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Next Comes What
How to Spook a Fascist
00:26:44
Our society is descending deeper and deeper into authoritarianism, but hitting the streets this weekend is a good way to push back. Subscribe to Andrea Pitzer’s Degenerate Art newsletter to support Next Comes What and get Andrea's posts first: Read...
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- [00:00]
Andrea Pitzer
Don't forget, if you're a paid subscriber who wants to ask a question about anything at all, we're doing a special episode for that. You can send your question to nextcomeswhwhatmail.com and I will do my best to answer it. We're going to gather these questions across the next couple weeks and we'll do a bonus post and bonus episode of Next Comes what later in the month to address that. And it will eventually be available to everyone as well. I've talked before about protest and why it matters, about why it's useful and what it does. But those comments have usually been scattered throughout random parts of episodes about something else. Saturday, October 18th is approaching. Joining us now is Leah Greenberg. She's the co founder of Indivisible, which is one of the main organizers of the no Kings rally. And it's worth keeping in mind that huge protests from the summer may now get closer to reaching key numbers that could meet or surpass the greatest single day tolls of recorded demonstrations in the United States. The single largest demonstration in the first Trump administration was around 750event across the country for the Families Belong Together rallies opposing family separation. They may well soon reach a critical mass historically shown to be able to press for tremendous change in governance. We're now expecting about 2,500 events around the country on no King. So we're talking about literally four times as many and places all over, really red, really rural, all over the map at this key moment. I want to talk about the value of being out and part of a group expressing dissent or non cooperation with objectives. The silent sentinels quietly protested in front of the White House, asking President Wilson to support women's suffrage beginning in January 1917. The protesters remained for two and a half years, which means today I'll talk a little bit about what nonviolent protest has done in the world and in the US what it's doing right now in the country and what it has the potential to do. The silent sentinels stayed at their posts until the 19th Amendment was passed giving women the right to vote. I'll talk a little about the limits and failures as well and why it's crucial for you to get involved right now if you can. People are saying I don't agree on everything right now, but what I agree on is that this isn't what our country is supposed to be. This isn't what I want for my neighbors, this isn't what I want for my kids. And so I'm coming out and showing up. Right now, we are in a society that is descending into authoritarianism, that is already largely mired in authoritarianism to try.
- [02:31]
Guest Commentator
To stop the fascists.
- [02:32]
Andrea Pitzer
And that authoritarianism is hardening.
- [02:34]
Guest Commentator
This is is deliberate.
- [02:36]
Andrea Pitzer
The gatekeeping institutions responsible for stability in the country, things like universities, fake news outlets, hoax health care.
- [02:45]
Guest Commentator
It's a horrible atrocity.
- [02:47]
Andrea Pitzer
Government agencies, Are you kidding? Have all been directly attacked by the Trump administration.
- [02:53]
Guest Commentator
I want to thank Stephen Miller, who's right back in the audience right there. I'd love to have him. I love watching him on television. I'd love to have him come up and explain his true feelings, but maybe not his truest feelings.
- [03:06]
Andrea Pitzer
These attacks make it more difficult to get information and services that help people know what's going on or how to get help in a crisis that might.
- [03:15]
Guest Commentator
Be going a little bit too far.
- [03:17]
Andrea Pitzer
The government is actively removing much of that help itself and creating obstacles to individual and institutional pushback against the government. Mark Bray is a Rutgers University history professor, author of the 2017 book Antif the Anti Fascist Handbook. Last week, he was forced to leave his home in New Jersey and move to Spain with his family after receiving death threats following Trump's push to categorize the anti fascist movement as a domestic terrorist organization. For the purposes of today's episode, I'll lump several things into one. Grassroots level pushback.
- [03:56]
Guest Commentator
It's not an organization. It's more of a politics or a movement. I liken it to feminism. Sometimes there are feminist groups, but feminism itself is not a group. They are antifa groups, but antifa itself is not a group. It's just sort of like a. More of a verb. It's a thing you do.
- [04:11]
Andrea Pitzer
I'll separate them out briefly later to make a couple points.
- [04:14]
Guest Commentator
It's a term that is short for antifascist or anti fascism. It's originally German. From the era of opposition to Hitler. After World War II, anti fascism continued throughout the world.
- [04:26]
Andrea Pitzer
But for the most part, I'm going to consider demonstrations, rallies and protests all one thing, because I want to emphasize a key mechanism that they're all tapping into in this moment. They are public resistance to the current administration and an attempt to assert the primacy of the people's right to control how they'll be governed.
- [04:50]
Guest Commentator
It's really an obvious page out of the textbooks about fascist and authoritarian leaders. It's such an obvious imitation of the kind of the Red Scare talk about communism, but applied to today.
- [05:03]
Andrea Pitzer
The Trump administration is hoping to speed run an authoritarian clampdown that makes dissent invisible. Or impossible.
- [05:10]
Guest Commentator
What we're seeing today in the US Is increasingly fascist maga, I believe, and I study fascism. I don't say this likely is a fascist movement. And if we don't organize, if we don't take action in the streets, we're going to end up somewhere really bad.
- [05:25]
Andrea Pitzer
They say that people under occupation by National Guard troops or facing street kidnappings are happy and smiling.
- [05:32]
Guest Commentator
So you have black women with MAGA hats on in Chicago, all over the place. They want the guard to come in.
- [05:41]
Andrea Pitzer
They punish universities for asserting any independence. Last week, the Trump administration sent a letter to nine US Universities asking them to pledge support for the Trump administration's political agenda or risk losing access to federal funding. They have long described protesters as paid agents of George Soros, an anti Semitic trope. They're not likely to give up anytime soon.
- [06:04]
Guest Commentator
This has been going on for a long time, this effort to turn George Soros in the face of everything that's threatening to white Christians, not just in the United States, but also in Hungary, where Viktor Orban has focused his political campaigns against George Soros.
- [06:18]
Andrea Pitzer
But ahead of the demonstrations planned for this weekend, they are scared.
- [06:22]
Guest Commentator
The American people are not stupid. They see what's going on.
- [06:25]
Andrea Pitzer
They've upped the rhetoric, claiming everyone involved is coming out to support Hamas. They're saying the protest is for those who hate America. They're portraying any opposition to their policies as unpatriotic and threatening the safety of.
- [06:38]
Guest Commentator
All Americans, people who don't want to stand and defend the foundational truths of this republic.
- [06:45]
Andrea Pitzer
Showing up is a great way to frighten them more.
- [06:47]
Guest Commentator
Donald Trump is turning ICE into his own personal militia. And today's guest, Professor David Noll, well, he saw it coming.
- [06:53]
Andrea Pitzer
The use of masked men, given the power to drag anyone away, is meant to make the current administration seem invincible.
- [07:00]
Guest Commentator
There's a number of scholars who have said that we're in the process of consolidating authoritarianism, and I agree with that assessment. When you look at Trump's aspirations, or if you look at the aspirations of the extreme parts of the mega movement, the goal is a society, a government where your friends are rewarded, your enemies are punished, and everything is bent to the leader's will.
- [07:25]
Andrea Pitzer
Gathering together against police state tactics shows resolve in the face of that threat, and it demonstrates that the ruling party doesn't have full control yet.
- [07:34]
Guest Commentator
But we're not there. I came to work today and I wasn't stopped by masked officers on the street. If you take to social media or if you go to the no kings protest. You can see that we have a thriving and vibrant protest movement in the United States.
- [07:47]
Andrea Pitzer
With the government shutdown continuing, there's some confusion about what's going on and who is responsible for what's happening. President of the progressive public opinion research firm Impact Research, Molly Murphy. Molly, what more did you find on this? The public, for now at least, blames the party in power and Trump himself more than they blame Democrats. Well, so one thing that I'll just start out with is shutdowns aren't popular. Polling is going to find people don't want the government to shut down. But in some cases, it's a close call. Only 28% of Americans say that they are very concerned about being personally impacted by the shutdown. But 60% of Americans are very concerned that 4 million people are going to lose their health insurance if these tax credits expire. When those who oppose Republicans in this moment do so publicly and in great numbers, it helps create momentum for a more decisive rejection of Trumpism. One of the biggest problems we've seen this year in polling and really even in 2024 to an ext that hurt Democrats, is voters said, I don't know what Democrats stand for. Whether you like Donald Trump or not, you know what he stands for. It helps frame a narrative. This is a moment to show up and assert that government should not be used to attack Americans. It should not destroy their public health and emergency systems and make health insurance impossible for millions that currently have it. It should not kidnap people from the streets. It should not assault them. It should not shoot them. It should not disappear anyone. Yet one evolution we've seen with authoritarian governments in larger and more developed countries in the last 50 years has been to target minority groups and dissenters as surgically as possible.
- [09:36]
Guest Commentator
Dino Abodalla is a host of the Dino Abodalla show on Sirius xm. This administration has just sort of decided that naturalized citizens are sort of a class unto themselves who can be targeted for reasons in a different way than non naturalized citizens can.
- [09:50]
Andrea Pitzer
To leave as much of the population as they can able to go about their regular lives.
- [09:55]
Guest Commentator
This is a priority of this administration to denaturalize people. They write in the memo. If you are a potential danger to national security, potential not concrete, not imminent, but to anyone is a potential danger.
- [10:08]
Andrea Pitzer
National security dissent that is isolated and unreflective of the larger population's experience is harder to grow into a powerful movement.
- [10:17]
Guest Commentator
This administration is taking a page from put or they have a law. If you criticize the law, the war in Russia, you Lose your citizenship in Hungary. They just literally passed one in the last month to do the same thing Trump is doing now. They've done this in Cuba and Venezuela. It is a tool of autocrats. The goal is to punish a few people in a big picture spectacle and call self censorship of others.
- [10:37]
Andrea Pitzer
A Pew Research study from this summer found that nearly one in four people in the US Reported fear they or someone close to them would be detained or deported, which is a significant number. Latinos are the most impacted group. Researchers say that nearly half of those.
- [10:54]
Guest Commentator
Surveyed now express some or a lot of concern.
- [10:58]
Andrea Pitzer
But it also means that many people haven't seen these assaults yet themselves.
- [11:03]
Guest Commentator
While more Democrats are worried about deportations, concern among Republicans has increased to 31%, up from 24% in March.
- [11:11]
Andrea Pitzer
Many people in the U.S. especially those fed only propaganda, may still see anti Trump actions as limited to those directly threatened, and they may see those people as legitimately threatened. So the size of demonstrations this weekend and going forward matters.
- [11:27]
Guest Commentator
Every single nonviolent political movement that hits at least that 3 1/2% threshold of the country's population being engaged in the movement has succeeded.
- [11:39]
Andrea Pitzer
While people from threatened communities and people of color have been on the front lines of protests in some cases for centuries, it is critical for others to show up now.
- [11:49]
Guest Commentator
The success could be toppling an authoritarian regime. It could be preventing democratic backsliding. It could be achieving a goal like civil rights. But the number is 3.5%, which here in the United States would require engaging about 12 million Americans in a sustained nonviolent protest movement.
- [12:07]
Andrea Pitzer
Partly it's to make an impression in terms of numbers, but it's also critical in terms of what siloed or checked out Americans see in their communities or across different media.
- [12:17]
Guest Commentator
I bet you see antifa types, I bet you see the Marxist in full display.
- [12:22]
Andrea Pitzer
And as minority groups continue to be targeted with violence and deportation, we've already seen no Kings protests becoming whiter. Those who can more safely oppose Trumpism need to show up because there are many communities that cannot right now. Crowd size also matters for two other reasons. One is that a White House that's already shook by the physical resistance it's facing can be further rattled by even bigger numbers coming out across the country and in the heart of D.C. the other is that by coming together against Trump, demonstrators can find solidarity in like minded people. We live in an atomized era in which people are more and more isolated at home, a tendency the COVID epidemic really exacerbated. That kind of isolation is especially dangerous as democracies degenerate under oppressive rule, forming communities through dissent is a nurturing and sustaining force for individuals and the country alike. As Julia Angwin and Ami Fields Meyer wrote in the New Yorker earlier this year, after speaking to people and dissident movements around the world, many dissidents we spoke to said that amid prolonged and cascading political crises, establishing a political home for yourself is a necessary ingredient for nurturing non cooperation. Think of this as the equivalent of participation in a faith community that meets to worship, a regular practice to guard against loneliness and despair, and check in with others going through a similar experience. Foreign demonstrations of any kind can be a powerful tool. It's important to acknowledge their limits and what they can't do. Research has shown that in different times and even different countries, news media tends to disparage or downplay protest and protesters roles as a political force. While protesters can do certain things I'll talk about those later, they can do certain things to subvert that conventional response. We have to realize that media coverage of public dissent will be an uphill battle, maybe forever.
- [14:37]
Guest Commentator
This crazy no Kings rally this weekend.
- [14:39]
Andrea Pitzer
The other thing to recognize is that big events like Those planned for October 18th by no Kings are effectively rallies. They absolutely can help to shape the narrative to rattle Trump and the oligarchs and to build solidarity, but they themselves aren't likely to change policy or conditions on the ground. At most they might make government more cautious about its actions, but it's the protests at detention facilities and demonstrations in the face of ICE operations that have more direct effect.
- [15:10]
Guest Commentator
We care about what's going on behind those walls.
- [15:13]
Andrea Pitzer
And more than that, change comes from sustained community building that brings people together to work with their city councils and local advocacy groups to use regulations and laws to shut or to actually serve targeted communities instead of persecuting them. That was Pastor Chris Harris speaking out about ICE agents conduct in the city. Prior to that, some strong words from Mayor Brandon Johnson. This news conference about an executive order that Johnson is signing that would prohibit the federal government from using public lots for staging and also affirming the rights of private property owners to deny ICE access unless there is a warrant. So big protests like this weekend's aren't the end point of anything, but they can be the beginning. People who connect there can educate and be educated. They can find out about more concrete actions to take and ways to plug into long term efforts. They can be part of their whole idea is that if they can make enough people afraid, then we start to fall in line. Preemptively we start to obey in advance, right? That is the whole idea that once they've kind of created that climate of fear, they don't even have to do this repression because everyone just starts doing what they want. Think of it as the first level of a dungeon, the easy one in a quest game. The demonstration this weekend will give you the lay of the land and ideas about how to move forward. Peaceful protest is what exposes that lie, is what shows that we can actually collectively defy them, and what fuels the broader conditions for courage across society that's going to be necessary to push back against this administration. I've talked in earlier episodes about studies that have shown it's possible to undo authoritarian seizures of government. My journalistic self wouldn't feel right if I didn't also share with you that even when opposition movements are able to retake control, some studies have shown that authoritarian tactics can be hard to leave behind. Looking at the Gambia and other nations in the Journal of Democracy, authors Donggyun, Danny Choi and Fiona Shenbei noted this month that the country's democratic resilience after decades of brutal authoritarian rule has been attributed to a variety of domestic factors, most notably the inward evolution among voters and civil society leaders that led to bottom up demands for democratization. With cases from other nations in which opposition groups moved into ruling positions only to become more authoritarian themselves, the authors noted that an opposition victory is at best a prelude to democratic recovery, but it is not a synonym. Absent powerful counterweights, new leaders often find themselves constrained by the very political logics that empowered their predecessors, leading to the preservation rather than the reversal of autocratic practices. They suggested that those committed to halting the wave of democratic erosion should cultivate sustained domestic vigilance from a citizenry and a civil society capable of holding today's opposition victors accountable tomorrow. Exercising the muscle of public dissent can be used to hold any government to account and build the strength that protects the country from the flaws that helped give rise to authoritarianism in the first place. Protest is a big part of that, if we're honest about it at this point. The opposition to Trump is also a nation of doom scrollers these days, and it's easy to get overwhelmed. Showing up in public can be a real cure for those feelings of powerlessness.
- [18:57]
Isabella Solomon Massimento
My name is Isabella Solomon Massimento and I'm an associate over at Ballard Spa. Before I joined Ballard, I was a staff attorney for a few years at the ACLU of Minnesota.
- [19:07]
Andrea Pitzer
Still, it's important to assess your own risk in a given situation and how it plays out at different public action.
- [19:13]
Isabella Solomon Massimento
If you are in a public peace, provided that things remain peaceful, you have a protected first Amendment right to lift your voice and use your voice to go out and protest.
- [19:24]
Andrea Pitzer
You might feel safe going to a no Kings event, but at risk protesting outside an ICE detention facility. The reality is that law enforcement can turn any gathering violent at almost any point.
- [19:36]
Isabella Solomon Massimento
If you're going to go out and protest, I definitely recommend sticking with a buddy, having somebody that you're going out there with so that if something happens to you or if you are arrested, someone else is aware that you were there and they can reach out to someone for help on your behalf.
- [19:53]
Andrea Pitzer
It's a brutal administration we're dealing with.
- [19:56]
Isabella Solomon Massimento
I would definitely go and in indelible ink or Sharpie, whatever it may be, write down key numbers in case you get arrested, in case they take your stuff, your phone, whatever it may be. And if you don't have those numbers memorized, you want them on your arm or somewhere else on you so that if you need to make a phone call later on, you have those contacts available to you.
- [20:19]
Andrea Pitzer
Taking advantage of online trainings and meetups to learn more about mitigating risk and keeping yourself and others safe can help you respond in the moment and even to build up tolerance for public action more likely to lead to direct encounters with law enforcement.
- [20:33]
Isabella Solomon Massimento
In today's day and age where we can open cell phones with our fingerprints or our faces, I would definitely recommend disabling those settings when you're going out to a protest so that if you are arrested, law enforcement can't just hold up your phone or apply your thumbprint and be able to unlock and access everything that is in your phone, even though they are not supposed to.
- [20:56]
Andrea Pitzer
October 18th events are likely to be overwhelmingly peaceful ones and they will give you a chance to see how low key events unfold, which will help give you a framework for other events going forward. Not only might you learn to build up confidence and tolerance for more focused actions, you'll have more tools to respond with if you wind up facing an emergency in your daily life.
- [21:19]
Guest Commentator
Saying no Kings is saying yes to a republic. It's saying yes to democracy. It's saying yes to freedom. And when we have all those things, then we can decide amongst ourselves about particular policy questions. But what comes first is up or down on our democracy. Up or down on. On our. On our republic.
- [21:36]
Andrea Pitzer
Though the theme of episode is the value of public dissent, I want to make clear that involves much more than just attending protests. Those whose Disabilities or risk profiles may keep them away from public. Demonstrations can still contribute to efforts around the country. Some people, like Megan Pionkowski, provide ICE primers or other educational materials that you can help make and distribute yourself. Others are out creating memorials to those taken from their communities via signs that recall the German Stopperstein Project commemorating those who were taken by the German state under Nazi rule. People everywhere are creating educational, even musical videos about Shut the up. You're sitting in the police transport van after a protest. Shut the fuck up.
- [22:25]
Guest Commentator
In a holding cell with your comrades.
- [22:27]
Andrea Pitzer
Shut the fuck up. Some groups are collecting racks of inflatable costumes for people to wear at demonstrations. Others are out promoting policies in their communities that will offer greater protection on healthcare or housing. The main thing is to not stay silent. The more voices coming together against the president's agenda and his power grab in any form, the better. This effort will require millions and millions of us in the end. And while we can't control when government agents will turn violent, what could be.
- [23:03]
Guest Commentator
More Portland than a naked bike ride protest?
- [23:05]
Andrea Pitzer
I would like to make the argument that goofiness matters.
- [23:09]
Guest Commentator
The most threatening thing I've seen yet was the naked bicyclers in Portland who were protesting ICE down there.
- [23:14]
Andrea Pitzer
The role of costumes, music and dance and demonstrations is part of a long lineage of both ridicule and joy as powerful tools against oppression.
- [23:23]
Guest Commentator
I mean, it's getting really ugly.
- [23:24]
Andrea Pitzer
Costumes in particular are becoming iconic right now because they highlight the gap between the government's claims that protesters are terrorists and the reality on the ground. And wearing a frog, chicken, or unicorn costume won't always keep officers from arresting you, but it does make that decision a losing choice for the government. It makes them look ridiculous and authoritarian and highlights the difference between the sides in this conflict. You're wearing costumes to show just how ridiculous that is. It's not a war zone. There's been a rightward shift in the press we're seeing due largely to the growing media ownership by billionaires creating viral moments with the kinds of things we're seeing in Portland and elsewhere. Costumes and naked bike rides. It's a way around the new gatekeepers who want to portray any threat to their power as terrorism. Things like costumes and naked bike rides will make it onto social media and perhaps even local news that would otherwise only report the point of view of law enforcement.
- [24:27]
Guest Commentator
We're in the silliest timeline, so I thought, like, why not be silly with it?
- [24:31]
Andrea Pitzer
You know, It's a way to seize public attention. Attention and awareness. Republicans are talking about your protest a lot ahead of time, even, and especially unsolicited when they're not asked about it. It's clearly part of their talking point strategy. But these kinds of actions are also about joy.
- [24:50]
Guest Commentator
I think what they're doing is backfiring. Our numbers are skyrocketing. We have more than 2600 events. We have more RSVP than we had in no Kings in June. This is going to be enormous. It's going to be joyful.
- [25:01]
Andrea Pitzer
And though the different parts of the coalition of people will need to build in order to defeat Trump will sometimes be in conflict with one another, we can come together and take pleasure in the oddball nature of humanity when it is not beaten down or coerced into submission.
- [25:17]
Guest Commentator
It's going to be patriotic. It's going to be powerful.
- [25:20]
Andrea Pitzer
So go to nokings.org and see what's happening this weekend near you. And bring your friends. Instead of people marching in the lockstep, jackbooted style that Trump so longs for in the military parades that he admires in other countries, we can show up in our magnificent, florid variety to reveal that the answer is not to constrict our liberties, but to celebrate our freedom. And the more joy we can bring to that, the more people will want to be part of this movement and the more it will become clear that we can win. And that's it. Thanks for listening to Next Comes what? Please share this with anyone who's looking for ways to help each other survive this mess. To support this podcast, Please subscribe@Andreapitzer.com and consider giving Next Comes what? A five star review where you get your podcasts. Don't forget, if you're a paid subscriber who wants to ask a question about anything at all, we're doing a special episode for that. You can send your question to next nextcomeswhat@gmail com and I will do my best to answer it. We're going to gather these questions across the next couple of weeks and we'll do a bonus post and bonus episode of Next Comes what? Later in the month to address that. And it will eventually be available to everyone as well.