What NO KINGS Means

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What NO KINGS Means"

Podcast: Next Comes What
Host: Andrea Pitzer
Date: October 23, 2025
Episode Theme: Learning from the rise of strongmen worldwide to resist Trump’s authoritarianism

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Overview of the Episode

Andrea Pitzer explores the massive "no Kings" protests across the US—an unprecedented, nationwide anti-Trump demonstration framed around resisting authoritarianism. The episode unpacks the meaning of the “no Kings” slogan, the significance of mass protest in today's America, and how lessons from other countries’ experiences with strongmen can help prevent and resist autocratic backsliding. Pitzer and guests reflect on protest strategies, the risks participants face, the need for collective action, and the importance of inclusivity, highlighting both the celebratory and serious currents of the movement.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Scale & Symbolism of the No Kings Protests

• Historic turnout: Organizers cite 5.2–8.2 million participants, estimated as the largest single-day protest in modern US history ([00:01]).
• Protests took place in over 2,600 locations, including every state and small towns in Alaska ([01:06]).
• Symbol: "No Kings" frames opposition to Trump's perceived monarchic behavior as fundamentally American, rooted in anti-authoritarian tradition ([05:03]).

“No thrones, no crowns, no kings.” – Activist/Speaker ([05:03])

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2. Movement Leadership & Next Steps

• Ezra Levin (Indivisible): The march is just the beginning—real change requires evolving tactics, not just single days of action ([02:43]-[02:59]).
  • Aim: “Reduce harm, fracture the coalition that is pushing this authoritarian overreach and regain some power so we can usher in an era of accountability...” ([02:43])
  • Successful movements are dynamic, responsive, and persistent.

“Successful movements evolve and grow and mature and engage in new tactics.” – Ezra Levin ([02:59])

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3. Protest Atmosphere & Demographics

• Festive and inclusive: Inflatable costumes, humor, and a sense of fun were widespread, which research shows helps lower barriers to entry for newcomers ([05:51], [14:42]).
• Diversity: While still predominantly white and educated, there was visible youth participation and more intergenerational presence ([04:03], [12:31], [13:14]).
• Safety: Police largely abstained from violence or arrests, which is itself a signal of shifting dynamics ([21:58]).
• Not all activists see this “party” style as positive, but hosts argue any engagement is valuable ([25:03]).

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4. Risks, Reactions, and Authoritarian Backlash

• Rising stakes: Many participants questioned their safety or faced threats and government rhetoric framing them as “terrorists” ([15:52], [16:45]).
• Delegitimization tactics: Trump administration ties opposition to criminality or terrorism — a “classic authoritarian move” ([15:52]).

“The most recent development that concerns me is this rhetoric coming from the president... increasingly linking the broad opposition, any opposition to terrorism, to criminality, and so delegitimizing the entire opposition. ... That's a classic authoritarian move.” – Andrea Pitzer ([15:52])

• Despite risks, the turnout itself was profoundly meaningful—a visible rejection of fear, signaling to politicians, media, and the judiciary ([11:42], [12:10]).

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5. Protest Efficacy and Movement Building

• Nonviolent mass action: Researchers and activists agree that peaceful, visible dissent wins more support and makes future participation easier ([24:29], [24:46]).
• Momentum and recruitment: The broad, low-risk, and festive approach is strategic for getting more “normies” involved and shifting public perception of what’s possible ([13:14], [18:39]).
• Tensions exist over protest style and seriousness, but diversity of tactics is ultimately a strength ([25:03]).

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6. Changing Attitudes Toward Violence

• Significant decline in support for violent political action among protest attendees (from 38% disagreeing at a previous event to 59% at this one) ([13:55]).
• Reflects increased backlash to assassination and violence, and more hopefulness as visible resistance grows ([17:06]).

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7. Institutional Responses and Power Struggles

• Some police departments seemed to “thumb their nose” at federal pressure for confrontation, instead signaling peaceful protest was tolerated ([21:58], [23:53]).
• This may be a pragmatic calculation for local interests or an indicator of splintering within state power ([23:53]).
• Nationwide, local demonstrations can change perceptions even in Trump strongholds ([29:08]).

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8. Calls for Action and Next Steps

• General strike: Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson called for a general strike, suggesting the movement is gaining labor backing ([19:18]).
• The episode highlights the need for concrete, ongoing activism, not just one-off events—mutual aid, community organizing, and “building the world you want” ([32:39]).
• Emphasis that protest is just a start: “We have to normalize dominant American culture being one that stands up for the vulnerable against these abuses.” ([23:53])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Are we afraid?... Did they scare us off?... Are we getting back down now? That's right. Because what we are doing here today is as American as apple pie. We are standing up for our rights. We are standing up for our neighbors.” – Protester ([04:32])
• “It is up to us to save us.” – Activist/Speaker ([05:27])
• “The message is that, yes, this is an authoritarian government, it's violating the law... But this is a very contested process. The game is not up. This is contested, and there is a lot of muscle out there in society fighting back.” – Andrea Pitzer ([12:10])
• “If my ancestors as slaves can lead the greatest general strike in the history of this country, taking it to the ultra rich and big corporations, we can do the same today.” – Activist/Speaker ([19:18])
• “It's very difficult to, with a straight face, look into the camera and call protesters in frog outfits dangerous terrorists.” – Andrea Pitzer ([21:18])
• “Fascism is part the system and letting it get to this point because of one person. So I'm here to bring awareness to that and express my values as a citizen, as an American.” – Citizen/Participant ([26:23])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:01 – 01:06: Event scale and nationwide mobilization—intros and historical context
• 02:43 – 02:59: Movement vision—Ezra Levin on next steps beyond marching
• 04:32 – 05:03: Protester speeches; affirmation of democratic ideals
• 10:00 – 11:42: Research on protest demographics and risks—Erica Chenoweth
• 12:10 – 13:14: Andrea Pitzer on signaling, judiciary, and building movements
• 14:42 – 15:36: Importance of festival atmosphere—tactical frivolity
• 15:52 – 16:45: Risks, threats of violence, and authoritarian delegitimization
• 19:18 – 19:39: Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson’s call for a general strike
• 21:18 – 21:58: Satirical costumes defang authoritarian rhetoric
• 23:53 – 24:29: Police responses as PR and institutional bets
• 25:03 – 26:23: Diversity of activism and role of critics
• 29:08 – 30:04: Protest in red states and local impact
• 32:39 – 33:20: Concrete actions and closing advice

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Conclusions & Takeaways

• The "no Kings" movement is a powerful, historic demonstration of resistance to Trump’s authoritarianism—part protest, part celebration, and a clear rejection of kingly power.
• Mass mobilization, inclusivity, and nonviolent direct action send strong signals to all corners of society, including reluctant power holders and previously unengaged citizens.
• The movement’s diversity and creativity—while sometimes divisive—are sources of resilience and growth.
• Action must not stop with protest; lasting change will require a mosaic of local and national efforts, mutual aid, and concrete demands.
• Hope and momentum are building; history provides inspiration, but this moment demands new solutions drawn from wide participation and imagination.

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For listeners who want to help:
Go beyond critique—find or create your role, organize in your community, support mutual aid, and keep the pressure up. This moment of resistance can shift what’s possible.

Transcript

[Andrea Pitzer]

This is Boston.

[Host/Reporter]

Look at that. The no Kings demonstration. Organizers have estimated that some 7 million Americans came out on Saturday. Over the weekend, there were numerous and massive demonstrations across America to make a political statement against the current administration. There were more than 2,600 events from coast to coast. They are all part of the no Kings movement, which accuses the President of behaving more like a monarch than an elected official. G. Elliot Morris reports that the crowd was likely between 5.2 and 8.2 million. This is the third mass mobilization since Trump's return to the White House, and organizers say it is the largest in both cases. The numbers show that Saturday's anti Trump, pro democracy protests are likely the largest single day protest in modern American history. Tied to a war.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Yes.

[Host/Reporter]

And the largest demonstration of any kind since Earth day's debut in 1970.

[Activist/Speaker]

A unique day in American history is ending. A day set aside for a nationwide.

[Host/Reporter]

Outpouring of mankind seeking its own survival. Earth Day people marched through the nation's capital. The metro area of Washington, D.C. has the highest concentration of federal workers furloughed and fired. An estimated 200,000 people were in the nation's capital, gathered across the country in Chicago, Los Angeles and New York. They assembled in Charleston, West Virginia. They lined up in Kent, Ohio, head up to Alaska. At least 25 no Kings protests all across Alaska, including Nome and Homer and Juneau and Sitka. Basically every town of any size that you can name in Alaska and a bunch you've never heard of. They came together in Dublin. I myself went to Arlington Cemetery in Virginia along the Potomac to follow the march across the Memorial Bridge from the Virginia side into the District. It was all very, very celebratory and festive. Based on what I saw, what other people reported from around the country and some of the data that's come in, I have thoughts about the state of the resistance to Donald Trump.

[Skeptic/Critic]

They call it ocean drugs, a little.

[Host/Reporter]

Term that they use in the United States right now.

[Skeptic/Critic]

I was damaged very greatly.

[Host/Reporter]

So today I'll talk about that.

[Skeptic/Critic]

I looked at all the brand new signs. Paid for. I guess it was paid for by Soros.

[Host/Reporter]

But before I get started. So the question now is, where does this go from here? The most important thing to know is that what happened over the weekend is a beginning. Joining us now is Ezra Levin, co founder and co executive director of Indivisible, one of the leading organizers behind no Kings. But it has to be only the beginning.

[Ezra Levin]

Our goal is simple. We want to reduce harm, fracture the coalition that is pushing this authoritarian overreach and regain some power so we can usher in an era of accountability and.

[Host/Reporter]

Reform if we're going to stop the authoritarianism that's expanding and solidifying in government and society today.

[Ezra Levin]

But we don't do this by just doing one day marches. Successful movements evolve and grow and mature and engage in new tactics.

[Host/Reporter]

We must act and do even more. The march I followed went from Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia across the Memorial Bridge. Demonstrators were walked around the Lincoln Memorial and down Constitution Avenue. They then diverted onto the National Mall to go by the Washington Monument and then continued down the mall to the main gathering between 3rd and 6th Streets along Pennsylvania Avenue.

[Activist/Speaker]

Thank you to the millions of Americans from our smallest towns to our largest cities in every state in our country who are gathering today at thousands of rallies.

[Host/Reporter]

It seemed to me that there were more young people than at prior events. But that might be because I spent most of the morning following a walking march that went for three miles. I'm here because we got to get ice out of the streets. And I'm here because I am a big supporter of women's rights, women's reproductive freedom, which would knock out a lot of much older folks and some people with disabilities. Although the march did have a small wheelchair brigade.

[Protester]

They tried to scare us out of gathering here today. And I've got a question for you. Are we afraid?

[Host/Reporter]

No.

[Protester]

Did they scare us off?

[Skeptic/Critic]

No.

[Protester]

Are we getting back down now? That's right. Because what we are doing here today is as American as apple pie. We are standing up for our rights. We are standing up for our neighbors.

[Host/Reporter]

The Portland frog and chicken both had a visible impact on the protests that I watched. And those costumes popped up again and again along with T. Rex, unicorns and many others.

[Activist/Speaker]

Rather than doing one monarch's bidding, we have agreed to form a democracy, to work together and to follow the laws that derive from it. No thrones, no crowns, no kings.

[Host/Reporter]

I saw little mention on signs of kitchen table issues that moderate Democrats in party leadership are building their resistance narrative around.

[Activist/Speaker]

Our democracy is in peril, but it can be saved. But no one's riding to our rescue. And I just want to be clear with you about that today. No one's riding to our rescue. There aren't establishment responsible Republicans. They're riding to our rescue. The mainstream media isn't riding to our rescue. There's no oligarchs riding to our rescue. It is up to us to save us.

[Host/Reporter]

Which isn't to say that those issues don't matter. In fact, they matter to me personally, they may just not be what's motivating people to turn out right now. Insurance rates, however, will soon go up tremendously for millions and millions of people, and that may become the impetus for several new protests on more specific themes. In my opinion, this whole process can be additive rather than zero sum.

[Activist/Speaker]

Here's the math that they are scared of. There are more of us than there are of them. We are the majority. Say it with me. We are the majority.

[Host/Reporter]

A subset of demonstrators were also extremely focused on the Epstein files.

[Skeptic/Critic]

Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

[Host/Reporter]

From signs calling Trump a chomo, which this weekend I learned means a child molester, to calls to release the Epstein.

[Skeptic/Critic]

Files, this guy's been talked about for years.

[Host/Reporter]

People are not forgetting about this piece of unfinished business. I talked to a law enforcement trio from a Louisiana National Guard unit that's been stationed along Constitution Avenue that day. They were keeping an eye on the march. Their commander said that they were enjoying the city and the people, and they hadn't been verbally harangued much over their presence since their arrival. They did come into town before this weekend, so they've been here for a while. And I mentioned that I'd heard many D.C. residents were unhappy over law enforcement or military personnel of any kind being sent to the city by the president for what felt like no good reason, but that I hadn't heard the kind of comments about the behavior of individual Guard members that I'd heard about ICE. My sense was that even if most residents of D.C. didn't want the Guard in their city, they saw them as separate from ice. I should hope so, the commander said, and it was interesting to me that he was obviously really taken aback by the idea that residents might not see them as different, and I'll talk a little bit more about that comment later. I'm from South Bend, Indiana, and I'm here to protest against the huge issues with Trump taking over the federal government and putting the military against our own citizens. I ran into a teacher named Katie and I asked her what had brought her out, and she told me that her family was a military one and that she was worried about where her loved ones might be sent into combat. She said she was worried about her child with an IEP and whether they would be able to get an education going forward. She also has an adopted African American daughter who is facing a more uncertain future on many fronts. She was worried about what teachers would even be allowed to teach at schools anymore. I love my country, she said, and I want people to know the real history of it, even when it's not pretty, we can make it better so that we can love it even more.

[Historian/Commentator]

Nobody here is under the illusion that this was a perfect union. That's not what we created. This was a compromise, a compromise of rich men, of white men, of slave holding men. But this imperfect union that they put together, it also gave us some fundamental rights to make it more perfect. Who has been using those rights? The abolitionists, the suffragists, the heroes of the civil rights movement, the leaders at Stonewall, the leaders in the Dreamer movement, and all of us here. All of us here.

[Host/Reporter]

Another person I spoke with was a Vietnam vet and a recipient of the Purple Heart from combat in Vietnam. And as a black man, when asked why he had come in from Maryland for the march, he said, I put my life on the line for democracy, not to have a dictatorship. I'm pissed off. As I said. Researchers seem to agree that Saturday was the largest single day protest about politics in US history.

[Erica Chenoweth]

My name is Erica Chenoweth and I'm the Frank Stanton professor of the First Amendment at Harvard Kennedy School.

[Host/Reporter]

But it's helpful to know a little bit more about what they found.

[Erica Chenoweth]

Let me introduce Steve Levitsky, professor of Latin American Studies at Harvard University. He's also co author with Daniel Ziblatt, of How Democracies Die.

[Host/Reporter]

American University professor Dana Fisher has been doing snapshot on the ground surveys of protests during the Trump administration. She found that, as with prior surveys, attendees were predominantly white and highly educated. 88% held a bachelor's degree or higher. More than half were women.

[Erica Chenoweth]

Pro democratic or pro democracy, civil society is pushing back. We are talking today on the heels of a historic mass mobilization in the United States.

[Host/Reporter]

I've talked before about this racial aspect and why it's likely necessary right now to. But the short version is that white Americans need to mobilize in big numbers to shift the dominant culture and also to stand up in places where people of color, and especially immigrants, might not be safe right now.

[Erica Chenoweth]

I also think that it is true that costs are unevenly borne across society. So there are clearly people who decided to stay home because they were too afraid to go out and engage in peaceful protest, in part because the government has actively been arresting and threatening to deport people for engaging in totally protected activity, writing op eds or engaging in protest in around issues that were adverse to the government. And so, you know, it is clear that, that not everyone was able to go out and protest in the manner in which you would expect them to be able to in a democracy, these.

[Host/Reporter]

Rallies were, on the whole, very low risk. But in my opinion, it's good that people of privilege, people without much experience, begin engaging.

[Andrea Pitzer]

That sends a really, really important signal to other members of community and society. But since other signals as well, it sends signals to politicians, both Democrats and Republicans, it sends signals to the media, it sends signals to judges. It's not true that judges operate, you know, completely autonomously of. Of society. They do pay attention to public opinion.

[Host/Reporter]

This is part of how you build a mass movement.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The message is that, yes, this is an authoritarian government, it's violating the law, it is imposing costs on people. But this is a very contested process. The game is not up. This is contested, and there is a lot of muscle out there in society fighting back.

[Host/Reporter]

And my sense from D.C. at least, was that this protest had more young people than the large ones that have taken place here earlier this year. But Fisher's survey suggests the median age this weekend was 44, which is actually a hair older than the June no Kings event that she looked at before, which made me wonder if perhaps a number of significantly older and significantly younger folks showed up and that the balance came out the same. When I wrote her about this question, she said, that is entirely possible. That and if you saw more young people at marches this weekend, that might be one explanation for why it wasn't showing up in the data.

[Andrea Pitzer]

If you don't have any political memories before Trump, or you're really not very happy with how our political system has worked in the 21st century, and there are good reasons for that, you're going to be a little slower. If you don't see a clear alternative to Trump, you're going to be a little slower. So I'm not shocked that youth have been a little slow, a little reluctant to mobilize, but I think eventually that young people will be at the forefront of protests against the Trump administration. Maybe that's more wishful thinking than analysis, but most protest movements have a really important youth component.

[Host/Reporter]

And in that email answering questions from me, she noted that one shift in responses this weekend was about one particular question. People were asked to agree or disagree or to neither agree nor disagree with the statement. Because things have gotten so far off track, Americans may have to resort to violence in order to save our country. On Saturday, 59% disagreed with that statement, in contrast to 38% at the June no Kings rally. Respondents asked how she interpreted this, Fisher replied, I had been noting at previous marches, including Hands off and no Kings, that we were seeing increasingly violent signs. But that was gone, and it was replaced by festive costumes, what some people.

[Erica Chenoweth]

Are calling the use of tactical frivolity or the sort of sense of festive spirit. This is so important for a couple of reasons. There's a study called Glee and Grievance. They were looking at the record of mass nonviolent campaigns, mostly over the 20th century, whether or not they involved, like, festive events under deeply autocratic conditions. And what they found was that when mass movements actually organize events that look like a party, more like a party than a scary protest, that more people tend to participate, even when it's a scary protest. Right. Even when there are real risks. And in the case of the United States, there was a lot of inflatable animals and the like, inspired by the ICE protests in Portland. You know, these actually signal that the movement is more positive and more fun than the movement against it.

[Host/Reporter]

There's no question that the recent assassinations and the violence we've seen from ICE in the National Guard, in cities, has played a role. We have to keep in mind that those who are standing against Trump are often not the ones who get to decide whether violence comes into play during a rally or protest.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I guess the most. The most recent development that concerns me is this rhetoric coming from the president, from the vice president, from other actors in the administration, increasingly linking the broad opposition, any opposition to terrorism, to criminality, and so delegitimizing the entire opposition. Linking George Soros to. To. To violence, linking mainstream Democrats and other critics of the administration to violence. That's. That's a classic authoritarian move.

[Host/Reporter]

The government typically has access to munitions and the capacity for violence far beyond the current means of those who oppose the president. And they are currently unleashing that violence around the world, at home on immigrants and also on US citizens.

[Andrea Pitzer]

7 million or so Americans went to the protest, which is great, but a significant fraction of them thought twice about it. They worried about it. We had to overcome a threat of violence, a criminalization, in terms of government figures calling this terrorist protest. So the fact that people showed up is incredibly important to me.

[Host/Reporter]

The shift toward more people who do not believe that political violence is necessary is likely due to two things. The response to the assassination of Charlie Kirk, as Fisher mentioned, while it doesn't currently appear to be the work of more than one person opposed to Kirk's policies, I do think that assassination led to a tremendous backlash. And it may be now that more people are sensitized, temporarily or not, to the costs of political violence. The shift may also mean that people are feeling less hopeless that seeing or taking part in a building momentum against Trump around the country is making some at least feel more powerful and less at the mercy of the president. I hope that, you know, we're creating awareness for a lot of the people who might not believe this is real or might believe the lies of this administration. Many people have said more or less great millions showed up, but no one actually made any demands that had to be met. They just showed up and went home. And in the long run, I've said that of course, demands will have to be made, specific goals will have to be pursued, sometimes at great, great cost. But first, we have to build a momentum, a movement beyond the core. People who have been safeguarding shards of our democracy while consistently being brutalized.

[Erica Chenoweth]

I just want to note that what we saw on Saturday was the growth of a movement that has been consistently growing, as far as I can tell, month over month, since Trump was inaugurated again in January of this year.

[Host/Reporter]

Any nationwide movement at the start is going to need to feel fun and welcoming, with low barriers to entry and emotional rewards for attending. For those who say this is babying people, that's fair enough. But many Americans have little or no experience with political action. And wresting the entire political landscape from those in power now is going to require more everyday people, more normies to get engaged. And the mere presence of that many people, 7 million or more, maybe, does begin to shift the window of possibility. Over the weekend, Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson called for a general strike.

[Activist/Speaker]

If my ancestors as slaves can lead the greatest general strike in the history of this country, taking it to the ultra rich and big corporations, we can do the same today.

[Host/Reporter]

Whatever your opinion of Johnson, for the mayor of a major US City to call for a general strike suggests a tremendous force is gathering.

[Activist/Speaker]

This is a fight for working people across this country and across this globe to stand up to billionaires in the interest of corporations.

[Host/Reporter]

These things take time. Yet we don't have a lot of time left to stop the administration's power grab.

[Andrea Pitzer]

This is in many ways much more aggressive in terms of the number of punches thrown at democratic institutions. Much more aggressive than the first year of Chavez in Venezuela, than Orban in Hungary, than Erdogan in Turkey.

[Host/Reporter]

And many thousands, including whole communities, are already being subjected to horrific violence and abuse. Some communities have already been organizing in very concrete ways and making demands in the face of significant oppression. Others are just recognizing that there's a problem that requires a response from them. That's going to create tensions. It's a dilemma, and that's our conundrum. But I think this weekend was a good step toward expanding the pool of people who want to be part of the solution. Going back for a moment to that National Guard officer that I was speaking to about how D.C. residents perceive any difference, or not, between ICE and the Guard, I would say don't underestimate how alarming millions of people in the street are to Trump's cohort. They understand the growing threat to them very well. The power represented by these millions and the very overt rejection of violence in these marches. And the administration, having tagged the marchers as populated by terrorists, is very useful now to the left as pr, the costumes, the singing, the mockery, it all has an effect.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It's very difficult to, with a straight face, look into the camera and call protesters in frog outfits dangerous terrorists.

[Host/Reporter]

The fact that the police did not, that the Guard did not instigate violence in many locations on Saturday, despite being handed an invitation on by the White House to do so, is very disturbing to Trump and his allies. They themselves would not hesitate to do harm.

[Andrea Pitzer]

You will not really, in almost any other elected authoritarian regime, even those that are much more repressive than this government, see such open displays of. Of authoritarianism and of sort of violent rhetoric and behavior.

[Host/Reporter]

To imagine anyone else choosing not to is unsettling. And one note about the police. The D.C. cops I saw at a Smithsonian Metro station Saturday afternoon said that they had not only not seen or responded to any incidents so far, they hadn't heard of other officers responding elsewhere either. Many departments, including the nypd, came out over the weekend to say in a very public way, that no arrests had been made and that the protests were peaceful. Their words were followed by Austin police, San Diego police and others. I would argue this is very good news, too. The reason is not because of some change of heart by the police or some rejection by the police of their traditional methods. It's not about reforming of department abuses. I've mentioned before that while groups can act morally to bring down authoritarian rule, often key power holders collide with each other. They split into factions in government, and there is a power struggle of who gets to control state violence. In this case, I'm saying that in various places, police are choosing to thumb their nose at the Trump administration. They are beginning to imagine themselves in an institutional role that might defy the President's overreach. It's in part a bet made to protect their own prerogative and authority in their regions. And it's also a bet in my opinion on which side they're thinking right now is going to win in the long run. Whatever you think of cops, it is good news for those opposed to Trump that departments put out those PR boltons this weekend as institutions. They look to their own interests in other ways. As Professor Lisa Corrigan noted over the weekend, the rallies in small towns were typically larger than the police force in those areas. Whatever some or most or all of the police would actually like to do, a lot of people in the streets, particularly those that they see as normies, will make not just the president, but many other people pay attention. But still, last weekend is just a start. We have to normalize dominant American culture being one that stands up for the vulnerable against these abuses.

[Erica Chenoweth]

I also think that it's easy to downplay the importance of protest and a single day of protest, but it's also really important not to underestimate what it signals when people are willing to take risks like that.

[Host/Reporter]

Getting more people out in public makes a movement more attractive.

[Erica Chenoweth]

What it does is it lowers the barriers to participation to others later on, and it sends a signal to people in one's own communities, say business owners and faith leaders and labor organizers and others, that there's a significant part of the community that is deeply concerned.

[Host/Reporter]

I realize the frustrations of those who have been organizing in concrete ways or who have remained unseen while subjected to violence from the government. It sucks to be left to deal with abuse and then have people show up and dance around in inflatable costumes as if they're at a party, thinking that's somehow the same kind of contribution that community activists have been making for years or decades. What I understand less is people who are out there discouraging others from acting at all. By all means, go to the big protests and recruit people for real action, whatever you see that as, organize local mutual aid efforts or specific demands on referendums or policing where you live. But if your specialty is just I'm going to criticize and do nothing myself, or I get to be the boss of everybody and here's what you're doing wrong, don't be surprised if those lines of thinking aren't very useful most of the time. More often than not, the fact that different people have different motivations and are good at different things can be an absolute strength. Sometimes I think people imagine just because they can see holes in somebody else's approach, it means that those people shouldn't do what they're doing. And it's really simple for you to just help fill in those holes where you see them instead.

[Citizen/Participant]

I think our problem is more than the person in power. Fascism is part the system and letting it get to this point because of one person. So I'm here to bring awareness to that and express my values as a citizen, as an American.

[Host/Reporter]

And sometimes an approach to pushing back against authoritarianism actually is deeply flawed, dangerous, or counterproductive. But I'm not seeing that in the protest so far. I'm seeing a lot more possibility. And if you want to convince people that some radical realignment is necessary, you're going to have to be able to persuade them, which means presenting them with something better and more effective and motivating them, not just shredding the first attempt they made. In terms of other institutional responses, the New York Times was predictably weird, directly stating at first that crowd size didn't really matter, but I would say it was the White House that seemed to have the strangest response.

[Skeptic/Critic]

I think it's a joke.

[Host/Reporter]

The administration immediately pivoted to AI depictions of Trump as a king in different settings. JD Vance posted one and Trump himself posted AI Slop, which I'm not going to show you here, and you've probably already seen anyway, but it shows him as King Trump in a jet dropping onto protesters. That slop should be embarrassing enough on its own, but it was made more so given the ticky, tacky dollar store trader vibe that undergirded the whole thing. So it's good to press him into this corner. It's clear we are rattling him as the president normalizes talk of making himself king, even as he pretends that's not what he wants.

[Skeptic/Critic]

By the way, I'm not a king. I'm not a king.

[Host/Reporter]

As he tears down the side of the White House, some number of people who thought this was all a joke are going to realize that that is the scope of power he's aiming for.

[Skeptic/Critic]

I'm not a king at all.

[Host/Reporter]

Again, there might not be a huge number of independents or weak Trump supporters who will shift as a result of these efforts, but we don't need to change that many minds. We need to change as many as we can to build in a window for new gerrymandering that's going to lead to voter suppression, but still, we're talking a small percentage of the population. We have to get involved. I want to say one other thing about the weekend. Especially in red communities, people drove through their streets and saw their neighbors demonstrating.

[Erica Chenoweth]

Even before the October 18th mobilization, where I think there was a pretty large number of events that happened in places that Trump won in 2024. We had already seen in this country more consecutive months in which protests were actually concentrated in counties that Trump won in 2024 than at any time during his first administration.

[Host/Reporter]

Maybe it was someone who seemed annoying or strange to them, the quintuple pierced or rainbow haired local activist of Mike Johnson's dreams.

[Erica Chenoweth]

For example, in Gillette, Wyoming, there were about 75 people reported to have participated in a hands off protest on April 5th. And then in June 14th for the no Kings event that happened in Gillette, about 175 people participated.

[Host/Reporter]

Yet what they actually saw was a peaceful demonstration.

[Erica Chenoweth]

So at that event there were counter protesters who were hiling Hitler and chanting that Trump is King. So these are places where protest is costly.

[Host/Reporter]

Even if they never encountered another clip or legitimate news story about the event, that seed is planted in their head. What if those other demonstrations really looked like the ones in my town? I'm thinking of Kendra Sullivan in Beckley, West Virginia, the state I grew up in. Sullivan staged a one woman no Kings protest. People in her community confronted her, called the police on her, and even physically threatened her. More than once police showed up and protected her right to protest. Just think of the other people in Beckley who might have been wondering if anybody else felt like them. If they want to reach out now, they know one place to go. The question, what's the next step? In my opinion is far more important than the question, what just happened? The answer is to do something concrete and encourage others to join you. One of my favorite contingents that I saw this weekend was a small group of women carrying signs that read the most dangerous immigrants arrived in 1492 and a flag that read, you are on native land. They have their role and their message meant both for their fellow demonstrators and for the world. They know what they're doing. I'm thinking also of the black woman at the Women's March in January 2017 carrying a sign reading white women voted for Trump. That's someone who's also found the role that they can play in all this. And maybe you think that the whole protest should be filled with nothing but provocative signs like that. Or maybe you don't like adversarial signs at all. Or maybe you don't like corporate protests with official sponsors and celebrity speakers. That's all great. Avoid the frivolity and only address serious matters seriously through mutual aid or concrete measurable services and goods. Build your own organization or plug into an existing one and work with like minded people. I don't say this to dismiss any of these approaches, the thing you're wishing everyone else was doing instead of what they are, might be the best contribution you yourself can make. Go out and do that. You could work against ICE recruitment where you live. You could work to bolster food banks that are already facing incredible crises around the country, crises that are only likely to deepen as winter comes on. If you're still out in public complaining that you don't know what to do at this point, ask yourself if you're trying not to find a way to help. In a post from Friday, Amanda Lipman listed 51 specific things that you can do to make a difference. Some of them may seem small or off topic, but they're all geared at helping you imagine the world you want to live in and then beginning to build that place. Different people will do different things, and the truth is that while history gives us a rundown of some of what's worked in the past, it's an imperfect guide to knowing exactly what will turn the tide in the present moment. The more things we try, the more people we get moving, the better. And that's it.

[Erica Chenoweth]

Thanks for listening to Next Comes what? Please share this with anyone who's looking for ways to help each other survive this mess. To support this podcast, Please [e-mail] and consider giving Next Comes what? A five star review where you get your podcasts.

[Host/Reporter]

Don't forget, if you're a paid subscriber who wants to ask a question about anything at all, we're doing a special episode for that. You can send your question to next comes what? Gmail.com and I will do my best to answer it. We're going to gather these questions across the next couple weeks and we'll do a bonus post and bonus episode of Next Comes what? Later in the month to address that, and it will eventually be available to everyone as well.

[Erica Chenoweth]

Up.