No Bullsh!t Leadership with Martin G Moore

Episode 375: Should Your People Have a Say in Big Change?
Date: November 4, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Martin G Moore tackles the perennial leadership dilemma: To what extent should you consult your people before making large-scale organizational changes? Responding to a listener question, Moore explores the practical realities, misconceptions, and best practices of change consultation, drawing on his extensive C-suite experience with both successful and failed processes. He offers clear-sighted advice, real-world examples, and wraps up with five actionable rules for leaders facing major transformation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Real Purpose and Value of Consultation (03:20–05:55)

• Why Consult?
  Moore underscores the importance of gathering substantive insight from people closest to the action: "You want to get the substantive decisions right, so it makes perfect sense that you seek input from the people who are closest to the action." (03:35)
• Consultation Isn't Easy:
  Leaders must discern whom to ask and what to ask—getting this wrong wastes time and effort.

2. Three Big Misconceptions About Consultation (05:55–09:15)

• Misconception 1: "You have to bring people along for the journey."
  Moore: "Well, no you don't. People join the journey at different stages..." (06:10)
• Misconception 2: "Everyone has to be given a chance to contribute."
  Moore: "Only ask those who might genuinely make a difference to the outcome." (07:00)
• Misconception 3: "You have to action all feedback given."
  Moore: "You can't change every little thing..." (07:45)

3. The Pros and Cons of Consultation (09:15–16:20)

• Pros:

  • Good Ideas Surface: Frontline employees may anticipate issues leaders overlook.
  • Engagement: People feel more committed when asked for input.
  • Talent Identification: Change exposes future leaders—those who rise above self-interest.

• Cons:

  • Unrealistic Expectations: People expect their suggestions will be adopted, leading to disappointment.
  • Slows the Process: Especially in large, unionized workplaces, consultation can be "bureaucratic, slow, and unwieldy." (13:32)
  • Can Demotivate: Poorly-managed—or superficial—consultation "makes people cynical and disinclined to do anything to help with the change." (15:05)

4. Real-World Examples: Four Change Consultation Processes (16:20–27:50)

a) MIM (Hostile Takeover, Minimal Consultation)

• "Consultants undertook a restructure of the IT department as a desktop exercise. There was no broad consultation..." (17:00)
• Moore had to "fight tooth and nail" against damaging proposals.
• Rating: 2/10

b) National Transport Insurance (Lean, Effective Process)

• Small company, focused consultation on key risks and key people.
• "People did a sensational job… despite a few implementation issues." (19:40)
• Rating: 9/10

c) Aurizon (IPO-Driven, Politics-Heavy, Disingenuous)

• "Everyone was jockeying for position and there was a real sense that backroom deals were being done..."
• "The consultation process felt disingenuous and the outcomes... were poor." (22:30)
• Rating: 4/10

d) CS Energy (Countercultural Change, Good Process, Unsustainable)

• Start strong: "Our consultation processes included a stepped walkthrough…we listened, we watched, and we worked to find better ways…" (24:10)
• Couldn’t sustain culture change after Moore’s departure: "If you can't sustain that beyond a single executive, the process was ultimately a failure."
• Rating: 6/10

5. Martin G Moore’s Five Rules for Effective Consultation (27:50–36:20)

1. Don't Deviate from the Prescribed Process
   • "You just have to consult… there’s no obligation for management to adopt the feedback that’s given."
2. Only Ask About Areas Open to Influence
   • "If you have absolutely no intention of changing something… don’t ask people to tell you what they think." (30:12)
3. Respond to Everything
   • "Whenever a comment is received… tell them how you’ve interpreted their feedback and why it is or isn’t adopted." (31:15)
4. Remember: The People Who Built the House Can’t Renovate It
   • Two key principles:
     1. People overestimate the risk of change, underestimate the risk of the status quo.
     2. Longtime employees may resist change to protect their position.
   • "If someone tells you something’s impossible, drill down into why—it could be a smokescreen or a real risk." (33:05)
5. Surface the Big Issues
   • "Identify big issues in advance and focus responses specifically on those… People are way less likely to get distracted with the rats and mice issues." (34:10)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Buy-in:
  "People typically join up for the journey at the right point." (06:26)
• On Disappointment:
  "Just think how demotivating it is when you're asked a question and then the person who asked it doesn't bother to listen to your answer." (15:16)
• On Real Consultation:
  "A lack of genuine consultation can come back to bite you in any number of ways." (36:10)
• Summing Up the Task:
  "Your goal as a leader is to optimize the outcomes from the change process. Anything that increases your chances of doing that deserves your full and undivided attention." (36:40)

Practical Takeaways

• Use consultation processes to extract value, not to appease everyone.
• Be honest and upfront—don’t pretend people have influence where they don’t.
• Focus on surfacing material issues, not minor gripes.
• Carefully balance speed, engagement, and risk.
• Genuine, two-way communication is the backbone of effective change consultation.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Pros & Cons of Consultation: 09:15–16:20
• Real-World Examples: 16:20–27:50
• Five Rules for Effective Consultation: 27:50–36:20

Tone and Style

Pragmatic, direct, and no-nonsense—Moore’s advice is grounded in C-suite realities and a clear-eyed understanding of organizational dynamics. His stories and rules are delivered with characteristic bluntness, focusing on what actually works.