and hate around us. Minnesota will not continue to be a testing ground for the kind of fear and violence that is extreme expected for the rest of this country. You don't have to spend your life feeling helpless or marinating in fear and fury. This is planned for January 23rd and will also serve as a statewide day of mourning following the death of Renee.

[Laura Jadid]

Good after she was shot and killed.

[Andrea Pitzer]

By an ICE agent. First, let me be clear that if you're happy with your social media presence, love sparring with critics, and don't feel overwhelmed by our era, a good chunk of this episode may not really be relevant for you.

[Harvard Study Director]

I am the fourth director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development and it is the longest study of adult life that's ever been done. It started in 1938.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I am not in any way trying to bend everybody to my will or say that people should only be online in one particular way. My way.

[Harvard Study Director]

This study set out to understand what makes people thrive as they grow and develop. And that was unusual because most research that's been done is done on what goes wrong in human development so that we can help people. But this was a study of what goes right.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Secondly, I'll say that I am personally allergic to self help books and podcasts, and today's topic might veer dangerously close to some of the territory for those.

[Harvard Study Director]

Our big question is if you could make one choice today to make it likely that you would stay happy and stay healthy throughout your life, what single choice would you make?

[Andrea Pitzer]

So feel free to ignore anything that seems like a lecture.

[Harvard Study Director]

Our study and many other studies show that the single choice we can make that's most likely to keep us on a good path of well being is to invest in our relationships with other people.

[Andrea Pitzer]

If, however, you are feeling beat down and mad at the whole world. Or at least the people who post in your feed and show up in your mentions. Maybe some part of what follows today will be useful. I'd like to suggest that you cannot see the forest when you are busy running nonstop. Face first into more trees. Now a dire warning from history. With nearly everyone on one platform or another or several, a constant connection to current events can become a plague of knowledge. Never have we depended so much on political forces that cannot be trusted to follow the rules of common sense. The striking words of Hannah Arendt, one of the most influential political thinkers of the 20th century. And with the speed of events unfolding in the second Trump era, combined with the instant ability to post reflections on them, most hardcore news junkies, myself included, not only have an opinion on everything, but they're willing to post those opinions and often try to one up each other. Jeff Bieber is an Emmy Award winning filmmaker and co director of the new documentary Hannah Arendt Facing Tyranny. But you can't actually win the Internet.

[David Brooks]

Vivek Murthy, the surgeon general in 2023, put out a report about loneliness, and he said it was an epidemic of loneliness and it was a health issue.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Nobody outside, perhaps five or six serious disinformation researchers is ever going to get the world's best information expert badge.

[David Brooks]

She observes that after World War I, people in Germany felt disconnected to their to their lives, disconnected from society.

[Andrea Pitzer]

If you aren't already getting paid to stay current and post about the news, and maybe even if you are online, existence shouldn't be a replacement for the rest of your life.

[David Brooks]

What she writes about is that everybody was sucked into the system of totalitarianism. The victims, the bystanders, the perpetrators, everybody was sucked in.

[Andrea Pitzer]

There are definitely some exceptions to what I'm about to say, particularly among disabled folks and those who are profoundly isolated for various reasons. But overall, the people who are changing the situation on the ground in the world right now aren't spending the majority of their time on social media. And I'm here today to tell you that, though obviously I think history is really important and those of us who are Americans in particular ought to learn a lot more of it. In general, you don't have to become an expert on Venezuela or the history of the Federal Reserve before you can act against the administration. We begin with an independent journalist who applied for an ICE job and was offered it without even a background check. Laura Jadid wrote about her experience in a piece published Tuesday by Slate magazine, headlined you've heard about who ICE is recruiting. The truth is far worse. I'm the proof. You don't have to have perfect knowledge and authority to respond to each of Trump's bad faith arguments to act against his larger agenda.

[Laura Jadid]

They were promising on the spot hiring to where you could in fact walk out with your $50,000 bonus that day, possibly. I went in, I handed in my resume, which was. I did a skills based resume. I'm a veteran. I served two chairs in Afghanistan.

[Andrea Pitzer]

On the Internet, we all run the risk of being merely the receptacle of the garbage that's being produced.

[Laura Jadid]

Had a very brief interview, took all of six minutes. They didn't ask very many questions. And then I left, assuming I would never hear back, because I'm a very Google able person. I have an unusual name, I'm the only Laura Judit on the Internet, and I make no secret of how I feel about ICE and Trump and all of it.

[Andrea Pitzer]

How much are you interacting with others who are online in ways that no longer feel instructive or fun?

[Laura Jadid]

I never accepted the tentative offer. I never filled out my background check paperwork. I never signed the affidavit saying I'd committed no domestic violence crimes. None of it. A few weeks later, I got a message from LabCorp saying that ICE wanted me to do a drug test. And I went ahead and did that. I was pretty sure I wouldn't pass. I'd partaken in legal cannabis six days before the test, but why not waste some of their money, right?

[Andrea Pitzer]

Do you find yourself echoing accounts that only lecture you on how hopeless and bad our current situation is?

[Laura Jadid]

They had offered me a final position as a deportation officer. My background check was listed as completed three days in the future for when I was looking at it, so it seems like the answer to the question, who are they hiring? Is they don't know.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Do you feel reassured by other posters who reflect your anxiety through panicked graphics and desperate language?

[Laura Jadid]

They can't even keep track of who's behind the masks.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Or conversely, do you swallow online fare that reassures you day after day that Trump is on the verge of getting just what he deserves?

[Laura Jadid]

Is it on purpose, or are they really that sloppy with paperwork?

[Andrea Pitzer]

Or do you interact with anyone online who is actually doing anything to make real change in the world?

[Laura Jadid]

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. This constitutes a national emergency. We have unknown armed thugs in masks who are terrorizing citizens.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Too often. I think a lot of us might be accidentally training ourselves into powerlessness to just observing what's happening. As I've mentioned before, as if it's on television.

[David Brooks]

Hannah Arendt gives her very last speech during America's bicentennial in April 1975, and it's called Home to Roost. And she basically says that when the facts come home to roost, when you actually can see what's happening in front of you, don't escape into some theories or rationalization of what's happening.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Countless influencers are throwing unprocessed emotion out, hoping their takes will spark a garbage fire in which he might be mistaken for influence.

[David Brooks]

You have to see it for what it is, and you have to accept it, as horrible as it may be.

[Andrea Pitzer]

But they can only do it with your help.

[David Brooks]

And then you have to act. You should become politically active to save the Republic. And that's what she's talking about, 1975.

[Andrea Pitzer]

They can only do it if you collect their garbage. Just as harmful as what we do to ourselves is what we do online to one another. I'm not talking about debate or discussion with posters, you know, in real life, or those who share an environment or a background with you, or people who work in the same field. I'm talking about your interactions with strangers. I don't have a celebrity level of following on Blue sky, but I do have a little community of followers, and I'm sometimes surprised what people put in my mentions. And I realize that sometimes they do it because they just want to be heard, and more people might see it there than on their own account. But one time I was at a protest just documenting signs people were carrying and posting interviews with attendees. And someone who agreed entirely with the message of one of the signs reposted it with criticism, arguing that the demonstrators should have used stronger language that the critic preferred. And it's all too easy to police the language on the sign someone else took the time to make and carry out on the street to encounter whatever might follow there. But before you make any effort to criticize people out there doing good works, it might be worth asking yourself, am I about to criticize someone who likely agrees with me about the big issues that we're all facing? Am I about to take issue with someone doing good work in a way that is going to wear down motivated people in the world? Nobody is above criticism. Certainly I'm not. Yet imagine yourself being the person on the receiving end of dozens of tiny corrections over whether you should have used the word murder or kill on a sign you made yourself and carried out in public. Pointless armchair commentary can be dispiriting day after day for people who showed up to actually do something just as big an issue is that people often seem to feel that their online criticism is the equivalent of taking action. But there are so many people for whom this was not the case over the weekend.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

My name is Reverend Paul Brandeis, Rauschenbush. I'm a Baptist minister. I'm the president of Interfaith alliance as.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Americans went out into the streets and.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

I am one of the thousands of of faith leaders across the country from every background and tradition who are showing up and speaking out against ISIS, lawless operation and President Trump's abuse of power.

[Andrea Pitzer]

With more than 1,000 events around the.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

Country, we are experiencing a pastoral emergencies as unidentified masked agents terrorize our homes, our shops, our schools and our houses of worship. These abuses are being fueled by a blasphemous co opting of my faith by adherents of a white Christian nationalist agenda.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Here in the D.C. metro area. There were so many small events in the suburbs, from an anti ICE gathering on the overpass above the interstate in Falls Church to ongoing anti Musk Tesla protest. There is goodness and there is evil in this world. There's good and evil in this country. This ends when we stand up for good. And a weekly Saturday gathering at the NIH in Bethesda. On Sunday, I stopped at the Arlington, Virginia ICE out rally on my way into dc. Hundreds had gathered at the courthouse there to hear speakers and to shout about ice, as well as to learn about how to get skills on dealing with immigration enforcement and protecting those targeted by our out of control police officer.

[David Brooks]

If they try to enter your private.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Property or private space of a school or anything like that, the school has.

[David Brooks]

The perfect constitutional right to say you.

[Harvard Study Director]

May not enter unless you have a.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Search warrant signed by a real judge. After that I hopped on the Metro and ran into others on the train heading downtown to the protest. Walking down toward Constitution Avenue, I met a woman named Terry. We just have to stop the killing and stop the cruelty and stop the violent thugs who are who are killing people. Who explained that she had been an activist for years, going back to the days of ACT up. We need a return to the rule of law. I miss it. The gathering itself took place in front of the E. Barrett Prettyman Courthouse, home to DC's US District Court. Various speakers addressed the crowd, from academics to DSA activists. After the speeches, over a thousand people marched down to ice headquarters on 12th street in Southwest D.C. waiting for the march to begin. I met Jessica, who explained that ICE clearly feels entitled to attack and harm more and more people when they have people in our neighborhoods who are peaceful.

[Laura Jadid]

And they're raiding our neighborhoods and they're.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Raiding schools and they're shooting people who are, I mean, out with whistles.

[Laura Jadid]

I mean, they want us to be afraid. I think that's their goal.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The marches were more somber than the no Kings events I've been to in recent months.

[David Brooks]

One of the largest anti ice rallies.

[Jake Tapper]

We have seen in D.C. as communities.

[David Brooks]

Continue to voice anger and demand answers.

[Andrea Pitzer]

But from Boston and New York to LA and San Diego this weekend, people turned out.

[Laura Jadid]

If someone's to shoot me, then so be it.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I'm going to stand up and I'm.

[Laura Jadid]

Going to protest at every opportunity.

[Andrea Pitzer]

In Petoskey, Michigan, Laramie, Wyoming, and all over the country, Americans spoke in defiance.

[Jake Tapper]

For so long, the right wing has held up patriotism as a vibe, as an aesthetic.

[David Brooks]

But patriotism is more than bald eagle, flag and beer.

[Jake Tapper]

Patriotism is about loving the people who.

[David Brooks]

Live in the damn country, every single.

[Andrea Pitzer]

One of them, against the violence that we're seeing from our rogue government.

[Jake Tapper]

I'm a new grandpa, and I think of my little 4 year old and the world he will inhabit.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

I want to be sure that while.

[Jake Tapper]

I have time, I can help to make that world a little better for him.

[Andrea Pitzer]

What those who showed up this weekend were doing was the opposite in many ways of what we see from much of the pundit class.

[David Brooks]

There was a brutal football game between Princeton and Dartmouth.

[Andrea Pitzer]

On PBS NewsHour, David Brooks addressed the death of Renee Goode in Minneapolis.

[David Brooks]

And after the game, researchers sent the Princeton kids and the Dartmouth kids film the exact same film video of the game. And the Princeton kids said, look, this film proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Dartmouth kids did twice as many penalties.

[Andrea Pitzer]

He compared the Trump administration interpretations of videos of her death and those who have labeled her killing murder to fans of opposing football teams at Princeton and Dartmouth.

[David Brooks]

It's a very famous social science experiment, and I watched it play out in real time this week.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Brooks wants to imply there's no difference between Trump supporters and his most fervent opponents, that politically active Americans are nothing more than members of a team, and that he is the voice of reason between them.

[David Brooks]

To David's point about the public debate, it does feel like we live in this moment where this idea of seeing is believing has been replaced by what you believe now determines what you see.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I mean, sure, but what is he persuading anyone of? Nothing. Which means he supports nothing more than the status quo, whatever it is in any administration.

[David Brooks]

Maybe. I come at this from the vantage Point of being an African American man who, you know, for decades, you know, people talked about racial profiling by police officers, and there was no video to prove it. And so we were deemed reactionary. We were deemed taking things too seriously.

[Andrea Pitzer]

And that status quo is one that leaves centrists like him as the referees in an Ivy League game that will.

[David Brooks]

Never end until the person videoed Rodney King getting beaten up in Los Angeles. And even with that, you know, people came at it with their various perspectives. Five years ago in Minneapolis, we saw Derek Chauvin with his knee on the neck of George Floyd for nine and a half minutes.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Yet there were bright spots on TV this weekend that suggest ICE protesters and observers are breaking through. The egregiousness of the video of the murder got Jake Tapper, who has in the past been a champion of both sides, ing and issue to death.

[Jake Tapper]

My position is, I wasn't there. I didn't see it. Some people say that it clearly showed that she was trying to hit him. And did some people say, no, she was clearly trying to move her car and flee and get away? I don't know.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It got him to directly confront the narrative being put forth by Kristi Noem and the Department of Homeland Security.

[Jake Tapper]

What I'm saying is, how do you know? The shooting, we should note, was Wednesday at 10:37am Eastern. Just over two hours later, the Department of Homeland Security put out a statement definitively asserting what had happened, defending the ICE agent, accusing Renee Good of domestic terrorism. How can you assert that? There's no ambiguity in this before any investigation has taken place. Fucking bitch. Is that Agent Ross's voice calling Renee Goode a fucking bitch?

[Andrea Pitzer]

I. I can't determine which one it is, but it could be. And what's more, Tapper tied Nomes lies directly to the violence against law enforcement. On January 6, 2021, during Trump's attempted coup.

[Jake Tapper]

I just showed you video of people attacking law enforcement officers. Undisputed proof, undisputed evidence. And I just said President Trump pardoned all of them. And you said that President Trump is enforcing all the laws equally. It's just not true.

[Andrea Pitzer]

For now, Trump's most fervent supporters aren't going to change their mind. That's more likely to happen from skyrocketing healthcare premiums or any economic crash that would likely follow if the President does somehow get control of the Fed and start setting banking policy directly. But when ICE kills civilians in the street or even in detention, we can raise the alarm and demand punishment and demand accountability.

[Reverend Paul Brandeis Rauschenbush]

Let me be clear. From my faith and the core of my being. ISIS ruthless and unhinged campaign is an affront to the divine commandments to love our neighbor and to welcome the stranger.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Motivating independents and less committed voters is an important part of how short term change can happen.

[Jake Tapper]

Just take a look here. ICE's net approval rating in Trump's first term ICE, you know, kind of lukewarm. You had him right there at a net approval rating of 0 points. Look at where we are today. We're talking about a negative 17 point approval rating. That is a 17 point drop from where we were during Trump's first term among independents.

[Andrea Pitzer]

And building a narrative in public about the history unfolding today is critical to the long term change that our country needs.

[Jake Tapper]

Why is it that ICE is so unpopular at this point? Well, take a look at our new CNN SSRS poll and I think this sort of gives the game away. Ice enforcement is making US cities less safe. Look at this. 51%, 51% of Americans say that ice enforcement in cities is making those cities less safe.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I've asked listeners before to think about where they stand and how anyone else would know what they believe. In some cases, people aren't safe to speak out or act because of their jobs or their personal safety in more extreme communities. But most people do have some real freedom to express their political views, if not by going to demonstrations, then by volunteering in places that will help shore up the lives and the rights of the most vulnerable people. Nonprofits and churches across the country are doing it in ways that can keep the risk minimal for those who need to be careful. But if the only sign of what matters to you in your real life is what you post on social media, you are missing your chance to build a new world. Out there is where all the actual change happens. This weekend I was heartened to see the national reporter for Religion News Service, Jack Jenkins, share video from a church in Minneapolis of what appeared to be a musical director teaching a crowd a song during a vigil. They were practicing a chant that they would soon sing out in the streets. This is for our neighbors who are locked inside. Together we will abolish ice is what they were singing. And after a few repetitions to get the melody, they started switching in the word children. This is for our children. And when it comes to our political crisis, I wish our social media could be more like that, focusing on the big similarities instead of the small differences. People connecting to learn, to take action together, to get strong enough in their knowledge and in the extent of their shared morality and vision that they can find their own voices, improvise and carry those beliefs out into the world. And that's it with deportation. Thanks for listening to Next Comes what? Please share this with one person who's looking for ways to survive this mess. To support this podcast, please become a paid [e-mail] and consider giving Next Comes what? A five star review where you get your podcasts.