Next Comes What

Episode: "Poking Holes in Fascism"

Host: Andrea Pitzer
Date: December 4, 2025

Overview

In this powerful episode, author and journalist Andrea Pitzer delves into what can be learned from the world’s history of strongmen, state violence, and resistance, mapping those lessons onto current U.S. politics under President Trump’s second term. Through case studies, contemporary reporting, and historical analogies, Pitzer argues that small fissures in authoritarian structures—driven by principled actions, public outrage, and legal interventions—can accumulate, leading to meaningful change, even if victory isn’t immediate or obvious. The episode aims to inspire listeners to take action, stressing that every small act is a potential blow against growing authoritarianism.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Latest Atrocity: U.S. Boat Strikes in the Caribbean

• Extrajudicial Killings: Pitzer opens by spotlighting a recent U.S. military operation where survivors of a drug boat were reportedly executed (00:00–01:15).
• Political Fallout: Bipartisan criticism emerges, with Senator Tim Kaine calling the incident “a war crime” (02:00), and even some Republicans not dismissing the allegations.
  • “We're going to try to get to the facts.” — Senate committee member (01:58)
  • “In one instance, there were two survivors... If they were narco traffickers, why would we do that?” — Senator Tim Kaine (02:08)
• Presidential Response: Trump responds evasively, implying the initial strike was justified but denying knowledge or intent behind the follow-up killings (02:43–03:02).

2. Signs of Institutional Resistance

• Congressional Oversight and Pushback:
  • Senate attempts to reassert war powers (03:44–04:25), aiming to prevent war with Venezuela without congressional approval.
  • Growing bipartisan opposition to U.S. military action in Venezuela: “A late November poll showed that 70% of Americans opposed the US taking military action in Venezuela.” — Andrea Pitzer (05:04)
• Manipulating Laws for Authoritarian Ends: Discussion on alleged attempts to use the Alien Enemies Act to justify mass deportations, reverse-engineering causus belli (05:26–05:45).
  • “They then realized the Alien Enemies act required a war, so then they declared a war. Then they needed a reason for the war, so then they reverse engineered some.” — Andrea Pitzer (05:38)
• Republicans Splintering:
  • Mention of key figures (Ted Cruz, Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene) either undermining Trump, resisting his policies, or retiring amid chaos (05:47–09:52).
  • “At some point we have to stand up... You can't validate slurs like that and rhetoric like that.” — Indiana State Senator Michael Bohasic (09:14)

3. Business and Legal Influences

• Financial Sector’s Caution: JP Morgan's Jamie Dimon refuses to fund a Trump White House project, citing ethical and legal risks (10:47).
  • “We have to be very careful how anything is perceived and also how the next DOJ is going to deal with it.” — Jamie Dimon (10:47)
• Judicial Resistance:
  • A federal judge (James Bosberg) is pressing a contempt probe against the administration for deporting Venezuelan immigrants without due process, despite political pressure and attempted overruling (11:05–13:31).
  • Controversial removals of Trump-affiliated attorneys (Alina Habba, Lindsey Halligan) over legal technicalities, hampering the administration’s efforts (13:31–14:34).

4. The Accumulation of Small Acts

• Cumulative Effect of Many Small Rebellions: Pitzer strongly asserts that these moments—whether legal, bureaucratic, or symbolic—are all “poking holes” in the authoritarian structure (15:14–15:31).
  • “Each shift against the president creates small rifts that have the opportunity to turn into large ones. One of them, or something similar, will eventually trigger an end to his power.” — Andrea Pitzer (15:17)
• Historical Case Studies:
  • Kenya’s Hola Massacre and British Withdrawal (15:31–18:01)
    • Cover-up of a prison massacre leads to British public outrage and eventual Kenyan independence.
    • “But it was the lies told about the deaths of those 11 men at the Holla camp... that turned the tide in England against the bloody suppression of Kenyan independence.” — Andrea Pitzer (17:49)
  • Argentina’s Falklands War and End of the Junta (18:11–18:51)
  • Nixon and Watergate (19:25–20:57)
    • “It took nearly two years of relentless investigation... to force Nixon's resignation in August 1974.” — Andrea Pitzer (20:27)
  • Guantanamo Bay Legal Battles (21:18–22:46)
    • Stepwise, cumulative legal challenges eventually establish limited rights for detainees, illustrating that partial victories matter.

5. The Importance of Persistence and Individual Action

• Persistence Pays Off: Even when victory is not absolute or immediate, blocking parts of an authoritarian agenda saves future victims.
  • “If you can't save everyone, you can often save someone. And if you can't save someone, you can prevent somebody from ending up in that same place.” — Andrea Pitzer (23:08)
• Civil Rights Movement Analogy:
  • Rosa Parks’ Bus Protest and the Montgomery Bus Boycott (23:36–25:07): Incremental steps led by “quiet people” with deep political training ultimately shift society.
    • “Her story tells us that you don't have to always have been a leader to do something important and to make an impact.” — Guest commentator (25:20)
• Call to Action:
  • Pitzer encourages listeners to take whatever actions are within their ability, from supporting candidates to opposing ICE practices to helping neighbors (26:25–28:39).
    • “There is so much money coming down to put your neighbors into camps to abuse protesters and worse. Every part of that that gets blocked is a win.” — Andrea Pitzer (27:11)
  • Community and religious leaders can also take a stand, often sparking important conversations about justice and dignity at the local level (29:59–31:48).
    • “We have to look for ways of treating people humanely, treating people with the dignity that they have.” — Minister (31:10)

6. Concluding Message: Opening Doors for the Future

• No Certainty, but Every Act Matters:
  • “The point is to keep opening doors to better possibilities. Maybe what you do will be some tiny part of something crucial.” — Andrea Pitzer (28:39)
• Do What You Can: There is value in both large and small actions, and together they create opportunities for broader change.
• Final Encouragement:
  • “Go right to the edge of what you can do, see what's possible and keep moving.” — Andrea Pitzer (31:48)

Memorable Quotes and Moments with Timestamps

• “The order was to kill everyone.” — Andrea Pitzer quoting sources (00:00)
• “This rises to the level of a war crime.” — Senator Tim Kaine (02:00)
• “We don't just want people who mindlessly follow orders. We want people who think.” — Guest/Commentator (03:35)
• “At some point we have to stand up and you can't. You can't validate slurs like that and rhetoric like that.” — Indiana State Senator Michael Bohasic (09:14)
• “You can't save everyone, you can often save someone. And if you can't save someone, you can prevent somebody from ending up in that same place.” — Andrea Pitzer (23:08)
• “Her story tells us you don't have to always have been a leader to do something important and make an impact.” — Guest/Commentator, on Rosa Parks (25:20)
• “If you wait for the odds of certain victory to act, you'll never do anything. It all starts with smaller actions.” — Andrea Pitzer (26:25)
• “There is so much money coming down to put your neighbors into camps... Every part of that that gets blocked is a win.” — Andrea Pitzer (27:11)
• “We have to look for ways of treating people humanely, treating people with the dignity that they have.” — Minister (31:10)
• “Go right to the edge of what you can do, see what's possible and keep moving.” — Andrea Pitzer (31:48)

Notable Segments with Timestamps

• Boat Killings and Congress’s Reaction: 00:00–04:44
• Polling and Public Sentiment on Venezuela Crisis: 04:44–05:19
• Republican Splintering and Backroom Maneuvers: 05:35–09:52
• Business and Legal Professionals Resist: 10:47–14:34
• Historical Cascades and Pivotal Moments: 15:31–22:28
• Civil Rights Case Study (Rosa Parks, Montgomery): 23:36–25:39
• Tactical Advice and Calls to Action: 26:25–32:12

Tone and Style

Andrea Pitzer maintains a calm, deeply reflective, and historically literate tone throughout, interweaving clear, forceful moral judgment with measured, practical advice. The conversation is sober but ultimately hopeful, never underestimating the danger but always encouraging individual and collective agency.

Summary: Takeaway

“Poking Holes in Fascism” frames authoritarian power as something that can be eroded by persistent, principled resistance across institutions and society. Pitzer insists you need not wait for dramatic victory—every door cracked open and every small win counts. The episode is a call for vigilance, courage, and creative action, rooted in historical example and bolstered by unfolding current events.