Loading summary
Transcript64 lines
- [00:00]
A
Have you ever heard of leadership drift? It's basically where you're a leader, you have high standards, you're a high performer, and then over time a couple of your leadership standards just start to drop. And it could be for a whole bunch of reasons. Usually it's because you're really busy or you've got high performers who you can just kind of leave to get on with things. But that means that they're not getting the support that they need to really push to the next level and be challenged. That happened to me last year and I did a full leadership reset. So I want to share with you exactly what I did there. We're going to run a three session virtual workshop next week all about resetting the standard your team is operating to rebuilding accountability without micromanaging and just lifting that performance so you can get out of leadership drift and back into strong leadership. Grab your free spot@leadershipbeyondthetheory.com reset workshop. I'll make sure I put a link in the show notes of our latest episode. That's leadershipbeyondthetheory.com reset-workshop it starts on the 11th of February. I can't wait to see you there.
- [01:08]
B
When you start something new, whether it's a business, a project or a podcast, there's always that moment of doubt. Is this the right move? Is it actually going to work? Look, I've been there. And while the uncertainty never fully goes away, having the right systems in place makes a big difference. That's where Shopify comes in. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and it powers 10% of all E commerce in the US from established brands to people just getting started. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com leadership go to shopify.com leadership that's shopify.com leadership here's a weird thought. Most leaders don't struggle because they're bad at leadership. They struggle because leadership is the only critical job on the planet that people are expected to just sort of figure out. No training, no playbook, no feedback loop. So if you've ever thought I don't know what I don't know, well, that's probably not self doubt. That's the system working exactly as it was designed to work.
- [02:26]
A
Welcome to the no Bullshit Leadership Podcast. In a world where knowledge has become a commodity, this podcast is designed to give you something more access to the experience of a successful CEO who has already walked the path. So join your host, Martin Moore, who will unlock and bring to life your own leadership experience, experiences and accelerate your journey to leadership excellence.
- [02:49]
B
Hey there and welcome to episode 388 of the no Bullshit Leadership Podcast. This week's episode, the invisible gaps that Stall Leadership Growth. Now, Em's been doing a hell of a lot of work in the pre sales cycle for Leadership beyond the Theory, talking to leaders all over the world on the things that are causing them the most grief in their roles. And what she found is this common question. I don't know what I don't know. Well, what we do here at your CEO mentor and our Leadership beyond the Theory program is to let you know what you should know and where those gaps are. And we're going to fill them for you. So today's Q and A episode, Em's going to walk me through some of the things she's getting as feedback from leaders all over the world. And we're going to solve some of those problems or at least explore what you might need to do to get those gaps filled in your career. So let's get into it. Em, welcome back to the mic for a Q and A. It feels like it's been ages since we've done one of these.
- [03:46]
A
Well, it's probably because you had such a long, slow, relaxing holiday over the Christmas break.
- [03:54]
B
I don't think it was quite as long as it looked because I did get away for a few days. I had a few days in Queenstown and had my niece visiting from Boston. So we had a great time.
- [04:03]
A
But.
- [04:03]
B
But in between times, I'm sitting there trying to plow through the second edition of the book, which I'm rewriting at the moment. As you know. And of course, you know, our content doesn't stop. We're still every week, two episodes drop, drop, drop. So, yeah, trying to keep on top of things, but had a really good break. I feel refreshed. How about you?
- [04:19]
A
I don't feel refreshed at all because holidays with a toddler are just no bueno. I definitely feel as though I need a holiday from my holidays.
- [04:32]
B
Hang on, you're not having a go at my granddaughter, are you? That'll be enough of that.
- [04:36]
A
No, I absolutely am. But yeah, no, similar. We spent a lot of time with family and did all that kind of stuff, but it is just full on. I didn't get a moment over those three weeks to sit down and relax. So it was actually nice coming back to work and kind of getting into.
- [04:51]
B
It, chilling out at work. I love that.
- [04:54]
A
That's it. That's all I do. Chill out, put my feet up. We've got a lot happening this year, though. We're just about to kick off another Leadership beyond the Theory cohort. We've got a lot of new stuff that we're working on as well. So there'll be some new exciting, fun things for us to share with our community.
- [05:12]
B
Yeah, I'm super energized about that, particularly our super secret project that we've got running at the moment, which is going to be awesome.
- [05:18]
A
Yeah, I can't. We do have a code name for it, but I've completely forgotten. But Marty, look, for this Q and A episode, I really wanted to hit into a specific, specific issue that I've been hearing a lot. I mentioned a while back in a podcast episode Q and A that we did that I've been on the Leadership beyond the Theory sales call round robin for a while. So for those of you who are new to our podcast, Leadership beyond the Theory is our nine week online leadership program. And I was out of the sales calls for quite a few years and about a year ago I started getting back into them because they just really energized me. I love talking to leaders in the community about what challenges they're having, what they're struggling with, what they're doing really well. It just kind of, I suppose it keeps me grounded to what our people really need.
- [06:07]
B
Yeah, that's what you call staying close to the customer. I love it.
- [06:10]
A
Yeah. And it feels good for me. I really enjoy the calls. Every call I get on it ends up going way longer than it should because I'm like, what about this? And what about this? And there's this podcast episode. So sorry for those people who have accidentally got me on the round robin chatting to me for half an hour instead of 15 minutes. But yeah, so this episode, I think one of the things that I've really noticed and like, I've been taking these calls, let's say, on and off for seven years. Right. One of the things that I'm hearing more now than I ever have is I don't know what I don't know. Oh, so, Marnie, I wanted to bring this to you. I wanted to bring this one to you because, like, why do you think that that is so widespread, even among very capable leaders?
- [06:58]
B
It's sort of weird, Em, because I think that one of the things that sits behind this don't know what I don't know principle is that we don't get trained for Leadership, it's the only critical job that you can step into with zero formal training. And the only way to do it is to learn from what you've seen others do. It's a little bit like parenting in that regard. So we tend to, you know, before we get mature and wise and, you know, learn our own lessons, we tend to parent the way we were parented and we tend to lead the way we were led. So if your previous bosses were, you know, very average, mediocre, if they were chaotic, if they were absent, you know, that's going to start to feel normal to you after a while. If you were micromanaged, you know, there's a pretty high chance that you'll be a micromanager too, just because you're going to mimic what you learned from your boss. And the danger isn't just incompetence, it's getting a false sense of security. A lot of execs I worked with over the years were super smart and great in their technical field, but they were awful leaders and their teams were inefficient and they were underutilized and the people were unmotivated and they didn't even know that that's what they were doing from their leadership style.
- [08:06]
A
That's scary. But I do completely agree with that. Yeah. And I think, interestingly, a lot of the people who I speak to are actually like, they're doing pretty well. Their teams are fine. You know, not many people go, I have a high performing team. Typically, nothing's in a blazing inferno. Why does doing fine often hide the biggest blind spots for leaders?
- [08:32]
B
It's interesting. It's not very often that you run around with your hair on fire. Most of the time it's just things chucking away. And interestingly, most organizations are incredibly resilient to poor leadership and to bad decisions and to having an underutilized workforce because the numbers and the scale just mask all of that inefficiency that's going on. And when you've got stability and predictability, even if it's really mediocre in terms of performance, it can feel like it's going okay.
- [09:00]
A
Yeah.
- [09:01]
B
Now, leaders tend to confuse the absence of problems with the presence of excellence.
- [09:06]
A
Or Marty, say that again. That's a mic drop. I want you all to write that one down.
- [09:12]
B
Yeah, I'll say that again. Leaders confuse the absence of problems with the presence of excellence, and it's simply not the case. The classic high performing team, like a lot of people think that it's about having a team where there's no conflict and there's widespread consensus on most issues. People agree. That couldn't be further from the truth. Teams adapt really quickly to weak systems and low standards. And as a leader, you've got to be constantly calibrating the performance of the team against the standard you're trying to set. And this is done, funnily enough, on a person by person basis. Like this is tricky. There are as many permutations and combinations of the outcomes here as there are humans with different emotions and backgrounds and expectations. And so it takes attention and effort to stay on top of the actual performance as opposed to the potential performance. Normally there's a huge amount of upside that's just not being able to be captured.
- [10:07]
A
Yeah.
- [10:07]
B
But you don't feel any pain until something exposes it. So whether you scale up or whether there's some sort of external event, something has to come to make the team feel those cracks and for those cracks to appear and then for the lead to have to do something about it. But you can trot along happily for a really long time and not even notice that your team isn't performing. And I guess one other complication, I mean, I'm talking about competitive businesses there. But even worse is that many organisations are insulated from competitive forces, so any decline into underperformance won't be obvious at all to the leader. And the leaders can tell any story they like about their team's performance.
- [10:46]
A
Yeah. Marty, can you give us some. I don't know, just some really concrete examples of what this might look like? So.
- [10:53]
B
Sure. So many leaders who don't have any pressure that's being brought externally simply won't bring the pressure themselves to their team. For example, many leaders won't bring accountability when someone on their team isn't performing. If you've got someone who's not doing their job, then what you should be doing is stepping there and saying, hang on a minute, here's the standard we're setting. Here's the job you're being paid to do and I need you to do it. What do you need from me in terms of support? How can I help you to do that and how can I help you to be successful? But ultimately, you've got to meet me halfway and you've got to be there in a situation that says, I'm prepared to do my job, I'm going to try as hard as I can and I'm going to get the result that you need for me to be a productive team member in this role. But instead, many leaders will Just rationalize and make excuses for the individuals and avoid the need to address it. And if nothing's blowing up and if nothing's immediately in their face that says, you know, this isn't good enough, we're going to be under stress here, or we're going to face a problem, then you can just ignore it and not action it. Equally, leaders who don't have a lot of strength are going to find it hard to keep their talented jerks in line. So, you know, the talented jerks, when you've got people who are really capable, very bright, do a good job, but everyone hates working with them and they have behavioral issues, but a leader has to bring that into line. You can't let the culture be destroyed by a talented jerk, you know, or you've got to be strong enough to say no to those irrational thought bubbles that your boss comes out with occasionally, which somehow seem to result in more work for the team. If you can't push back on that, then you're going to swamp your team with work that doesn't take them anywhere. So just because your team is delivering something and there aren't a lot of skirmishes for you to referee, there aren't a lot of problems coming up. It doesn't mean that your leadership is effective, and it doesn't mean the team is performing anywhere near its potential.
- [12:39]
A
Yeah, there are so many golden nuggets in what you've just said in these first, whatever it is, nine minutes. I really want people to reflect on this. You know, the last. The last piece that you just said about, you know, it doesn't mean your leadership effect is effective, and it doesn't mean that your team is performing anywhere near its potential. Like, imagine what the potential upside could be for your team and your people and what results that they could get.
- [13:08]
B
Yeah. And I think. I think that's one of the biggest things about what we do is that we say, you know, things might be chugging along, all right, and you might be in a crisis, but you're leaving a lot of value on the table. So you've got to find a way to get that value out. And if you can, you'll find that you outperform pretty much every other team around.
- [13:25]
A
Absolutely. And those are the people that get promoted. I think it's pretty fair to say that most people haven't actually had an exceptional boss. And I know that, you know, just anecdotally, from speaking to thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of leaders over the years, what does that actually cost them as leaders? Not having that exceptional boss to be able to model their own leadership on.
- [13:50]
B
Yeah, it's interesting because you can't replicate what you've never seen, Right? But despite that, you'll probably sense that something is missing. And even when you try and replicate your previous bosses, you'll try and replicate their good parts and not replicate their bad parts, which is a pretty hit and miss process. But most leaders feel a little bit uncomfortable, at least in some of the key areas of leadership. For example, they may struggle with conflict or they might find themselves hesitating on really big decisions. If your boss was a command and control leader who relied on the power of his title, then that's going to be hard to replicate, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to. I think what tends to happen, though, is that people replicate the leadership behaviours that they've seen and that they feel are sort of reasonable. And then the really keen ones read a few books or listen to a few podcasts, as you all are now, and they build the motivation and inspiration to be better without actually understanding what that looks like in practice. So leaders, you know, they get promoted for technical skill, not leadership ability. And when people cobble together styles from multiple imperfect bosses, they end up with a leadership fingerprint that is unique to them, but it's a little bit hit and miss.
- [15:02]
A
We had a great episode, I think it was about a month ago, on building your leadership identity. I'll put that in the show notes, because for any of you who are kind of going, well, what is my leadership fingerprint? You'll probably want to go through that. We've got some great resources there. I want to get really practical here, Marty. If someone is listening to this episode and going, okay, what might I actually be missing? Where should they look first? Because remember, we're trying to answer the question, how do I know what I don't know?
- [15:34]
B
Yeah, exactly. Well, I think clarity on how to generate higher performance from the team is the starting point. So you've got to understand and focus on value. And this means not just doing activity for its own sake or doing things that sound like they're a good idea at the time. I'm talking about really understanding, if I put resources into this thing over here, here's what I'm going to get at the back end. Here's the result that I'm going to get and being able to trace the value from the point of investment of resources right through to the recovery of benefits. So a lot of teams just work hard to deliver the wrong things. And they pat themselves on the back and they do a really good, really, really good job of that. But unless you have a really good understanding of what good looks like, then you're always going to be underdone. Another very, very clear theme is decision quality. So if you avoid decisions or even if you over consult on decisions, they're both equally bad. You start confusing consensus with performance. So in this day and age, we think that we need to include everyone and give everyone their say and, you know, everyone's got an opinion and they'll tell you what it is, even if they have no accountability for the outcome that that opinion generates. And so finding the accountable person and making sure that they are the ones who are making decisions and consulting appropriately with the right experts, that works really well. But you know, if you don't get good at making decisions, then this hesitation becomes a real thorn in your side because it damages your confidence. If you, if you vacillate and freeze on major decisions, it's really going to damage who you are as a leader. And, you know, the accountability mechanics here are quite important. So, you know, clarity in your mind isn't enough. Accountabilities for who's doing what and who's making which decisions has to be crystal clear. And if you don't have that accountability, then standards will gradually slide and you'll end up going and rescuing everyone instead of developing them and putting them to task on the things they should be working on. Let me give you one more, which I think super, super common is operating at the wrong level. So because you're not trained as leaders properly, you're going to feel a little bit uncomfortable in that leadership role. And so it's going to give you an incentive and a little bit of a tendency to be dragged back down to a lower level to the level you've come from, because that's where you feel comfortable, that's where you know you can add some value, and that's where other people look around and say, gee, you're really good at your job. Whereas as a leader you may not be that good at your job. So senior leaders doing junior people's work, I mean, you're just overpaid for your job, so you've got to do the job you're paid to do. You want to make sure that you're trying to make yourself redundant instead of making yourself indispensable. The best leaders are the ones who build teams who can operate without them. So when I'm not around, I want my team to be able to still produce and still demonstrate great performance even though I'm nowhere near them. And building a team like that is a really, really different type of team. And if you're operating at the wrong level, you're just going to be building up your workload. You'll be doing your job and other people's jobs and you're just going to end up with burnout. But you'll tell yourself that it's noble and that you're always getting the job done and that you're the person who delivers and that you're just a committed employee. What you're actually doing is self destructive.
- [18:54]
A
That's a really hard one for people to get their heads around, especially the feeling indispensable instead of effective.
- [19:01]
B
Totally.
- [19:02]
A
That's a big one that we, that we try and break down. It's, it's really a mindset shift than anything else. We've also got an awesome free tool, the blind spot tool, where you answer a bunch of questions completely free and it gives you a rating for each key area where your leadership blind spots might be. I highly recommend doing that. You can do that at Bit Lee Leadership blindspot. I'll put a link in the show notes, but if you haven't done the blind spot test yet, you absolutely must. It is, it's just brilliant for being able to focus in on those things that you might not be able to see yourself.
- [19:40]
B
That's awesome. Haven't seen a bitly link for ages. Bit ly Leadership blindspot. Awesome, guys. Go get it.
- [19:48]
A
It's easier than the full URL. So I don't know.
- [19:51]
B
I know it is. It's good. I like it. No, I love it. I love a bitly link.
- [19:54]
A
Nice. So Marty, what is the long term cost if leaders are never able to close these gaps? Because this is, I think this is where I'm seeing a lot of people at the moment.
- [20:06]
B
The biggest problem with having gaps that you don't close is you may not even ever realize that the gaps exist. Now let me explain. The biggest risk is you're just going to get stuck because your career is going to plateau for no apparent reason. The chances are, remember we're talking about your boss who's not a great leader. Chances are that your boss is not going to tell you that those gaps exist. You're not going to get that timely targeted feedback that you would expect. They're just going to tell you that you're doing a great job. And then when they don't promote you, they'll either tell you that you're too valuable in your current role or they'll say something else like, better luck next time. You're doing a great job. It's just that, you know, Emma was exceptional. We had to promote her. The board loves her. If it was up to me, I would have selected you. All this sort of shit, right?
- [20:52]
A
So frustrating because it's not useful.
- [20:56]
B
That's right. It's not useful at all. So in the absence of really useful targeted feedback, you may not even know your gaps are there. Which is why the leadership blind spot tool that you just spoke about is so important. It's absolutely critical. And the other thing is that your team's just sort of always going to be a little underdone. The performance is going to be mediocre. You won't know why. You'll convince yourself and kid yourself that the performance is really, really top notch. But if you were to take any objective measure, you'll find there are teams out there that are doing this the right way and that your team is going to be languishing behind. You'll be frequently blindsided by unexpected problems. The team's going to miss important deadlines and you won't even get warning that the deadlines are going to be missed because they're not tracking it well enough. In the worst cases, people just become entitled and uncooperative, which is not particularly useful. Your leaders are going to feel constantly tired, but they won't feel as though they're achieving anything meaningful or worthwhile. And this is really soul destroying if you're working really hard and doing a lot of things but you're not hitting your runs. And so this is what happens with teams that don't perform particularly well. The team will have very little innovation and there'll be no chance of getting discretionary effort out of them. So, you know, most leadership failure is, isn't dramatic, it's just slow and it's quiet and it's invisible and it's going to kill your career.
- [22:19]
A
Oh, that just is so upsetting.
- [22:23]
B
I know, it's so true though. I've seen it so many times.
- [22:26]
A
Yeah, just the fact that you, you can't see a lot of these things unless you are really attuned to looking for them. And that's what I wanted out of this episode. I wanted everyone to look, you know, inside and have that self awareness, to really start asking the hard questions. So I think.
- [22:43]
B
But if you don't know, if you don't know what you don't know, that is really, really hard.
- [22:47]
A
Yeah, that's why?
- [22:47]
B
You've got to have some sort of system to measure up against and say, am I doing this? How good am I at that? How will I solve this problem? And that's the only way you're going to get enough reflective, holistic feedback to be able to identify your blind spots yourself. In the absence of a good leader above you, who's taking care of that 100%.
- [23:05]
A
And so I think the real issue isn't I'm not a good leader anymore. It's probably more like I've just never been shown what exceptional leadership actually looks like.
- [23:17]
B
Yeah, I think that's a pretty fair statement. And, you know, fortunately, I had a lot of trial and error and made a lot of mistakes with other people's money, which was sort of handy to.
- [23:27]
A
Work all of this out of this business.
- [23:28]
B
Yeah, it was very handy for you. So, final thoughts, I guess leadership is a profession, and every bit as much as being a doctor or a lawyer is a profession, it should take as much attention to detail and as much learning as any of those professions do. But we typically treat it with casual disregard. Lack of training, lack of mentoring, lack of direction. We just really don't give it the attention we should. But there's no shame in not knowing how to lead. There is shame in not trying to improve. So when you start off like, you can expect to be really bad. I was. Everyone was when they started. But the only sin is if you just decide to ignore that and stay where you are and bumble along, because your people deserve better. And the best leaders stay curious. Right? They don't get defensive, they just do what they can do to get better and they don't shy away from the work that's going to make that possible.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah, I think, Marty, you know that I always like to bring the podcast back to your lived experience. So before we wrap up, is there anything that you can share about your own career? Any point in time where you felt like you didn't have those tools or you didn't have the boss above you that was really gonna, you know, unearth your blind spots?
- [24:47]
B
It's a good question, Em, because I think I've lived constantly in that mode as I saw my mistakes unfold over the years. When I was learning how to become a leader, I never felt comfortable. I always felt like I was missing something and I always felt like I wasn't a good enough leader for the people I had in my team. And that was triggered very, very early in probably one of my first leadership roles, where I realised that I Wasn't good enough to get the most out of my people. So I became a leader.
- [25:13]
A
Even when you're a CEO?
- [25:14]
B
No, no, no, no. By the time I got there, I really had it nailed. So my executive career, gradually I work my way through it. But I'm talking about, you know, as a project manager in the late 80s and early 90s.
- [25:24]
A
How many years did it take you to get that confidence?
- [25:28]
B
I think the progression that we talk about, which is the most useful framework for me to look through, is the going from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence. So you know that you start with unconscious incompetence. I'm not competent, and I know so little that I don't even know I'm not competent. And then you have conscious incompetence, which is I'm incompetent. And now I know I'm incompetent. And I know I've got to do some work if I don't want to be incompetent. That's where I started, sort of as a leader in the 80s and 90s. I could see where I was and I knew I was incompetent. But then I had to build it up so that I was consciously competent, which means I'm a competent leader. But I've got to struggle and focus on this every single day because I need to be thinking about this all the time. And then eventually I got to the stage, which I'll probably say was only my last few executive roles. And so CEO role, where I felt as though I was unconsciously competent. It was part of me. The things I was doing were just a natural part of who I was in my routine. And it was. I didn't even have to think about it anymore because that's who I was and that's how I did things. But that only happened because I'm a student of the human condition. I'm constantly evaluating how effective I am in different situations. And I'm always coming up with ideas and techniques to improve my performance. And I did the work. I did everything I could to fill those gaps. So I read all of the leadership and business classics. I got great mentors. I got myself a high quality mba. I went to the top executive program at Harvard Business School. And I just remained constantly curious. But, you know, there are still times when I'm sure I don't know what I don't know.
- [27:04]
A
I don't know. Marty, you can always answer my questions. So I think you probably, probably know a lot more than you think you do by this stage. But I do want to bring this all together because everything that we've talked about today is exactly why Leadership beyond the Theory exists. We've taken what you've learned over your entire career, leading at the very top, pressure tested it in the real world, and then refined it year after year based on the lived challenges of thousands of leaders who have been through the program.
- [27:34]
B
So.
- [27:34]
A
So if you're still sitting there thinking, I don't know what I don't know, this is the program that removes that feeling. There's no 2.0 version. There's no CEO track, mid level track, or extension modules like this is it. This is the leadership operating system that you need and you can use for your entire career. Whether you're leading one person or hundreds, you will come back to this framework again and again because it always applies. And the beautiful thing is you don't finish this program wondering what to do next. You finish knowing how to think, how to decide, how to lead conversations, and how to get the best out of people without second guessing yourself. And I think, probably most importantly, you stop searching. You're not looking for any more silver bullets. There's no jumping between podcast books, leadership theories, and just hoping that something one day is going to click. This gives you the structure and the confidence to lead well, consistently and in the real world. So if something in this episode has landed for you, go and check out Leadership beyond the Theory. Our next cohort starts on March 9th, and this is also the last cohort we're doing at two and a half thousand dollars, Marty, before we increase the price, because we haven't done that for seven years and it's probably about time. But look, honestly, what you get out the back end is just ridiculous value. So you can head to leadership beyond the theory.com and jump on the waitlist. You know, really, if leadership matters to you and you want to feel clear and capable and confident moving forward, then this is the place to start. Okay, Marty, great Q and A today. Why don't you take us out?
- [29:11]
B
Thanks, Em. All right, so that brings us to the end of episode 388. I really hope you enjoyed it. But as I'm sure you know, listening is easy. Leading is hard. That's why we created Leadership beyond the Theory that Em was just talking about. It's our flagship program that turns insight into action and action into results. This is where we unlock the secrets of elite leadership performance and give you the tools that you need to answer that question. What don't I know? I'm looking forward to next week's episode where we're going to give you an inside look into our three day leadership Reset workshop. Until then, I know you'll take every opportunity you can to be a no bullshit SA.