Loading summary
Transcript41 lines
- [00:00]
A
When you start something new, whether it's a business, a project or a podcast, there's always that moment of doubt. Is this the right move? Is it actually going to work? Look, I've been there. And while the uncertainty never fully goes away, having the right systems in place makes a big difference. That's where Shopify comes in. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and it powers 10% of all E commerce in the US from established brands to people just getting started. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com leadership go to shopify.com leadership that's shopify.com leadership most decisions you make as a leader look reasonable on the whiteboard. But in the real world, you're rarely deciding between black and white options. You're choosing between two things that both matter and something has to give. That's the dilemma, and how you handle it speaks volumes about the kind of leader you really are.
- [01:12]
B
Welcome to the no Bullshit Leadership Podcast. In a world where knowledge has become a commodity, this podcast is designed to give you something more access to the experience experience of a successful CEO who has already walked the path. So join your host, Martin Moore, who will unlock and bring to life your own leadership experiences and accelerate your journey to leadership excellence.
- [01:35]
A
Hey there and welcome to episode 397 of the no Bullshit Leadership Podcast. This week's episode the leadership trade offs that make or break teams. Leadership would be easier if every decision had an obvious answer. But the higher you go, the more you find yourself navigating situations where two legitimate priorities are pulling in opposite directions. Raise the performance bar or protect your weaker team members. Stay the course on a decision or cut your losses and change direction. The ability to make trade offs confidently separates average leaders from truly great ones. And there are no hard and fast rules. In this Q and A episode, Em and I are going to break down six of the most common and the most consequential trade offs that leaders face. What makes this conversation different is that it's not just about finding the perfect answer. It's about developing the leadership instincts to make better calls faster and to not waste time second guessing them after the fact. Because in most cases, a good decision made quickly will outperform a perfect decision made too late. And with external pressures like economic uncertainty and rising costs adding yet another layer of complexity, the ability to think clearly through competing priorities has never been more important. Em, welcome back to the mic. It's been a while since we've been on the podcast together. What, probably a couple of months at least.
- [03:07]
B
Yeah. It goes so quickly, but you have absolutely delivered some bangers over the last couple of weeks. I don't know, I just thought I'd. Thought I'd just come in and, you know, when we were discussing this podcast episode, I thought this one just really lends itself to more of a discussion rather than another epic Marty monologue. So, yep, you've got me again for an episode.
- [03:30]
A
All right, well, why don't you tee off?
- [03:33]
B
All right, let's go. So I've got six questions here that are taken from a few different sources. So Instagram, DMs, our no bullshit leadership hub on school, school, and recurring topics from members of our no Bullshit Leaders club. There's a lot in here. We're going to unpack quite a bit and cover a lot of ground. So let's kick off with question one. First question, how do you continue to lift the performance benchmark in your team without just leaning harder on your best people? Because what I see a lot is that the stronger performers, they end up getting all the work and then over time, they just get sick and tired of doing the heavy lifting and resulting in burnout a lot of the time. So how should leaders be thinking about that balance between raising standards, protecting their top talent, and still delivering for the business? Because that's obviously the ultimate goal, is to deliver value for the organization.
- [04:26]
A
For sure. Em. And it's just a fact of life that your top people are always going to be your best producers. That's just a fact of life. Now, you might recall an episode I did last year. It was episode 315, getting the best from your stars. And in that I spoke about some McKinsey research that found that your rare talent produces up to eight times more than your average team member. That's. That's enormous. Right? And we think about sometimes there might be a, you know, 20 or 30% difference, but eight times more is absolutely phenomenal.
- [05:01]
B
Yeah.
- [05:02]
A
And the interesting thing is because they are your rare talent, you're really high performers. They're happy to do it as long as they reap the rewards. They get the recognition, they get the pay rises and they get the promotions. But you can't abuse the privilege of having a star working for you. So there's a few things that are going to make a difference. There are some do's and some don'ts around this stuff. The do's are that you have to show the whole team that you're serious about performance. You don't just lean on those stars and let them do all the heavy lifting. As you said, there's got to be this minimum acceptable standard. And once you've got that standard set, you've got to hold everyone to account for their performance. You can't let anyone slip below that low watermark. You can't make exceptions, particularly for people who are making individual choices. And, you know, you might find a situation where someone is new and they're still getting their feet and they're not quite performing up to the standard you want yet. But that's got to happen over time and they've got to be in a position where they can operate independently and without your constant intervention and without having them supported by the people around them who do the heavy lifting on their behalf. And when you're trying to manage the difference between these really talented people and people who aren't cutting it, you've got to develop pathways for your talent that they can progress and they've got to know about that. And you've got to be ruthless about removing the passengers, because otherwise the whole standard slips. Some of the don'ts, of course, well, you. You don't step in and do the work yourself. Like, you don't overcompensate or over function for the people who aren't doing their jobs. You don't overload the producers, you've got to stretch them, but you don't overload them and you don't treat everyone the same. It's not a socialist collective. You've got to differentiate between your people. I'm going to talk a little bit more about that later on.
- [06:54]
B
Yeah, awesome, Marty. Let's go on to question two. So how do you think about assigning accountability when effectiveness and fairness aren't the same thing? Because there's always going to be that tension between giving someone an opportunity for development versus giving the work to the person who you know is absolutely going to deliver. So at what point do you actually prioritize outcomes over development? And then how do you handle that without disengaging the rest of the team? This is a really tricky one.
- [07:23]
A
Yeah, it is a tricky one, but I think the underlying principle is that you always have to get the job done the best way, and in doing so, you've got to consider what it means for your team in the longer term. So, yes, I have to get the outcome now, but how do I use it as an opportunity to either test out my talent to see who's who, or to Stretch someone who I know is really good. This is one of the most important principles in performance. It's differentiation. And the only thing you should differentiate on is performance, nothing else. So we're told we have to treat everyone equally, right? Which is fine in principle, but it's easy to get confused as to what that actually means. As a leader, you've got to give your people equality of opportunity, but that's very different from trying to equalize the outcomes. So I know a lot of leaders who try to be fair to their people. They try to give everyone the same opportunities to get the same results, but the world doesn't work that way. And when people aren't putting the effort or they're not lifting to meet the standard, then you can't keep giving them the opportunities that should go to the people who are willing to do it. So everyone has to be given the chance to excel in their role. And that means they have to be given the guidance, the support and the resources they need to do their job successfully. But not everyone deserves equal face time with you. If you're leading well, your attention is a performance accelerator. So you have to focus where you generate the biggest bang for buck. It's not about being fair, it's about optimizing your outcomes. So you need to spend 80% of your time with your best people. Don't just let the squeaky wheel get the oil. The most challenging, critical assignments have to be entrusted to your top performers. So, you know, it may seem to everyone else that your best people are being favored with the prime tasks. And yes, that's exactly what you need to do if you're fortunate enough to have someone on your team with rare talent. Love them, nurture them, pay them, give them the best assignments, but don't let them rest on their laurels. You've got to stretch them too and demand more from them and help them to reach their ultimate potential, which is Stella.
- [09:36]
B
Oh, that's such a mic drop. I want every single person to listen to that a couple of times. All right, question three. How do you deal with senior leaders who just don't buy in, especially when they're influential? So they might have quite a strong voice in the organization and they're essentially resisting a shift towards, I don't know, let's say, a value driven way of working. So this has come from someone who's trying to implement module one, deliver value in leadership beyond the theory. How do you navigate that without it turning into politics or just becoming something that stalls the whole organization?
- [10:12]
A
Yeah, really good Question. I'm assuming we're talking about senior leaders who report into you because it's different whether it's that or senior leaders above you in the hierarchy.
- [10:22]
B
I think. Can we touch on both?
- [10:26]
A
We can briefly. Yeah, yeah. So if it's senior leaders above you in the hierarchy, it's pretty tricky. We've got a podcast episode which deals specifically with giving upwards feedback and that's a really interesting episode that we'll leave a link to in the show. Notes. Yeah, it's not easy because it depends on the relationship, it depends on your standing, it depends on whether or not you're clever enough to give feedback on the the event or the observation without making it personal to your boss who might react quite poorly. So you don't want to be doing this career limiting move thing all over the place, but when you've got a lack of buy in, you've got to demonstrate your performance. If your boss doesn't buy into what you're doing, the only way you can get that to change is by creating credibility and earning the right to have the conversation. And you only do that by posting the results. So until you've posted the results, you've got nothing to talk about. Now that sounds a bit harsh, but that's the way the world works. And if you try doing it any other way, you may step on a landmine. So it's important to not step on a landmine when you're trying to get some change.
- [11:35]
B
Yeah.
- [11:36]
A
I think the more common cases that people who are reporting to you don't buy into change that you're trying to bring in. And it's typically people who've been in the company for a long time who are resistant to change. I did a podcast episode on this a little more recently, probably late last year, called Learning from the Lifers. Don't repeat Their Mistakes. And that's really about how you deal with the old and bold who've been in the company for really long time and you're trying to get some change. So why do people resist change so much when you're trying to do something new in the team or in the company? And there's a few reasons, right. The first is they've normally managed to accumulate a bunch of power and status over time. They become opinion leaders and other people follow what they say. Change often threatens this personal position they've built up for themselves. And the only way they know how to handle that is to indulge in this passive aggressive behavior. That means that you know they're gonna nod and smile to you, but they're gonna go away and undermine everything you've asked them to do. So this is the white anting thing that happens so frequently. We even used to have an expression for that. It's a little bit vulgar, but we used to say that's grin fuck, which means they smile to your face and then the minutes turn around, they flip you the bird. So you don't want to be. You don't want to be tolerating. Grin fuck.
- [13:02]
B
I like it.
- [13:03]
A
So the do's and don'ts here, it's a pretty cool expression. It's a little bit vulgar, but it really speaks and paints a picture, doesn't it? So there's some do's and don'ts here in terms of the do's. Like, don't assume that someone's not going to get on board. So give them an opportunity. Make sure they know that not changing is not an option. Like, it's really important they understand that from the get go. Be really clear on what they need to do differently in terms of their standards and, and the things they focus on and the results they achieve. And watch them closely. You've got to judge them on their merits. Not just listening to what they say, but watching what they do, what you don't want to do. You don't want to cut them too much slack. You don't want to confuse their clear behavioral choices with innocent mistakes because you can give them too much of the benefit of the doubt. Don't be afraid to let someone go if they won't get on board, because that's their choice, not yours. You just have to watch the scoreboard and act accordingly. And don't wait too long to make that decision. Like, you'll hesitate because you'll be afraid of losing organizational knowledge. And they'll play on that fear mercilessly. They'll hoard their knowledge and they'll try and make you afraid of the fact that if you lose them, things will fall apart. Almost never happens. They'll try to make you think they're indispensable, but no one is. And in most cases, the risk of losing their knowledge is. Is massively outweighed by the risk of them derailing the positive change you're trying to make. So why would you hold back a whole team just because one or two opinion leaders don't want to get on board? I have never regretted letting someone go who was resisting unnecessary change. And I've never worked with another leader who regretted making a similar decision. It's that Simple.
- [14:49]
B
Well, that's a pretty firm recommendation, Marty. So I think people will be taking this seriously.
- [14:56]
A
You know, I like to say em, when it comes to me getting older, I'm less certain about almost everything. But there's some things I'm pretty convinced about and that's one of them.
- [15:04]
B
Yeah, yeah. Sage advice. All right, let's go on to question four. How do you know when it's time to stay the course versus course? Correct. Let's say that you've put a strategy in place, you've done the work, but you're starting to see weaknesses or things not playing out as expected. At what point do you push through instead of stepping back and changing direction? And how do you avoid organizations getting stuck in analysis process without actually taking action? This is such a meaty one. This is where you know when we're talking about trade offs that make or break teams like this is it, right?
- [15:37]
A
Totally, totally. And this is, this is a really tricky one because you've got to go back to how you've made a decision in the first place. Now of course, you know, in leadership beyond the theory, we do these eight attributes of a great decision. What is it that actually makes a great decision? You never really know until you look back in retrospect and see what's happened as a result of your decision. But if you tick these eight boxes on the way through, you can be pretty certain that the decision you make is going to be sound. And one of those eight attributes is speed. And speed is so underrated. But you've got to get in your head the fact that your decisions don't need to be perfect, they need to be roughly right. How and when you adjust depends on the gravity and the potential impact of the decision you're making. So if it's a high level strategic decision that influences the performance of the whole business, make the call, but monitor it really closely. You've got to scan the horizon constantly and adjust as you go. You're looking to either prove or disprove your assumptions until you're confident the decision's been a good one. And even when you're pretty confident, you need to revisit the decision occasionally to make sure that it's still doing what you need it to do. For less critical decisions, you know it's not as important. Make them quickly, have a look at the outcomes, but just adjust as you go. Some decisions are reversible and some decisions aren't. So just make sure you know which is which. And given the appropriate level of governance and oversight and Pressure testing and that the situation demands.
- [17:17]
B
That's such a good one, Marty. Okay, let's go on to number five. We're trying to make this, this a, you know, short, sharp, rapid fire episode. So I'm pushing you through these, but you're, you're keeping up.
- [17:28]
A
I think that ship has sailed already.
- [17:30]
B
We're not going too badly. I think you're, I think you're, we're doing okay.
- [17:34]
A
Right? Let's, let's push on.
- [17:35]
B
Number five, how should leaders think about balancing priorities when everything feels important? You've got your strategic initiatives, you've got unplanned executive requests coming in, and then you've got the day to day running of the business. What's the right way to think about trade offs there so teams don't end up scattered, reactive, and ultimately burning out without moving the dial?
- [17:56]
A
Well, this is sort of at the center of everything because we're talking about value and we're talking about building a work program around the most valuable outcomes and a lot of companies simply don't know how to do that. So I think starting with zero based budgets is a really good way to start. And the annual process is probably your first, best bet for making sure that, you know, valueless activity does not make it onto the agenda. You've got to understand profoundly which things you do that contribute most to the success of the company and you've got to focus on those things almost exclusively. Now the trouble is budgets build empires and so people are very, very interested in making sure their budget doesn't slide. So you don't want to cut resources and you don't want to cut budgets, but you do want to apply them to the places where they're most effective. Now our value ranking process is probably the thing that gives you the best opportunity to understand all the potential options for how you apply your resources and where the best outcomes are from that. But it's a real discipline and you've got to go through it and be really clear on this is number one, this is number two, this is number three. So that when all of this crap flows down from up top, you can make a really good judicious assessment of where it might fit in the pecking order of value creation. And still some bosses aren't going to be interested in hearing that. So you'll have weak bosses who just simply can't say no to their boss above them and they'll just say yes to anything that comes down and expect you to find a way to do it without giving you the appropriate Resources. Then you'll have Nike bosses who just want to command and control and tell you to just do it. No matter what it is, just do it. I don't want to hear about it, just do it. And you've got to learn how to say no without actually saying no. And the way to do that is by making sure you've got a very, very clear plan that says here are all the things that we're doing to create value, here's the order we're doing them in, here's how we're using our resources and if something else comes onto the pile, fantastic. We'll re evaluate. But do you want us to either give up or put at risk one of these high value opportunities? Because it's someone's, you know, thought bubble of the day and I think without the discipline of having value ranking, it's really hard to do that. With a value ranked list that has your work program prioritized and ranked properly, the conversation becomes much easier because it's a conversation about facts, not about feelings.
- [20:34]
B
Such a good point. And you know, we've got a cohort of leadership on the theory happening at the moment and they've just finished module one, deliver value and going through the 10 steps of effective value ranking. And you can already see people going, yep, cool, okay, now I actually know how to talk to my boss about, you know, what I, what I need to get after and what the work program needs to look like for my team underneath me. So that is such an important process to actually get right before you can push back. Otherwise, yeah, you are going to burn people out. And what is it that you say about people burning out?
- [21:08]
A
Yes, people, people burn out when they're doing work. That is just frustration when they, when they're doing work they know doesn't contribute or make any difference and they're just forced to toil endlessly to no avail. It's so demoralizing and it's all soul destroying.
- [21:25]
B
Effy. Such a tricky one, balancing those priorities. Okay, let's go to question number six is our last one. And this is, this is very topical. So this is one that I really wanted to put in here. When external pressures hit, like rising fuel prices, dealing with at the moment broader economic uncertainty, what are you actually seeing strong businesses do? Because there's always pressure to do something for employees, but at the same time the business still has to perform. How do good leaders balance that tension between supporting their people and maintaining commercial discipline?
- [22:03]
A
Yes, this is very topical and it's a very important trade off because, you know, a lot of companies behave badly at times like this. They see an opportunity and they start gouging. And that's not a good look. But, you know, customers have long memories, so it's counterproductive in the long run. A couple of the CEOs we're working with at the moment have shared some of their strategies. So I just want to give you a quick outline of those because I think there are two approaches that are really, really good. So one of them is a manufacturing client that I have, and I was talking to him the other day and he said, you know, customers that they Service, it's a B2B business. They have visibility of inputs. So the pricing model they've signed up to gives them real clarity around where the costs are. And so because they understand the cost structures, when price rises come through, they can notify the customers of what those input costs are. Now, in this case, that CEO has been able to negotiate a temporary pass through of some of the inputs that they've had to suck up a 40, 50, 60, 70% increase in. So that's been really good. But they've been able to do it in a way where they've said to their customers, we're going to absorb some of these costs. We don't expect you to wear the total hit on this margin. We're going to take some of the pain ourselves. And so we're going to do that. We'll do it open book so that you can see what's happening, and we're going to pass some of it through to you. So they had sufficient margin already to help them through the problem, but they were very clear on sharing the pain between them and their customers, which I thought was a really, really good approach. And they lost no skin from having that conversation with their customers. And it's protected their business to the extent that, yes, they'll take a little bit hit on margin, but they're going to be okay. So that's a good customer relationship. The second CEO who's in the construction sector came up with a great approach, which I think, you know, when we talk about mastering ambiguity, we say that in times of great uncertainty, there's a lot of opportunity, there's a lot of open ground to run in. And if you can steal a competitive march on the other players in your business, it's these times where you're going to be able to do it. So fuel's going through the roof, right? And this CEO dropped me an email to ask my opinion on this. And I'll just read it. It's super interesting. He said, all of my suppliers are putting up their prices with some very questionable percentage increases, I might add. I can only imag imagine lots of trade contractors are doing the same with everyone out to make a bucket using the excuse of global oil prices. But while people are panicking and everyone else is passing through cost increases and then some, they'll be looking for a safe port in the storm, someone who's not trying to gouge them. So I figured this is the perfect time to hold the line as long as possible with our prices and to make a play for new clients who were looking for a better partner to work with. So he sent an email out to all his company's clients to confirm that they would be honouring all their contracts and quotes and that for now, they'd hold their published rates. And I thought that was just such a good way to drive loyalty and to open up the door for new customer acquisition, because they were going to be very explicit about the fact that everyone else is going to have a crack at you. We're not. We're here for the long term. So those two CEOs, fantastic work. You know who you are, fellas? Fantastic work. And really good to see these people doing that type of work and leading their company so well in this time of such uncertainty.
- [25:39]
B
What about for employees? Because this is another conversation that we've had with some of our CEO clients about, you know, what they can do or what they plan to do for their employees. Employees. Have you got any thoughts on that? Because this is, you know, this is the stuff that people are dealing with, like, every single day right now. And there's pressure.
- [26:01]
A
There is, yes. And I. And I think it's been really good. So some people say you got to ask your staff to work from home. Well, for a start, it's stupid. And for a second thing, it's not going to meet operational requirements in a lot of companies.
- [26:17]
B
That's what you guys get when you listen to no leadership. Sorry if this is your first podcast episode with us, but this is what you can get used to.
- [26:28]
A
Politicians telling business people to make their staff work from home. Idiots.
- [26:32]
B
No, no, bueno.
- [26:33]
A
Let's. Let's not dwell on that too long. Let's not dwell on that. No, but, but what I will say is that some of our, some of our guys have come to us and said, you know, look, should I offer my staff some sort of relief? Because, you know, they're going out to sites, they're driving around, they're using their own petrol, what should we do? And most of them have sort of said that with the desire to help ease the burden on their people but also being very mindful of the fact they don't want to set a precedent and they don't want to set as an expectation and an entitlement. So using some sort of time bounded subsidy I think is basically where I settle with a lot of them to say, look, we understand that things are tougher than at the moment. Fuel prices are really high, they won't return for quite some time. So in the meantime we're going to give you some relief with this allowance each week to help you out with your petrol costs. And I think that's just a really nice thing that doesn't cost a company a lot but it makes a huge difference to the employee and it really boosts loyalty.
- [27:33]
B
All right, that's awesome, Marty. We covered a lot of ground tonight. Thank you for imparting your wisdom again in a Q and A and having me on board. I really hope that that was useful for a lot of you in terms of making those trade offs and making difficult decisions. When the answers are not clear, which you know, most of leadership, they're not clear. We have to work our way through them. So yeah, Marty, thanks for having me on and looking forward to being on in another few months. Why don't you wrap it up?
- [28:03]
A
Great to have you em, really appreciate it. So that brings us to the end of episode 397. I really hope you enjoyed it. But as I'm sure you know, listening is easy, leading is hard. That's why we created Leadership beyond the Theory, our flagship program that turns insight into action and action into results. This is where we unlock the secrets of elite leadership performance and give you the tools that you need to make even the toughest trade offs. I'm really looking forward to next week's episode. Champions do more. Until then, I know you'll take every opportunity you can to be a no bullshit.