← Next Comes What
Next Comes What
How We Dissent — Lessons from LA & DC
00:27:44
People in the streets of LA and staff at NIH show all Americans how to stand up to power. Read the post that inspired this episode: Subscribe to Andrea Pitzer’s Degenerate Art newsletter to support Next Comes What: In this week's...
Loading summary
Transcript49 lines
- [00:00]
Andrea Pitzer
You're listening to Next comes what from Degenerate Art. This is Andrea pitzer. Subscribe@Andreapitzer.com so that this podcast can remain free for Remain free for everyone. Since last week, demonstrators in Los Angeles have been resisting the targeting of area residents by ICE raids. A community response which law enforcement soon countered by attacking protesters, targeting journalists, making vague threats to arrest the Governor of California California and the Mayor of Los Angeles, and finally deploying California National Guard troops, then Marines to the city via actions destined to be contested in the courts. When we had the wildfires that devastated big chunks of our city, he did absolutely nothing. Now that we're in the middle of a non emergency, send in the National Guard. Meanwhile, at the start of this work week, more than 300 people still employed in one capacity or another at the National Institutes of Health submitted the Bethesda Declaration, speaking out against what they say are these new policies undermining the NIH mission and harming public health. A public letter to NIH Director J. Bhattacharya calling attention to the destruction of U.S. medical research expertise and partnerships. One of my co signers said this, but I'm going to quote them because I thought it was so powerful. You get another job but you cannot get another soul. And laying out the toll the administration's decisions are already having.
- [01:37]
Rui Carlos Sa
If you know someone out there who is suffering from cancer or Alzheimer's and you have a hope for a cure right now, they're stealing your hope away from you. And our job at the NIH is.
- [01:49]
Andrea Pitzer
To provide that hope through the harmful measures that leadership is working to implement. Slashing the budget potentially by 43% which means programs and research. I had a chance to interview one of the signatories of this Bethesda Declaration, a program officer and program director.
- [02:08]
Rui Carlos Sa
I believe that the threats there are in this letter and the ones that I see coming in the immediate future from, from from the budget to the career policy changes are extinction level event for the biomedical research community and behavior community too.
- [02:22]
Andrea Pitzer
I wanted to get his personal thoughts on where the country is at and how he weighed his own participation in this collaborative public statement.
- [02:32]
Rui Carlos Sa
I have a 10 year old, a 7 year old and teaching them that bravery is not being fearless is actually having. I have quite a lot of fear that there will be retribution and I'll lose my job that I used to love and that I chose but also but doing the right thing despite fear.
- [02:50]
Andrea Pitzer
I believe the letter is not only a tremendously revealing tool to use to talk about what's happening to the federal government right now.
- [03:00]
Rui Carlos Sa
So when I'm killing technology grants, am I killing the technology that will allow worldwide vaccination, that will allow the eradication of smallpox or the equivalent today?
- [03:08]
Andrea Pitzer
But also that the personal decisions made by those involved are illuminating and can help all of us weigh when and how to take action.
- [03:17]
Rui Carlos Sa
Am I still doing more good than harm? Because I know that my actions now also carry some harm, which was a thought I've never had before. January 20th.
- [03:26]
Andrea Pitzer
So overall today I'm exploring events in LA and in DC, these two very different cities with very different models for action. Right now, I'll address the kinds of risks that countless people are taking every day for their own communities and for the whole country. We'll close with looking at opportunities for you to act. June 14th. No, Kings Day is coming up this weekend, and it offers a huge array of opportunities for you to stand with those who are already trying to build a country and a world we might all be able to live together in. Let's start in California. Several ICE raids targeted car washes. But Arthuro didn't work there. He was simply there to wash his car as normal people working their jobs.
- [04:20]
Rui Carlos Sa
Trying to provide for their own families.
- [04:22]
Andrea Pitzer
To push to have a better life. Brian admits his father is undocumented. He says when ICE agents showed up at the car wash, his father panicked and tried to leave, but agents stopped him and took him into custody. Witnesses at the car wash were furious. Doing that to that child like that, I know that's sad. I don't want to go out anymore because I'm.
- [04:45]
Rui Carlos Sa
I'm afraid that I'm being followed or I will get detained.
- [04:49]
Andrea Pitzer
Even though I'm a US citizen. It's all happened so quickly and been so muddled. I want to at least give you a simple, if incomplete, timeline. In the first days of June, reports emerged of immigrants showing up for regular court appearances at the Edward Roy Ball Federal Building in Los Angeles, only to be detained. So he's been here 13 years. Just like everything else, it's very hard to, you know, actually go through that process. So everybody else in there, like a lot of people, they. Their family members came to the interviews. So it's like, you know, what are we supposed to do? By the end of the week, outlets reported that hundreds were being held in the basement of the building in inhumane conditions. You know, just a lot of protests started. And it began when these ICE raids began around Southern California. Of course, LA is a sanctuary city. It is an overly prevalent Latino community here in Southern California. But the city of LA, over 50% Hispanic. So a lot of people feel a connection to this story, whether they've been here maybe for generations, or if they're newly arrived. There's a strong sense of connection to this story, of this being an immigrant city. ICE raids appeared to be underway in several locations in greater Los Angeles. Workers at a warehouse in the Fashion District were targeted. David Huerta, the president of Service Employees International Union California, was injured and arrested protesting in one of these actions. Now take a look at some video from earlier today. This was taken by a cell phone in downtown la. You can see federal agents creating a barrier around David Huerta as he is on the ground being detained. Demonstrators headed to the Roy Building, where it was said that those arrested were being taken. Federal law enforcement began targeting the protesters who gathered outside. You can imagine that being a federal building, for one, and also a detention center, like a perhaps concept of a temporary jail kind of thing, right? They're not going to allow protesters to breach that building. So they already had the tear gas come out. Our own reporter, who was right there, you heard her coughing. Officers used tear gas and foam bullets. The LAPD was called in to respond. Individual protesters were isolated and beaten in various locations. In one case, a mounted officer appeared to force his horse to trample a suspect lying on the ground. Stephen Miller had this meeting in late May where he told agents from around the country that not enough people were being deported and that their focus should not be on criminals and on the target list and that they've traditionally used, but on just going out and finding anyone who's in the country illegally and deporting them. And he said, why don't you try Home Depot? And why don't you try 7 11? And lo and behold, here. Just weeks later, an operation appeared imminent at One Home Depot south of Los Angeles in Paramount, California. The government later denied this was the case and said the officers were simply setting up an office. But at any rate, demonstrators began to gather. With the protest expanding into nearby Compton. Saturday night, Governor Gavin Newsom announced that despite the situation having largely settled, President Trump was planning to federalize California National Guard members and to deploy them to the region. Newsom's response at first was, to me, disappointing and incomplete. He denounced what the federal government was doing, but hours passed before he provided more information or explained how he would take action. This halting response has not been unusual among elected Democrats, as the overall dealing with Trump's aggression and lawlessness has tended to be reactive rather than proactive. I wondered, where was the communication to residents about what would come next and how the state would oppose this overreach by the federal government. Where were the reminders to members of the Guard about their legal role and responsibilities? Or where to call for help if a crisis came up? But later that evening, Newsom began to address some of these issues. On Sunday, he called the decision to deploy the Guard unlawful. He accused Trump of trying to manufacture a crisis and violating California's state sovereignty. By late Sunday night, the governor dared Director of Enforcement and Removal Operations Tom Homan to carry through on earlier veiled threats to arrest him. He's a tough guy. Why doesn't he do that? He knows where to find me. But you know what? Lay your hands off four year old girls that are trying to get educated. Lay your hands off these poor people just trying to get live their lives, man. Trying to live their lives, paying their taxes. Been here 10 years. The fear, the horror, the hell is this guy? Come after me, arrest me. Let's just get it over with, tough guy. California Attorney General Rob Bonta and Governor Newsom announced there would be legal action seeking to nullify the president use of the National Guard. Even as Trump moved to deploy Marines from nearby 29 Palms, David Huerta remained detained for days as other unions and supporters began demonstrating for him around the country. Monday, he was released and charged with a felony for interfering with arrest, allegedly. Meanwhile, the demonstrations continued at various locations. In Pasadena, protesters discovered ICE was staying at a local hotel and possibly intimidating staff there. By late afternoon, musicians joined the protest, playing songs aimed at la migra, a term used to refer to Immigration and Customs Enforcement. They demonstrated outside the building and in the end, hotel management asked ICE to leave. When word came down that Marines were preparing to be deployed, veterans and others demonstrated at Camp Pendleton, opposing the use of troops against city residents. For him to put out that order to be ready, we may need you to go on the streets. That makes me heartsick as a veteran. This move to include the National Guard and now the Marines is a grim turn, not only because the invocations appear to be done through an irregular and possibly illegal process, but also because there is no crisis at hand. Let's take a look outside because I want you to see what it's like.
- [11:24]
Rui Carlos Sa
In Hollywood right now.
- [11:26]
Andrea Pitzer
You won't see this elsewhere on Telev. Not only is it not an apocalypse, they're having a Disney Pixar movie premiere right now for Elio movie about aliens. Don't tell Trump. He'll send the Green Berets in too. The unrest was Created by ICE and law enforcement themselves, violence has been limited and manageable and largely subsided before troops were called in. This is a big test for Trump's control over the military, because in his first administration, he didn't have top brass on board with him for the most part, and never got to test whether the rank and file might follow illegal orders executed domestically against US Residents and citizens. In a second administration, now populated by sycophants and grifters, there will likely be less resistance to illegal orders in Los Angeles. The governor of California, the mayor of Los Angeles. Despite his popularity with many service members, it's not yet clear that the troops would carry out illegal orders against Americans in his name. They're engaged in this willful attempt to nullify federal law and aid the occupation of the city by criminal invaders. That's what it is. They're invaders. All these events, however, make this particular moment a critical one to show public resistance to abuses of presidential authority. Authoritarian regimes begin by targeting people who are least able to defend themselves. But they do not stop there. Trump and his loyalists, they thrive on division because it allows them to take more power and exert even more control. Actions against these abuses can happen in the streets, offices, houses of worship and homes everywhere, and will unfold in countless ways. Monday, on the other side of the country, NIH employees similarly stood up for what was right, albeit in a different way. They issued what they call the Bethesda Declaration, after the location of the headquarters of the National Institutes of Health in Maryland, an open letter to NIH Director Jay Bhattacharya pointing out the damage being done to NIH funding and research and the current catastrophic effects of the second Trump administration there. By calling their letter a declaration. NIH workers were responding to Bhattacharya's own involvement with the Great Barrington Declaration, a broadly discredited effort in 2020 to take issue with COVID policies. Without endorsing any of that 2020 declaration, signatories echoed the importance of the right to dissent, noting that Bhattacharya himself had promised in April to establish a culture of respect for free speech in science and scientific dissent at the nih. This is what they're modeling their dissent on, saying essentially that they appreciate the director's openness to not suppressing different scientific ideas. Their statement about what is happening now, we dissent. What they're taking issue with here is the termination of a number of grants in different areas, from health equity to the effects of climate change on Health COVID 19 and other areas, as well as a number of other policies they say are damaging the NIH and keeping it from fulfilling its mission of improving health. Since Trump's return to the White House, NIH has ended some 2,100 grants worth more than $12 billion. More than 300 current NIH workers signed the letter with Employees from all 27 NIH Institutes and Centers expressing support for the document. More than 90 of them did so publicly. Using their names, they focused on five immediate issues, not speculating on future damage, but focusing on harms already underway due.
- [15:30]
Rui Carlos Sa
To the current administration and Director Bhattacharya's politicization and disruption of life saving biomedical research. I've talked to researchers across the country and at the nih, and right now cancer patients are not receiving novel cancer treatments and are being cut off when.
- [15:47]
Andrea Pitzer
Their only other option is hospice care. The signers accused Bhattacharya of politicizing research, of interrupting global collaboration, of undermining peer review, of imposing a blanket 15% cap on indirect costs for grants and firing essential NIH personnel, all of which they say is destructive to the mission of the National Institutes of Health. The harms that I'm seeing, though, in my role at NIH are trials where people have implanted devices inside their bodies being terminated with no safety protocol, no shutdown procedures, so participants are being left in the lurch, right? The letter further denounces the director for failing to use congressionally appropriated funds for critical NIH research. What we see on the ground is.
- [16:38]
Rui Carlos Sa
Not thoughtful review of research.
- [16:41]
Andrea Pitzer
It is keywords and phrases that this administration doesn't like that is causing studies to be terminated. Last weekend I had a chance to talk to Rui Carlos Sa, one of the public signatories, and I found the both the aim of the public letter as well as his personal decision to go public, both powerful examples of the kinds of things that we can all be doing in the current crisis. I first met Rebeck in February on President's Day. At the first no Kings protest. He had come with his family. His wife carried a poster about Today's.
- [17:23]
Rui Carlos Sa
Research are tomorrow's cure.
- [17:25]
Andrea Pitzer
Weirdly enough, they recognized me from the podcast and reintroduced me to others from NIH who had come to the demonstration, including at least one person in a very precarious situation who was risking a lot by even showing up. This weekend, Re reached out to me, telling me about the NIH letter ahead of its publication. He said he was willing to talk on the record about the declaration and his involvement, while emphasizing that he didn't want to glamorize his role or suggest that his larger set of opinions were held by all signatories.
- [17:58]
Rui Carlos Sa
There are video recordings of the NIH director when he invited everyone to dissent and tell us what you think is wrong, what we can do better. And I think our goal here was exactly that. Tell us how we can do better, what's going on, what can still be fixed at NIH before it's too late.
- [18:15]
Andrea Pitzer
Re reference the collaborative nature of NIH and explain how that nature was reflected in the way the Declaration came together. An original core group of little more than a dozen conceived of the idea and then began inviting others, we among them, to participate. In the end, colleagues drafted a letter and were invited to sign anonymously or publicly, and could change their minds about which state to pick until right up to the last moment. The letter went live Monday at 8am and along with the issues brought up in the Declaration, which deliberately focus on the immediate measurable harms underway, Rhee also answered my questions about his personal concerns about the future of the institution which he loves.
- [19:02]
Rui Carlos Sa
America has built an entire biomedical ecosystem on this partnership with universities, for example, and now the Trump administration is using that as a weapon. That's one of the things we cite in the letter to obtain subjugation or some degree of control over universities like Columbia and Harvard being two of the most spoken out there. There's a bunch more. And what that is doing is destroying the entire ecosystem of biomedical research in the US and there will be a time when the destruction will be such that it's not repairable anymore that we've crossed the threshold.
- [19:32]
Andrea Pitzer
I really love this comment that RUI made.
- [19:34]
Rui Carlos Sa
96 to 99% of all drugs developed and authorized in the US at some point went through NIH funding. So think of that. That's the role of government. We're going where others don't go. We put money where others, where the risk is too high.
- [19:49]
Andrea Pitzer
One of the challenges under this administration, and in any crisis of authoritarian overreach really is is figuring out when to work discreetly and quietly and when to take a public stand, knowing that people like Rui can still be helping to defend grants and keep money flowing to valid work for as long as possible. I wondered how he weighed the decision to speak out, given that dissent has not been tolerated in either Trump administration, but seems particularly unwelcome since Trump's return to office. Rui acknowledged that it's probably impossible to pick a perfect moment to go, but he had several comments that I found really moving, so I want to share some of his words Especially those about speaking out at length here. And on speaking out, he said, it's.
- [20:42]
Rui Carlos Sa
An individual choice because every action you take today has a higher risk than it had a year ago. And every chance. And what I did is certainly not possible for some of my colleagues. And that's also why I do it. I mean, I do it because I can, because my wife makes more money than me and I can afford to be fired for a few months and I work in an area that is high employability. So if I leave the government, this was my choice, but I will find a job.
- [21:05]
Andrea Pitzer
He emphasized to listeners, don't hammer yourself.
- [21:09]
Rui Carlos Sa
For when you're unable to do something. There are people who shouldn't be out in the streets and shouldn't be out demonstrating because they are targets, because they.
- [21:15]
Andrea Pitzer
Are.
- [21:17]
Rui Carlos Sa
At risk in the current environment.
- [21:18]
Andrea Pitzer
The risk assessment has to be a lot more detailed depending on your circumstances. Yet where possible, he encouraged people to speak up.
- [21:27]
Rui Carlos Sa
We still can demonstrate. We can still show numbers, we can still call our Congress people, our senators, and do something. And then what I emphasize, and that comes a lot from you, and maybe that gravitated to your podcast also because of that. But the emphasis on community, on talking to your neighbors, on building that big tent, or on making, or making them understand, even if they have different views, especially if they have different views, that what's going on and it's by no means dumbing down. It's our duty to actually make what we have to say intelligible to others so they understand what's going on, so they understand the impact tomorrow and five years from now. And I think one of our problems at NIH is that the impact of cutting NIH today won't be felt tomorrow. It will be felt in five years, it will be felt in 20 years, and it can be really catastrophic in 20.
- [22:14]
Andrea Pitzer
Noting that showing up in your community allows you to support those who are suffering from the consequences of the crises unleashed on the country, we also pointed out that by acting close to home, you're allowing others to see your point of view and your different perspective about what's going on.
- [22:33]
Rui Carlos Sa
Maybe you'll change a couple of minds.
- [22:40]
Andrea Pitzer
I believe that we and the other signatories of the Bethesda Declaration did Monday is another form of what the greater Los Angeles community was up to in the last week and even before that.
- [22:51]
Rui Carlos Sa
We are working people and we are not a trash can for the president.
- [22:58]
Andrea Pitzer
This is not.
- [22:59]
Rui Carlos Sa
I don't understand if this is his.
- [23:02]
Andrea Pitzer
Way to make America great again, destroy.
- [23:05]
Rui Carlos Sa
Our people, destroy our communities. Destroying America. That's what he's doing.
- [23:09]
Andrea Pitzer
In both cases, people assessed the situation and decided to take action to correct a wrong that they were witnessing. The effort in D.C. was planned strategically as a response to actions that have been unfolding for months. The LA examples of resistance were in most cases responding to a fast moving crisis that required immediate action. But in each situation, elected leadership was lagging or absent initially and people with much less power stepped in. During our conversation, Rhee noted that a lack of leadership was one of the reasons we're standing up.
- [23:45]
Rui Carlos Sa
Leaders are not, so we need to, and that's true for the Democratic Party and that's true within nih. A lot of people get this idea that if I get kicked out I'll be replaced by someone worse, which is probably true. But if that leads you to not stand up, then you're useless too.
- [23:59]
Andrea Pitzer
What can the rest of us do? Like the protesters over the weekend, you can find out if ICE is staying at a local hotel and demonstrate in front of it, or ask the management if they're hosting agents. You can figure out if your local community has ICE partnerships and work to block law enforcement or other groups from cooperating with them. You can volunteer with immigrant support groups helping families with loved ones in detention.
- [24:22]
Rui Carlos Sa
Support your local community if you are.
- [24:24]
Andrea Pitzer
Someone with means who can't get out to protest because of disability or risk or other obligations, you can give money to bail funds to support those who can show up. In preparation for this Saturday, June 14, which is no Kings Day in the US you can pour over a lovely map of events@nokings.org it shows a broad range of what you can attend. I see that there are community gatherings planned in Falls Church, Virginia, where I live, as well as the city where I was born, several hundred miles north of here, and at least a dozen happenings in the state of West Virginia where I grew up. Remember that huge day of protests, the hands off protests? There were over 1,000 protests scheduled that day all over the country against Trump. Well, this weekend, this Saturday, June 14th, there are already more than 1800 protests scheduled against Trump all around the country. It's going to be like twice the size of that massive day of protests that we saw on April 5. Every state has multiple options and a few of them around the country will hold key events that you should try to get to if you can. Philly, Phoenix, Houston, Atlanta, Charlotte, New York and Chicago. Organizers are encouraging people to stay away from D.C. during Trump's birthday parade. The hoopla is ostensibly for the Army's birthday. But oddly enough, there are no presidential parades planned on anniversaries for other branches, whose 250th anniversary also falls this year. But not on a day that is Donald Trump's birthday. This is a democracy, and in a democracy, power depends on the people. It flows from the people. It depends on the consent of the governed. And on Saturday, we're going to show up to make that point very clear. Between LA and DC in the last week, we have so many examples of what to do. Mess things up, slow fascists down, file official complaints, go to court, weigh your risk. Act where you can recognize when you can speak up more safely than others. Put a wrench in the gears. Thousands of young men died on Omaha Beach 81 years ago this month, and they died to save strangers from Nazis. Very few of us today in the US Will be asked to make anything close to that kind of sacrifice for anybody's freedom. And unlike those soldiers, we are free to engage on our own terms. Detainees who were put in camps all over the world in the 20th century still managed to resist, as did civil rights protesters during Jim Crow who were confronted with hostile law enforcement, fire hoses and dogs. I've mentioned before that people who put themselves on the line in the George Floyd protests made a measurable difference in the trajectory of the 2020 election. All these people have left us a legacy. It's up to us to care as much about the world, the country, our communities, and each other as they did. And that's it. Thanks for listening to Next Comes what? Please share this with anyone who's looking for ways to help each other survive this mess. To support this podcast, Please subscribe@Andreapitzer.com and consider giving Next Comes what? A five star review where you get your podcasts.