No Bullsh!t Leadership with Martin G Moore

Episode 370: How to Handle the Trade-Offs That Test Your Integrity
Release Date: September 30, 2025

Overview of the Episode

In this episode, Martin G Moore explores the real-world challenges leaders face when their personal or organizational values are put to the test—particularly when upholding those values comes with a tangible cost. Moore dissects the difference between values as aspirational statements and values as lived behavior, sharing hard-earned wisdom from his own leadership journey. He identifies the three main drivers that prompt leaders to compromise their values and concludes with a practical framework for maintaining integrity under pressure.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Values Only Matter When They Cost You Something

Placing Values in Context: Moore kicks off the episode by stressing that values aren’t about what’s written in glossy brochures or talked about at town halls, but about decisions made when there's something significant at stake.
- “Your people don't care what you say your values are. They only care what you do when the chips are down.” (03:12)
HBR Inspiration: The episode was inspired by a Harvard Business Review article that declared, “Values don't count until they cost you something.” Moore reads and discusses key excerpts.
- “The strongest cultural signals are those that involve visible personal risk... Without that cost, values remain performative. They read as theatre, not truth.” (07:15)

2. The Danger of Performative Values

Widespread Hypocrisy: Moore observes many leaders tout integrity as a top value, but often abandon it when the stakes are personal.
- “For many of these leaders, the minute they have to choose between acting with integrity and facing the personal risk or cost that this would involve, their integrity is conveniently swept aside. Not because they're bad people... you don't really find out what's important to someone until the pressure's on.” (09:00)

3. Personal Leadership Reflections: From CS Energy

Culture Change in Practice: Moore recounts efforts to shift company values at CS Energy to be safe, create value, take accountability, and act with integrity—contrasting them with the entrenched behaviors he encountered.
- “The culture I found there may well have been described using these four values: Safety in numbers, maintain resistance, deny ownership and milk your entitlements.” (14:30)
- Describes scenarios like ‘soft theft’ (e.g., falsified overtime) as integrity litmus tests reflecting deeper systemic failures, not just individual misbehaviors.
Leadership Dilemma: Moore explains why he didn’t take immediate, black-and-white action against misconduct, choosing instead a gradual approach to change, due to the scale of cultural inertia and union resistance.
- “I had to suck up my own personal sense of integrity and take a slower, softer approach than I would have otherwise liked. Let's face it, it'd be pretty hard to run a power station if 50% of the workforce was dismissed in the same week.” (19:45)

4. The Three Temptations to Compromise Integrity

Moore identifies the main reasons leaders break from their values:

1. Money: Financial incentives or disincentives can overpower proclaimed principles.
- “Some leaders have really strong values until it looks like upholding them is going to hit them in their own hip pocket.” (23:05)
- Example: A CEO who asked Moore to manipulate financial reporting to meet bonus targets.
2. Fear of Conflict: Avoiding confrontation, especially with high performers, can lead to excusing bad behavior.
- “It's a lot harder to step in and hold them to account for their behaviour. Talented jerks are normally pretty headstrong and it's often easier to just let them have their way.” (25:15)
3. Loss of Standing: Upholding values might mean disagreeing with superiors, risking reputation or career.
- “To uphold any of these values means that occasionally you've got to take some risk. But what happens in a situation where upholding your values means that you're going to have to disagree with your boss?” (27:20)
- Example: Disagreeing directly with a CEO over a redundancy program, which Moore admits he could have handled more tactfully.

5. Three-Part Test to Stay True to Your Values

Moore offers a practical framework:

Step 1: Recognize Conflict
- Be aware when your values are in tension with immediate action. Many act unconsciously, choosing the path of least resistance.
Step 2: Threshold Question
- “Are you compromising your values for personal reasons or for the good of the team and the company?” (31:18)
- Intentionally distinguish between necessary flexibility due to larger organizational change versus expediency for personal gain.
Step 3: Pay the Price Up Front
- “If you can manage to get your head around the fact that staying true to your values is going to have some sort of toll, and that it's worth paying that price to keep your values intact, then you're going to find it way easier to make the right decision when it counts.” (34:45)
- Ask yourself, “What's the worst that can happen?” If you can live with the consequences, stay the course; if not, reconsider if it’s truly your value.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Accountability:
“Values are a behavioural choice that every individual makes. And despite the popular swing to victimhood over the last decade or so, we all have control over how we behave.” (10:30)
On Compromising for Culture Change:
“As much as it irked me, we knew that we were going to have to change it gradually from the inside out.” (19:30)
On Leadership Vulnerability:
“No one's perfect. And even when it comes to your most cherished values, it's almost impossible to be consistent 100% of the time. So you need to be kind to yourself.” (38:05)

Key Timestamps

00:33 – Main theme introduction: Values versus actions under pressure
07:15 – HBR quote: “Values don't count until they cost you something”
14:30–20:00 – CS Energy case study: confronting cultural norms vs. aspiring values
23:05–28:00 – The three drivers that tempt leaders to compromise (money, conflict, standing)
31:18 – Three-part decision test for integrity
34:45 – “Pay the price up front” leadership hack
38:05 – Accepting imperfection and the peril of benign neglect

Tone and Language

Moore’s tone is candid and direct, with a blend of practical wisdom and personal vulnerability. He uses the “no bullshit” theme to cut through theoretical approaches and ground the discussion in lived leadership experience.

Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode pierces the comfortable myths around values in leadership, arguing that integrity is truly proven only when it comes with real risk or sacrifice. Moore details how even experienced leaders are tempted to perform rather than live their values—especially when money, conflict, or personal standing are on the line. Using stories from his own leadership, he acknowledges complexity and shades of gray, offering a clear, actionable method for confronting ethical dilemmas. The message: Your true influence and cultural legacy are defined not by what you say about your values, but by what you’re willing to pay to uphold them.

Transcript

A (0:00)

Hey there and welcome to episode 370 of the no Bullshit Leadership Podcast. This week's episode Values don't count until they cost you something.

B (0:10)

Welcome to the no Bullshit Leadership Podcast. In a world where knowledge has become a commodity, this podcast is designed to give you something more access to the experience of a successful CEO who has already walked the path. So join your host, Martin Moore, who will unlock and bring to life your own leadership experiences and accelerate your journey to leadership excellence.

A (0:33)

I can't believe that I'm 370 episodes in and I've never tackled this issue head on. What are the implications of the disconnect between a leader's values and their day to day behaviour? You can stick your values in a glossy brochure or an annual report, you can talk about them in your town hall meetings and you can make them part of the onboarding process. But your people don't care what you say your values are. They only care what you do when the chips are down. Do you still have integrity even when it might cost you money? Do you mandate respect for others even though it might risk losing a top performer? Do you offer your opinion freely and honestly, even when it could damage your standing with the boss? That's when the real test comes. Because make no mistake, your people are watching you. They see the difference between what you say and what you do, and any inconsistencies are going to reverberate throughout your culture. What I've learned over the years is there's a big difference between the values you hold dear and use to guide your behaviour, as opposed to the values that you expect someone else to live by. You need to know the difference and lead accordingly. I'm going to start today by talking about why values aren't always black and white. I'll explore three common root causes that entice leaders to deviate from their stated values. And I'll finish with my three part test to help you stay true to your values. So let's get into it. I got the idea for this episode from an article in Harvard Business Review which was to change company culture. Focus on systems, not communication. I was browsing this article somewhat mindlessly when a subheading caught my attention. Values don't count until they cost you something. Wow. The article spoke to the fact that culture will be determined to a large extent by the values that the company focuses on. But talk is cheap and people are always watching to see what signals their leaders send based on their actions. They want to know what you find acceptable so they can work out how much latitude they have in their behaviours. I don't do this very often, but I think it's worth quoting two paragraphs from this article in their entirety. Executives often champion values like empathy, inclusion and integrity. They appear in slide decks, onboarding sessions and CEO town halls. But employees rarely judge values by how often they're named. They judge them by what leaders are willing to give up in order to uphold them. The strongest cultural signals are those that involve visible personal risk. That might mean changing how incentives work. It might mean enforcing values even when it means losing a top performer. It might mean sharing decision making power that used to sit solely at the top. Without that cost, values remain performative. They read as theatre, not truth. This resonated with me deeply, because the word performative perfectly sums up how some leaders exercise their values. Just go and randomly select a bunch of podcast interviews with leaders who are describing their leadership journey. I will guarantee you that 95% are going to talk about how important their values are, and almost all will specify integrity as their number one value. But for many of these leaders, the minute they have to choose between acting with integrity and facing the personal risk or cost that this would involve, their integrity is conveniently swept aside. Not because they're bad people, it's just that you don't really find out what's important to someone until the pressure's on. In my world, values are everything. Particularly because, as you may have heard me say, values are a behavioural choice that every individual makes. And despite the popular swing to victimhood over the last decade or so, we all have control over how we behave. But I think it's important to draw a distinction here. There's a difference between the standard you need to hold yourself to in support of your values and the standard you expect from those around you based on those values. Not everyone's going to hold the same values as you. My time at CS Energy provided me with many graphic examples of this. A little while after I took over as CEO, I decided the values needed to change. What did the company need to do, and how did the people need to behave in order to dig the business out of the hole it was in? So I replaced the values with these four and had them approved by the board. Be safe, create value, take accountability, and act with integrity. To say that these four values were aspirational would be a massive understatement. They didn't really describe in any way, shape or form what the culture was actually like at the time. We rolled them out so we couldn't be too black and white about how these values were applied to the people who worked there, knowing that in some cases their actions demonstrated the polar opposite. It was always a matter of degree. And you've got to read the play. You can't die in a ditch over every little thing, otherwise you wouldn't last two weeks. In most leadership roles, when I speak about leadership principles, I speak quite categorically. I talk in very black and white terms because, hey, I'm making a point, right? I give you the extremes of each end and I can be really demonstrative about what you need to do or not do. But in reality, it's never that black and white. The higher up you go, you just get to deal with a thousand annoying shades of grey. We produced a podcast episode on this a little while ago. It was episode 273 which talks about some of these nuances in more detail. So I'll often say something like don't dip down. Sounds like one of the Ten Commandments, right? But in reality, it doesn't mean that you should never dip down or that there's never a circumstance in which dipping down is necessary. I just want the principle don't dip down to be in the forefront of your mind so that when you're faced with the choice to do it or to not do it, you can make some sort of judicious decision. Most importantly, you need to understand the cost and the trade offs that you make when you dip down into your people's work. Let me give you a quick example of how I tried to shift the values in CS energy to a set of beliefs and behaviours that would make a difference to the culture and to the performance of the business. Now remember, at the time those values were be safe, create value, take accountability and act with integrity. But when I first arrived, the culture I found there may well have been described using these four values. Safety in numbers, maintain resistance, deny ownership and milk your entitlements. I am massively against the soft theft that goes on in companies now. It might feel like a victimless crime, but it's a great barometer for where you stand on the value of integrity. For example, claiming overtime that you shouldn't have earned. This happens when a workforce has a cultural bias for gaming the system and management has decided that the easiest thing to do is just to turn a blind eye. An example of this is the practice where one team member would call in sick so that another team member would have to be called in on their roster day off. The replacement person gets paid double time and A half for that whole shift. The next day, guess what? It's someone else's turn to do the same thing. Now, this happened routinely in some of the pockets of our operational sites. My instinct was just to sack anyone who was caught doing it because the practice was completely antithetical to my own sense of integrity. But then I realised this conduct hadn't just sprung up out of nowhere. Successive management teams, probably over the course of decades, had allowed the practice to continue. It had been completely normalised in the culture of those teams. It was now seen as an entitlement. And when we suggested that it might not be the way we want to do things, we got ferocious pushback from the unions. Their first gambit was to say it wasn't happening, we were just imagining it. Then they said we had no right to change something that was a valid part of the enterprise agreement. This sense of entitlement was breathtaking. But as much as it irked me, we knew that we were going to have to change it gradually from the inside out. I had to suck up my own personal sense of integrity and take a slower, softer approach than I would have otherwise liked. Let's face it, it'd be pretty hard to run a power station if 50% of the workforce was dismissed in the same week. Alright, so let's just get back to the scenario where a leader has to choose how they behave according to their own set of values. There are three main drivers that I've seen which cause leaders to deviate from their stated values. The first is money, the second is the fear of conflict. And the third is a potential loss of standing. Money is a pretty obvious one. Some leaders have really strong values until it looks like upholding them is going to hit them in their own hip pocket, that is. I once worked for a CEO who would have said with a straight face that integrity was everything to him. But ultimately, hey, he really just loved his money. One year when we were coming to the end of a reporting period and it looked like we might miss our financial targets, he. He asked me, is there any way we can take some cost out of the P and L? For example, can we ask our major suppliers to have a billing holiday and resume on the 1st of July? Integrity clearly wasn't going to survive the magnetic attraction of the bonus pool. Fear of conflict is a little less obvious because it's easy to rationalize. One example is allowing terrible behavior from a so called high performer. You might espouse respect for others as one of your key values, but when it comes to a producer who you know is essential in getting results. It's a lot harder to step in and hold them to account for their behaviour. Talented jerks are normally pretty headstrong and it's often easier to just let them have their way. The third root cause is a loss of standing. Truth, honesty and transparency. To uphold any of these values means that occasionally you've got to take some risk. But what happens in a situation where upholding your values means that you're going to have to disagree with your boss? Often it's easier just to remain silent and not speak your mind. Over my corporate career, I got into hot water many times by being true to my views, which meant I had to disagree with a boss who was either very headstrong or dangerously insecure. But it wasn't going to stop me from doing it because it was important to me that I contributed my best. In one case, I remember telling a CEO that I thought his idea about how to manage a looming redundancy program was just dumb. So, yeah, you know, I was true to my values, but my execution left a lot to be desired. I probably created more backwash than I needed to while I was upholding my values of transparency and truth. Okay, so we have a bit of a dilemma. We have to stay as true to our own values as possible, no matter what the consequences. This makes a difference as to how we're seen by the people around us, and it's either going to strengthen or weaken our ability to build the culture we want. We know this is going to be hardest when we can see a clear personal toll on the horizon. When you find yourself in this situation, I'm sure you'll find it incredibly beneficial to deploy my three step process for holding firm to the values that you believe in. The first step is to recognise when you have a conflict between your professional values and the action you have to choose. Many leaders don't even think about it. They're driven by the emotion of the moment. And even without knowing it, they simply follow the path of least resistance. So the very first thing is to become more aware of these tension points. Now, assuming you recognise the conflict, the second step is to is to ask a threshold question. Are you compromising your values for personal reasons or for the good of the team and the company? In some of the examples I gave earlier, the biggest problem was the inability to shift the culture of the business. And sometimes that means you have to allow some tolerance levels around your closely held values. It becomes a judgment call as to how much rope you give people. But There's a big difference between being tolerant of other people's behaviours and because you know they're deeply rooted and are going to take some time to change, and abandoning your own values because it's convenient. If you're loosening one of your values for the good of the organization, well, okay. But you've got to be honest with yourself about whether that's genuinely the case, and if so, you have to be deliberate about it. If, on the other hand, you're just quietly departing from one of the values that you say you hold dear because of the personal risk and cost, well, you've probably got that wrong. If this is the case, you should move on to step three. And by the way, this is an awesome hack in your head. You have to pay the price up front. If you can manage to get your head around the fact that staying true to your values is going to have some sort of toll, and that it's worth paying that price to keep your values intact, then you're going to find it way easier to make the right decision when it counts. So ask yourself, what's the worst that can happen? If you can live with that, then you'll be very much at ease when you step into whatever difficult leadership work awaits. But if you're not happy to live with those consequences, then maybe you're fooling yourself about what your values really are. Look, no one's perfect. And even when it comes to your most cherished values, it's almost impossible to be consistent 100% of the time. So you need to be kind to yourself. But then again, if you routinely depart from your values, even if it's just through benign neglect, it can have a devastating effect on team culture and performance. Your people are going to see more clearly than you could possibly imagine that you can talk the talk, but you can't walk the walk. And that gives them the license to treat any values that you choose to espouse with casual disregard. Alright, so that brings us to the end of episode 370. I really hope you enjoyed it. But as I'm sure you know, listening is easy, leading is hard. That's why we created Leadership beyond the Theory, our flagship program that turns insight into action and action into results. This is where we unlock the secrets of elite leadership performance and give you the tools that you need to stay true to your values when it counts. I'm really looking forward to next week's episode, how to make your team's performance more predictable. Until then, I know you'll take every opportunity you can to be a no. Bullshit. It.