Next Comes What – "Survival shouldn’t require sainthood"

Host: Andrea Pitzer
Date: January 29, 2026

Episode Overview

Andrea Pitzer explores America’s recent surge in anti-immigrant violence and the public’s reaction, connecting these events to the historical rise of strongmen, the evolution of mass detention, and the dangers of only defending those deemed “innocent.” Drawing from her research on concentration camps and authoritarianism, Pitzer calls for broad-based, intersectional resistance against encroaching state violence—and questions the common narrative that innocence is a precondition for survival and justice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recent Murders as a National Turning Point

• Renee Goode and Alex Priddy were killed amidst a “wave of terror unleashed against immigrants” ([00:04]).
• The public reactions reflect a possible “turning point in the attempt to stop the purges now underway” ([00:19]).
• Public rallies, such as the 15,000-person protest in Minneapolis, have been peaceful and significant ([05:00]).
• Andrea stresses these aren’t isolated incidents: “It’s into your Second Amendment, it’s into your Fourth Amendment, it’s into your Sixth Amendment” ([09:00]).

2. Narrative Traps: Innocence as a Condition for Sympathy

• The urge to highlight the “goodness” or “innocence” of victims is common but dangerous.
• Quote: “When someone is killed by law enforcement of any kind, there’s often a rush to try to show that they were good enough people that they deserved not to be shot.” ([12:15])
• Andrea warns this is a trap: “Only being able to mourn or demand justice for the purely innocent binds the public into a tighter and tighter trap that ultimately harms everyone.” ([41:00])
• She maintains that, “If the government can bend the laws... it’s possible to make it so that no one is innocent and no one has the right to demand justice for themselves or anyone else.” ([43:18])

3. Historical Parallels: The Rise of Camps and Legalized Oppression

• Drawing from her book, One Long Night: A Global History of Concentration Camps, Pitzer identifies mass civilian detention without trial (often on ethnic/political grounds) as the key trait of concentration camps ([15:00]).
• Examples trace the evolution of camps:
  • Imperial China and Rome (forced labor)
  • Nazi Germany’s incremental legal restrictions leading life to be “almost impossible” for Jews ([23:20])
  • Myanmar’s Rohingya, South Africa under apartheid, Jim Crow America ([26:00])
• Andrea highlights, “What the Trump administration is doing now to make life similarly illegal for immigrants... is very similar.” ([28:40])

4. Erosion of Due Process & Expansion of Detention

• Current U.S. practices mirror past regimes:
  • ICE detaining a record 65,700 people by late 2025, with 73% having no criminal conviction ([30:10]).
  • Undocumented immigrants and even U.S. citizens face arbitrary detention and violence.
  • Local law enforcement sometimes gets targeted by federal agents based on appearance ([32:00]).
• The system undermines innocence and due process: “You take away the moms, they’re the cornerstones of the family, the cornerstones of the community.” ([19:55])

5. Privilege, Solidarity, and Resistance

• Our safest citizens and the privileged must stand with the targeted: “There’s a level of privilege we have, we have comfortable lives here... we can use [that] to do some good.” - (Minnesota grassroots organizer, [33:55])
• Grassroots action:
  • Pink Poster Club provides civil rights info & monitors ICE ([33:00]).
  • Examples of recent solidarity efforts, peaceful protest, observer networks.

6. The Dangers of Exception: The Case of Geraldo Lunas Campos

• Lunas Campos (with a criminal record) died in ICE custody under suspicious circumstances ([48:30]).
• “That death should be getting the same kind of outrage, or even more, because it was done secretly in a detention camp where accountability will be that much harder to get.” ([52:00])
• Quote: “If they can break the law to kill Geraldo Lunas Campos, they can break the law to kill you.” ([54:12])
• Andrea notes that focusing only on the blameless victim leaves everyone vulnerable, as government definitions of “innocent” can change overnight.

7. Action Steps and Closing Advice

• Plug into local networks, campaign for abolition, target ICE contractors/vendors, pressure politicians ([01:03:00]).
• “Don’t let anyone tell you that murder is only murder if the victim was a saint.” ([01:06:50])
• Highlighted community organizing in Durant, OK—local pushback can succeed ([01:05:00]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the limits of the “innocence narrative”:
  “It is so important to talk about the beauty of their lives and how they lived them, to share that loss and to demand justice for the loss. Yet... it can be a dangerous step... Only being able to mourn or demand justice for the purely innocent binds the public into a tighter and tighter trap that ultimately harms everyone.” (Andrea Pitzer, [41:00])

• On the present danger:
  “I feel like we’re performing CPR on what may already be a corpse called the Constitution.” (Andrea Pitzer, [39:31])

• On privilege and resistance:
  “There’s a level of privilege we have, we have comfortable lives here in Evanston. Like there is a safety that we have and that that privilege we can use to do some good.” (Community activist, [33:55])

• On expanding governmental abuse:
  “Without hard pushback now, the government will secure the ability to punish anyone they want, whenever they want.” (Andrea Pitzer, [01:01:00])

• On what real justice demands:
  “It’s to insist on human rights for everyone and to create a system in which punishment is not the central and defining feature of government for huge sections of the population, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits.” (Andrea Pitzer, [01:03:45])

Important Timestamps

• 00:04–05:00: Public mourning and protests after killings in Minneapolis & LA
• 15:00–19:55: Definition/history of concentration camps; parallels to current U.S. practice
• 28:40–32:00: Legal recategorization of immigrants and minorities; ICE/Border Patrol abuses
• 33:00–36:00: Grassroots resistance; Pink Poster Club and community self-organizing
• 39:31–41:00: Dangers of innocence narratives; “CPR on the Constitution”
• 48:30–54:12: Case of Geraldo Lunas Campos; deaths inside detention, accountability demands
• 01:03:00–01:06:50: Concrete resistance steps; “murder is only murder if the victim was a saint” critique

Conclusion

Pitzer’s central argument: In a climate of state violence and mass detention, justice and survival cannot depend on sainthood or innocence. The fight must be for universal rights, an end to dehumanizing systems, and broad, organized resistance in every community.