180 - Payne Lindsey on Real UFO Encounters, Evidence of Aliens, & Truth

Summary

Ninjas Are Butterflies Episode 180: Payne Lindsey on Real UFO Encounters, Evidence of Aliens, & Truth

Date: February 6, 2026
Hosts: Josh Hooper, Andy DeNoon (& crew)
Special Guest: Payne Lindsey (Host of High Strange)

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Episode Overview

In this lively, comedic yet surprisingly deep episode, hosts Josh, Andy, and their crew welcome acclaimed podcaster Payne Lindsey, known for his work in true crime (Up and Vanished) and the UFO-centric podcast High Strange. The group dives into the world of real UFO encounters, alien abduction evidence, the blurry line between truth and belief, the intersection of faith, reality, and unexplained phenomena—all peppered with wit, running jokes, and musical improvisation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Payne’s Journey: From True Crime to UFOs

• Background: Payne shares his Atlanta roots, his move to Boston (“trying to be on my Stephen King vibes” – 01:43), and love for creating compelling stories.
• Jump to UFOs: He discusses High Strange as an extension of his true crime approach—aiming for investigation over sensationalism.
  • "I wanted the no BS version... the investigative version. That feels like it's a true crime story." (18:49)
  • He approached UFOs as a massive, unsolved mystery, aiming to convert skeptics through thorough investigation, not “tinfoil hat” speculation.

2. High Strange Podcast: Method & Reception

• Reception: Surprised at how positively the true crime audience received his UFO series, especially after the Betty & Barney Hill episode terrified listeners and hosts alike (19:47–24:34).
• Technique: Praised for his narrative style—using silence, pacing, and personal ADD experience to structure immersive, suspenseful episodes (21:16–22:59).
  • "I just tried to make a show that I would want to listen to." (22:59)
• Production: Shared behind-the-scenes on sound design with his composer, including making electronic tracks out of voice memos and found sounds for atmospheric effect (96:23–101:26).

3. Favorite Cases & Real Encounters

• Focus on Travis Walton abduction: Payne met Walton in person, found his reluctance and trauma sincere. "This is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. And I was like, ok, I believe you." (28:15)
• Discussed verifying witness credibility from years in true crime (26:16–28:36).
• Emphasis on old cases as compelling due to lack of technological manipulation (31:01): "The older cases... there's less technology. It's not Photoshopped."

4. The Line Between Fact, Memory, and Delusion

• Skepticism and mental breaks: Explores how trauma, reality, and pop culture influence memory and belief. Discussion touches on parallels between abduction stories and satanic ritual abuse narratives (36:43–39:01).
  • Rancher interviews on cattle mutilations (37:10–41:19): Are aliens responsible, or cults, or something else?
  • Rational vs. irrational: "There's not much rational about it—it's the problem." (38:53)
• Blurring lines in storytelling: "As a creator... I could see myself starting to blur lines with fact and fiction about my own experience." (70:44)

5. Personal UFO Encounters

• Payne’s one UFO experience: Saw mysterious, unattainable orbs in Colorado as a teen; couldn't rationalize them as flashlights (54:11–56:48).
• Hosts share their own uncanny night-sky moments (72:26–74:55).

6. Notable Figures and Government Secrecy

• Interviewed Jacques Vallee (“the legend”), who now views UFOs as a reality-perception issue rather than just physical craft (52:43–54:07, 75:48–78:14).
  • "Something can be there and not be there at the same time." (80:10)
• Frustration with some "insiders"/UFO notables avoiding his interviews (43:34) and story about nearly meeting whistleblower David Grusch "before he came out with anything" (46:20).
• Government cover-up? Payne suspects most of the government has no real UFO knowledge—knowledge is siloed at best, not even all presidents know (47:45–49:23).

7. The Nature of Proof, Belief, and Reality

• The panel discusses whether believing people's stories is as important as verifying; importance of "what does this mean" over "do you believe them?" (71:15).
  • "It's not really about belief... these people and these stories—they fit into a bigger puzzle of what we clearly don't know." (71:16)
• The differences in proof for each person, and the slow evolution of public understanding (113:52–115:33).

8. UFOs, Religion, and Spirituality

• Intense dive into how UFO phenomena mesh with spiritual experiences, the Bible, and global rituals:
  • Many alleged abductees become more religious; “multiple truths” can exist (87:27–90:06).
  • Discussion on music and consciousness, referencing how group music/spirituality moments may affect reality (90:06–91:40; 91:56–92:09).
  • "We already believe in things that we can't prove... in a weird way, it's almost not that much different." (82:58)
• The Vatican’s apparent openness to UFO possibilities, and the potential disruption to faith systems if "full disclosure" happened (83:26–86:44).

9. Art, Music, & Creative Process

• Exclusive breakdown of how High Strange music is produced from voice memos and atmospheric samples (96:23–101:26).
• Plans to drop the High Strange soundtrack.

10. Season 2 & 3 Announcements

• High Strange Season 2 drops on 2/6/26. Season 3 already slated for June 6, 2026 (17:27).
• Season 2 tone: Less "what's out there," more weary/sarcastic: "We already know everything—don't we?" (111:16)
• Episodes will binge-drop via Tenderfoot+ with OST coming.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Alien Sincerity:
  • "He sat in his truck for over 10 minutes, no phone, just staring... and the second he sat down, he's like, 'this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me.' And I was like, ok, I believe you." – Payne on Travis Walton (28:15)
• On Belief vs. Reality:
  • "Proof is different to every person." – Payne (114:12)
• On the Limits of Understanding:
  • "It's statistically almost impossible for there not to be [aliens]... but our perception of reality is the limiting factor." – Summarized theme via Payne & Vallee (78:14–80:11)
• On Weird Interview Coincidence:
  • (Whitley Strieber interview) "There was this fly we could not catch... 15 minutes in, it lands on his knee. And it stays there for 45 minutes. He says his implant turned on around the same time. I'm like, the insects..." (63:53–64:55)
• On Creative Process:
  • "I'd send my composer a voice memo, and we'd try to make a music cue out of it. It just becomes like a weird instrument. It feels human, but almost subconsciously to you." (99:25–99:57)
• On Cultural/Spiritual Parallels:
  • "I don't think anyone's making up their spiritual experiences with Jesus, God, anybody. There's a crossover with some sort of profound spiritual experience you may have had, or a thing in the sky." (92:30–93:39)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Topic | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:52 | Intro, episode number, Payne’s background | | 04:04 | Joking about Payne being an alien | | 11:32 | Song improvisation for Payne ("The Aliens, They Come") | | 17:00 | High Strange Season 2 & 3 announcement | | 18:20 | High Strange’s unique approach to UFO stories | | 24:55 | Travis Walton abduction case discussion | | 32:11 | Influential true crime/supernatural cases as a kid | | 36:43 | Parallels between alien abductions and satanic ritual abuse | | 37:10 | Cattle mutilation mystery (alien vs. cults) | | 43:34 | Trouble getting top UFO ‘insiders’ to grant interviews | | 46:20 | Elevator story with David Grusch (before whistleblowing) | | 47:45 | How much does government really know? | | 52:43 | Interviewing Jacques Vallee; reality as perception | | 54:11 | Payne’s personal UFO encounter | | 57:02 | On wanting to be abducted…but never being believed | | 58:47 | Whitley Strieber interview, alleged implant and synchronistic fly incident | | 71:15 | Is it about belief, or what these stories can mean? | | 75:48 | Insights from Vallee & perception/manipulation of reality | | 81:37 | UFOs & Christianity, spiritual parallels | | 90:06 | Music, consciousness, and group experiences | | 96:23 | High Strange music creation demo | | 101:53 | High Strange Season 2 release mechanics & OST release | | 111:16 | New, world-weary Season 2 tone and trailer | | 113:52 | Proof and understanding are reframed for each listener |

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Flow, Language, and Tone

The episode is high-energy, irreverent, but deeply curious:

• Jokes and bits (songs, puns about “ice” and “not having a dad,” poking fun at sponsors) are interspersed with thoughtful, sometimes philosophical reflections.
• Payne's storytelling is earnest and detail-oriented, often reflecting his investigative nature while remaining humble about subjective truth.
• Hosts oscillate between enthusiastic fans, clever comedians, and open-minded skeptics, making the conversation feel welcoming and accessible.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a wild, multi-layered ride blending comedy, genuine inquiry, and compelling storytelling. Even if you’re not a UFO enthusiast, the discussion about truth, reality, personal experience, and cosmic mystery is captivating. Payne Lindsey’s insights into storytelling, investigation, and belief systems offer not only entertainment, but also a thoughtful exploration of how we process and share the unexplained. If you enjoy being unsettled and entertained in equal measure, this one’s not to be missed.

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Listen to High Strange Season 2 now, and follow Payne Lindsey for more behind-the-scenes content.

Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, we finally have Payne Lindsay in the house, a legend in the UFO world, and he's got some spooky stories that are gonna make you pee your pants.

[B]

And guess what? Andy still doesn't have a dad. And we talk about that.

[A]

Yay.

[C]

This podcast is brought to you by his dad. Wait, no. What'd you say?

[B]

It kind of is, though. My dad owns Sunday. Cool. It's like the same thing. Oh, but his dad. It's not.

[C]

Okay, that was my bad.

[B]

This podcast is brought to you. Empowered by Sunday. Cool.

[C]

This podcast is brought to you. Empowered by Sunday.

[B]

Co. Watch this or listen?

[C]

Watch this or listen or else.

[B]

A threat.

[C]

Yeah, a threat. No, I didn't finish the sentence.

[A]

Oh, got it.

[C]

Or else I might cry.

[D]

We good?

[A]

We're rolling.

[B]

We're rolling.

[A]

Look at that, Andrew. You're on top of it. Dang, dang, dang, dang, dang, dang, dang, dang. Is this episode 180?

[B]

This is 180.

[C]

Ooh, that's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It feels like that's such a low.

[C]

Number, but that's like 103 years of anything. It's kind of a lot.

[B]

180 Fridays in a row.

[A]

That is kind of wild.

[B]

That is crazy.

[A]

Never a week off.

[C]

It's Friday. I forgot. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The last two weeks have felt like it was always Friday or something. Never quite the weekend. Still a work day.

[B]

Where are you from, Payne?

[C]

I'm from the suburbs of Atlanta.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So grew up.

[A]

Born and raised.

[C]

Born and raised.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

Moved to the city when I was early 20s, and then just recently moved to Boston two years ago.

[A]

Oh, word.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So do you like that?

[B]

I said, may I do?

[C]

So that was the first idea. Like, that was kind of the inspiration was to, you know, I want to be on my Stephen King vibes, and you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, I love that.

[C]

I love Portland, Maine, and I'm like, a hour and a half drive.

[B]

Okay. So sick.

[C]

Close enough.

[B]

Boston boy.

[C]

Boston boy.

[B]

Get you, Duncan.

[C]

Yeah, I'm definitely not a true Boston boy because you would be able to tell by my accent, but there isn't one. But they say, like, everything's wicked.

[B]

Oh, wicked. Smart.

[A]

Bach My car by Harvard Yard.

[B]

You're the guy with the wicked aliens, right?

[A]

Guy.

[B]

Yeah, that guy.

[C]

Podcast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Do you like. Do you like Maine? I mean, Massachusetts? Boston?

[C]

I do. I mean, to me, it's like, New York is just too much for me.

[A]

I mean, a lot of time there.

[C]

I mean, just doing business stuff. You tend to End up going to LA or New York, obviously. They have amazing pizza. Probably the best food in the world, but it's just so chaotic.

[B]

Yeah. It's also, like, claustrophobic there. It's just like, the buildings and I've never been.

[A]

I want to, though.

[C]

I mean, you have to go. I mean, the first time I went, it's. It's impressive.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You're like, wow, these. All these buildings. Why did we do this? And then you just. Can just get lost in the city for hours and have a blast. But being there and, you know, trying to catch an Uber to a meeting, like an hour away, but it's only one or two miles, it's just crazy. Not. Not fun. I think Boston's a small version of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think I'm more amazed that there's just another city underneath.

[C]

What do you mean?

[A]

They just built. That's why they call it New York City. They literally built New York over the older city.

[C]

Are the people still there?

[A]

I mean, I imagine so.

[C]

There's got to be at least some just being squished.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, imagine that's what the rats are.

[D]

They lose a couple. Right. Every year.

[C]

The rats are the size of some people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it all adds up.

[C]

It's making sense.

[A]

Yeah. We're the circle of life. We'll be rat one day.

[C]

Right? A boy can dream.

[B]

Welcome. Payne. Lindsay Pain. Lindsay from High Strange.

[A]

It's been a long time coming. We've been talking about you forever, dude.

[C]

You have.

[A]

I know.

[C]

Good things. Bad things. Both.

[B]

All good things.

[A]

Yeah, we, we did call you an alien at one point, but.

[C]

No, I saw.

[A]

Because you had. Yeah, I know. I, I, we do apologize.

[C]

No, it's. One of. My best friend's wife has always been like, you're an alien. Well, before High Strange, but to the point where I think she actually thinks that I am. She's not convinced otherwise, so I can either confirm or deny that.

[A]

Yeah, well, your choice of professionalism made it kind of probably hard to deny that those claims.

[C]

Or is that just the perfect cover?

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Yeah, that's like. Yeah, that's. I mean, it's.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

Have you seen the movie the Knowing?

[C]

The Knowing? I don't know.

[B]

It's with Nick knowing.

[C]

Oh, wait, what is the plot?

[B]

It's like the end of the world.

[A]

That's the one where he gets, like, the dates on papers and it's like catastrophic events and stuff.

[C]

Okay. I think I did see it kind of semi recently. But I've been on this weird thing, you know how you can watch YouTube and then all of a sudden you get in that weird rabbit hole of, like, how did I get here? On these. Sure, you can do the same thing on Amazon prime if you just let it play the next movie and movie. And, like, I'll just be working on my laptop. It'll be on mute. And I'll just be deep in a Nick Cage movie, and I'll just turn it up for, like, five minutes. Like, what is this?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, he's made a thousand movies, so. So I think I've seen probably five minutes.

[B]

Okay, well, there's a. There's a. Like, an alien angel guy in it.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And he's always reminded me of you. That's him.

[C]

That. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So there's. There's another movie.

[B]

That's your actual photo in my phone for your number.

[C]

What's the other movie that. So my friend, like, his wife thinks I'm an alien, but he always calls me. What's that, like, super pale alien man. It's a movie about him.

[A]

Legion, is it not? It's not Legion. It's. Is the guy that plays. Oh, golly, what was that? Bentley. Pat Bentley or something. Like the guy that plays Age of Ultron.

[C]

He's the voice of Pasty or something. Eat me. He's pasty white. But I gotta find it. But it looks like that person. It's just like a translucent.

[A]

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. It's like chalk or pace or something. Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

[C]

Right. What is that it?

[A]

Dang it. And it's like a high school movie, like, right? Is the kids of high school. Oh, man, I can't remember the name of the movie.

[C]

Is his name, I think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Diary of a Wimpy Kid.

[A]

That's what it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Is it?

[A]

We'll find it. Find it.

[C]

I was like, that's like. That's my memoir.

[B]

Hey, Payne, do you want a song?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

All right, cool. We'll just come up with something.

[A]

Do you. I thought. Did you write something?

[B]

I didn't do you. What kind of genre do you want?

[C]

What are you prepared to do?

[B]

Literally anything you ask for.

[C]

I'm kind of feeling. I mean, something. Something funky.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

So honestly, whatever you feel like, you'll have the most fun making in this moment.

[D]

Got some ideas.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. Check, check, check, check. Yeah.

[B]

Reverb on real quick.

[A]

Check, check. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There we go.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Here we go. All Right.

[D]

This.

[C]

Is the story.

[A]

About the creatures from beyond.

[B]

The aliens, they come.

[A]

They fly into vade to control our land. Honest day of pray probing our insides, flying through our skies, taking all our bodies, reading all our minds. Everything they do makes me feel insane.

[C]

Insane, insane.

[A]

But how could I stop them? What could I do to beat these awful creatures? I have no clue. They're afraid of nothing. Not life nor death. They ain't afraid of fire, not heights or death. The recipe's something that fills them with fear. I can feel it in my bones. Our time is near. They must be stopped. They must all be slain.

[C]

Slain. Who.

[A]

Must be slain. Must be slave.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

They don't fear our tanks. They don't fear our skis. But here is a single man haunting all the dreams. He lurks in the shadows, makes them running high. There's no way to beat him. You can surely try. His name. They can't speak, they can't read. Is brave. They cannot deny the fear in their eyes. It's pain in Lindsay.

[C]

Oh, pain.

[A]

Rain, Lindsey.

[C]

It's pain run by strength. That's me. That was. That was impressive. I was not expecting that at all.

[A]

I can't believe we just came up with that.

[C]

That was.

[B]

I can't believe that either.

[C]

I don't even know what to say about that. Can I. Can I license that?

[A]

No, that's. Yeah, that's.

[C]

We know you had royalty free now.

[A]

Yeah. For you, for sure.

[C]

We just. Was that, like, cameo that I ordered? Basically.

[A]

Basically, yeah.

[B]

Just make that.

[C]

There's a bill, right? Bill me? Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man. My wife hates that. We do that for people that we tease me.

[D]

Every single guest we have on, she's like, are you still going to do the best?

[C]

You still going to do the whole thing where you make a song about them and they feel weird about it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

For sure.

[D]

For sure.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

No matter how respected they are, no matter where they are. I mean, we'll have a president on our couch one day.

[B]

If President Trump comes here, we'll sing about his beautiful little hands.

[A]

Yes, we will. Tiny, tiny hands he will be.

[C]

I mean, I feel like it's a. It's a. It's a. It's a sign of respect, really.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

I mean, I don't have. I don't have that many songs written about me.

[D]

You got one more, come to think of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, only got one.

[A]

That's true. That's the nice thing, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why don't we get a song written for us?

[D]

The first songs we did was a Russian song.

[B]

What about you not having a dad?

[A]

Yeah, sorry.

[C]

I don't know why that was funny.

[B]

It's pretty funny.

[C]

It sounds funny.

[B]

But we're going to have a great day.

[A]

I'm so excited. We have pain here. We've been waiting for this forever. He's got a lot of stories. He's got a lot of share. He's got a lot of plug. A lot of exciting things are happening.

[B]

There's something that needs to go down first.

[A]

Absolutely. We're going to get to that. But, you know, I mean.

[B]

This is our least favorite part of the episode.

[C]

This. Right now.

[B]

What's happening right now? To find out.

[D]

All right.

[B]

There's millions, I would say maybe close to billions of people that watch us and depend primarily on this segment of the podcast.

[A]

Close over. Over billions.

[B]

And we have to answer a question.

[C]

Really?

[B]

You have to answer the question. People are depending on you to answer this question. These questions are hard.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

They might be uncomfortable, but we just work through it and we move on.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[C]

We can do this.

[A]

We owe it to the billions.

[B]

Yeah. It's really just a yes or no. You don't need to explain yourself. Either way, it's yes or no for answering the question. Today's question sent in by your viewer. Pain.

[D]

Do you support ice?

[C]

I like the crushed ice that you.

[B]

I know you want to explain it, but it's just like it's. Do you support. With everything that's happening right now, all in the world. Do you?

[C]

Pain. He said I can't curse, though.

[B]

You cannot. I'm sorry.

[A]

Absolutely can.

[C]

No. Dang, dude.

[B]

I thought we were gonna have a good day.

[A]

I was really excited about this.

[C]

But I do support the ballpark. Ice.

[B]

No, that's great.

[C]

You get from. You can even get it from port ice.

[B]

What about the Inuits? What about their houses that are made of ice? And you don't support the.

[A]

Do you.

[C]

Don't you.

[B]

Don't you think the Inuits shouldn't have homes? What about all the. What about the ice that is keeping the oceans from overflooding?

[A]

Absolutely. The polar bears. Pain. The polar bears.

[C]

Polar bears. I don't care.

[A]

Get rid of the ice.

[C]

I mean, we can't win, right? So, I mean, dang, if I had to pick.

[A]

Doubling down.

[C]

Negative Nancy, you know, I've never seen a polar bear.

[B]

I feel like giving him the cold shoulder.

[C]

I don't even know if they're real.

[B]

I think we should give him the cold shoulder.

[A]

Andy, Wow. I think you're not.

[C]

You're right. You're icing me out.

[B]

This is.

[D]

I'm.

[C]

Yeah, that. This is the icing on the cake.

[B]

Well, guys, I guess.

[A]

And he just wants to make puns.

[C]

I just. I can't stop now.

[B]

This is really. Explain. There's millions of animals that are dying because he's breaking.

[C]

I know. This is how you get into it.

[A]

You know, I thought it was nice to meet you. It's not.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Thank you. Well, that wasn't very ice.

[B]

I guess you guys heard here first. Pain doesn't support ice. Maybe we should deport him.

[C]

Did I say ninja? I meant butterfly.

[A]

The butterfly is no doubt one of.

[D]

God's most.

[A]

Empty mind. You learn martial arts?

[B]

I'm just gonna say it. Most people don't know where their money is going.

[A]

Feels directed.

[B]

It is. Including at you.

[A]

Okay, that's aggressive.

[B]

You think you're fine, you think you're on top of it. Then you actually look and you forgot you're paying for stuff that already existed.

[A]

Yeah, stuff like that can really hurt.

[B]

That's why Rocket Money exists. To stop the quiet bleeding.

[A]

That's right. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

[B]

And unlike our lovely government, it always shows you the truth.

[A]

Yep. It pulls everything into one place. So you're not guessing. Subscriptions, spendings, accounts, all of it.

[B]

And it doesn't sugarcoat it?

[A]

Nope. Transactions are automatically categorized. You can start setting budgets and see patterns really, really quick.

[B]

Like how often you say, that's not.

[A]

That much, then you see it monthly. You say, that is that much.

[B]

Exactly. It also keeps you aware without having to babysit it.

[A]

They sure do. Rocket Money lets you set saving goals and get regular reports and and real time alerts folks for big transactions or upcoming bills.

[B]

Which is important because no one wants another thing to manage.

[A]

You're absolutely right. It's less about being perfect and more about being informed.

[B]

If you're serious about your money this.

[A]

Year, or at least serious about not.

[B]

Being surprised by it, Rocket Money is a smart move. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster.

[A]

Join RocketMoney.comNinjas that's RocketMoney.comNinjas RocketMoney.comNinjas.

[C]

Back to my home planet.

[B]

Thanks. We have to usually gaslight my wife, but she's not here.

[D]

Dude, my camera's racist. It keeps on locking on other Asians in the background.

[C]

Did you program it to find just this one Asian? Wait, that's Hilarious.

[A]

Wait I minute.

[C]

Is that Bruce Lee back there or what is this?

[A]

It's one of the guys.

[C]

Right.

[A]

There's a playlist on YouTube you can look up for anyone who's wondering. They're always like, what movies are you guys watching in the background? There's a playlist on YouTube. If you look up old kung fu videos, there's like 172 movie playlist. Yeah, we just put them on in the background. Some of them are inappropriate.

[C]

I was going to say some of.

[A]

The times we've had, we've had it.

[C]

Roll.

[A]

And we're like, wait a minute, hold on.

[C]

I can't believe they're saying that. Yeah.

[D]

If you are a ninjas fan, go through and maybe report a few of those so we don't have to blur the background on occasion.

[B]

True.

[D]

I mean, there's been some straight up stuff that shouldn't exist on YouTube, I bet.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, today, February 6th, the day this is coming out, you have season two of your show, High Strange, and I am so excited.

[A]

We've been waiting for this for years, right? It came out.

[C]

I've been waiting for this three years. First one was three. 3:23, actually. No, I'm sorry. 3:23. 23.

[D]

Got it.

[C]

I like that as a date. Felt matrixy. And we were going to put it out last year and then the year before, things just got pushed and kicked around, but the whole time we never stopped really making it. So I'll just announce this first here, for what it's worth. We have a High Strange season two on two. Six. Two six. But we're also coming back in June with a season three.

[B]

Heck, no way.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So we're going to go, hey, boom, here's two and here's three. Two.

[A]

Is there a fun date for the six?

[C]

I think it might be six. 6:26.

[A]

Cool. Cool. One number.

[C]

There's a two in there.

[B]

That's so awesome.

[A]

That's so fun. Now, what was your response from the first season? Like, did it take a while to get some traction going with it, or is it. Was it immediate?

[C]

Honestly, I was surprised. I mean, I come from, at least in the podcast world, true crime.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so I was a little bit worried about how people might perceive this. Like, oh, here we go. Pain's putting the tinfoil hat on. He's off to fairyland with these conspiracy theories. So I really didn't want to come across that way. I wanted the no BS version.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The investigative version. That feels like it's a true crime. Story.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I really tried to present it in that way where, I mean, people who were into UFOs and aliens, I knew that they would find this show. Sure. Right. But I wanted to convince the people who are like, yeah, I don't really know. So I even start the episode kind of like. I mean, it's like, mathematically impossible that we're alone in the universe. It's kind of more of a question of whether or not they have visited here or are. And either way, there's a really big unsolved mystery here. It could be explained by science. Sure. But we still don't know. And so, to me, it's one of the biggest mysteries there is. And so that approach was kind of like the angle entry point, hoping that the biggest skeptic would be like, okay, well, maybe. Maybe.

[B]

Well, you do a very good job in the first season of, like, kind of presenting that, like, devil's advocate of, like, well, let's, you know, play it out. But, like, I mean, I think the one that sealed the deal for, like, our whole crew. We were going up to Murfreesboro, Tennessee, three years ago, and we were listening to the Betty and Barney Hill one. Holy cow. That was the scariest.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And we were listening in daylight in a car on the way to dinner. And I truly. I'm a huge true crime guy. Like, I was before that, before conspiracy theories. I just love, like, JonBenet Ramsey, that whole. The JFK stuff that the way you played it and present it to an audience doesn't feel intergalactical. Doesn't feel conspiracy feel. It doesn't. It's just like, this is a true story of a couple who already had it rough in life, but chose to speak out about their, you know, experience because it was real and it happened and it's. And just. I mean, it's terrifying.

[C]

There's so scary. There's very few times where, like, when I'm making a show and, you know, makeup and vanity set, he makes all the music. He's the goat. And he'll make, like, a really, like, eerie music cue, and I'll be putting it together with tape. And I'm. Every now and then, I'm like, this is, like, haunting.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that was one of the few times where I was just editing it and I was freaking myself out with.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Just how, like, uncomfortable it felt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your use of silence.

[D]

I was gonna say pauses.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Are just. I'm like, it's any other. Yeah. It's unlike anything. And you really extend it to the point where it's. It makes you sit in it. It gives people time to ponder and really immerse themselves in that episode. And I just applaud you because it. It's weird hearing your voice in my ears right now and having this.

[C]

That probably is because it's.

[A]

Yeah, we've listened to it so much, and it's just phenomenal.

[D]

It's so genius. There's enough time to ask yourself a question, but then before my ADD can go elsewhere, it's like. And now I'm on to potentially answering the question or, like, leading you down the story.

[C]

So I also have add, like, big time. I don't know if y' all could tell, but so I kind of. I'm like, my first podcast I ever made up and Vanished Season 1, Episode 1. At that time, this is 2016, I was desperately looking for, like, a blueprint for how the non professional journalist person could go investigate a true crime story.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And there wasn't really a lot of those kinds of shows. I mean, there were other true crime shows, but they were all, like, professionals.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Or it was like, Sarah Koenig and serial, like, you know, real journalists. And so I was like, okay, I'm not gonna try to make cereal because that's. That isn't who I am. I don't want to pretend to be someone. And so I just. Yeah, I even opened up episode one saying, like, I don't know what I'm doing. That's, like, become a trope now. Like, I'm just. God, I have no experience. I'm just. I'm not an investigator. But, like, that being said, I just tried to make a show this. I still do this. Try to make a show that I would want to listen to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Like, what would keep my attention? And, like, if I have a thought, like, I might be like, yeah, that somebody might think that. Right. So maybe I'll answer that sort of in a second or think out loud in my narration. Sort of like. Okay, yeah, exactly. Without having to, like, overtly point it out or highlight it. It's a weird balance, but, like, I'm. I'm trying to imagine what the listener's experiencing and hoping it's not boring or like, God, shut up, dude. One of the two. So.

[B]

No, it's so enticing. It's really cool. You just, like, create your own style too. Like, that's. I would say it's super hard to do, especially with everyone having a podcast now. But.

[A]

Yeah, it just feels so individual, like, to what you do like. And that's the cool thing is like, this is my own flavor, my own twist. And like, you putting 100 into it, like, designing it, completely packaging it. It's a. It's a brand new thing, it feels like. And so it's such a. Such a unique show.

[B]

I was so fun. I was re. Listening to your show this week. Just like, catching. Because it's been three years since I've listened to it, basically. And I was in the gym and I was listening to the Betty and Barney Hill part, and I just wonder what people thought I was listening to because I was, like, lifting something. And then the. The audio recording of his hypnotherapy where he's like, their eyes, their eyes. And I did. I froze.

[D]

I'm just going, this.

[B]

I was so afraid. Excuse me.

[A]

There's a guy in a fetal position at the squat rack right now.

[B]

Gosh, it's so intense.

[C]

And I think he's saying, their eyes.

[D]

This dude's been in the sauna for three hours.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Go get him.

[C]

It's not the best workout music, but respect.

[B]

Out of. Out of all those. The first episodes for season one, what was like, your favorite episode to do?

[C]

So I think my favorite has to be Travis Walton.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Just because, like, episode one, I had to spend. And I guess I didn't have to, but I chose to spend a lot of time, like, making you want to stay along with this journey. Like, hey, this is worth talking about. Don't runaway scared. Like, we don't have to put on the tinfoil hat here. Let's just. We can talk about this normally. And there's some real stuff going on. See, it's worth talking about. Then I'm going to inch you into a very weird story where the premise alone is, like, a true crime story. Someone went missing for five days. People. The police interrogated these people because they thought they may have murdered them. And then he comes back with a story about being abducted on a ufo.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's never really been debunked. That's pretty interesting. I mean, to me, it's interesting. Even if it's a hoax. Yeah, it would. It would honestly be more interesting because it seems, like, impossible to have pulled that off. Really?

[B]

Yeah. That was in the 70s, right?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yep. I want to say 75.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I think.

[B]

And so you met with him in person, right?

[C]

I did.

[B]

How was he? I mean, like, do you have, like, pretty good discernment whether or not someone's like, kind of like, I like in you.

[C]

I I like to think so. I mean, I feel like a lot of people say that they do. I. I based this off of. I've talked to a lot of people in true crime Stories. I've talked to real murderers who have actually killed people, gone to jail for it, suspected murderers, people who are lying in their friend group, people who are playing victim and they're not, and then people who are telling the truth, but they're just really nervous and confusing about it. And so I've had to do these sort of micro assessments in Just People for a while. I'm not by any means an expert, but I like to think that I have a pretty decent, like, gut instinct on my BS radar.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And Travis Walton. I mean, the only reason that we even got him. I'll shout out my friend Tim Smith. He happened to. To know him somehow and gave me his number. Slow responses. Eventually, we met out in Snowflake, Arizona. He was over an hour and a half late. And so I did play a part of that, because for a minute there, we're like, oh, my God, he's just gonna flake. This guy's just full of it. But then he pulls up, and I say this in the podcast, and it's true. He sat in his truck for over 10 minutes, no phone, just staring, like, straight ahead. And I was like, what is he doing? Is he, like, prepping his story? Is he, like, going back into this. This, like, trauma? Like, what's going on? And the second he sat down, he was like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. And I was like, okay, I believe you.

[A]

So probably just building up the nerve to go into it again.

[C]

Maybe you could tell that he didn't want. He wasn't jazzed about revisiting this.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And for me, if this was, like, your big lie and becomes, like, your identity in your story, you would be chomping at the bit to tell it, at least to a degree.

[D]

Sure.

[C]

But he didn't seem, like, challenged by anything. He just was like, God, I gotta go there again. You know what I mean? And that was very sincere to me. And so I do believe that at least Travis Walton believes that's exactly what happened to him. And I think something unexplainable did happen.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, the fact that him. And was it five of his buddies or four of his buddies all saw this UFO or light thing. He's the one that got out. Big pulse. He fell down, they drove off, and then they came back. He's gone. Shows up five days later was that five days later?

[A]

That's the logging workers, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, okay, either way, he was actually missing for five days. Maybe he was hiding out in some friend's house. Right. Well, it wasn't his mom's place because she was actually concerned. It wasn't his brother's place. He was, like, crying and freaking out. It wasn't any of the other friends. Was he just bumbling around the woods? Like, either way, that's weird. Yeah, either way, like, that doesn't happen a lot either, I don't think.

[B]

Yeah. But even, like, the commonality between his. Because he wasn't really into aliens and UFOs and all that stuff.

[C]

Well, he kind of was. Was he? A little bit. This is also of the era of, like.

[B]

That's true.

[C]

You know, I don't know if Spielberg had made Encounters yet, but it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Coming up, you know. Yeah, there was some pop culture, like ufo, alien stuff going on, but.

[A]

But that's like, when it was breaking out, so. Yeah, we're used to that kind of stuff now. Yeah.

[C]

Like, that's like the old school stuff for us.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There's been layers and layers of that sense, but.

[A]

Yeah, and that's the tough thing. When you go back then, when you didn't have the communication systems like we have now. When you find stories like that that match up with people who was like, you've never heard this person's story. You didn't. It's not like he was listening to a podcast and, you know, it was somehow placed in his mind of, this is. You know, this is what I saw. It's like, no, this is real stuff. And that's the cool thing about how you break down true crime. It's like, why do we have that line of true crime and supernatural stuff? And it's like, yeah, this is a true story. This person went missing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, why. Why is there a difference between whether there's UFOs involved or abductions? It's like, this is a real person who obviously was messed up for life after this.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And there's something to be seen there. Whether it was just a psychological break or truly something happened to him. Scary, man.

[C]

Those are the cases that I am most attracted to because I feel like they hold the most weight. Especially just older cases in general. I mean, now it's like, AI, whatever. It's like everything's AI'd probably. I don't know. Am I actually here right now? You know, I don't think I've actually touched You.

[A]

It might be a hologram or something.

[C]

Yeah. But I mean, the older cases, there's, you know, less technology and there's like Kodak photographs where Kodak's like, yeah, this is a real film print. And there's an anomaly here that isn't like a. Something that came out of the negative. Yeah. It's not Photoshop. It predates all this stuff.

[A]

Like the spaceman.

[C]

Yeah. Like those kind of things are just compelling to me because they can be looked at through a different lens now. And there's. Nowadays that kind of story can't really exist. I mean, someone can get shot and killed in front of people and it's still like gonna be a conspiracy.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Right. Forever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So is there a story that, like, as you were growing up that you really like as far as true crime or supernatural, that really just that you kind of got obsessed with, that you couldn't really shake?

[C]

I mean, I remember like JonBenet Ramsey just because going to the grocery store with my mom every. At the checkout, every tabloid or every magazine ever was, you know, JonBenet Ramsey's face. And so I'd ask my mom about this. So I remember that one. It's crazy that all these years later, that's still unsolved.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, I have thoughts about that. But who do you think, who do.

[A]

You think did it? I mean, obviously the parents were involved. Right. They had to have been.

[C]

Who else did it?

[A]

I mean, there's.

[C]

It's possible, I think, you know, multiple truths can exist.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

In. In general. Right. I don't think that there is some big family cover up of any sort of. I've talked to the dad.

[A]

You have?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Several times. Talked to the oldest son, John Andrew, and I don't they genuinely still want to know what happened to JonBenet.

[A]

Jeez.

[C]

So that is real. Like, I believe that. Now, just hypothetically, if she, you know, was killed in a way that wasn't an intruder and it happened inside the house and someone close to you was actually responsible, I think that would be the last thing anyone would want to believe.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And without like there being definitive proof of that, then you would probably not, you know, really keep a totally open mind about that, at least objectively. That would be fair. I probably wouldn't either. But we're all. We're the suspects.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, like, and people will be like, oh, this is gonna. No, no. The handwriting, the note. I mean, it being written, the whole thing was so sloppy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The fact that they got away with it doesn't add up to the sloppiness either.

[A]

True.

[C]

But I mean, weird things happen, so I don't know.

[A]

It asks. It asks more questions than it answers. For sure.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Raises them.

[B]

Dang.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Murder, murder, murder.

[C]

I did intrigue him. Like, I was on a panel once, and it was tough because I was in an audience that was definitely probably pro. Like, not pro him, but pro. You know, let's find a job in a. I can't take any stance of, like, your family did it. Like, that wasn't the angle here, but. But I had a couple questions that I thought could help clear things up. Right. So super short. They get home that night, and I believe the wife puts JonBenet to bed. And so I asked him, like, a simple question, and this is one I think that you should remember. I said, do you remember your wife coming back to the bed to go to sleep before you went. Before you fell asleep that night?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It was Christmas Eve as well, wasn't it? And, like, so, like, it's kind of the significance of just. Yeah, there's a lot of.

[C]

And he didn't answer it very well or very concretely. I surmised that he didn't remember that. Meaning that we don't know if she ever even did go back to sleep. You know, if something bad happened, even an accident, you know, it wasn't but, like, five or six hours later in the morning where they found that note and it was her who found it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Just saying. Yeah.

[D]

That's such an interesting perspective, the dissonance you have to overcome without. And, like, you combine that with, like, a psychological break. And, like, that applies to, like, all of these cases too. Like, I am of. Of this group. I'm, like, probably more skeptical in a lot of these stories, but that's. That's where I get hung up. It's like, so aliens are a trending topic at the time. And then let's say something tragic happens. Like, is it not possible that, like, just the brain concoct something wild?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

To get around these stories.

[B]

Well, you there. We have buddies, blurry creatures. I don't know if you ever heard of them. They're a podcast. We love them.

[D]

Cool dudes.

[B]

But they have a lot of interviews with people that are. Go through, like, satanic ritual abuse. And the parallels between satanic ritual abuse and abduction stories are, like, dead on.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Like, very paralleled. Same kind of vibe.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Weird stuff. Have you encountered, like, in interviewing anyone, like, gone into, like, that stuff?

[C]

The only time I've really gone There, which is actually kind of this season. We were out in Oregon and on these like just middle of nowhere and we were talking to ranchers about these cattle mutilations which are, they're weird.

[B]

They are weird.

[C]

And the thing is about it, it already sounds like that's not true. It's like no, like one, these bulls are super expensive, like 25, $50,000. It's in no one's interest to murder their own bull. And I'm talking about stuff like they cut the tongue off, they cut off the private parts. Blood is drained. Surgical precision with surgeons hands and going into the insides and putting it back together. And this is from people who grew up on the ranch, generational farmers. And so the question is like, you know, they were like, thank you for, you know, just even discussing this topic because we don't know who's doing this. And we also just. We don't know why this is happening. He's like, if we knew why, I think we could figure it out. He didn't rule out the possibility that it could be aliens, but he said that that's not actually where he goes first. He actually thought that it was some sort of cult thing.

[A]

Yeah. Weird.

[C]

Because either way it's happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Someone or something is doing this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And our minds. Yeah. Usually go to something rational and you know, like a lot of fear based.

[C]

Stuff, whereas there's not much rational about it is the problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like in the 70s, 80s, their idea.

[C]

Of cults and all this stuff was satanic panic stuff.

[A]

Yeah. Like it was just like it was such an easy. That's it. That's what it is.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Paint it on there and then move on with your day.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's such an easier.

[B]

The clip that you sent us about the cattle rancher guy, how he says that none of the animals go up and eat it. Like the dead carcass and how it basically looks like it just melts. Like decomposes and melts. That was spooky.

[D]

That's.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And he. And there's, there's actually, I think, a rational way to explain why the animals aren't going. Like the scavengers aren't going up to the animal. And it's, you know, not necessarily because of some like radiation or some alien thing. It could just be because. Because the animals are drained of their blood. The scavenger animals don't smell like a dead animal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So really weird.

[C]

But now we're having to like accept that these things all happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's just, you Know a logical reason why.

[D]

I don't. That's hard for. That's hard for me to accept. That pig I shot, that thing was laying on the ground. When I picked up the skull, it was pick dry, but I had to run vultures off of basically just bone.

[C]

Right.

[D]

I had to. And so, like, for something to not be like. Even if it was just a. Like just a little bit of fur, like a skin, like when we clean deer, you just toss everything else. The blood is gone. It's just, you know, I mean, it's just some bones and.

[A]

Yep.

[D]

What's left. But it's a graveyard that is full of vultures. And so for me to accept that.

[C]

We're talking about like a ground beef here, guys. Yeah, I mean, like, we're talking about you'd have to drain them that those scavengers want.

[D]

You'd have to drain the marrow. Like, they'll crack in and get everything.

[C]

And it happens under their nose. So.

[B]

Yeah, he even mentioned that, like, he's like. It looks like it could be like. I mean, like a scalpel or even like laser precision.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Yeah, he's just like, crazy, dude.

[A]

It's like the cuts on the eyes and stuff that we've seen, like, it's. You don't just go out, especially in the middle of the night. What are you doing? Yeah, like, how is that possible?

[C]

Right?

[A]

Bonkers, dude. It's.

[C]

It's very, very weird. So we go there for a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But yeah, he thinks that it is maybe some sort of satanic cult or I guess any kind of cult that feels like they need the blood and tongues of cows.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

So weird.

[A]

Have you guys ever tried beef tongue? Pretty good. Pretty good tacos, actually.

[C]

No, I have. Yeah.

[A]

It's not bad.

[C]

What do they call it, though? It's like.

[A]

Yeah, I can't remember. Yeah, I can't remember the name.

[C]

Big in, like, South Africa. Like, what's it called? You're talking about?

[D]

It's weird. Doesn't it start with a B?

[C]

It's like a beef jerky kind of. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[B]

It's good bubble. Yep.

[C]

That's it, right? Yeah.

[D]

Beef tongue, jerky, African.

[A]

What'd you call me?

[D]

Biltong.

[B]

So after.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. It's probably said in an accent. I'm not gonna try, but.

[C]

But yeah, no, it is. It is good.

[B]

Biltong after the first season. Were you. I always ask this to people that get any storm, like, sort of success with, like, UFO stuff. But Were you approached by, like, any, like, government official, like, weird entity? I don't know, agencies or anything? Agencies?

[C]

I wish, man. I will say no. Like, yeah, I haven't probably.

[B]

They know everything already.

[C]

But, um, I have found it. This is just my observation of the whole UFO world. I like to view myself as not, like, totally in the center of that. I mean, if you go on, like, Twitter or X, there's like, believers versus skeptics, and they really don't like each other, and there's a lot of drama there. And I'm like, this is kind of wild. I. I found it that some people who are notable, I guess voices in this space were a lot harder to track down or get to come on my show. And not to say that my show is, like, super special and you should, you know, in my feelings should be heard if you're not. But I'm like, also kind of like, it's like you're dodging me. And it's, you know, and it's not everyone, but some people, they only want to tell their story through their little voice box.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And that's journey to me.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm not even saying that I'm going to challenge you, but I think maybe because of the true crime thing. And sure, it's not just like, I'm like, why are all these guys going on, like, podcasts that have, like, five views? Like, in. No, like, if your podcast has five views, that's great. Like, mine started off with five views, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I'm like, these people are, like, spending time just going on shows that, like, no one's going to listen to, really. Just a kind of fan service or something. So it doesn't, like, it doesn't jive with, like, do you care about getting this out to the masses, or are you scared about someone poking a hole in your story?

[D]

Even just the psyop to get clipped. Like, go to a place where they're just going to listen, you tell it how you want and get out and know the clip will go somewhere.

[A]

Yeah, I did talk. I have been on interviews. I'm not afraid to talk about this. Look at. You know, I've done plenty of interviews. Like. Well, no. Really?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you try to get Bob Lazar on?

[C]

I did, and I know Jeremy Corbell pretty well at this point. And honestly, I mean, Jeremy, if you. If you see this, you were hard to get at first, too. This is actually a funny story. I think I'll tell, like, a small version of it in the podcast. But I was supposed to meet with Jeremy Corbell in season one. We were out there in Vegas. There was a Star Trek convention, and Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp had a panel. And so we had been talking, and I was like, okay, one. While we're out here, let's go see Area 51, which is what we did in the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then let's go to this panel and see if we can finally make that in person, connect with Corbell and nap and show him that we're not, like, you know, spooky and we can be trusted in some way. So we talk afterwards. And I was recording the whole time, and I did tell him, like, right then, he was kind of like, what are you doing? But it was a short exchange. We get into the elevator, and it's me, Mike, my producer Jeremy, George Knapp. And he's like, by the way, this is my. My friend David. He's my bodyguard. We're like, ha. And he's this really tall guy, and. And you can hear him in the background. And I. I was just joking around because my. My buddy Tim Smith, who I mentioned earlier, who somehow knew Travis Walton. He manages the artist Zed, and he has, like, a, you know, residency there. And so he was going to get us backstage that night. So, I mean, I was like, y' all want to go backstage to Zed? Turns out that was David Grush. I don't know if you guys know who that is, but, like, one of the big whistleblowers for sure.

[D]

That's crazy.

[C]

And I was like, this was before he came out with anything, so they were. They were clearly talking.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And I just didn't know he was. Because no one knew who he was.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I just, like, had a random thought one day. I was like, wait a minute. Was that guy in the elevator David, Pull that tape up and you can hear his voice. You're like, oh, my God, we were so close.

[B]

That's crazy.

[C]

Haven't got David either, but, you know, Bal Bazaar. I tried to send a dm, but unless he follows me back, he can't see it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I have sent an email. We'll see. I kind of make a formal ask in the new season to get his take. I am gonna have to ask him, like, one or two questions that he probably wants to avoid, but they're all in just creating clarity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's no gotcha stuff. It's right. It's just like, let's just talk.

[C]

I don't even care if someone lied, if you lied and can admit you lied, I might. I'll probably believe you more now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If I know you lied and you're still lying about this and then you have something bigger to lie about and you can't expect me to believe the bigger lie.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Like just me personally.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Makes total sense.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What. What is your opinion on the government's involvement with UFOs right now? Like, what is. Because obviously we're seeing it more than ever before. What is your opinion, if any at all?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

How involved are they within this. This whole UFO atmosphere?

[C]

I mean, growing up, it was like Area 51.

[A]

Right.

[C]

This is where they have all the spaceships and the aliens and maybe they do, or maybe they did. Who knows? But I think, like, you know, as a kid and young adult, my viewpoint was like, the government knows and they're just. They're withholding it. And the more I've dug into it and the more people I've talked to, my personal assessment is that it's probably more likely that the government as a whole doesn't know anything or doesn't know very much. Now, there's certain people who might be close to certain sectors of the military or be a part of some black project, whatever it is, or work for Lockheed Martin or Boeing or whatever, and they know something way bigger. But I definitely don't think that's, like, common knowledge amongst, like, our senators or even presidents, and that's just been proven. I mean, not everything is, like, even the president isn't privy to every single piece of information they can ask. Yeah, but, you know.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. There's definitely a government underneath.

[C]

I think it's. Yeah. There's something, you know, probably hidden within the government to a degree, but also easier to hide because it's outsourced. I mean, it's like the government's like the dmv, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We don't want them making the planes that we take flights in. Right, Right. So they outsource that stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's probably some, you know, tech company, maybe ones that we're familiar with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

AT&T.

[B]

Right.

[C]

T mobile.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Makes sense.

[B]

AOL.

[C]

Is that a.

[B]

It is. I still have an email. Yeah, he does, but I made it in sixth grade and still my email.

[A]

Every time you give that out, so funny.

[C]

They're like, AOL. Oh, like AOL. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Oh, you're 64.

[B]

Yeah. Speaking of AOL, did you know that we got that.

[A]

Don't go anywhere.

[C]

Close your eyes. Exhale.

[A]

Feel your body Relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[C]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh. They're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts New Year, new me. Cute. But how about New Year, new money? With Experian, you can actually take control of your finances. Check your FICO score, find ways to save and get matched with credit card offers, giving you time to power through those New Year's goals. You know you're going to crush start the year off right. Download the Experian app based on FICO scoring model offers an approval not guaranteed. Eligibility requirements and terms apply subject to credit check, which may impact your credit scores. Offers not available in all states. See experian.com for details.

[B]

Experian.

[A]

Hey, folks, it's your friend Rave Damsey here. Sorry for the interruption. But listen, New Year's is finally among us. And like a gator at a public park splash pad, I couldn't be more excited. And since I got you here with me, I figured I'd share some of my New Year's resolutions with y'. All. So here we go. Number one, learn to play the accordion. I've always wanted to. It looks like a hoot. Perfect. My apricot habanero jam sounds pretty good, right? Number three, finally get that North Dakota hit run charge expunged from my record. It was an accident and almost no one got hurt. And number four, order custom merch from sundaycool.com for the 42nd annual Tampa Bay Seafood and Sunshine Festival. And finally, number five, I'd like to see my kids again. So, Cynthia, I know you're watching. Please return my calls. Speaking of calls, give me a call anytime. 1-800-865-0726. Happy New Year's, y'.

[C]

All.

[A]

Let's get back to the show.

[B]

We're back.

[A]

Put it down, Dude.

[C]

What is that thing?

[B]

Can't trust nobody.

[C]

It's a knife. Is it one of those? Are you real? Oh, yeah. Those are fun.

[B]

It's surreal.

[C]

Yeah. The only way to test if it's real is if you gotta.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

With conviction.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Have you seen, like, those tick tocks like that? They give, like, the kid, like it's a fake rubber knife, but it looks like A steak knife.

[B]

It's very funny.

[A]

And they're going, it's funny. But you're also teaching the kid it's okay to run around with knives.

[B]

It's all right.

[C]

They're always like seven minutes long. And you're like, God, I'm watching the whole thing. Thing now and then. They, like, don't show the ending.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

What was the point? At least show the ending.

[A]

Yeah, Come on.

[C]

Yeah, come on. Whatever.

[B]

All right, so second season, it's coming out. You said that you interviewed Jacques Vallee?

[C]

I did.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah, I just looked him up this morning. He seems like a legend, so.

[C]

He is the legend. And honestly, my. My friend Mike, he's like the biggest fan of his. Read all of his books. He's one of the og, like, straight shooter, UFO mystery, investigative journalists who's got some major swag, like, from the 60s, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, he worked for NASA at one point, didn't he?

[C]

I actually. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, I saw he did something. He was like a contractor for NASA for something.

[C]

He's smarter than me, I know that for a fact. But he was super cool. And, yeah, he's just a wealth of knowledge. So I only had like an hour with him. Like, what do I ask him? So I hit some of the basics, and then I wanted more personal insight, and he actually shared his own UFO story with me, and I never even knew he had one, which. That was kind of cool. So for anyone who is into this space, you know how big of a deal he is. And if you're not, you'll just hear how well spoken and just entrenched in this mystery this guy's been for decades. And zero conspiracy about him. He's just down the middle still.

[A]

Real deal.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Have you had a UFO experience yet?

[C]

So I've only had one. What? I think. I guess you could say it was a UFO story. Yes, there is. So my. My uncle lives in a town called Crestone, Colorado. It's actually where the subject of season two of up and Vanish took place.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Crystal Rising or went missing. I never told anyone back then that my uncle. I guess I did now that my uncle lived there, but he kind of helped me sort of navigate that really small place. But out there they have these sand dunes not too far from there, these natural white sand dunes. I was. I think I was like eighth grade. I was there with my cousin Camille, and we both were just sleeping in this tent. We got there at night and so I didn't really have A good, like, lay of the land, like perspective. But I could see the. The sort of tops of the sand dunes, but I couldn't really tell how large they were.

[D]

Sure.

[C]

And so that night, and I. I'm pretty sure it's somewhere on my old. In one of my old VHS tapes. I just haven't been. I haven't found it yet. But I started filming these lights that were just like these orbs essentially that were floating around in weird ways kind of on the ridgeline. And I couldn't tell how far it was. And at first I was like, are those people with flashlights? Like, that was like my first. It was clearly a light. There were lights multiple. And I was like, I can't rule that out, but that doesn't really make sense. They seem bigger than that. And so I was zooming in, all I could see was a blurry blob of light. But when I woke up the next morning, broad daylight, and I could see like what the terrain actually looked like, I was like, oh, that was. Those were not flashlights. I don't even think you can go up that far. Those were like weird droney looking lights in 2000, 1999 that I don't know what they were.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Did you have a certain feeling when you were looking at them?

[C]

Like, I mean, I was like, it's a ufo. I wanted it to be, but also was like, what is it really, though? And it wasn't until the next morning when I saw like what the train looked like and was kind of able to logically rule out my flashlight theory. And I was like, okay, well, I don't know what that was then. I haven't seen anything as peculiar as that since. I wish.

[A]

Do you seek that out? Do you, like, is that something like when you're out late at night or if you're looking at the sky or anything like that? Is that something that you hope for, some type of an experience like that?

[C]

I think it would be pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I always joke around with my friends, like my, yeah, please abduct me. Then I'm like, wait a minute. If I got. If I, like, if I legitimately got abducted. If I got abducted by an alien legitimately.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it was for real. No one would believe me.

[B]

Yeah, because you're in the space already, right? Yeah.

[C]

And I would.

[B]

So I feel.

[C]

And that would.

[A]

It makes us the perfect candidate.

[C]

That would suck.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, oh, you. You've got abducted too.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure.

[C]

I'm like, that would be so annoying. Yeah, but I would. I mean, maybe it's worth just the experience. Can I bring my phone? You know, can we, can we record this?

[A]

Yeah, but when you listen. I listen to the tape of Whitley.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I mean, him. I think it was him that got, you know, pinned down and it was like medically hurt.

[B]

Can you kind of tell that story with him, like, briefly?

[A]

That's so scary.

[C]

So Whitley Strieber, he is also like an, like an infamous name in the UFO world back in the 80s. He claims that one night, these insect like creatures that were not insect sized, they were like human sized insects, came into his house, abducted him, stuck this needle in his head, like, experimented on him, and then probed him. This is where the whole like south park probe joke sure started.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

This like, he was the first person to ever say an alien probed me. Which, I mean, even if that's like a pop culture thing now. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's a joke. It's a punchline.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so, you know, back to, like, my assessment if someone's telling the truth or not. Right. I was anxious to talk to Whitley just because of the videos I've seen of him online. And he's also a. He's a writer, he's an author, he's a professional storyteller. And he's good at it. So good that he has had many bestselling novels adaptations into movies. And part of my brain goes, where does fiction blur with his personal experiences? Or does it? Right, so here's my honest, no BS take on Whitley. Having interviewed him for one hour in person, it was not like, Travis Walton, Travis Walton. And I immediately was like, I believe this guy. He experienced this. And maybe it's just the way that Whitley tells the story. Maybe it's because he, you know, I think if he went to the grocery store and grabbed an apple, his version of that would also sound fantastical. Right. So let's give him that.

[D]

I got you.

[C]

But I. A part of me didn't fully believe him. So what I. But here's what I actually think. I think something strange and unexplained did happen to him that one night, that first night. And it was a. And it may have been a contact event, could have been exactly what he's saying. It's all the other things and subsequent visits over years and other stories that are added on to a lifetime of experiences that all become books that I'm kind of like, maybe. And it's not because he had success with his books. It's just more like do you know where that line is? You know, like, can you be objective enough? And so I did ask him, like, politely, and was like, you know, some people, not me on the Internet, think that because you're such a good storyteller that maybe you've embellished some of the elements of this. And he was quick to respond, saying that that is not true. But he also respected the fact that I kind of challenged it a little bit. And so in one of his stories, and this is true, and it is weird, he claims that on another abduction scenario in which he described people that looked like humans came into his house, they put an implant in his ear. And I was like, okay. And then he goes on to say that he goes to the doctor. They film this. I've seen the video. They try to take it out, like a little cyst or something. And they claim that it moved, like, when they tried to grab it, not like they pushed it away, but when they went to snatch, moved away, reacted. And so they were only able to get a little piece of it. And he was like, yeah, it's still in my ear right now. And he's like, it's been listening for the past 45 minutes. It's turned on. And I was like, what do you mean? What do you mean, turned on? And he just. He's like, yeah, it's like a. Almost like another brain. And so I was like, is it weird if I can I feel it? And he said, sure. And so I. I've touched Whitley Strieber's ear, and there is wrong ear. His actual ear.

[A]

My ears up here.

[C]

I'm like, oh, oh, you meant your ear. Okay, so we call it probe.

[A]

I'm sorry, I don't know where I'm.

[C]

From, we call it something different. Yeah. But it felt like a little bb. And I was like, that's weird.

[A]

Completely unnatural from a human body.

[C]

I mean, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, a doctor would be like, it's a cyst. Maybe. Like, it probably feels like a cyst, but to me, it felt like a bb. Like, that's like a small bb.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so the weirdest thing that actually happened, which is also I find very hilarious about. It was about. It was an hour interview in about 15 minutes into it. We'd been there at this conference for, like, three or four days, and the whole time in this room that we were using to do the interviews, there was this obnoxious fly that we could not swat. We could not get it out of there. Between every interview, we're like, whatever. It would always kind of just go hide whenever the interview started and wasn't buzzing around. Thankfully, 15 minutes into the interview, that fly lands right on his knee. And I'm. And I'm like, trying not to laugh because I'm like, oh, my God. Like, it's on his knee.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it stays there for 45 minutes. He's even crossing his legs and moving around. The fly does not move off of his knee. I. I've just personally never seen something like that. Yeah, we couldn't catch the thing.

[B]

That's crazy.

[C]

And I was like. I wanted to, like, pull up my phone. Like, is anyone else seeing this right now? And they all saw it, too, but it never moved. And I was thinking about when he said at the very end. Yeah, like, you know, my thing turned on, like, 45 minutes ago. And I don't have, like, an exact timestamp of when that fly landed on his knee because you couldn't hear it. But I want to say it's kind of around the time that the fly landed on his knee is when he said later that his implant and his ear turned on, man. And I'm like, the insects. Either way, I'm like, that's just weird. Like, if that happened to me right now and it was there, that would just be weird.

[B]

Oh, yeah. UFOS or not staring at the thing.

[A]

Yeah. For real.

[C]

It was.

[B]

That's crazy.

[C]

It was. It was. It was really weird. It was kind of funny.

[A]

Pray Mantic was on his shoulder the whole time as well.

[C]

But there's also like, some really, like, you know, big techy people there who, you know, if. If there was anyone who has the technology or power ability to create a little baby, little drone or something that looks like a fly, they were there. Not that I think that's what it was.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I know that possible to do. I don't know why I was flying around our room, but it's probably just a fly.

[A]

But sure, whatever helps you sleep at night, right?

[C]

We joked that it was like Whitley's, like, little secret recorder or something. I don't know. But it was strange.

[B]

So.

[C]

Man, I'm conflicted about some elements of his story. Either way, I do think me and you can hear his own hypnosis tape.

[B]

Yeah. Very scary.

[C]

It's haunting.

[A]

Well, yeah. It's also like he was, you know, not to get into much in detail, but medically, he was hurt.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

From the probing. And it's like, that's not something usually you're, like, bragging about, right? No, Something you're really, like, proud of, that you're just gonna, like, put on the, you know, the headlines.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. He seemed to. To, like, have regretted even, like, saying too much detail about that because people were making fun of him, which, you know, and, you know, he said that his first thought was that he was criminally assaulted that night. I'm like, this wasn't like a weird dream. Like, it could have been a weird dream, but at the same time, something happened that you didn't do to yourself that you feel like someone or something.

[A]

Else did to you that is 100% real, at least to you. And it's. Yeah. Like, it's.

[C]

Yeah. And the doctor's like, yeah, something happened. And I was like, well, what did the doctor think? Probably really happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And he's like, well, you know, I don't think he fully believed me on my UFO story. He probably thought that I, like, took some drugs and, you know, was assaulted or something.

[A]

I mean, who knows? Whatever. Yeah.

[C]

But, yeah, the physical injuries were very real. And so those components are compelling to me because it's still like, you know, we don't know what happened. He has a version of events. I think something strange and anomalous happened that night, but we'll never know fully.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Unless they come get me and then I come back on the show and I'm like, hey, you're not gonna believe this. I already know you're not. But then a fly lands on my leg and you're like, maybe I can. Confirms it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When was his abduction? You said the 80s.

[C]

I want to say it was 86 or 85.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, even the. The praying mantis thing, that's. That's also a commonality with some people with, like, you know, there's that one whistleblower, I forget, and what branch he's in. But how. His abduction story was the same thing with these praying mantis, and they're, like, experimenting on him and, like, they actually, like, physically left marks on them and stuff.

[D]

Was that what Alberino was talking about? The insectilens?

[B]

Alberino's talked about them, too. Yeah. But, yeah, it's just a weird. A weird thing if you're going to make something up. I would. I would not make up a giant praying mantis.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you have commonalities of people who haven't heard their stories, and they all come separately and tell their stories in small towns and big cities. And it's like, how do you make sense of that?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You also said that the first Night he was abducted. In the interview, he mentions how his neighbor, who's abducted police officer or something, saw something outside his house.

[C]

Yes. And so my narration is not in there yet.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But, yeah, the way that he tells it. Is that the clip that you showed us. Yeah. A year later, his neighbor's like, hey, I saw that happen. But there's an asterisk there that I will point out slowly as the story unveils in the show.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Where his book about that story was also out by that point. So it's like, you cannot say that it was. He's now recalling an event that he was prompted to recall from having read Whitley's book. Maybe that actually did jog his memory, but it wasn't like he just one day was like, hey, I saw something. He's saying, I read this and I saw that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So, I mean, I see. And I mean, in the court of law, people like. Like, your testimony becomes under a little bit more scrutiny in the courtroom.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In situations like that.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If you. If you want to get down to, like, the brass tax about it.

[A]

Right. You didn't come forward until it's by it or whatever. Yeah. But maybe it's one of those things where you just didn't think anything of it until you're like, oh, my goodness. Yeah, of course. That this was exactly what happened, because I thought it was just a normal thing, and then that all adds up, you know, so.

[C]

And also, if all that stuff really did happen to me, I'd be writing books about that, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I'd be making all kind of podcasts. So, you know, I don't think that that's a reason to not believe him because, like, that. But he is a storyteller, and, you know, I come from, like, the documentary kind of space. I love writing fiction and all that stuff. I try to make a compelling narrative out of real events without. Without distorting anything just to make it more interesting for you. But, you know, I could see how even myself could start to blur the lines with, you know, fact and fiction about my own personal experience.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

How big was that fish again?

[A]

Right. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Every year gets a little bigger. Right.

[A]

As. As humans, we have to realize what we're going to be, what we're going to take at face value and what we're not. And we have to be very careful with that.

[C]

Yeah. And like, we, you know, after he left, like, we always, you know, the group of us producers are like, okay, do you believe them? You know, and then we kind of got to a point where we're like, it isn't really about whether we believe them or not. I mean, for me, there's always that component because I want to. I want to know if someone's lying.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Right. And, like, that comes with other podcasts and, like, roles I play in investigating true crime stories. But it no longer became about belief. It's more like, what does this mean? There's a person here who is saying this with confidence. They seem to believe it. Yeah, we're not going to get to the bottom of whether or not they're lying about this, but what does it mean? These people with these stories, they're interesting. How does it fit into the bigger puzzle of what we clearly don't know? That there's something in the sky sometimes. And very incredible stories and incredible claims that have never been able to be proven to the point where everyone can say, yeah, it's real. And what is it anyway?

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, it's funny. Speaking of believing, it was that same trip that we listened to the Betty and Barney Hill.

[A]

I think it was the night that night.

[B]

And no one. I mean, I would say, I don't even know if you truly believe me. Maybe you do. I.

[A]

100% okay.

[B]

But the people on my trip, our co workers, did not believe me. And it shook me to the core. It was that night we were in this cab in the middle of nowhere in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, and I was sleeping in the living room, and there was no bathroom that I couldn't go into that would. Would wake. Wouldn't wake someone up. So I'm like, I'll just pee off the front porch. And I've told this on the podcast.

[C]

Before, but it's better anyways.

[B]

Yeah, I go. And I was peeing off the front porch. I see, like, a star. And it was just that feeling. It feels like someone's looking at me. And I look back in this storm, like, that's a really bright star. And literally, as soon as I thought that this started, bump jumped over, and it was right above these trees. And I'm like, oh. And it goes and just shot off. And I peed all over my legs. And then I was like. I went. I could not go back to sleep. I'm like, I do not want to get abducted. I'm so afraid right now. The next morning, I told everyone. They're like, all right.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

That was the first thing you said to me this morning.

[B]

The craziest thing that's happened to me.

[C]

Hello.

[A]

You're the perfect candidate, though.

[D]

You have a podcast, you talk about aliens, troll you.

[C]

Yeah, but I don't believe that for a second.

[B]

It was so scary.

[C]

Yeah, no, there is that, like, human element to it where, like, all the stories, I mean, it's like, instincts, gut feeling. I mean, animals in the wild have instincts about, you know, like, prey and just, like, predators, stuff like that. Right. A lot of people describe the same sort of experience where it wasn't just that you saw a light in the sky. Something about it immediately was felt off to you. Whatever that is, you could attribute that to. I talk about UFOs and aliens a lot, and it's. I just listened to that creepy Betty and Barney Hill episode. Totally possible. But there's also, like, a human nature part of it where, like, I wasn't there. I didn't experience that part. Yeah, but had I? Because, like, that's the most real part to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Individually, besides what you observed, your experience is unique to you. And I think that is sort of like, it's hard to quantify that.

[B]

And I wouldn't go out of my way to pee on my foot for a story. I just want to.

[A]

Right, but you would actually be on your.

[C]

Just for that. You would.

[A]

You would just for this moment.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And be like. Like, I gotta figure out a story why I did this. People are gonna know I peed on my pants.

[C]

What would be the most epic way I could have peed my pants last night?

[D]

They came like this on the ring camera and panic.

[C]

So I know there's pee on my pants, but I. I was. I swear there was a ufo.

[B]

All right, all right.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Go take a shower.

[C]

I believe you.

[B]

So second season. I wanna. I want to hear more of, like, what Jacques Vallee was talking about, because I've heard a lot. I mean, with every, like, UFO person, Jacques Fillet always gets brought up like, you know, like, Chris Bledsoe. We talk about him some. I don't know how I feel about Chris Bledsoe. I do know how I feel about. I just don't, like. I just don't like voicing it fully. But you hear, like, the name Jacques Fillet come up. I don't know if you've heard the name Tim Taylor come up.

[C]

I have.

[B]

With the whole NASA launch, controller, whatever, and all that. So, I mean, was there anything that you gleaned from Jacques Fillet that's just like, whoa, this is.

[C]

Yes. My biggest and sort of main last question. And he took his time answering. It was something along the lines of You've been studying this for decades, and here we are 40, 50 years after you've been looking into this, and you're sitting across the room from a podcaster who's asking you, like, what these things are still. Right. Like, did you like one that's. Do you find that a little crazy? You know, is that. And there was a common thread amongst all of the experts that I found to be the most credible and respectable, and that they're sort of like where they've landed on how to explain what these UAP anomalies are. It goes to a place of our perception of reality, and from there you can go as far as you want in any direction, but that's where they're all landing. And I think I feel similarly. You know, if you want to talk about paranormal stuff. Right. I. I've never really thought that ghosts in particular, and I could be completely wrong, were like my dead grandpa could be. I always felt like they were some sort of ripple or imprint in time. Like, my only paranormal experience was I heard someone running up the stairs. That's what it sounded, that's what it was. But there was no one in my house. It was a 300 year old house. And I'm like, I wonder if, like, you know, once upon a time there were kids running up these stairs and like that. Like these things are all kind of on top of each other and they just kind of slip through. I think if you solve the paranormal thing, you solve this too. I think there's some sort of like, there's no way that aliens from a different galaxy are traveling here the way we travel domestically.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's part of why it's so hard for some people to believe, because it's like, why would they choose to come here? I'm like, good point. I don't know. But why does anyone choose to do anything? I think people on Earth, because we are all that we know. You know, we don't know for sure there's another alien civilization out there. I mean, it's statistically, I mean, almost impossible for there not to be. But they could be wondering the same thing. I'm sure some of them are. Some of them have to be way more advanced. You know, we have. Even in this state of Florida, there's like preserved areas where you, you don't go and you let the wildlife in the swamp be in its element. Right. We wouldn't be that much different, would we? It's not like everything has to be like evil takeover. Not that there isn't some Sort of particular alien species that is like that. But I think that it's too easy for us as humans to look at it through the human lens of what we know.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

And I think it brings out a lot of, like, self importance sometimes where it's like, well, why haven't they shown themselves? They don't care.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's important to you. You think they're gonna do it. Yeah.

[C]

Right. It's like, I mean, just because you want that, why haven't I met my favorite celebrity? I don't know. Because they don't even know who you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They're not thinking about that. That's why, you know. But his biggest thing was like, it's a reality thing that he has landed on there being like, something. And like, I'm gonna botch how he said this, but he basically did an analogy where something can be there and not be there at the same time.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like you're looking at this, but like, maybe only I'm seeing it, but I'm really seeing it and it's there for me. That's real. This is where it gets confusing because I'm like, reality to me is like the down the middle, straight arrow logic where this is exactly what happened. But no one ever experiences life like that. All of us right now are having different perceptions of the same conversation.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And we'll never know unless I was in your conscious what that's like. And so if there's any way to toggle with that. And some of the guys I was talking to were saying that they feel like that's the biggest and most dangerous weapon someone could ever have is like reality manipulation. And I don't mean like staging something like, like the whole prank.

[B]

Blue. What is it? Blue beam. That I guess all like holographic.

[C]

But you. They're talking like Minority Report kind of stuff.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Maybe. Where it's like you can create in a different reality. I mean, you could, you could do anything if you could do that. If that's how you're moving around and doing stuff, you know, that's scary. It is scary.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I mean. Yeah, I mean, we, we kind of. We've always approached stuff from like a. Because we're all Christian, you know, from like a biblical standpoint. And a lot of Christians just get super uneasy with the alien topic and UFOs and stuff, and just like straight out call them demons and all that stuff. And I think there is a. Personally, I think there's a. A truth to that, but it's like, it's not just like a D. It's like. I feel like there's just. There's realms that we. Like, you're saying the reality is just, like, it's. Something's there, but it's not there. You know, it's like, yeah, we. The spiritual realm is real. And if, like, you're a believer in Christ and a Christian or any religion, really, you believe in supernatural stuff, even though you don't see it.

[C]

I mean, the Bible. The Bible is, like, the most supernatural book there ever was. I mean, I grew up and was raised Catholic. I'm not, like, a practicing Catholic now, but I was confirmed. And my grandma still goes to church every Sunday. And so a part of me is like, we already believe in things that you can't see, and your belief probably stems from what you're feeling and what you're experiencing spiritually. Right. You can't, like, quantify that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like on a. Like a spreadsheet. But, like, we already believe in things that we can't prove.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So it is, like, in a weird way, it's almost not that much different. And it's kind of also funny how, like, Catholics in general, like, the Vatican, like, they've kind of loosened up on the whole UFO thing, and they're like, actually, these could still fit.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know what I mean?

[C]

But I'm like, I find that interesting.

[B]

Yeah, well, the Vatican, I mean, it's. What's her face.

[C]

They're not opposed to it.

[A]

The Pope.

[C]

The Pope?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Wait. Yeah.

[B]

The Pope isn't Diana Pasulka, who's. She's been on Rogan and stuff. She's the professor of religious studies at University of North Carolina. But she's, like, been to the Vatican. She talks about the archives, where there's, like, a whole section about UFOs and stuff, and, like, how the Vatican has, like, some of the oldest. What do you call them? Archives. No. Like, observing the stars and stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What is it called?

[C]

Observatory.

[B]

Observatory, Yeah. I guess basically what I see. But, yeah, it's almost like the Catholic Church has been probably way more in it than, like, your mainstream Protestant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Churches.

[A]

We just act like it's a completely separate thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, even when you look at, like, what's in the courtyard, the. The pine cone statue or whatever it is, like the pineal gland and.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

The.

[D]

The Anunnaki stuff. And it's like, you know, whether it's just there as an art piece or stuff, but it's like. It's interesting that those Would be no pieces that you choose to like decorate your religious space with.

[A]

No. That symbolism's never by accident.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[C]

And I totally see it. Why? It could potentially be extremely disruptive and potentially dangerous to a degree for everyone to have some major paradigm shifting reality shock. I mean that happens like in a breakup, you know, I'm saying like that happens when you thought you were going to get into this school or whatever. Right. When like you had this whole like vision and idea of your, your purpose, your place in the world. Like everything. If something were to just pull the rug out completely, especially with religions, I feel like that would be. That could really mess with some people in the way that they perceive it. Doesn't necessarily mean that it goes away or isn't true. Like again, like there could be multiple truths here. But I think that for a lot of people, whatever their belief system is, if this encroaches it too much and makes them challenges it in any way, then it's just uncomfortable. And that's just human nature. And so I can see if I was the guy, the one person who knew all the secrets and could choose whether or not to do disclosure in like a one day White House presser on the front lawn. Here comes a flying saucer and some tall white aliens and the reptiles walking out and you're like, this is real. I could see how that wouldn't really benefit me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I was them, the damage control would be insurmountable. Like it just. Yeah. Like you just really wouldn't understand.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Like owed the truth, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

We are just by. We are owed a greater truth. But I also can see why. Yeah. There is zero to gain.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Zero.

[B]

Yeah. Have you heard the. I know there's been this one interview, this guy who's talked to a bunch of people that have had alien abductions and he said the commonality of a lot of people saying the name of Jesus or whatever, then the abduction stops. If you come across that at all in.

[C]

Who was it? John Mack who did that.

[D]

It's impossible.

[B]

I. I really don't remember.

[C]

I haven't heard that specifically, but I, I've heard more and more than ever and especially in the last couple years, way more crossover in religion with UFOs and aliens than I ever like initially thought there could even be.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yes. And even just accounts from some people who've come forward with, you know, wild stories, whistleblower type people, them kind of becoming religious after that and to the point where like it doesn't seem Like, a coincidence. Like, there is, like, a God. And, like, that is, like, some. For a lot of the stories, there's, like, a central higher power involved. And so I think it does go there. I don't know how it all shakes out and how it makes sense, but, like, always looked at stuff like the Bible, really, like, any religion's Bible, as, like, these were, like, mostly, like, metaphors and stuff. Right. This is not, like. I mean, people will challenge me on that, but, like, I always took, like, there's lessons to learn here, you know, like, this isn't like, a documentary account, is it? I mean, maybe. But then, like, if that. If that were the case, then some of them would be true and some wouldn't. But that doesn't seem fair. But they all have a very similar through line in terms of not being a bad person, you know, like, giving you purpose, believing. And a lot of miraculous things have happened when people do that. I mean, even at, like, this is a weird example, like, even, like, Grateful Dead concerts, like, I did a podcast about, like, these missing and murdered Deadheads, and they were talking about synchronicity. And I swear, during that entire journey of that story, there were so many moments where, like, things would happen. And, you know, I'm like, okay, is this just confirmation bias, or are we on some plane right now where we're, like, we're plugged in? And personally, I feel like there is something like, as a creator, I get tapped into sometimes, and I know that because I'm not always there. And when I get there, I know I'm there again. And it's almost like I don't even have to think about it. Trust me or not, but. Let's go. Yes. I'm not even making conscious decisions. I never end up staying there for as long as I want to, but it always feels like I'm in tune with something or, like, I don't know what that even means.

[D]

But, like, we were talking before. Before you came here, we were talking about music and how, like, biblically, music has some sort of effect on the spiritual realm. And, like, you go to David and he would. Saul would be tormented. In the Old Testament, they'd bring in David, he'd play his instrument. It says, like, he would be at peace. So we were making jokes. We were, like, with Saul and Emo, and he just, like, he's listening to his sad music again. We need. But, like, like, what is that? What is it about David doing a very physical thing, making music. It literally had effect. Spirit on Saul's spirit. Yeah. So you think about that, like, the creative spaces we're in, and it just makes me wonder, like, what is it that I'm participating in for good, for bad, that is having some sort of effect? Or is it just, like, maybe one type brings peace, one type gets you amped up, and then that opens you up. You know, you talk about, you know, all these Deadheads being, like, locked in. Could it be that they're just all on the same. You know, in the same space, ready to be. I don't know what the word would be, but, you know, kind of pulled together in some sort of synchronization? Yeah.

[C]

That was like. What they were saying was like, man, like, look at, like, a. A huge church or like, a bunch of people praying at one time. And, you know, can I compare that to a hundred thousand people at a Deadhead concert, like a Grateful Dead concert, all there for the same reason, same energy, kind of, like, willing the show into existence. They don't even know what they're gonna play that night, probably. And, like, it having some sort of, like, profound impact somehow.

[B]

I think consciousness is definitely. It's coming up more and more with, like, trying to study consciousness, and it's like. It's. So there's. I just think there's stuff that we'll never know and we'll never understand, unfortunately, in our lifetime.

[C]

Probably not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And whether it's good or evil, it can still be real.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. That's the.

[A]

That's the thing where it's. You know, it doesn't matter. Like, you talk about, like, we believe that the Bible is like a historical narrative. Like, it's.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Real and.

[D]

But with metaphor and wisdom, too.

[A]

For sure.

[C]

Right. Like, there's some worse kind of, like, the lesson to be learned here. But, like.

[A]

Yeah. And those things are there for that. Yes. But it's. But it is interesting just how, like, just because something is real for someone doesn't mean it's, like, it's. You know, I don't know. I'm not.

[C]

No, I know you mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, that's why I could never. Just because I'm not, like, a practicing religious person doesn't mean that I'm not spiritual.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And, like, I don't think anyone's making up their spiritual experiences with, for sure, Jesus, God, anybody, anything. I think there's a similar crossover with some sort of profound spiritual experience you may have had, witnessing something that changed your life could be a thing in the sky, but only you had that experience. And, you know, I Wasn't there. I was. I wasn't. I'm not you. I wasn't experiencing it through you. And so, yeah, like, that's why I could never, like, knock anything and be like, that's not true. Because I. I could. I can't really prove that.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, we look at, like, tribes over in, like, just on, you know, untouched countries where they have witchcraft and it's real for them. Like, it's legitimate stuff that we don't have here necessarily, like on the streets and stuff. But it's real and it's something they've manifested over there.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And it's.

[A]

Whether it's good or evil, it's real. You know, it's.

[D]

Exactly. And so, you know, it's even Egypt with Moses. Like, the biblical narrative is that they were. They were basically having a Hogwarts wizard off.

[C]

The original. So it's like, Expecto, you're totally right. I never thought about it like that.

[D]

There's power everywhere.

[C]

You were just going, yeah, yeah.

[D]

It's a question. I mean, for us, it's a question of higher power, but you can't deny power when power is present, I guess, is kind of how I see it.

[B]

Yeah. Did you have a clip? You said you had a clip, so.

[A]

I have a couple of things.

[C]

I have a clip I'll play. I was just going to, like, talk about, like. Like, to me, like, High Strange is my favorite show that I get to make that I've ever made, and for a multitude of reasons.

[A]

And it feels like that, too, when you're listening, which is really cool.

[C]

That's good. It comes off and we're all having fun. I mean, I grew up like. Like watching, like, E.T. and just, you know, Unsolved Mysteries. Wouldn't it be so cool if we weren't alone? So it's a little bit of nostalgia there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But at the same time, I do so much storytelling and true crime and investigative work that it's truly very heavy. And there's a lot of nuanced ways that I have to move in order to be respectful and objective and relationships I'm maintaining when I'm sitting in the room of someone's worst day of their life or their worst year of their life or the biggest tragedy that's ever happened to them.

[B]

Yeah, that's heavy.

[C]

There's a lot of stuff with that. But if you step outside of those elements of those stories that I tell and investigate, I'm also just a creator, too, at the end of the day. And so for High Strange, I have this sort of ultimate creative liberty, and in this thing that the stakes aren't as high.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And there's so much left to learn. There's so many ways to interpret it. And so one of the things that I started doing with our composer, makeup and vanity set. I call him Mavs. His real name is Matt. But also I've been trying to convince him to get, like, a rapper tag, like, a producer tag on his beats where I'm like, makeup made this. He doesn't like any of them. I'm still trying.

[A]

In the middle of your very intense score. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Makeup on a beat.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

My eyes makeup made this. But I will send him sometimes, like, a voice memo, and it's like a little challenge that we've created for ourselves. We're going to try to make a music cue out of this, and we're going to use it in the show. So I have, like, a breakdown of just the original voice memo, and then I'll take you through. I'll take you through the steps here.

[A]

Sweet.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, nice. So this is just the raw unprompted. Let's make a song out of this.

[A]

No.

[C]

No. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And then we'll, you know, we'll play with it a little bit. Okay. Now let's just get a little weird with it, And then let's play some more.

[A]

Deadhead concert.

[B]

Sounding, like, high strange already.

[C]

And then let's just go. This. This track's called Weirdos. It's called Weirdos. Here we go.

[D]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

It's already causing me anxiety, right?

[B]

Yeah, dude.

[C]

It's like the matrix.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Club scene.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

That's what I was doing in the gym.

[C]

You're frozen. Peeing your pants.

[A]

Is that sweat?

[B]

So fun.

[D]

The filters on that.

[A]

Good.

[D]

It doesn't cut into, like. You notice when anyone talked over that, it still cut through perfectly.

[B]

It's crazy mixed.

[C]

So freaking crazy how he's a genius. Like, that was just a voice memo from the iPhone. And, like, sometimes they'll be more challenging, but we've done it a couple times and never even told anybody. There's, I'd say at least three or four shows that have, like, me in there, but it just becomes, like, a weird instrument.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

It feels kind of strangely human, but almost subconsciously to you.

[D]

He left the breath on the back of it, too, and that just makes it. I mean, that's perfectly.

[C]

But yeah, I've always wanted to share that process because it's a fun little riddle. And then like, we're like, wow, this is actually. This slaps. We're like, okay, yeah, this is the trailer.

[D]

This is.

[C]

This is it.

[A]

I love seeing that from, like, the origin of the idea, and it's, like, how silly it sounds, but, like, how people's mind work. Dude, that's. That's what's beautiful about individualism, like, creation. That's so good.

[C]

And, like, the. This is the best show for all of us. Like, as producers here at Tenderfoot that I work with a lot on all my shows, we kind of just have this, like, ultimate creative freedom and permission to be weird about it.

[A]

Yeah. No ceiling.

[C]

No ceiling.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Let's just get funky with it. Yeah. The music this season is so sick, and the stories are crazy.

[B]

Are you doing weekly drops, or is it all at once?

[C]

So it'll be a binge.

[A]

Cool.

[C]

But it'll be free weekly. I think you'll get the first one or two for free. And if you sign up for Tenderfoot plus, it's.

[A]

What is that? Tinder Foot.

[C]

Tinder Foot Plus. Yes.

[D]

We'll pop the link.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I think it's five bucks a month. You can get it now or you can wait. It's fine.

[A]

Would you ever consider dropping the music just.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

As an album? Like, are you doing that?

[C]

Oh, no, we're dropping the ost. The original soundtrack.

[A]

Cool.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He's already got, like, 18 songs kind of pegged as the ones mastered.

[A]

See, I feel like that's what Stranger Things wanted to do in season five. Like, it's like that type of. Like, it's almost synthy, dark. I can't. Like, I was trying to. I was even trying. When we were writing that song, I was dropping in Suno just to see what it would come up. Like, and it just. Like, that's phenomenal.

[C]

And we'll sample, like, the weirdest things. Like, we were in this Airbnb in Oregon, and there's this weird, like, bell on the door, and I was just tapping it record on the phone. So that's in some of the. We take a lot of the soundscapes of where we are and kind of make them into this, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, it's just a fun challenge, but also it kind of creates this sort of surreal, like, atmospheric music. Because, I mean, you can't have, like, beating 808s over everyone's voice or people. Like, I can't hear what they're saying, but, like, kind of create that atmosphere.

[D]

YouTube's gonna insert an ad right here for Storyblocks.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[B]

I'm telling. I'm telling everyone now. High Strange was and still is, like, my favorite show. The storytelling, the music that we just heard, I mean, you just get. You get so. You suck them. So immersive and, like, creepy. I'm so afraid of things, but I love this kind of creepy. And just the. I mean, your storytelling, you're the way you can tell just how much effort you put into this stuff. And it's super cool.

[A]

And passion.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So in the very first episode, I'll just. Since I'm plugged in, I'll play like 30 seconds of it. Like the season one. Yeah, we'll hear an ad first, probably. I'm sure. Even though I have the Dropbox somewhere, I'm just gonna play it on my phone. I cold open with this sort of morning routine of mine, and I kind of land in this place of like, oh, yeah, we're just, you know, we're like hamsters on a wheel. We don't have time to ponder these existential thoughts. I get it. And so I wanted to mirror that morning routine for this season. I'm like, a lot of things have actually changed in three years, technology wise. So I'll play the first. Here we go. This morning, I woke up, had breakfast and some coffee, showered, then went to my office. I had a few zoom calls, a quick lunch, did some scrolling on TikTok and Instagram, sent a few emails, and some more emails. First shot of the day. Left my office, went to my local neighborhood bar. I love a good gym martini. A phone call, another email, another email. Time to eat dinner and go to sleep. Okay, I think you get it. Okay, so we all have a version like, okay, what's my morning routine? This time I'm like, I wanted to be kind of like 2026. I haven't. This is what I got so far. This morning, I woke up, grabbed my phone before my eyes were fully open. Notifications, summaries, a daily briefing I didn't ask for, but somehow I trust. Hey, Chat. What did I miss while I was asleep? I don't know what he's gonna say there, but probably just something kind of funny. And doomsday.

[A]

Y. Trump's again.

[C]

Yeah. It's like, okay. Weather app says it's fine. News app says everything's on fire. Calendar app, already stressed. A reminder to stand up, breathe. A reminder that I ignored yesterday. Coffee, shower, sweat, sweatpants on top, real shirt on the bottom. Wait, what? Went to my office, which is also in my house. Couple meetings, one with cameras. On one with cameras. Off one where everyone muted but somehow is still talking. A few emails, a few written by me. A few written with some help. I want to do this whole, like, hey, chat thing where it's like, you.

[B]

Need to do like a soundscape over.

[D]

It was like, how can I make it funny? Make it like, way worse toilet flushing.

[C]

I was trying to work up what would be like, the most, like. Like, I feel seen sort of like, hey, chat. Questions I could ask myself throughout my day that are like, absurd. Like, ADHD brain. Like, how many solo cups could be filled with the water in the ocean? Or just like, oh, there's something. Yeah, yeah, and. Or like, hey, am I right about this? Like, getting some, like, glaze me with.

[A]

Like, my sister's overreacting right now. Right. Am I hearing the right or like.

[C]

Hey, Chad, can you please come up with a really believable excuse to miss this call? Well, I don't support line. Just do it.

[A]

My life is on the line.

[C]

Right. So I'm still playing with that. But, like, it's crazy that in like, three years, so much has changed just like, in how we.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, what we're even talking about.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

What was hey, chat. Yeah, also I never actually say that, but the Internet does, so.

[D]

Dude, getting to see this process is so interesting to me.

[B]

Very interesting. Super cool.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm curious to make your own too.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. So we, you know, we do. We do a weekly drop and yeah, die by that. But the goal is to, like, incorporate, like, we're inspired by what you create, and the goal is to, like, incorporate, like, even just that soundscape is the dude who's, like, putting it all together. But I'm curious if you.

[C]

I mean, you'll clearly have the music chops. We're.

[D]

We're doing our best. I'm literally still using GarageBand and finger punching a keyboard to build this stuff. It's pretty terrible.

[C]

I mean, so I. I grew up as like, video editor first.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

And so, like, that's one even how I know how to edit a podcast, because I edit videos my whole life. I used, I mean, imovie Final Cut. Then that got extinct. Then I had to move to Adobe Premiere, and I made the entire first season of up and vanished, like 30 plus episodes all within Adobe Premiere, which is a video editing program, just in the bottom portion of where you put the audio. Because I was refusing to learn a new program.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And I look back now, I'm like, that was. I was making that so much harder on myself.

[D]

That's how he looks at me. Making our thumbnails.

[C]

But you can make bangers in GarageBand, you know, like.

[D]

Yeah, you can. If you had to. If you had to do a weekly drop like, every week, what. What would you. For that process? Because it seems like, you know, you go back and forth and you're. You're doing all that stuff. How would you, like, what efficiency would you throw in there?

[C]

Like, what, a weekly drop of what?

[D]

Like. Like a full episode. Kind of like our format where you have to, like, tell stories, do music.

[C]

I feel like you just keep throwing in monkey wrenches like you're talking about. Yeah, just like, you just, like, starts with that right there. Like, let's do this today. Like, let's. Or bring something in that just, like, creates the chaos or creates a talking point or the happy accidents that happen.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

It's like, you can plan, like, so much, like, the documentary stuff I do, I'm like, this guy might. We might fly to Michigan, and this guy is just not even going to open the door. Like.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's a risk. Right. But how do we, like, mitigate that risk from even a storytelling standpoint? And it's like, you don't always know what those special moments are going to be until you get back later.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I would hear a tape. I'm like, wow, this sounds amazing. I thought it sounded really stupid in the moment when I was just sitting there talking in the car, but I'm so glad we got that.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it's real and it's. Whatever it is.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So, like, just kind of always, like, I get bored easily with the podcast that I even make. So, like, to keep my own self entertained enough to, like, to go into the gauntlet of, like, making a complex show, like, setting kind of new challenges where they feel like it's kind of like a risk, you know, to me, High Strange Season 1 felt like a risk because I didn't want people to take me less seriously. I wanted people to, like. I wanted the masses to feel like it was okay to entertain a UFO story investigation.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Because I felt like everything I'd seen mostly was, like, kind of catered to people who already believed.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And so it's like, how do I get, like, my grandma to be like, wow, maybe, you know, like, that's all I want. Like, if I can get you to even listen, you know, then we have a conversation to have. Yeah, true that with everything. But, like, this time, my tone is. Is a lot different. Like, thematically, I think it's more Like. Like, I'll play the trailer that drops soon. It's kind of like, sarcastic. Like, we already know it's real. We're kind of almost exhausted by it, to be honest. To me. It has been exhausting.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, just show us the spaceships. Like, Gen Z definitely just doesn't care. They're like, yeah, we know that's real.

[A]

Get to it.

[C]

You're hiding it from the older people now. You mean it's. We don't. We all don't care anymore. You know, I'm saying. Let's see. I think I actually text it to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I'll find that. But the first one was like, what's out there? I was like, I can't take that same approach.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Plus that feels super corny to me now. So I'm like, what is the approach then?

[A]

Yeah, you're just telling a story. I mean, each chapter, it's a new chapter.

[C]

We did it. We've learned everything there is to know. Our entire universe is solved. We did it. We found every planet, mapped every star, named every species. Those lights in the sky, we know what those are. What's there to even talk about? We made it. We know how it all works now. Nothing left to find, nothing left to wonder about. Because we already know everything. We didn't definitely feel like that, don't we? Some of us. You don't really believe that, do you?

[D]

So good.

[A]

So fun.

[C]

Because, like, it. And it's weird because, like, if you look back in time, like we used to smoke cigarettes on airplanes, there's still ashtrays. Like, that sounds insane, right? We just didn't know that they caused cancer. Didn't just did it. So it feels like in the moment, even for me, this is it. Because time is like, we're learning slowly, and it becomes applied to everything. So it's easy to feel like we already kind of know everything. Because what you don't know, you can't even imagine up. Can't even think it up.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so we're not even aware.

[A]

We couldn't even.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I feel like for a lot of people, this whole UFO thing has become a tired story. For me, it has. Where's, like, another guy saying that the government, we. How many guys is that going to take before, like, it. It feels any different?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Or it's, like, exhausting me. And so that's kind of like the tone I want to take with it. Because it. It's easy to be like, screw it. We'll never know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Or we just in that weird limbo period and, like, let's look at what we have learned in the last three years, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know.

[A]

Yeah. Can we continue to still ask questions? Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Can we find a way to figure out where to go next? It's not everyone's job to do that, but, like, you know, there are people actively trying.

[A]

Yeah. And this can't be it. You know, we can't just be done having conversations.

[C]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

People are looking for compulsion. And so I feel like that's kind of the name of the game too. It's like, what can I give that compels somebody?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

People want proof, but I'm also kind of like, proof is different to every person.

[D]

That's the truth.

[C]

Like in a murder investigation in the courtroom, it's like if your fingerprints are on the gun and the calls line up and there's 10 eyewitnesses, it's like, okay, pretty sure that happened. Right. But what is the proof to any random person in your office today in the state of Florida, the country of Florida? Because it feels like it's not part of the rest of. But what would it take for you, anyone, to be like, oh, wow, we're not alone in the universe. And by that, we mean there's other intelligent life that's more intelligent than us.

[A]

And sometimes it's just reframing the. The proof. Right. Like when. Like when in college when we're teaching, like, how to preach. Like, it's like, right. There's the message, but learn how to say it. The message. The truth that you're trying to convey in three different ways. Because not every single person is gonna. Yeah. Hear it the same way. So, like, correct when you say it. The one person, like, man, that nailed it on the head and the other person's, like, flew over, didn't understand it, doesn't resonate. But if you can reframe it in a way where the truth is still there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The proof is still there, but you could just reframe it in a way where it's a lot more digestible and. Oh, that makes a lot more sense.

[C]

That actually is an amazing example. That's kind of. It's different for everyone. Right. But how will you believe?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so, like, this whole idea of the podium disclosure, announcement, that's. That's Hollywood's version. Yeah. I think if there's something greater to learn, which there clearly I think is, we'll learn it slowly and people will adapt. And in a thousand years, those things will Be just part of our life. I mean, where was AI three years ago?

[A]

Yeah, I was just looking at a photo.

[C]

You're probably using ChatGPT, right? Just then, I mean, yeah, we were just.

[A]

It was weird. I was looking at a photo from three years ago showing you yesterday. And it was just in our like work slack. And I was just like, me and my buddy who does like the graphic art, he sent me something he generated.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And I was. We were. We were in the message. We're just like, this is incredible.

[C]

Totally.

[A]

This is amazing. And I'm looking at the art now. I'm like, it was trash. It was terrible. It was awful. But it's like I could do so much better now.

[C]

Look, I did a thing.

[A]

Yeah. It just develops so quickly. The world changes so fast. More than ever, I feel like now like.

[C]

So that video I showed you. Proud to say that there is zero AI in that video.

[A]

That's great.

[C]

Not that like I'm. I'm not anti AI. No, but like as a creator, you know, there is some sort of like, you know, it's a threat to a lot of creators.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

I've tried to take the stance of, you know, when the Internet came out, I could, I. If I was an adult back then, I could have been like, I'm not using the Internet. Well, it's already here, so you're eventually going to be a part of it somehow. You don't have to, but you're going to not be able to catch up. AI is similar. So I'm like, okay, how could this help? A process. But ironically it's like only in my temp Vo voice and it's actually an AI voice version of my voice.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So as I'm bragging about that, that's just the temp Vo, but we got it down to like sound a lot like me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's crazy.

[C]

Which is like. I don't know how I feel about that really.

[A]

But.

[C]

But it like it's. It already exists.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

I'm just. Someone else could do it too.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Also scary.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, we don't use any AI in our video.

[A]

No, we're very.

[B]

All the reels you guys see, that's.

[A]

All from like hand drawn or real footage.

[C]

Right? Cartoonists.

[B]

Well, Payne, thank you so much for coming on.

[A]

It's been a dream, dude.

[B]

It's been awesome. We are so excited for your second season of High Strange.

[A]

Everyone who's which drops today, let's go listen on Spotify, Apple, wherever, wherever. Okay.

[C]

Get your podcast if you can't figure out where you get a podcast. Then how are you even listening to this?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Simulation.

[B]

And we're going to have an episode right after this. Patreon.com for/ninjas or butterflies or for our YouTube members. I want to ask you about the Calvine UFO photo.

[A]

I'm sure we got some other spooky.

[B]

Stories too, so that's some cool stuff.

[A]

But also June 6th, third season.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Maybe we can have you on. That would be awesome. Cool.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe we'll be in a spaceship next time.

[A]

We could, we could.

[C]

There's also something that I don't want to be put out now that we can talk about then. If it works.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Well, is there anything else you want to plug? Where should people follow you?

[C]

I mean, honestly, I probably only post on Instagram. Really? You can follow X, but I only post there Instagram. If you want to see little tidbits of behind the scenes sometimes or whatever.

[B]

Heck yeah.

[A]

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here, dude.

[B]

Yeah, dude, it's been awesome.

[A]

Let's tune the conversation on Patreon YouTube members.

[B]

All right. Love you guys.

[C]

Dolphins, what you're about to see.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

May disturb you if any of you.

[D]

Know what these multi decade UAP dolphins are.

[A]

Aliens.

[C]

Bottle nose fish, pigs. Was a massive police response thing.

[D]

Dolphin style attack.

[A]

Oh no. Yeah.

[C]

Just.

[A]

We are just.

[B]

This is the story SFX 30 about.

[D]

The creature.

[C]

From beyond.